Saiga .308 vs AR10


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noob_shooter
April 24, 2009, 02:23 AM
You guys think it would be a wise idea to trade/sell my 22" saiga 308 non-converted for an Armalite AR10 and pay the difference?

Pros? cons?
AR10 maybe more accurate but less reliable than saiga 308.. major trade off.. does it jam as bad as AR15's?


Never fired an AR10 before in my life, but they look pretty cool. No, i dont want an AR15. I want the AR10 because it shoots 308 win

or wait.. would an PTR and FAL better than the AR10?

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Kind of Blued
April 24, 2009, 03:09 AM
AR-10s are reeeeally expensive lately. I'd probably wait a while, and buy one later for the same price you would now including the Saiga trade.

Davionmaximus
April 24, 2009, 07:21 AM
I have the DPMS 10. Accurate and reliable. I think the whole 'reliablilty' thing is a myth...I have never had an ounce of trouble with any AR, but that is probably because I CLEAN MY GUNS...

4Freedom
April 24, 2009, 07:21 AM
I have an AR10 and just got my newly converted Saiga 308 today. I really like the Saiga 308 because its a different beast and has the AK reliability. Not as prone to jamming, picky with ammo, require fervent cleaning. etc.. That being said, I am sure most AR10s can shoot tighter groups at farther distances than Saiga 308. Of course that is if both guns are being shot with a person who can shoot each gun equally. Well, I am not experienced with either gun, but I wanted one commie gun in my collection, so I choose a converted Saiga 308.

think the whole 'reliablilty' thing is a myth...I have never had an ounce of trouble with any AR, but that is probably because I CLEAN MY GUNS
Maybe a myth? But try being out in the jungle in combat for 4 months without any cleaning tools and see which one will perform better by the end of that time period.

W L Johnson
April 24, 2009, 08:44 AM
AR10 maybe more accurate but less reliable than saiga 308.. major trade off.. does it jam as bad as AR15's?

Funny thing, my saiga 7.62x39 has jammed more times than all 7 of my ARs combined, which is two times now (the saiga). And that includes 2 Armalite AR-10s. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

jpcolt76
April 24, 2009, 09:21 AM
I had 2 Saiga 308's and got bored with them after awhile. Never found a scope mount that I liked for them either. I have an AR10 and it is an awesome beast to scope and shoot. There is a world of difference between the feeling you get holding them. I have seen Saigas here for $750.00! They are not worth that but that place has $1400 Bushy A2 rifles too! GO AR if you want a great scoped semi 308.

W L Johnson
April 24, 2009, 10:19 AM
I have seen Saigas here for $750.00!

Been seeing them around the Louisville area for about $500.

Paid $1050 for my Armalite 20" AR-10 new with scope mount about 13 months ago, saw the same model without mount go for $2800:what: on gunbroker about a month ago.

quatin
April 24, 2009, 02:02 PM
Maybe a myth? But try being out in the jungle in combat for 4 months without any cleaning tools and see which one will perform better by the end of that time period.

Man, I don't know what you guys do when you go to the range, but for daily range trips I doubt you would see any difference.

It depends on what you want to do. I bought a 16'' saiga 308 to have a hard hitting carbine. If I really wanted to reach out at 500-600 yards with a 20''+ barrel I would have gone with an AR-10. A FAL, although a nice rifle will not have the accuracy reputation of an AR-10 either.

Lazuris
April 24, 2009, 02:14 PM
not a big fan of the AR-10 "armalite" as they use only their own mags. You can't use the DPMS mags which are way cheaper.

WardenWolf
April 24, 2009, 02:30 PM
The Saiga makes a better survival rifle, as it will keep working longer under adverse conditions. However, in terms of accuracy and short-term reliability, there's absolutely no difference.

kentucky_smith
April 24, 2009, 03:28 PM
Fn fal :d

UnTainted
April 24, 2009, 04:13 PM
Armalite has enhanced their feed ramp system in their .308 ar.

W L Johnson
April 24, 2009, 04:31 PM
You can't use the DPMS mags which are way cheaper.
:confused:
Just checked on both websites
DPMS 19rd 308 - $44.95
Armalite 20rd 308 - $44.95

+ Armalite has the 25rd ones at $53

Both are way too expensive in my book.

