[Ginormous]

Well, I had my first BP multiple discharge with my Uberti 1848 1st Model Dragoon. Scared the heck out of me! Gun and shooter survived relatively intact.

Basically, I was shooting paper targets in the sis' back 40, and had fired one round out of a fresh cylinder when the lights went out in Georgia. To the best of my post mortem skills, I'm guessing a percussion cap simply fell off an adjacent nipple. The next shot was a humdinger! Wha-BAM! Two distinct discharges, one was a solid thump and the other occurred within milliseconds of the first. That one was well, warmish. The discharged cylinder was the second to the left of the cylinder in battery, leaving a perfectly good cylinder loaded up in between. No damage to the gun, although the wedge appeared whacked by the ball. Never found the ball, but I wasn't looking very hard either. I was just glad to have all my parts intact, save for a few minor burns.

Loads were warmish, with 35 gr Swiss BP, RWS 1075 caps seated (or so I thought) with a wooden dowel, lube pill over powder and under a .457 144 gr Speer swagged round ball.

Gun still looks like new, wedge was pushed forward slightly, and the lead ball residue cleaned right off the bluing.

Hand didn't clean up quite so well, but given time, it will return to its' normal well used appearance. :D Singed finger hair and some tender medium rare flash burns were my only marks. Bonus points given for correctly guessing which hand I shoot with. :neener:

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/DSCF1107.jpg

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/DSCF1106.jpg

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/DSCF1103.jpg

[AdmiralB]

I bought a couple packs of the RWS caps...I love the performance, they seem a LOT hotter than CCI or Remington...but they don't really fit any of my guns very well. I have to pinch them pretty severely and I've still had some fall off.

The woeful consistency of nipple sizes on my guns doesn't help. I've gone back to Remington #10s, for use after the RWS are gone, and I'll probably get some aftermarket nipples.

[Ginormous]

Tresso Ampco nipples seem to be all the rage. Cheap insurance if it prevents this from happening even once to anyone. Not to mention, allegedly improved ignition, more durable bronze construction, as well as another reason to play with and fondle my guns. :D

Anyone know the thread count and diameter for these nipples to fit a Uberti 1st Model Dragoon, and a Uberti 1858 Remington? They are definitely different sizes.

[AdmiralB]

http://www.possibleshop.com/nipples.htm

11-50-166 is the set for the Rem/Colt Ubertis...11-50-136 for the Walker/Dragoon.

My Walker has the tiny nipples, but my Dragoon fits the RWS *reasonably* well...and they're supposedly the same things.

My 1860 has small nipples, but the spare cylinder I bought has bigger ones...go figure.

[Ginormous]

Thanks AdmiralB! Approx $50 plus shipping for both guns is cheapish. Heck, it's not that much more than what I spent on aloe gel, Solarcaine, Second Skin dressings, and a couple of other items to cool the burn. The only things that really helped were the Solarcaine and generic OTC lidocaine ointment. The rest was to keep the darned burns hidden, with healing a secondary consideration.

I'd forgotten how much even mild burns hurt. Ouch!

[scrat]

Ginormous glad to hear you ok.

[Ginormous]

Thanks scrat, me too, heh.

Right after the discharge, I immediately laid the pistol on the ground, and backed up from it doubletime, expecting at any moment for it to erupt into something even more malevolent and painful.

From a distance I am sure it looked like I was retreating from a rattlesnake or some other unholy menace. I wasn't going for style points here at all. I only wanted to see that my 5 fingers were mostly still attached in the same configuration as before, or at least reattachable, and that there was no huge gaping hole in my foot or leg gushing my life away. Oh, that and someplace to hide if the Dragoon continued shooting on its' own.

[ClemBert]

Ditto that...glad to hear you are still with us. I guess your day of shootin' that sucker came to an abrupt end.

[DrLaw]

You shoot left-handed.

