[Oyeboten]

I'm trying to remember some evaluations I had read -


Are here successive Generations of 2nd, and 3rd Colt made Dragoons? Leaving aside the "First" generation ones?

And, which are considered better quality, better reliability mechanically, For Shooting?

Are the ones from the 1970s-1980s thought to be better than the more recent ones?




Phil
l v

[mykeal]

Colt's Manufacturing Company of Harford, CT. produced a line of percussion revolvers in the period 1971-1982. There were two different series: the 'C' Series, 1971-1978 produced in Hartford and the 'F' Series, 1978-1982 produced in Middlesex, NJ. The guns produced during this time frame by Colt's Manufacturing Company are called 2nd Generation Colts.

From 1994-2002 Colt Blackpowder Arms produced the 3rd Generation guns in Brooklyn, NY.; they are also known as the Signature Series as they bear Samuel Colt's signature on the backstrap. Colt Blackpowder Arms was a separate company from Colt's Manufacturing Company; however, they operated under license from Colt's Manufacturing Co. The guns they produced were made by many of the same people who produced the 2nd Generation guns.

Functionally there is no difference between the 2nd and 3rd Generation Colts. The 2nd Generation guns are considered genuine Colt guns and a letter of authenticity can be obtained from Colt's Manufacturing Company for a sizeable fee. There is disagreement about whether the 3rd Generation guns are genuine Colts, although some have reported being able to obtain a letter from Colt's Manufacturing for these guns as well.

The 2nd Generation guns command a higher aftermarket price than the 3rd Generation guns.

[madcratebuilder]

Oyeboten, mykeal report is right on. The 2nd and 3rd gen Colts share many of the same part suppliers. The 3rd gens have a much darker bluing, but over all both share the same fit and finish. Both would be an excellent shooter. Like all manufacturers there are a few lemons, nothing that can't be fixed.

[Fingers McGee]

What Mykeal and Madcratebuilder said.

I gotta add though, the Signature Series (3rd Gen) guns are much 'prettier' :barf: than the 2nd Gens. The metal has a much higher degree of polish.

[Oyeboten]

Thanks very much!


"April" is my designated "Gunna finally get a Cap 'n Ball" Month...


And after lots of brooding, pacing and day-dreaming...I am feeling drawn to a 3rd Model Dragoon...


So...we'll see...



Would I guess righ to suppose the 'Hartford' Models to be more desireable than the Middlesex ones?

It seems so to me...


How would one tell them apart?


Do the Serial Numerals have a Letter "C" or "F" prefix?




Phil
l v

[mykeal]

As I said above, there is no functional difference; the 2nd Generation (your so-called 'Hartford' models) do command a higher price on the market than the 3rd Generation (your so-called 'Middlesex' models). If one considers price to be the discriminant, then you would be correct in assuming the 2nd Generation guns are more desirable.

However, the finish on the two models is different, with the 3rd Generation being a darker blue and having a silver plated backstrap. Many people prefer the cosmetic features of that 3rd Generation over the 2nd Generation, thus they are more desirable to those people.

Still others feel the 3rd Generation guns are not authentic Colts, making the 2nd Generation more desirable to them.

'Desirable' is a subjective term, so it's impossible to fully answer the question.

You can tell them apart by the backstrap. The 2nd Generation ('Hartford' made) guns have a plain brass backstrap; the 3rd Model Dragoon serial numbers are: 20801 to 20825 and 20901 to 25099 in the 'C' series and 25100 to 34500 in the 'F' series. The 3rd Generation ('Middlesex' made) guns all have the silver plated, signed backstrap.

[madcratebuilder]

Do the Serial Numerals have a Letter "C" or "F" prefix?


The C and F are part of the part number. Referred to as C series and F series. Made in different facilities. The C series command a higher price.

The actual serial number of the revolvers took up at the end of the originals.


Between the 2nd and 3rg gen Dragoons there are at least a dozen variations, and that's not counting the private editions and commemorative sets.

One of my favorites is the 3rd gen, fluted 3rd model Dragoon.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/fluteddrg01.jpg

[madcratebuilder]

The 3rd Generation ('Middlesex' made) guns all have the silver plated, signed backstrap.

Actually, only about half of the 3rd gens have a silver plated back strap, and a few are unsigned.
Some of the 2nd gens have a silver back strap.