LogicGS
April 24, 2009, 04:55 PM
I think the whole 'reliablilty' thing is a myth...I have never had an ounce of trouble with any AR

I believe you are correct. I read this forum and think to myself, "Am I the only guy in the world who's AR's function properly every time I fire them?"

I think the reliability thing is mostly hot air that people spout to justify their purchase of an AK platform rifle, 'cause come on, what else have those rattle traps got going for them? ;)

Personally, I see no reason to own a .308 rifle that you cannot reliably hit a softball with at 100 yds, so I will not own any of the AK variants.

not a big fan of the AR-10 "armalite" as they use only their own mags. You can't use the DPMS mags which are way cheaper.

I will never understand this notion. Even if the mags were 2X as expensive (which they aren't), how many tens of thousands of dollars worth of ammo would you have to shoot through your $1,500+ rifle in order to wear out $400 worth of magazines?

Armalite had standard loadouts of (5) 20 rnd or (5) 25 rnd mags for $200 last year. That's $40 a piece, BFD, every brand of 308AR mag costs about that much. They are not 1/2 the price of Armalite's mags, and I dare say that Armalite's magazines are better built than the competition, so they'll last longer to boot.

It just seems like such a petty and retarded reason to dismiss an entire product line of damned fine rifles. Again, I think it's mostly looking for nits to pick.

If you want to talk about short comings, how about build quality. I have shot both Armalite and DPMS .308AR's and the Armalite is head and shoulders the better fit up rifle. Better finish on the parts, better fit of the parts, and better function of the rifle (which a lot of folks attribute to their new revamped and "overpriced" magazines ;) ).

To each his own, I guess, but it wouldn't even be a question for me.

Ben Shepherd
April 24, 2009, 05:21 PM
Very simple choice here-

Do you want a rifle possibly capable of MOA or not?

Both take semi rare mags that don't fit anything else. Both are reliable with good ammo. Both are effective to 300+ yards with iron sights. If you feel the need to be effective past 300, go AR10 with a scope. If not, the Saiga will be just as effective to the 300 yard mark.

The only other thing you need to consider is ergonomics. Which do YOU prefer, AR or AK?

Answer those two questions honestly, and you'll know which rifle you need.

quatin
April 24, 2009, 06:19 PM
I believe you are correct. I read this forum and think to myself, "Am I the only guy in the world who's AR's function properly every time I fire them?"

I think the reliability thing is mostly hot air that people spout to justify their purchase of an AK platform rifle, 'cause come on, what else have those rattle traps got going for them?

Personally, I see no reason to own a .308 rifle that you cannot reliably hit a softball with at 100 yds, so I will not own any of the AK variants.

You haven't really used your AR then. A range trip every weekend is not what we are talking about when we say "AKs are more reliable than ARs". However, when this subject comes up you really have to ask yourself if you'll ever be in a situation where you'll be abusing your rifle to the point where this makes a difference.

Saiga 308s out of the box can hit softballs all day at 100 yards. If you don't buy a quality AK and don't feed it good ammo, how would you expect it to hit? Everytime someone asks AK accuracy, there's a plaster of "My WASR-10s can hit paper plates at 50 yards with Wolf." and people somehow take that as a benchmark for all AKs.

W L Johnson
April 24, 2009, 07:18 PM
Saiga 308s out of the box can hit softballs all day at 100 yards.

Ok... Now try that at 500 or 600 yards vs an Armalite. The Saiga is a short range shooter and the Armalite a long range shooter.

As as far as jamming my Saiga has jammed, my Armalite AR-10s have not. But to be fair to the saiga I think it was ammo related, but the AR-10 is not a jam-o-matic.

LogicGS
April 24, 2009, 07:22 PM
You haven't really used your AR then. A range trip every weekend is not what we are talking about when we say "AKs are more reliable than ARs".

Well, I live in Missouri.

We have woods and fields and hills, not jungle and rainforest.

I'm also not in a war zone, so I can go home and clean my rifle when I'm done slaying paper and tin cans (or critters).

I'll tell you this though, we've had multiple years of war in sandy and ****ty conditions, and somehow the troops carrying M4's and M16's manage to keep them functioning and fighting.

I had a buddy who wanted to run a torture test on his DPMS M4 knockoff. Didn't clean it for a year, at least a thousand rounds, and that rifle didn't cough once. Covered in carbon and crud in general, but it just kept running and running.

