[Daizee]

I have an opportunity to buy a used T/C Hawken .54, 28" barrel, missing the rear sight - for less than the price of a new CVA. It looks to be in good shape, and tight.

What twist do these normally come with?
I'll check it at the store when I get a chance...

I already have an Investarm-made .50 carbine which I intend to use for Deer hunting, but the price on this Hawken... deer lord (pardon).

Pictures, stories of wild hunts, claims of exceptional accuracy all solicited.

-Daizee

[bullseye308]

I have a CVA Hawken in .54(& .50) that is nothing but fun. I bought it from Service Merchandise around 1990 as a kit. Haven't had a need to get another since, and I haven't even used the .50 barrel yet. :eek: I will be trying it out this weekend if the weather permits though.
I believe the twist will be 1 in 48, like most of them I have seen.

For me, the look of the CVA Hawken was what got me interested. It might not be as acurate a copy of an original as some, but I like it just fine.

[D.Delozier]

The TC hawkens are nice sturdy guns.They also hold thier value well,I've recently sold mine on Gunbroker got 275 for it, hated to sell but neede the cash (hard times!!) But the invest arms are nice to probly neck and neck with the TC.I've also sold one of those recently a flinter got 200 for it.I really dont think you'll regret getting it if you decide to Fine guns

[Loyalist Dave]

Thomson Center Hawkens usually have a 1:48 twist rate.

It's an American company that makes stuff IN America, some of the best production steel used for factory BP rifles on the planet.

The company has been around for so long there are lots of after market stuff for them..,

Greenmountain Rifle Barrel Co makes drop in barrels for it, so you can swap out your barrel for a small game caliber if you so choose.

If you later get an authenticity bug, there are aftermarket locks designed for the gun, as well as after market hardware to make it appear more "historic".

OR if you like the hardware fine, but would like a nicer piece of wood, there are after market premade stocks of curly maple that use all of the stock parts, that only need sanding and finishing.

So..., if you decide "no" then could you tell me who I should contact to buy it?

LD

[hawmanai]

I have wanted one since I was a little kid.

http://www.moviemarket.co.uk/library/framed/691741.jpg

[Jack R]

can't beat the customer service,I have a .50 cal hawken bought used for $150 15 yrs ago. was having a misfire problem..called TC for a price on a lock rebuilding kit...was sent one for free. they also told me to look at the underside of the barrel, and if there was a maltese cross there, there was,send the barrel to them for replacement. would not hesitate to buy any TC gun....Jack

[Pancho]

I've got 3 TC's and I'd not hesitate to buy another one. Don't worry about the missing rear sight. They're easy to find. Just so you'll know the nipple thread is 1/4-28. I know a guy that loaded a ball with no powder. His answer was to replace the nipple with a grease fitting and pushed the ball out by filling it with a grease gun. Go figure.

[Ratdog68]

tell ME where to get it from and I'll put your mind to rest about it.

Snatch that puppy up and be happy. :D

[NobleSniper]

One of the best American Made front loaders I ever had.......matter of fact the only one I have ever had as far as a rifle. Never had a moments trouble from it and vry very accurate with RB's and 80 grains ;) Get it get it get it ;)

[Daizee]

very convincing!!

I checked the twist this evening - 1:48", as predicted.
It's a nice-feeling rifle, and all the appointments are brass. My Investarm has some aluminum bits (fore-end, cross-pin hardware).

It looks like the hammer sits a shade to the inside, coming down not quite centered on the nipple. Is this common? Can I shim the hammer out a touch?

I put it back in the reserved rack. Still pondering. I bought a crapload of reloading bits today and couldn't stand to plunk the card down *again*.

-Daizee

[mykeal]

Unlikely that the Investarm has aluminum parts - German silver, perhaps.

Off center hammer alignment is a common problem. Shim the entire lock, rather than the hammer itself.

[Daizee]

Thanks, mykeal - that's interesting about the lock. Is there a thread or page you know of on tweaking these things? I want to make sure I know what I'm getting into.

The supposed aluminum parts on the Investarm are blackened somehow, which is why i guessed aluminum. They'd be a LOT of silver, and it's a Cabela's branded model, not one of the spiffier Investarm-direct units.