All right thinking people shoot right-handed as if they didn't they'd be left. :neener:

You probably made some sort of left-hander mistake, like putting powder on top of ball, or wad over cap over ball over powder or over ball over powder follwed by cap then wad or bore butter or bore butter on bread with jelly or any of the other mistakes a left-hander could make. :evil:

Now just shoot right handed and everything will be okay! :uhoh:

The Doc is out and glad to help. :cool::rolleyes:

[Ginormous]

Thanks ClemBert. Yes it did, VERY abruptly. :)

Okay, that's +1 for Dr. Law for guessing correctly my left handedness. But I am detracting -2 for his blasphemy and defamation of those of use who know for a fact that the sinister side is the only right* side to shoot from. Those of the dexter persuasion are unfortunately handicapped, and really do deserve our pity and understanding. ;)

*as in correct

[AdmiralB]

You probably made some sort of left-hander mistake, like putting powder on top of ball, or wad over cap over ball over powder or over ball over powder follwed by cap then wad or bore butter or bore butter on bread with jelly


I am reminded of the Tweety Bird cartoon where Sylvester is repeatedly shot while loading a rifle..."NOW I remember, FIRST the powder, THEN the bullet"....

[Ginormous]

"First the wadding, then the shots, then the powder. Packit down good and....BLAM!!"

"Wait! Wait! I know what I did wrong! First the shots, then the powder, then the wadding. Pack it down good and...BLAM!!"

Hahaha, that is a Looney Tunes classic!

[AussieTH]

To change the thrust a little, but still stay on topic, how many of you use gloves when shooting?

I use military surplus nomax flying gloves. They are not flame proof but are flame resistant. They give me protection to about a third of the way up my forearm so the coverage is good and would have prevented the burns that Ginormous received.

The gloves have very thin, soft leather ‘inners’ and the nomax fabric outers. They are skin tight and almost a second skin with non-slip qualities and a highly tactile feel that enables (by original purpose) handling small switches and buttons in cockpits plus enable you to keep functioning for a time in the event of fire in the cockpit.

They are not cheap but are good insurance plus enable you to do most things with the gun while still wearing them.

[mykeal]

Nomex is the registered trade mark of Dupont Co., the patent holder and manufacturer of the flame resistant fabric that is required as the material used in race car crew and driver clothing

[MCgunner]

Well, my home made caps seem to fit okay. That's pretty scary right there. I've been shooting over 35 years with cap and ball and, knock on wood, I've avoided this.

[Ginormous]

Nomex or Kevlar gloves might not be a bad idea. I'd prefer the percussion caps stayed put, but failing that, a suitable pair of gloves could provide a significant margin of burn safety.

A big plus would be if the gloves looked cool, and had a mid-19th century feel about them. Similar to cattleman's range gloves perhaps.

[bigbadgun]

Hey Gin glad to see you still have all your fingers after something like I bet you counted them. Glad your ok.

[Voodoochile]

Well at least you've left the situation with only minor wounding, some of which can be fixed up with some good 15 year single malt glenmorangie.

The last Chain Fire I had was in 1990 from my 3rd model Dragoon & outside of me having to check my pride behind a big tree I come out of it un-scathed.

[Smokin_Gun]

Bonus points given for correctly guessing which hand I shoot with.

Looks like it will be with the right hand for a spell :O)
Great report on Aft Chain Fire ...

[Smokin_Gun]

All right thinking people shoot right-handed as if they didn't they'd be left.

Sorry Doc but I gotta visit this statement... cause it ain't right.
It goes like this... The left and right lobes of the brain control the opposite sides of the body...so this means that left handed people are in their right mind. :cool:

[DrLaw]

SSShhhhhhhhh. :D

The Doc is sneaking out now. :cool:

[jim147]

A big plus would be if the gloves looked cool, and had a mid-19th century feel about them. Similar to cattleman's range gloves perhaps.
Try to find deer hide gloves. Not as much protection as Nomex but will save you from the smaller burns and are very soft. They have great "feel". My grandfather used to sell them but he has been gone a lot of years. I don't know where you can find any now. If you find some let me know. I'm on my last pair.