Obviously we don't have blowing sand in MO, but we've got dirt same as everywhere else, and it ate it just fine.

I'd never do something like that to my Armalite, just because I take pride in taking good care of my weapons, but I don't doubt that it could handle it.

I dunno, maybe I just have the touch. :D

Perhaps it's like lions or tigers or whatever. If the rifle smells your fear of malfunctions, it strikes! lol

I'm an engineer, machinist, and gunsmith. The rifle knows I don't fear malfunctions or break downs, so it doesn't even bother. ;)

MD_Willington
April 24, 2009, 08:03 PM
Funny thing, my saiga 7.62x39 has jammed more times than all 7 of my ARs combined, which is two times now (the saiga). And that includes 2 Armalite AR-10s. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.


I've had the opposite, a coworker has 4 AR's, one of which after all the bells and whistles was $4000...

They all jammed up pretty good...

My Saiga .223 on the other hand rattled off 50 rounds without a single stoppage with cheap old nasty Russian .223.

LogicGS
April 24, 2009, 08:17 PM
Are you saying that none of four (4) AR15's would fire fifty (50) consecutive rounds without a stoppage?

I don't see how that's even possible, especially with quality firearms.

Were you using clapped out magazines? You know they do wear out eventually, right?

I still find that hard to believe.

If that truly is the case, why do these fellows not affect some remedy?

I would not own a rifle that wouldn't cycle even two full magazines without a stoppage. That's ridiculous.

If I were to come into possession of such a device, I would not simply tolerate the malfunctions as "part of the design" (which they are not), I would fix the damned thing.

Firearms are machines, not voodoo totems. Anything they do can be explained in mechanical terms. Anything they do wrong can be tracked down to a cause, which can then be remedied.

W L Johnson
April 24, 2009, 09:26 PM
My Saiga .223 on the other hand rattled off 50 rounds
50 rds is just starting to get the barrel warm. Sorry that's not a test.

But seriously, 4 ARs and they all "jammed up pretty good"? Somethings not right there. My guess would be crap ammo or mags.

I should note that I do have 2 AK type guns, the Saiga and a Mak-90. I also have an VZ-58 which some people confuse with an AK.

Now one of my ARs is an AR-180b which for those who don't know is another Armalite design which came out after the AR-15 as the AR-18 which was full auto and the AR-180b is the semi version. It's like an AR and an AK got together one night and after a few drinks, well you know the rest . There are aspects of it which I like better than an AR-15 or an AK.

M1key
April 24, 2009, 10:43 PM
Keep the Saiga. Spend the money you save on mags and ammo.

Saigas are capable of much better than "softball" sized groups. Try sub-MOA with the right ammo out to 300 meters...

The left is LC 173 Match...right target is Aussie ball @100 yds...

LogicGS
April 24, 2009, 11:09 PM
Then the Saiga must be a great deal tighter than other AK's.

I've shot both Chinese and Yugoslavian AK's that would not hold a pattern smaller than 8" at 100 yds.

Now, this of course brings the next question: If the Saiga is so much tighter that it groups like this, what makes it so much more "reliable" than an AR platform?

I mean, the old tenant has always been that the AK is loose and therefore harder to foul to the point of malfunction. This costs in repeatability.

Now, if you make an AK that repeats like an AR, it is necessarily much tighter than the old "dump a bucket of sand into the ejection port and shoot a case" AK. How then can it still be as reliable?

We're into a cake/eat-it-too situation here.

Now, that all said, I do not doubt that it shot that group.

What I doubt is that it can do that and still be the uber-reliable rattle trap that AK lovers worship.

Ben Shepherd
April 24, 2009, 11:50 PM
Logic-

Saigas are NEW guns, not cobbled together parts kits, and they are made in the original factory. They also have the benefit of having all the improvements that the AK family has had over the years. I own several, and have fired about 2 dozen others that belong to others I shoot with- I love 'em.

One of my my 223 siagas put 12 rounds of S&B green tip into a single hole that was covered by a 1/2 inch target patch sticker just last weekend. No glass, just the standard AK sights. With glass and magnification, I've no doubt it'll hold under 2 inches at 100. My 308 saiga? The factory test fire group puts it at just under 2" @100. I haven't duplicated that yet.(Can't afford the scope at the moment:scrutiny::() But I fired 2 others that were scoped that did indeed hold under 2 inches @100 for a 5 shot group.

