Campus Carry and Faculty Flight


PDA






geophysicishooter
April 28, 2009, 02:44 PM
I had the pleasure this past weekend of being a judge at a UIL Regional debate tourney (former high school debater, I am). Saturday morning's edition of the local fishwrap (newspaper) above-the-fold story was a piece regarding the bill in the Texas Legislature allowing concealed carry on the campuses of Tx universities and colleges. So I bring it up in talking to the tourney director over coffee that morning before the day's activities got started.

Well, as you might have guessed, he was NOT in favor of the idea of "students carrying guns on campus". I answered his protestations with the standard "only CHL holders are legally allowed to carry under the legislation" and the arguement that forcing people to go unarmed is unjust, especially when it's been demonstrated, tragically and repeatedly, that homicidal maniacs don't obey "gun free zone" signs.

"Well, I think it would detract from the educational environment if students are carrying guns", "If the Texas Legislature passes this bill, I'll quit teaching in Texas or any other state that allows concealed carry" and "Utah and Colorado State have seen a tremendous flight of faculty since allowing concealed carry on campus" were the things he said in defending his opposition to concealed carry on campus..

It being extremely difficult to convince a staunch anti that guns aren't, in fact, sentient, autonomous beings capable of wanton killing on their own and time before morning rounds drawing short, I left him to his predjudice deciding that discretion was the better part of valour.

I just wonder how what he was saying about faculty leaving college campuses (campi?? like octopus/octopi) where concealed carry on campus is permitted..

has anyone heard of or know of any stats backing up that assertion??

and either way, is that good or bad for Texas Universities and colleges to loose faculty who fear law-abiding students, faculty and staff who practice their right to bear arms?

If you enjoyed reading about "Campus Carry and Faculty Flight" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
SpecialKalltheway
April 28, 2009, 03:16 PM
I have never heard anything about a teacher quitting CSU because of the policy change(it was already legal here, just against school policy) that allowed students to carry on campus. The policy change was before I got here though. I will do some digging, but I would love you to ask that guy for proof. If you find anything that backs that statement up I would like to know.

P.S. it is great to carry on campus everyday :D (just making the other college student jealous)

WardenWolf
April 28, 2009, 03:17 PM
You know what? If it runs these liberal socialist teachers out of education, where they can't indoctrinate our young men and women anymore, I'm all for it!

desidog
April 28, 2009, 03:23 PM
"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

SpecialKalltheway
April 28, 2009, 03:25 PM
"and either way, is that good or bad for Texas Universities and colleges to loose faculty who fear law-abiding students, faculty and staff who practice their right to bear arms?"

I find it is usually the liberal minded teachers that push their social agendas on their classes. So, I would say this is a good thing.

"If the Texas Legislature passes this bill, I'll quit teaching in Texas or any other state that allows concealed carry"

you should have got this in writing :D
with the bad economy I'd love to see someone that anti quit over his misguided principles.

SpecialKalltheway
April 28, 2009, 03:31 PM
desidog "Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

Well it's nice to know that we share some common ground with the anti's. We both have ignorant people. :rolleyes:

There are 11 schools in this country that allow CCW permit holders to carry on campus. I assume you didn't know this since you think that people will drink and shoot people on campus.

FYI it is illegal to be intoxicated and in possession of a firearm regardless if you have a CCW or not. So, the scenario you are suggesting is illegal in its own. Are you saying by making one thing legal we then make it possible for another crime to be broken? If the person is willing to go through the trouble of getting his permit which involves telling the cops he has a gun pretty much and getting finger printed then he is going to go out and break the law????

Yup I like to inform the cops of me first before I break the law in other ways :rolleyes:

sacp81170a
April 28, 2009, 03:31 PM
"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

What a lovely straw man you've constructed there. Fools will be fools on or off campus. Are you saying that everyone who has a CHL should be denied carry because one of their roommates might do something bad? That dog won't hunt.

desidog
April 28, 2009, 03:51 PM
I went to Harvard, where i observed many smart kids do stupid things. I am not against concealed carry on campus, but i understand that many faculty members who have frequent interaction with students realize that many students are immature. I can understand their reservations.

I'm not concerned with the legality of holding a gun while drunk, i'm concerned about stupid accidents and mistakes happening more than righteous cases of self defense. This in turn will hurt the 2A cause.