Glad to hear your OK.

jim

[husker]

glad your ok!! scary man. scary

[DrLaw]

Hey Gin glad to see you still have all your fingers after something like I bet you counted them.

If he counted them, he probably would go from right to left, and chances are, being a lefty, he would get a wrong number. That might scare him, so I bet he did not count them. :neener:

I don't know about gloves, unless they are pretty thin, as those trigger guards can be pretty small (at least for my fat fingers). :rolleyes:

The Doc is out now. :cool:

[Ginormous]

Darned right I started counting right to left! I always start counting from the most important to least important where fingers are concerned. :D Fortunately, it's not too often that I am concerned as to their current location.

If it had been my right hand, I imagine the count would have been left to right!

Priorities, mein guter juris Rechtsanwalt, priorities. :neener:

[Ginormous]

Try to find deer hide gloves

Jim147, are these similar to what you are describing?

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/orvis_deerskin_gloves.jpg (http://www.orvis.com/store/productchoice.aspx?pf_id=877G&dir_id=1089&group_id=12008&cat_id=12009&subcat_id=12010&adv=12082&cm_mmc=Froogle*Prod_feeds*Prod_feeds*12082&CAWELAID=28708943&bhcp=1)

or

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/orvis_thin_gloves.jpg (http://www.orvis.com/store/productchoice.aspx?pf_id=611H&dir_id=1089&group_id=11888&cat_id=11889&subcat_id=11890)

Orvis makes some pretty cool looking gloves. (http://www.orvis.com/store/search_results.asp?release=3&offset=0&keyword=shooting%20gloves)

[madcratebuilder]

Glad you and the gun survived with only minor damage.
The nomex flight gloves do give you an excellent feel, the palm and inside of the fingers are a very soft, thin leather. They wear very well to, I have been using the same pair since 1967!

[Ginormous]

AussieTH an/or madcratebuilder, can one of you point me to the style of "flight gloves" you speak so highly of?

Everything I am Googling looks like something a U2 pilot would wear!

[madcratebuilder]

Here (http://www.omahas.com/product_info.php?cPath=7_80&products_id=332&osCsid=atp732s3kumtvg8scvf5c2v4v5) ya go.

[MCgunner]

I'm wondering how often this actually occurs? Like I say, I've been shooting cap and ball (not regularly, I admit) for 35 years and have never had it happen. I ain't lookin' forward to the first occurrence, I can tell ya that!

[DrLaw]

Modern learning. Had German language classes for 4 years in high school and 3 in college and I still had to look that up. :o

The Doc is humbled now. :cool:

[Ginormous]

madcratebuilder - thanks for link. Those are exactly like the ones I saw before. They do look like major overkill to me. Heh, i just cannot see that getup inspiring others to join me in my interests at the gun range. In fact, they may move DOWN a few lanes when i put those on! :what:

MCgunner - Once was enough! I am definitely getting the improved Tresso AMPCO nipples described by AdmiralB for both my guns. I'll turn them down if necessary to ge the proper fit. And I'm seriously considering wearing shooting gloves. Upon reflection, things could definitely have played out much worse.

DrLaw - hah! No need to be humbled, I cheated by using a German to English translation website. :neener:

[sltm1]

Ginormous, glad you weren't hurt more severely!!! I've only had one gun that ever chainfired, it was an older no-name brasser in 36cal. There was so much play in the cylinder that when shooing a round, a nipple got slammed back into the recoil shield in one spot. Like your's it was one away from the intended shot ball. Luckily though, I didn't have anything more serious than being startled happen to me. Do me a favor before you shoot it again....check for cylinder slop.