The key? Use good ammo! Wolf black box won't cut it. It's fine for plinking, but I've tried to get it under 3" at 100 in 4 different 223s now that shoot well under an inch with match ammo. Hasn't happened yet. As far as 308? Tried some in my Ruger M77 with similar results. Looks like you'd expect a good 00 buck load to look like at 30 yards.

Reliability? Both 223 siagas I have are over the 5,000 round mark easily. Exactly 1 malfunction that was ammo related. So, IME, they do just fine.

JWarren
April 25, 2009, 12:13 AM
I used to have a converted Saiga 308. I loved the rifle for what it was. I never had a misfire, and it shot with any ammunition that I used.

Now listen... the Saiga 308 IS a good rifle. However, you will NEVER get the accuracy out of a Saiga 308 that you can get out of a 308 AR. I attempted and I did get good accuracy out of the Saiga, but not what I have come to accept out of any hunting rifle that I have ever owned.

I sold mine a couple years ago and I have settled on the DPMS LR-308B that I have customized to my liking.


Insomuch as the Saiga is a reliable rifle, for what I need out of a .308, it did not perform to my standards.



EDIT:

I forgot to mention that the offset rail optics mount on the Saiga makes it very difficult to fire the rifle with an optic left-handed. While I naturally shoot right-handed, I'd had to take many shots while hunting off the left shoulder. You can forget it using a Saiga. This nasty little fact cost me more than one shot.

-- John

LogicGS
April 25, 2009, 12:31 AM
Saigas are NEW guns, not cobbled together parts kits, and they are made in the original factory.

Ya think?

That's just what I said. To shoot like that, they have to be tighter.

You cannot decrease clearance inside the weapon and maintain the ability to digest sand and mud with no effect.

The rifle is either loose and insensitive to grit, or tight and repeatable.

You can't have both, not matter how new the design is.

Like I said, firearms are machines, there is no voodoo or mystery involved.

Ben Shepherd
April 25, 2009, 12:40 AM
Logic-

They are tight(for an AK). But IMNSHO, they haven't been tightened up to the point that they lose the AK reliability.

Had they been, we would be talking about group sizes rivaling the AR10. We're not. We're talking a 2 MOA AK at best.

JWarren
April 25, 2009, 12:43 AM
Gotta agree with Ben on this one....

A Saiga is probably going to be the most accurate AK that you will EVER own.

While I am out of the AK world these days, if I ever get another AK, you damned well better believe it will be a Saiga.


-- John

4Freedom
April 25, 2009, 01:09 AM
I just got my newly converted Saiga 308 from the gunsmith yesterday. SO please nobody rag on Saiga 308s too hard :(. I just wanted to have one communist member to my family of patriotic American guns. Yeah, perhaps it was just the eastern evil appeal of the gun why I had to get a Russian Kalashnikov. As far as it being as accurate as my ARs, I doubt it from the endless amount of reading I have done. However, I think if a zombie attack ever happened and I hadto run into the woods to survive, I take that Saiga 308 over my DPMS 308.

Somebody here mentioned you cannot shoot the Saiga 308 left handed with an optic. Can anyone else back up this claim? I am right-handed, but left-eye dominated. I suppose if I cannot use an optic, I would be best to shoot it right handed with a red dot sight or something. Can anyone give me their opinions the best way to shoot the Saiga 308 left-handed with an optic?

elmerfudd
April 25, 2009, 01:24 AM
I've got 4 Saiga rifles right now and I find they all shoot about 2 MOA.

Ben Shepherd
April 25, 2009, 01:24 AM
I'm a lefty, and can shoot them OK with glass, but the cheek weld isn't the best.

JWarren
April 25, 2009, 01:25 AM
4Freedom,

Please don't take my posts as "ragging" the Saiga. I love them. You mentioned that you have a DPMS LR-308... so you know the accuracy you can expect out of those. If one hopes for that kind of accuracy out of the Saiga with all things being equal (optics, bench, etc.), they will be disappointed.

If you have realistic expectations for the Saiga based upon any other experiences with the AK platform, you will find that your expectations will be surpassed.

The 308 AR is in a "special" that not many "EBRs" get to share in terms of accuracy. The accurized M1A is there, so are some of the PTR-91's out there. I had an HK-91 that I was very happy with in terms of accuracy.