[pohill]

I haven't seen any definitive price differences between the 2nd and 3rd Generation Colts - I've seen examples of each higher and lower than the other. I'd say that the 2nd Generations are more authentic - the 3rd, in my opinion, look like they had aftermarket, personalized artwork done to them.
My 1861 .36 (white grips) has a signed blued backstrap. Great guns.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/CopyofS4020001.jpg

[madcratebuilder]

I haven't seen any definitive price differences between the 2nd and 3rd Generation Colts - I've seen examples of each higher and lower than the other. I'd say that the 2nd Generations are more authentic - the 3rd, in my opinion, look like they had aftermarket, personalized artwork done to them.
My 1861 .36 (white grips) has a signed blued backstrap. Great guns.

The real world prices on them are close to the same for the 'common' models. Some of the unusual 2nd gens bring higher prices. The new black powder blue books shot the 2nd gen prices up quite a bit.

[Fingers McGee]

All of the Signature Series (3rd Gen) Colts have Sam Colt signature on the backstrap, except for the Patersons.

Sig Series 3rd Model Dragoons had had brass backstraps & triggerguards, except the Military model cut for a sholder stock. It had a blued steel backstrap.

[madcratebuilder]

Sig Series 3rd Model Dragoons had had brass backstraps & triggerguards, except the Military model cut for a sholder stock. It had a blued steel backstrap.

F1700, Type 2, silver plated trigger guard and backstrap, never catologed-scarce
F1720 Type 2 same as above
F1740 Type 2 same as above
F1743 Type 1 same as above.
This is my F1743 Type 1
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/fluteddrg01.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/fluteddrg02.jpg

[Oyeboten]

There are two 3rd Model Dragoons I am looking at images of...considering to maybe get one...both are distal, so I can not handle them.

One, Serial No. GCA1179, has Brass Back Strap, Brass 'rounded' Trigger Guard, plain Round Cylinder...soft Blue Barrel, Loading Lever, and Frame. Appears unfired...with Hang Tag and Colt Cardboard Box.


The other, Serial No. not yet obtained, Case Hardened Colors on Frame and Loading Lever, Engraved/Rolled Cylinder Scene, cylinder and Barrel a fairly high polish Blue. Brass 'rounded' Trigger Guard and Backstrap. Appears fired a little...has Box.


Does the Serial No. GCA1179 relate to any known phase or location?


Neither have any 'signature' sort of things that I can see.



Thanks!


Phil
l v

[madcratebuilder]

Does the Serial No. GCA1179 relate to any known phase or location?

GCA1000-GCA1299. Giuseppe Garibaldi Special Edition 1982
F1740 EGA
The Garibaldi's have gold etched portraits of Colt and Garibaldi on the cylinder and gold etched panels on the barrel. Included a French fit case with etched glass lid and red velvet. 206+/- made
10/2008 blue book NIB1050, 100%900, 98%675

Some Garibaldi's were unfinished within that serial # range. Blank barrel and cylinder, no case.
750, 550, 475.
they are referred to as the "Freak Dragoons"
It is a rare odd ball. Appears a normal Dragoon except for the GCA serial number. 94+/- made. 94 is a low build number. If the price is fair I would buy it.
Should look like this 3rd model I have.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/3rddrg01.jpg

[Oyeboten]

Hi madcratebuilder,




Thank you very much!


Here is an image of the one, Serial No. GCA1179

Having a 'plain', no Roll-Scene Cylinder, and, seemingly soft, possibly 'greyish' Blue, Frame and Barrel.

http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/6138/2592821440067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2592821440067835264bSVKGT)



To your understanding, are the Garibaldis considered ( without controversy, ) to be true Colts? True 2nd Generation Dragoons?





And...here, is the other contender de jur, resembling very much in it's particulars, the one you show in your above Post's image...but I have not received Serial No. info yet.

Frame and Loading Lever have conspicuous Care Hardening colors, Cylinder appears to have a Roll-Scene, Cylinder and Barrel appear to be a fairly high polish ( maybe darker ) Blue -


http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/45483/2946369020067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2946369020067835264yoUHUD)


Both are said to be "Colt"...


Phil
l v

[madcratebuilder]

The Garibaldi is a 2nd gen Colt. It is considered a true Colt revolver. Your second choice appears to by a typical 2nd gen in finish. Post the serial # when you get it and I'll see what I can find on it.

[Oyeboten]

Hi madcratebuilder,



Thank you!


Serial No. of the second image one -


240XX


Apparently...having no Letter prefix according to seller.



Phil

[madcratebuilder]

240XX, C series, C1770 made 1974-1978. #'s 20901-25099, a total run of 3,899 revolvers. NIB 750, 100% 650, 98%550, 95% 425.