[Ginormous]

Good idea sltm1. I am looking at now, but everything seems to be fine, rotational play is nil, lateral play is nil, and cylinder shake fore to aft is nil.

I honestly think a cap fell off a nipple and some of the hot gasses were able to ignite the donkey's end of the now nekkid cylinder. Believe me, I have looked this gun over more in the past 2 days than in the entire 4 months I have owned it.

This Dragoon is still nice and tight, and it should be, it's had less than 300 rounds fired through it. Just a bare few were the 50 gr thunder boomer variety too. Most were in the lower to mid 30-40 gr range.

[mykeal]

Deleted:o

[AussieTH]

Hmmmm! I had not thought much about the appearance side. I am not really into that sort of thing and I wear the gloves all the time when flying so no longer really notice them. The gloves do not look quite so outlandish when being worn though.

I particularly like the extensive wrist protection that they give.

For those really into authenticity then take heart! An early 21st century burn looks exactly like a mid 19th century burn so you can be as authentic as all get out!

[Ginormous]

An early 21st century burn looks exactly like a mid 19th century burn so you can be as authentic as all get out!

That is perhaps the most compelling argument I have ever seen for wearing hand protection while firing BP weapons. Makes the decision easier when put that way.

Thanks AussieTH!

[AussieTH]

Yeah, well! Without trying to make a major drama out of all this – here are a few more ‘user views’ and some data.

The flying gloves are a foot long (30cm) from tip of middle finger to the cuff of the glove – so give a lot of coverage protection. I will try and arrange some ‘user pics’ but do not hold your breath as I currently have aircraft all over the place to work on.

I personally felt that hand protection was important. I do a lot of writing (typing technical manuals etc) so my hands remaining in good shape sort of helps make things happen. You also need hands for other purposes and mine are no longer crash hot to start with. I have had surgery on one and now need surgery on the other. I do not need more surgery caused by a ‘sporting interest’ and these early BP things are pretty wild affairs at the best of times.

I have now developed a passion for BP revolving carbines and so need the protection while I sort out a shooting stance for the ’58 Cattleman, Root revolving carbine and the new ‘Walker LRE’ – particularly the latter as the Walker is a damn big evil thing to start with and naturally will have to be fired at up to 60 grains (at least now and then) in the carbine version. There will be crap flying in all directions at the best of times without thinking of a chain fire!

Gin’s graphic photos demonstrate how far back the ‘event’ travels even on a straight revolver (albeit a Dragoon which is pretty big to start with).

So – stuff looks – I will hang onto my pinkies thanks!

[Ginormous]

Pics are always good AussieTH. Thanks for filling in the blanks on the Nomex flight gloves.

[husker]

i think their cool.

[jim147]

I looked today but couldn't find my pair of gloves.
The style looks more like the top pair but mine are very thin like the bottom pair look. The leather was worked to be very supple and left white. A pair that fits you hands let you pick up about anything and is no problem to get in and feel the trigger.

[Ginormous]

Well, until I find the perfect pair of gloves (and I will), my Mizuno Skintite golf glove will have to do.

Hopefully it helps my shooting handicap better than my golf handicap. :p

[krs]

Look in welding supply houses - they all sell nice looking deer or lambskin gloves for tig welding and they can be had in either regular length or guantlet lengths. Tig doesn't make high heat or spark levels so the gloves made for it can be thin and allow good dexterity. They'll protect but won't resist fire - seem to me almost the ideal solution here as many of them look pretty cool. That pun's for you :)

Tillman makes them, but there's nicer looking ones with their guantlets in the same material as the rest of the glove. Tig is a clean process so welders throw away contaminated gloves or use them for period weapon shooting if they are amongst us who know.....http://www.jtillman.com/products/?sid=3

They're so nice looking and soft and supple that I had to buy two pair in a the smallest size for my wife, who will never try tig welding out of her profound regard for things that make sparks and such.