I'll agree with you that the Saiga 308 will likely stand up to far more abuse than any AR, and that is a huge selling point. Being the kind of guy I am with accuracy expectations however, I wasn't willing to trade off for it.

As has been mentioned here before, somehow our guys in Iraq and Afganistan seem to be making it with the AR platform, so I'll OK with it.


As for optics and left-handed shooting...

It IS possible to shoot the scoped Saiga 308 left-handed. I just found it excessively difficult and uncomfortable to do so. The problem lies in the fact that the optic is not centered over the bore of on the Saiga. It sets slightly offset to the left side of the bore. When attempting to fire off the left shoulder, you find that you have to "reach" with your head to get to the optic.

I've no idea if that will be different with a Red-dot type optic like the Kobra reflex sight. I didn't have much need for a reflex sight on a 308.

Again, don't think I'm coming down on the Saiga. It is a solid rifle, but not one without its quirks and limitations-- like any rifle.


Back when I was a stockbroker, we used to say that there's no such thing as a 35% Interest CD (well, outside of the Carter Administration anyway :) )


But the same principle applies... Everything has trade-offs. I'd say that you have your bases covered.


-- John

LogicGS
April 25, 2009, 01:41 AM
They are tight(for an AK). But IMNSHO, they haven't been tightened up to the point that they lose the AK reliability.

Had they been, we would be talking about group sizes rivaling the AR10. We're not. We're talking a 2 MOA AK at best.

OK, now we're getting somewhere.

I've never owned a Saiga, so I'll take your word on it being the hands down best shooter of the AK world.

I guess in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. ;)

Every AK that has ever passed through my hands has been 6-8 MOA at best. The things were like shotguns that sent their buck shot one pellet at a time. Just not my bag.

I'll leave the argument at that, except to say to the OP that if you can't decide between and AR and an AK, you'd better shoot both for a while to find out. I don't want to say they're like oil and water, 'cause they can mix, but it's been my experience that people either like one or the other. They may own both, but they'll dote on their favorite and leave the other in the safe.

Ben Shepherd
April 25, 2009, 01:48 AM
Logic-

With steel cased commie elcheapo ammo, they are only about a 4 inch gun. You have to feed them good(expensive) ammo if you expect better groups. I will admit after I get them zeroed with good ammo, they rarely see much more of it. I reload, and like all AKs, they just TRASH the brass unless you soften the charging handle up and put a guard strip on the receiver cover. That isn't for me. I just shoot 'em with the steel cased ammo they were designed for.

M1key
April 25, 2009, 01:49 AM
+1 on cheaper steel-cased ammo...the main reason I own Saigas in each caliber. I would also look hard at ones in 5.45 and 54R...which are supposed to be imported sometime this year.

Saigas have a cast-off stock which is great for righties...but makes it difficult for left-handed shooters. Try a straight aftermarket butt stock like one of the Aces. Also the scope mounts are a bit problematic when trying to get the scopes mounted over the axis of the bore. But, it is do-able with a little shim work.

JWarren
April 25, 2009, 01:58 AM
M1key wrote:


Saigas have a cast-off stock which is great for righties...but makes it difficult for left-handed shooters. Try a straight aftermarket butt stock like one of the Aces. Also the scope mounts are a bit problematic when trying to get the scopes mounted over the axis of the bore. But, it is do-able with a little shim work.


I had an ACE stock on mine. It was my experience that the stock never was an issue with when I shot it left-handed-- it was that PSOP optics mount.

How did you shim your mount? My experiece the the PSOP mount was that you slid it into the slot and locked it down. I can't see any way that it could have been shimmed-- although I admit that I may have well missed something obvious.


Here it the one that I used to own:


http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w184/JDWarren2/Saiga308Conversion.jpg




-- John

M1key
April 25, 2009, 12:34 PM
Washers under the screws...

I use the low profile Belarus mounts, though some of them are hit or miss as far as alignment goes.

MD_Willington
April 25, 2009, 02:49 PM
Seriously, yes his rifles jammed up pretty good
First we used M855
Wolf .223 <-- I know dirty for an AR
Silver Bear .223 <-- dirty too

Something was definitely wrong with his AR's as the M855 didn't run smooth to begin with.