[NobleSniper]

Saw this on another forum and thought it my be informitive ;)

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/P...fColtBlack.pdf

[Oyeboten]

Thanks NobelSniper,


I could not get the link to work...but, I shortened it to get to Blue Book, and found this -

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Ecom/ProductDetail.aspx?id=285&industry=1


Might be a pretty good book to have.


Phil
l v

[Oyeboten]

...after pacing the room for a few seconds, and brooding on it...decided to get the Book...so...Book's on it's way...should be an interesting read..! And lots of pictures!


What fun..!


I'm enjoying this Thread very much, and learning a little about these is very welcome.


Thanks everyone!


Phil
Las Vegas

[Smokin_Gun]

Uberti Walker & Colt Signature Dragoon 1st model oval TG all matching numbers(transistional)
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/Mowrey%20and%20Big%20Boy%20Colts/BigColts2.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/Mowrey%20and%20Big%20Boy%20Colts/BigColts3.jpg

[Oyeboten]

Hi Smokin Gun,




Wow...

Very nice!


You know...the more I look at these...the more seriously charming and curious and inviting they become.


Can' wait to get one!

And, of course, to get the accoutremon, and, be Shooting!


Wish me luck!


Located an old Bullet Mould for Casting Hollow-Base rounded-flat-nose longish Bullets for .44 Cap and Ball...155 grn I think it was.

More on that if I can get it...




Phil
l v

[Oyeboten]

What recomends for Accoutremon?


Any favorite Brands/Makes/Styles of Powder Flasks, Cappers, Moulds?


Right Caps I suppose will depend on the actual Nipples...their diameter...


Phil
l v

[Smokin_Gun]

A .457" Lee or ? round ball mold would be a good addition. Brass capper, flask, Walker nipple wrench with the U mainspring remover.
A deep holster, sturdy belt and maybe heavy suspenders. And a Western Hat ...

[barneyrw]

Here's the link on the history of 2nd & 3rd Model Colt Percussion Revolvers:

https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf

[Oyeboten]

Thanks so much everyone!


I have arranged a purchase for a 2nd Generation Colt-made Dragoon.


Your various mentions and insights, knowledge, and indulgence of my questions have been very much appreciated.


Possibly, one of us could start an 'Official' Dragoon Thread, where specific Dragoon related discussions may continue?


Best wishes all...



Phil
Las Vegas

[Smokin_Gun]

Congrads on the2nd Gen Colt Made Dragoon Oyeboten... I got the Colt Sig 1st Model Dragoon never ave I regrated getting it.
It looks like you may just have started that Dragoon Thread.

[Oyeboten]

Thanks Smokin_Gun..!



Say...a question for everyone - What seems to be the correct Bullet Diameter , and also, maximum Weight, if one wishes to shoot other than 'Ball' Bullets in a Colt 2nd Generation Dragoon?

[madcratebuilder]

Say...a question for everyone - What seems to be the correct Bullet Diameter , and also, maximum Weight, if one wishes to shoot other than 'Ball' Bullets in a Colt 2nd Generation Dragoon?

Colt recommended a .457 RB or conical for the Dragoon over 35-40 grains FFFg (37 gr recommended) #11 caps

[Oyeboten]

Would a 165 Grn Bullet be alright, far as you know? so long as it were .457-ish?


The Conicals of the period I recall seeing, seemed to be rather light and stubby...surely, heftier ones, and or Hollow-Base ones, were used also?


Which I s'pose brings us to whether any one can relay or supply a link for Ballistics Tables, for the Dragoons, or kindred, showing various Bullet kinds and weights, on various grns of Powder...and, their fps..?


Phil
Las V

[Smokin_Gun]

I was shootin' 255gr round nose in my Dragoon with or with out the .45 Colt Conversion Cylinder over 35gr of fffg BLack Powder.

[Oyeboten]

Hi Smokin Gun,



Well...that sounds fairly Healthy..!


Been looking at old Moulds...brooding and wondering in these questions.


Thanks!



Phil
Las Vegas

[messerist]

Don't forget the "drool bucket!":D Perusing these threads one may be struck unexpectedly with droolitis, requiring a large bucket or towel to catch the drool. Once you get a revolver all hope is lost and the drool flows!

[Oyeboten]

Does anyone have any links to Ballistic's information on .44 Dragoons?


FPS with such-and-such a Bullet weight and grns Powder? And so on?


Anyone here Chrono'd theirs?