These look nice - good enough for Errol Flynn....http://www.jtillman.com/products/?sid=8


For anyone who worries largely......http://www.jtillman.com/products/?SKU=5000 :D

[Ginormous]

Great idea krs. There are several welding supply houses nearby. I've added them to my places to look list. Thanks!

[Ginormous]

As a side note to all of this, it appears as though BP burns get a double whammy. Something from the combustion by products makes healing rather slow to occur, even though I've washed, soaked, and treated the burned areas with antibiotic ointment meticulously. I wont post a photo, but let's just say several layers of skin later, and there are . . . umm . . . really red, parts of the dermis showing. On the premise that the same acidic combustion by products that cause rust on guns in the presence of water are affecting my skin the same way, I'm going to try soaking the burned areas in a bicarbonate of soda bath to neutralize any remaining acids in the wounds.

What started out as a simple burn, may not be so simple after all.

If it continues this way, I suspect a doctor's visit is in order. Bummer.

Jeez, be careful out there, BP burns aren't fun at all. CHECK THOSE CAPS!!!

[Shotgun Willy]

Burns suck in a major way. Sorry to hear it's not healing very quickly.
I knew they made shooting gloves and with some googling I found quite a few. Some are full finger, some with kevlar, etc.. Here's a link to some half finger that might do the trick.
http://www.uscav.com/prod_8548_tabid_548_True%20Trade%20%20Finger%20Shooting%20Gloves

[Elbert P . Suggins]

I wear the Nomex gloves every day in my business of cropdusting and I use up a pair a year. The leather is soft and retains sensitive touch but they don't take kindly to any gas or oil contamination which ruins them. My daughter is in the Air Force so she sends them to me free..

[bigbadgun]

Back when I was a kid we used ropers gloves they were made from soft leather but they fit the hand real good and wernt to thick but did the job.

[Oldfalguy]

Glad your all right- scary thing

But I need to ask one small, probably silly question-
When I hear the term multiple discharge in respect to black powder I think a chain fire which I thought generally only occurs when the fire from the in battery chamber flashes over onto the breech side of an adjacent loaded chamber and is caused when that chamber(s) are not either Crisco'ed over or otherwise covered by a wonder wad type thing.
Is that what happened here?

Or as I am starting to understand was caused somehow by a spark hitting an uncovered/uncapped chamber?? FOr now I am assuming this is what happened- Probably going to cause more than a few to get those other kind of nipples (wink) me too-hahaha
The mere mention by one poster that the cylinder could have moved backwards setting off a capped chamber is a wee bit chilling!!
Sorry if I am a little thick on this subject.

[Ginormous]

was caused somehow by a spark hitting an uncovered/uncapped chamber?

This is what I believed happened. The cylinder in battery fired, gasses from the cylinder in battery either from the breech end or escaping from the nipple, reached an adjacent cylinder in which a percussion cap had fallen off, resulting in a discharge of that out of battery cylinder.

The Dragoon was loaded as I described above, .457 Speer swagged round ball (which shaves a nice lead ring), RWS 1075 caps (which have always stayed on in the past), 35 gr Swiss 3FFFg BP, and a crisco/beeswax lube pill between the powder and ball.

And yes, I am definitely replacing the nipples on both of my revolvers with appropriate Tresso AMPCO nipples. :)

[mykeal]

Oldfalguy - the term 'chain fire' simply describes an event where one or more out of battery chambers discharges immediately following the in battery chamber. it does not discriminate as to the source of the ignition of the out of battery chambers.

There is much speculation, the vast majority of it without data, regarding the cause of a chain fire. Regardless of one's personal opinion or experience, it is reasonable to say that the best insurance against a chain fire is both properly fitting and installed projectiles (ie, the 'shave a ring of lead' statement) and properly fitting and installed percussion caps. Chain fires happen when hot gas (not sparks) from the fired chamber make their way to the powder in an out of battery chamber; the gas must be of sufficient temperature to ignite the powder. If one leaves a path due to a loose or out of shape ball or cap, the gas can make the journey, and if it's still hot enough, well, then, bang.