My Saiga, generally referred to as my "Russian Metal Regurgitator" handled the following:
LC M855
Barnual-JSC 5.56x45
Wolf .223
Silver Bear .223
HSM JHP and JSP .223

It didn't have a problem.

The ammo was in Bulgarian 5.56x45 AK magazines and a loose Galil magazine

WardenWolf
April 25, 2009, 04:05 PM
MD, I suspect his problem was that he'd been shooting a lot of steel cased Wolf and didn't use a chamber brush on his chamber, and had just done a standard cleaning after previous shoots. Steel cased ammo doesn't expand to seal the chamber, so carbon fouling gets in there and seals it instead. This shrinks the chamber, which makes brass get stuck. Don't mix steel and brass without cleaning in between. It's a bad idea, and hard on the gun. Wolf isn't really dirty in smaller calibers, so that's not really the culprit. It only gets nasty with some of their large rifle calibers like 7.62x54R.

My honest opinion is that you should own at least one AK. They're better long-term survival guns than most other designs. The reason Saigas are more accurate is because the overall tolerances are tighter, but not in the areas that affect reliability. The most important parts of an AK are the gas piston and the star-shaped gas tube. The star-shaped gas tube is critical because it reduces points of contact with the piston head and creates channels for fouling to fall into so it will not interfere with the weapon's operation. This allows limited blowby, but not enough to reach the receiver. Because this system keeps the fouling out of the receiver, you can produce the rest of the gun to tighter tolerances and still maintain legendary reliability. Incidentally, that's the failing point of most piston AR's: they fail to take into account that some parts don't need to be, and in fact shouldn't be, precision pieces for the rest of the gun to perform just the same. If they took this into account, the AR could approach AK reliability.

Davionmaximus
April 25, 2009, 04:53 PM
The AR "reliability" issue can be solved with a 500 buck aftermarket gas piston-pushrod kit. They are available. This kit allows no blow by to reach the chamber.
Makes the AR as reliable and the AK. But the AK will never be as accurate at range as the AR.

WardenWolf
April 25, 2009, 05:10 PM
And yet to accomplish "no blowby", they have just fallen into the same trap I just mentioned. The area around the piston is too tight. You want some blowby of the piston head to allow for carbon buildup in the gas tube, but not so far as reaching the receiver. And I just love how something so common sense costs $500, which is $150 more than I paid for my whole Saiga .223 in the first place.

W L Johnson
April 25, 2009, 05:21 PM
And I just love how something so common sense costs $500, which is $150 more than I paid for my whole Saiga .223 in the first place.

That's $300 more than I paid for my saiga. :neener: And only $200 less than I paid for an NIB Armalite AR-180b which is AR type with a piston-pushrod build in from the start. Armalite designed these back in the 60s in the form of the AR-18 but the military passed on it.

Ironwings
December 30, 2012, 05:53 PM
I am new to this sight but not to shooting and firearms. I have over 31 years in the military and have been shooting since I was a boy. I own two Saiga's one in 7.63x39 and a rescently purchased 308. I like the saiga as you get the most for the money and they are very reliable and accurate at close to medium range. I can shoot below 2 inch groups with the 7.62x39 at 100 yards, now the 308 I have not shot yet. As for the AR, what can you say, many years of shooting it and I always qualified expert with it back when I shot it for work. They are outstanding rifles and I love shooting them. But to me, I believe they are in different classes. It comes down to money and what you get out of the box before any mods. I just enjoy shooting now and the Saiga is very much an enjoyable rifle to have fun with on the range and very inexpensive compared to an AR. Some may say you get what you pay for, I believe this but you can with some good homework realize the Saiga is a bargain, not bar far means the best rifle. But if I would put the kind of money into it as some of my friends and co workers have in there I am sure the saiga would compete very well. Now for long range accuracy I prefer a bolt action myself, it just fits me well. I also know this thread is old, but just incase anyone reads it.

d2wing
December 30, 2012, 10:10 PM
My Saiga is fun to shoot, for accuracy is much better than a surplus AK. Which means once in awhile with a scope I can get a 3 inch group at 100 yards. I had problems with feeding until I bought and installed a feed ramp kit. You may get a rare 2 inch group out of one. AR s typically shoot 2 MOA or better.
For actual use, I would just as soon get either a Remington 750, or Browning
BAR. I like tactical rifles but for hunting, a tradition stock is much better for me.

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