[arcticap]

Handguns February 1998
Cap and Ball Wound Ballistics

Calibre - 0.44
Firearm - 1848 Dragoon
Bullet - 141gr RB
FFFg - 50gr
Velocity - 1181 fps
Energy - 437 ft lb
1 Shot Stop - 85%

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=255957&highlight=45-70&page=2

[arcticap]

Posted by mec:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=32242&d=1133753221
Buffalo Revolver Bullets

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27485&d=1123559332

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=385852&page=2

[Oyeboten]

Hi articap,



Ye'd said -


Calibre - 0.44
Firearm - 1848 Dragoon
Bullet - 141gr RB
FFFg - 50gr
Velocity - 1181 fps
Energy - 437 ft lb
1 Shot Stop - 85%




Yeowie...


Yes..."1 shot stop" would seem probable...


I figured these to be no slouch...


Thanks for the info..!


Phil
l v

[Oyeboten]

Very nice...and nice Shooting there!


fps and energy figures, likewise...


Thank you!


Lovely Dragoon, too!



Phil

[Oyeboten]

What is a good source for 'good' Powder?


Swiss FFFg for example?

[messerist]

Powder Inc. will ship in 5lb lotshttp://powderinc.com

[Oyeboten]

Thanks messerist..!


I'll give them a buzz...


No one locally carries BP anymore.




Phil
l v

[rcw3rd]

I inherited a beautiful gun that is still in the original box, and has never been fired. It also has a wooden case from Colt with other items in it. I am curious as to the value of this piece and any information if anyone can help. The following info is on the box.

6-10-4

model C-1770

Serial# 22097 ( stamped 4 times on the gun)

Finish Blue

Barrel length 7 1/2"

Caliber .44

Thanks for the help....

[Fingers McGee]

model C-1770

Serial# 22097 ( stamped 4 times on the gun)

Finish Blue

Barrel length 7 1/2"

Caliber .44


C Series 3rd Model Dragoon; Mfg 1976. You'll find that the SN is stamped 7 times on it. Barrel, Frame, Cylinder, BS (only last 4 digits), TG, Wedge, & Arbor.

Value:

Pistol: NIB - $750 98% - $550
Case: Early C series case, Lined in Colt Blue with Colt logo pressed into lower right corner of the lid - 100% - $200
Late C Series Case lined in Colt Blue with Colt medallion inlet in lower right corner of lid - 100% - $175
F Series case lined in Tyrol Red with medallion - 100% - $250
Accessory Set - 100% - $300

[madcratebuilder]

C1770, 3rd model Dragoon, 3,899 made. NIB $750, 100% $650 98% $550. The accessory set is $425 for 100%. Typical Colt case is $200, some are higher.

[madcratebuilder]

Well, we agreed on everything but the accessory set. My $425 was for Colt #W5098

[rcw3rd]

Thanks for the information fellas. Don't know whether to take it out and fire it, or keep it in the condition it is in.

[Fingers McGee]

Quote MCB:
Well, we agreed on everything but the accessory set. My $425 was for Colt #W5098

You've probably got Price Guide #5. I'm still working on #4. 5 is on order.

Quote RCW3rd:
Thanks for the information fellas. Don't know whether to take it out and fire it, or keep it in the condition it is in.

By all means, shoot it :D. It'll make the value of my NIB one go up :evil:

Seriously. Shooting it will devalue it to a degree; but it will still be worth more than an Italian marked repo. Kept unfired, the value will only increase over time.

[madcratebuilder]

It can be a quandary, to shoot or not to shoot. I'm split about 50/50. Half my Colts are shooters and the other have not been shot....yet.

[Oyeboten]

Presently...for me, it's 100 % non-shooters 'Dragoon' wise...being I have ( only? ) one...and it's a Safe Prince.


I'm looking for one I would feel alright to be shooting, and then, it'll be "50/50"


Lol...


Darn it, I DID find one too, Colt, 2nd Generation, 3rd Model, non-letter-prefix #...maybe shot once...no box and papers, $400.00 and I was too slow off-the-dime, and I missed it...


Ouch...


...pout...

[madcratebuilder]

They are out there, keep looking. If you shot the C series you have it well drop in 'book' value. In real world value, not so much.
I really don't see any being bought at 'book' prices. Most of my Colts have been well under book price, a few have handling wear or have been fired, still the best C&B'ers I have shot.

[rcw3rd]

I think I will just appreciate owning it, and maintain the pristine condition it is in. Hell, this thing is still wrapped in the plastic inside of the box.

[tripe1917]

1979 mfr. Sherrard Dragoon.99184