WardenWolf
April 28, 2009, 03:57 PM
And yet this immature behavior tends to curb greatly by the time they turn 21. People tend to go wild during freshmen and sophomore years, getting their first taste of freedom. By junior year, they're pretty well settled in.

larry_minn
April 28, 2009, 04:02 PM
The only folks UNDER 21 who can legally carry are POLICE OFFICERS... This will NOT CHANGE THAT... It will only be last yr (or two) for traditional students that they can carry.

indoorsoccerfrea
April 28, 2009, 04:07 PM
i am 19 years old and i can legally carry in many states. the argument that students will go crazy and shoot people while drunk is an extreme example. i am an advocate for allowing licensed students to carry. license holders statistically have a much lower crime rate than non-license holders. that alone speaks in our favor.

desidog
April 28, 2009, 04:15 PM
Yeah, i was under the impression that you can carry in TX from 18 on.

Thanks SpecialKalltheway and sacp81170a for taking the bait...arguing gun rights on a gun site is like preaching to the choir.

CapnMac
April 28, 2009, 04:15 PM
Well, let's see, college students-
A group that generally ignores
drinking age laws
driving under influence laws
downloading laws
visitation rules

But they are complying with carry laws? Really?

Gee perfesser, the sweet darlin's aren't copying your old tests, either.

Maybe anyone that unaware ought to go educate in a nice safe place, like downtown new Haven.

indoorsoccerfrea
April 28, 2009, 04:21 PM
don't generalize. many people break laws all the time. just because the group you hear about most are the ones who ARE breaking the laws does not mean that ALL are breaking the laws. there are several states allow college carry, and they have not had drunken shootings. believe me, we would have heard about it. it irritates me when people make broad statements that college students all ignore laws. i am a college student. i can legally carry off campus, why should i have to sacrifice my right to self-defense because of mr. fraternity who destroys his liver every night?

ArmedBear
April 28, 2009, 04:22 PM
Oh yeah, they'll all leave.

Because SO many public institutions are on one massive hiring spree right now.

Because the other states with large systems, like California and New York are SO flush with money.

I mean, I don't care if they quit. But where would they go?

6_gunner
April 28, 2009, 04:26 PM
I'm quite comfortable with the idea of college professors fleeing from pro-gun states. I'll be looking for a teaching position in a few years and I will be happy to take one of their places.

GEM
April 28, 2009, 04:27 PM
The academic job market is not that hot (like many others). I doubt tenured folks are fleeing and that is BS if truly stated.

The Chronicle of Higher Ed - the business paper of record for universities has never mentioned such. There was one letter to the editor years ago by some fool saying he wouldn't send his kid to a carry campus but I haven't seen any other measures mentioned.

If there was a big move, it would have been reported. Being a TX academic, I think it is BS.

Now, most of the college presidents and faculty senates seem to oppose the bill. But fleeing - haven't seen it proposed.

KBintheSLC
April 28, 2009, 04:37 PM
I just wonder how what he was saying about faculty leaving college campuses (campi?? like octopus/octopi) where concealed carry on campus is permitted..

has anyone heard of or know of any stats backing up that assertion??

Its yet another made up "factoid" by another scared, emotional anti. There has been no such issue here in Utah. I was attending the University of Utah at the time the State decided to block the University from banning guns. There were some hysterical, and blasphemous predictions flying through the air from some of the staff... none of which have happened as of yet. As for a mass exodus of disgruntled faculty, that didn't happen either. Most of them sucked it up and got over it.

I hear this argument often from the pacifists... "we don't want to do it because it makes people uncomfortable"... in the mean time we put our young people in hypothetical shackles for any psycho perp to exploit. I say, bring on the discomfort.

RP88
April 28, 2009, 04:43 PM
how is a CONCEALED weapon going to detract from the learning environment?

The only things that detract from my learning environment are bad teachers, people who talk and act disruptive during lecture, and attractive college girls in tight jeans or short skirts. :neener:

panzer426
April 28, 2009, 05:20 PM
Anyone responsible enough to hold a concealed carry license should be responsible enough to not allow said weapon to fall into the hands of stupid people such as those described by desidog.

To carry a chl/ccw you have to be 21 or active military, in Texas, I thought that was all 50 states. Most 21 and up students do not live on campus. Most men and women able to get a chl would keep it out of the hands of irresponsible people (ie, anyone but themselves unless supervised by themselves and in proper location such as gun range) and probably not even inform those irresponsible students that they even have a gun.