By the way, grease and/or wonder wads are good backup insurance against the odd leaky path from the front, but a proper fitting ball is the best prevention in that case.

The gas can get there; you need to see that it doesn't.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/mykealsm/Guns/NightRevolver.jpg

[Ginormous]

Nice pic mykeal! Looks hot there! This really shows how the hot gasses do in fact envelope the cylinder area of a revolver. Scary stuff, and just reaffirms my decision to start wearing shooting gloves of some sort, and to replace the OEM nipples with something a bit more robust. I'll also keep using those lube pills between ball and powder. They have some great benefits besides assisting in sealing the cylinder breech

[Voodoochile]

mykeal;
I never get enough of seeing this picture of your '51 in action nor of Smokin Gun's picture of one of his Remingtons.

Very cool.

[mykeal]

Not my gun, nor my hand. Not even my picture - I 'borrowed' it from another forum and post it every now and then to remind folks of what the real chain fire mechanism is.

[Fingers McGee]

Here's a couple more pics of C&B ignition
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/Coltignition.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/Remingtoningnition.jpg

[Matt-J2]

Looks kind of odd, what with the hammer being back and all.(the image shown by Mykeal, that is. posted this as Fingers was posting)

[arcticap]

what with the hammer being back and all

Maybe the hammer is rebounding from the amount of blowback through the nipple, due to a large powder charge.
Depending on the individual gun and model, hammers can start rebounding after loading ~40 grains of powder or more.

[Matt-J2]

Could be, I certainly can't say. There is an awful nice stream of sparks rising vertically from that area, that's for sure.

[mykeal]

You need to understand how such pictures are made. That photo, unlike the ones posted by Fingers, is not a single instant in time, but rather a time lapse photo. The position of the hammer that you see most clearly is simply the one most illuminated by the flash - there are many others under it that don't show as well because they are not illuminated. Sort of like the long traces of the burning embers.

The point is, we don't know if that hammer position is as the trigger is pulled or rebounding from the nipple - it's whatever the flash caught. My own personal guess is that the flash caught an early position, as or even before the trigger is pulled, and the embers/burning gas simply superimposed themselves on the image that the flash did not illuminate. Notice the flash on the background trees as an example.

[fordlover35]

Just glad that you are ok. That could have truned out a lot wores. A friend of my dads lost three of his fingers from the same thing happing to him. Again just glad that you are ok.

[Oldfalguy]

Ginormous Hope you hand is improving
Mykeal thank you for the excellent explanation
The picture was MOST illustrative.
I for one am going with Treso nipples and a glove.

[Ginormous]

Thanks all. It looks to be healing pretty well now.

And I am definitely a glove wearer now. :D

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/DSCF1138.jpg

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/DSCF1143.jpg

[gotgcoalman]

Thanks all. It looks to be healing pretty well now.

And I am definitely a glove wearer now.

All sorted it was your right hand,you had the camera the wrong
way around.

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww225/gotgcoalman_2009/right1.jpg



http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww225/gotgcoalman_2009/right2.jpg

Sorry about that and wish you a speedy recovery.
Dave.

[Ginormous]

Now there's a good argument against the Weaver grip with BP shooting if I ever saw one! :)

[BCRider]

Well, you guys have turned me into a glove wearing shooter as well.

I've seen some VERY nice deer skin gloves. Check out the ones that the horse riders wear as well as don't bypass the dress gloves.

Leather responds well to soaking and then wearing until dry by stretching where tight and shrinking a bit were not tight. With some trials I'll bet you could wet form a set of deer skin gloves to conform to a nice shooting grip. And hey, even if the thin deer skin is ruined during any future such accident at least it'll only be the glove. Do up two gloves so you have a spare.

I wonder if this is why the officers and calvary guys always had gloves?