The bills to allow concealed carry on campus are to allow those who already passed the tests to hold a concealed carry license, they have proven themselves to be at the very least deserving of a chance at being trusted on campus. If these bills were intended to allow any/all students in any college around the country to carry a gun, that would be a bad thing.

geophysicishooter
April 28, 2009, 05:24 PM
yeah the good lookin girls in their sundresses is quite distracting.. but I'll take it..

The "I'm leaving if they allow concealed carry on campus" attitude didn't really make sense to me either. I just can't see up and quitting a job just because people are doing what people have been doing everywhere else you do your business..

guess what? every bank, grocery store,coffee shop, etc you've been going to, someone's been carrying a concealed weapon.. and guess what else?? they; didn't shoot and kill you..

You'd think a professor of debate would recognise a non-unique arguement when he makes one..

Vern Humphrey
April 28, 2009, 05:45 PM
"If the Texas Legislature passes this bill, I'll quit teaching in Texas or any other state that allows concealed carry" and "Utah and Colorado State have seen a tremendous flight of faculty since allowing concealed carry on campus" were the things he said in defending his opposition to concealed carry on campus..
I would advise him to exercise caution upon departure to avoid being impacted posteriorily by the protuberance on the portal.

CentralTexas
April 28, 2009, 06:27 PM
You wrote
"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems."

Are you kidding me, that's as bad as the racial; white bubba stereotypes used as reasosn by the left to deny our Second Amendment rights. With friends like that....

BhmBill
April 28, 2009, 06:38 PM
"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

LOL. *wipes tears from eyes*

We got some comedians on this site.

indoorsoccerfrea
April 28, 2009, 06:40 PM
"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

plus if a student can carry on campus...why wouldn't he be carrying it? and even if he left it in the room I would hope he had it secured. I would have absolutely no problem with colleges requiring a certain type of safe, as I would lock it up anyways.

mljdeckard
April 28, 2009, 06:56 PM
If I had a professor promise to leave if carry was allowed on campus.....I'd ask to get it in writing.

Both of my parents are professors at a Utah university. Their offices are next to the trades department, where until a few years ago, the gunsmithing students had an indoor test chamber. This institution has become more encumbered by the beurocracy that comes with mandatory diversity studies, etc, but no one has ever said a word about guns.

I was a Criminal Justice student at WSU in Utah, and we had so many off-duty cops in the department, no one even looked twice if you were open carrying. (I was however outraged when a caller on Tom Gresham's Gun Talk this week read an editorial from a CJ professor I don't know promoting gun control.) Indeed, the hemp-wearing, tree-hugging professors I had in other departments aren't trying to leave, they are ON A MISSION to enlighten us and convince us that we need to have the government take care of us. THEY AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE. IF ONLY carrying on campus would make them leave. I would mobilize and get as many non-student carriers as possible to walk around campus open-carrying to help the process along. I would schedule shifts to ensure that during the academic day at any given time, there would be someone in the library, the student union building or the computer lab with a 1911 on their hip. Godspeed. Is there anything else we can do to convince you that this place is just too savage and unenlightened for your sensibilities?

Vern Humphrey
April 28, 2009, 09:00 PM
Here's a question I've asked over and over -- most of those college students can legally carry. In Virginia, anyone who can legally be in possession of a hand gun can carry it openly. And anyone over 21 can get a permit.

How is it those same people have no record of irresponsible gun handling off campus, but suddenly become irresponsible and dangerous on campus?

SharpsDressedMan
April 28, 2009, 09:11 PM
And Alec Baldwin was going to leave the U.S. if Bush got elected the second time. Idle threats. I only wish those that give those ultimatums had the balls to back them up; but, alas, if they had balls, they might be inclined to be armed and be in charge of their own destiny......

Cannonball888
April 28, 2009, 09:26 PM
Good riddance. I'm sure he can find a job at Che Guevara University.

John Wayne
April 28, 2009, 09:40 PM
So what happens if legislation is passed, allowing students with CHLs to carry on campus, but colleges (for the sake of argument, private institutions) decide to post valid (per local laws) no carry signs?

Are they within their legal right to expel a student who violates their "no guns" policy? This could result in a $65,000 fine for some--i.e., expulsion after four years with no degree or transferrable credit.

Prince Yamato
April 28, 2009, 10:34 PM
The academic job market is not that hot (like many others). I doubt tenured folks are fleeing and that is BS if truly stated.

Exactly. If you have tenure, you aren't going anywhere. You have the most secure job on the planet. The only time professors leave their job is 1) if they don't have tenure 2) They're going to get higher pay AND tenure somewhere else or 3) They've done something that not even their tenured position will protect them from and they're going to be fired anyway.

mljdeckard
April 28, 2009, 11:36 PM
Absolutely. The "T" word is what all strive to attain.

Oh, and John Wayne, we just went through this in Utah a few years ago. Carry is allowed on campus, and the state has pre-emption. The academia at the top of the University of Utah decided that state laws are useless drivel, and they can make their own policy. They have some kind of "Academic Privilege" which supercedes state law. They even got one judge to agree with them. That judge was just blocked for nomination to the state Supreme Court because of that issue, and the Attorney General made it very plain that none of them have any authority to chuck state law just because they don't agree with it. (I look forward to law school at U of U.) In Utah at least, the signs would not be valid.

The stupid thing was, they didn't claim any control over the general public who might happen to be strolling through campus, only students and faculty. I as a non student could carry a machine gun through the student union building, and all any of them would be allowed to do would be to call campus security, or face.....(wait for it) administrative discipline.

Albatross
April 29, 2009, 12:05 AM
In Oregon there are no legal restrictions against permit holders from carrying on campus. It is against university system code, but is regularly ignored.

No one is getting shot up around here and to give you idea of how many students do carry: This year alone two students were caught. One was a marine at Western Oregon University and it got quite a bit of news. Another, which didn't receive any media attention and was handled quietly, was a student at the University of Oregon. He was drunk and was actively ripping down Obama support posters down and was witnessed urinating on the administration building.

Both of these students were given punishments, but they are both currently attending school. I'm not absolutely positive about the marine. He was suspended for a term and laughingly had to write a 10 page paper about obeying the law even if he disagreed with it (funny because he broke no law). I have heard that he has returned to class and is finishing his degree, but I don't know it for a fact. He may have transfered elsewhere.

The University of Oregon student had to attend alcohol management classes and due to his "emergency expulsion" (which was subsequently reversed) had to withdraw from his classes and retake the term. During the course of his ordeal he wasn't permitted to be on school grounds causing him to miss too many classes to pass. Now he has been accepted to the graduate school here.

Anyway, lots of permitted students carry their weapons. If you want you can read about it here: http://www.oregoncommentator.com/2009/04/23/mo-ode-opinion-columnists-mo-problems/#comments

It is a number of liberty minded students commenting on a recent anti-article published in the student daily newspaper.

209
April 29, 2009, 12:21 AM
Much like a person who lives in a state which passes a bad gun law can't just pack up and leave, I'd expect there are few college professors who can. But wouldn't be a bad thing if some of them did.

Deanimator
April 29, 2009, 07:41 AM
"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.
Can anyone explain how this isn't an argument against gun OWNERSHIP... ANYWHERE?

Superlite27
April 29, 2009, 08:10 AM
"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

You mean to say "Yup....I HAVE SEEN no potential problems", don't you?

After all, most fraternity houses and private apartments are off campus where CCW holders ARE ALREADY CARRYING, so why haven't you said something about this non-existant problem already? After all, licenced CCW holders have been legally able to carry in these party houses EVER SINCE CCW WAS PASSED.

I thought you said it was a bad idea? Then where are all the drunken rampages?

Campus Carry is about CLASSROOMS where students are SOBER.

Carrying in frat houses and off campus apartments is ALREADY legal.

runrabbitrun
April 29, 2009, 08:31 AM
"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

Just another straw man argument. :rolleyes:

SaxonPig
April 29, 2009, 08:46 AM
Don't know about other states but I taught for several years at two Utah colleges and packing on campus (legal in that state) wasn't an issue with anyone except the Liberal college presidents who insisted on having a public cow. Students and faculty couldn't have cared less. Of course, Utah is a very gun-friendly state in general.

At one college the chief of the campus police taught the CCW class on campus and there was a shooting club organized by a professor and we were reloading ammo in a classroom. Another college allowed a gun show to be held in the school gymnasium.

youngda9
April 29, 2009, 09:34 AM
If I don't get my way, I'll quit....BWAAAAAAAAAHHHHH

Vern Humphrey
April 29, 2009, 10:26 AM
So what happens if legislation is passed, allowing students with CHLs to carry on campus, but colleges (for the sake of argument, private institutions) decide to post valid (per local laws) no carry signs?

Are they within their legal right to expel a student who violates their "no guns" policy? This could result in a $65,000 fine for some--i.e., expulsion after four years with no degree or transferrable credit.
Include an absolute liability clause -- if a student is killed by an armed criminal, the college is automatically liable.

Deanimator
April 29, 2009, 11:40 AM
If I had a professor promise to leave if carry was allowed on campus.....I'd ask to get it in writing.
When I was going to a Catholic prep seminary in Chicago in the '70s, I expressed a desire to see JROTC there. One of the ultra-left non-clergy teachers angrily said that she'd quit if they ever got JROTC. I replied, "We'll really miss you."

Vern Humphrey
April 29, 2009, 11:52 AM
Back in the '70s, I was Chief of ROTC Support at Fort Benning. I supported (and visited) all 295 colleges and 600 high schools with ROTC programs. Some high-falutin' eastern colleges decided to get rid of their ROTC programs.

Now, Congress sets the number of ROTC detatchments, and the Army has a waiting list of colleges that want ROTC but can't get it. Campbell College got the first opening.

A deputaton of snotty professors called on the College president, "We don't think there should be ROTC here. We demand a faculty meetiing!"

The President said, "We're going to have ROTC or we're not going to have a college."

It warmed the cockles of my heart.

Rellian
April 29, 2009, 12:15 PM
I would mobilize and get as many non-student carriers as possible to walk around campus open-carrying to help the process along. I would schedule shifts to ensure that during the academic day at any given time, there would be someone in the library, the student union building or the computer lab with a 1911 on their hip. Godspeed.

What shift would you like me to take? :evil: (If I thought for a second it would work) :D

scndactive
April 29, 2009, 12:16 PM
"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

A few words from the wise come to mind.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

fireman 9731
April 29, 2009, 12:23 PM
"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

Just about every off-campus house that I have been in has a shotgun leaning in the corner or a pistol on the coffee table. No problems here to speak of at all. When the beer comes out, the guns get put away someplace safe. I don't see what the difference would be in an off-campus student house compared to an on-campus dorm....

Well, let's see, college students-
A group that generally ignores
drinking age laws
driving under influence laws
downloading laws
visitation rules

But they are complying with carry laws? Really?


The reason that students comply with concealed carry laws is because there are some real ramifications if you break them! All of the ones above, (with the exception of driving under the influence) would result in a slap on the wrist comparatively. If you were caught with a gun on campus in today's political climate you would be hung out to dry. Expelled from school, a huge fine, and probably jail time...

Oooohhhh!!! I just downloaded a song.... whats gonna happen? Nothing. I just drank a beer underage.... nothing will happen. Oh I just went to my girlfriends dorm after visitation hours..... whats gonna happen? Nothing.

I'm carrying my gun in class and somebody sees it?
-Oh sh*t... I have screwed up big this time, I need a lawyer and a new school....

There is a big difference.

geophysicishooter
April 30, 2009, 03:48 PM
Well, I emailed the professor with whom I had the conversation on which the OP is based. I haven't heard back from him.

I'm not surprised, though I am a bit disappointed that he wouldn't take the time to at least respond with the standard "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree" boilerplate.

I have, though, discussed the issue with a couple other professors. Mostly they share the sentiment that it would disrupt the "learning environment" and how allowing "kids with guns" into the class room is frought with peril. One maintained the arguement that any gun brought onto campus would inevitable fall into the hands of a person intent on killing by his taking it from the concealed weapon carrier..

Through it all though, I haven't seen or heard one arguement based in facts or reality to justify the disarmament of free people in a free society..

for the LD'ers in the crowd, My value of liberty is upheld by the permitting of free people to carry about their persons the means and ability to defend themselves from transgression while denying such would negate liberty. Not even the permitting, but lacking the fear that free men will act to negate their own liberty by the mis-use or improper application of deadly force, upholds liberty. To deny the free person in a free society such means and ability based on one's own fear not only negates liberty but entrenches tyranny..

thank you. I'm open for cross..

rainbowbob
April 30, 2009, 04:06 PM
I mean, I don't care if they quit. But where would they go?

Let 'em drive cabs or work as convenience store clerks - unarmed, of course.

KBintheSLC
April 30, 2009, 04:39 PM
And Alec Baldwin was going to leave the U.S. if Bush got elected the second time. Idle threats.
What a tragic loss that would have been.

Rellian
April 30, 2009, 05:13 PM
besides, if the carrier is concealing correctly, Professor N. T. Lectuall won't even know it's there....
:rolleyes:

If you enjoyed reading about "Campus Carry and Faculty Flight" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!