-Daizee

[rocklock]

If it's just a little bit to bend, put the part of the hammer that attaches to the lock in a padded vice, and bend the other end with a large crescent wrench. Doesn't take much, so don't overdo it, just kind of sneak up on it. I had a CVA that was really bad, and decided to heat up the middle of the hammer with a torch, to a dull red, to bend it. I did that years ago, and it stills works fine after much shooting. There may be others here who know better and recommend against heating it, but it worked for me.
We have three .54 TC rifles in the family, a Hawken and 2 Renegades (same as the Hawken, but a shorter barrel), and @ 50 yds. all will shoot 5 shot cloverleaf groups with a 430 gr. Maxiball (handcast) over 100-110 grs. of Pyrodex RS. With a patched roundball, about 3 inches or less, plenty good for hunting.

[Daizee]

Thanks rocklock.
If I grab it I may try the hammer bend. The action screws need to be snugged a bit anyway, so I'll just go over it once first.

I sorta wish it was a .50 since I already have one, but I see that MMP makes sabots for .54->.452. With a medium-twist barrel my intuition says that the small-for-caliber .45acp bullets should shoot pretty well, so I'd only need a different sabot sleeve. Does that make sense?
(trying to keep things simple)

-Daizee

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Sorry, missing a sight, in a less popular caliber, I wouldn't give more than about $160-$175 for it tops, even in great condition. "Less than a new CVA" don't make it a good deal. Sorry. Hit some gun shows and you will find ones with the sight. What's the actual asking price?

[Daizee]

$90.

And no, I won't say where it is 'cause I'm gonna get it. :-)

-Daizee

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well, ok, for $90, yes! As long as the bore ain't pitted out, absolutely!

[mykeal]

Do not remove, bend or heat the hammer. Shim the entire lock. It's a whole lot simpler, easier and adjustable. Place the hammer in half cock, remove the single screw, remove the lock, place a small shim of wood in the mortise at the top (in order to move the top of the lock outward), replace the lock, replace the screw (do NOT tighten the screw; it should just be snug; if you overdo it, it will interfere with the hammer) and check alignment. Adjust the shim thickness accordingly.

German silver isn't silver; it's an alloy of copper, zinc and nickel. Hard and highly resistant to corrosion, was commonly used for gun furniture from the early 19th century.

[Daizee]

German silver isn't silver; it's an alloy of copper, zinc and nickel.

oh. :-)
obviously I didn't know that.

I prefer the shim idea to the bending - the hammer is clearly a cast part. bending a cast part.... *cringe*

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.
Assuming I pick it up tomorrow, as planned, I'll post a picture.

-Daizee

[arcticap]

Putting beeswax around the lock mortise is another possible way to shim it. Some folks use this method to help seal the mortise from moisture and powder residue, but if you use a little extra and/or add some paraffin wax to it to make it harder, it could provide enough bulk to shim it. Even if using wood as a shim, it would still be a good idea applying it just for the sake of sealing the lock mortise.

[AussieTH]

Daizee mate,

If that gun has a hold on you (which it obviously has) then go out and buy it.

Look – I am getting long in the tooth these days (what teeth I have left anyway) and my life has been studded with ‘missed opportunities’. I would see something that really appealed and then think “no, it will come up again” and it never did – so I missed out.

My latest acquisition was a large and complicated ornament – King Arthur and the Round Table etc done in pewter and some kind of porcelain imitation compound. The French original was off the planet in costs but I latched onto a very high quality copy at less than a third of the price, including direct airmail from the States. So I just bought it and never regretted doing so.

It does not do anything – just sits there under part of my sword collection – but it is a dimension to my life and if you do not have dimensions then you do not really have a life!

Just buy it mate! Scratch the itch. You can always sell it or exchange it – but you will have possessed it!

Aye

Tony

[mykeal]

Articap's mention of beeswax is excellent. Better than wood shims for someone doing this the first time. If you have a local hobby supply store you can get some there, or even over the internet.

Bending the hammer isn't a bad idea, but if you're not familiar with it and/or don't have the tools it can be difficult, and you can mess it up pretty easily. The shim is just easier, especially if you get it wrong and have to redo it.

[Daizee]

Oooh, I like the beeswax idea.
There's a solid pound of it around here somewhere.

Tony, you're right. I'm gonna get the thing.
I might trade it for a .50, a lefty for my friend, or just shoot it up.
It'll double in value the minute I replace the sight and shim the hammer. That's a whole lot better than the stock market these days. :-)

-Daizee

[Daizee]

I got it!
Spent an unexpected amount of extra cash on accessories... unexpected 'cause I already have BP basics. The store didn't have .54->.45 sabots in stock, so I got some PRB's and patches. Plus a ramrod with threads in the end.... Plus the rear sight...

Well, I'll help keep him in business, and he sure knows my taste.

At any rate, I'm comparing the T/C to my Cabela's/Investarm carbine. I'll post pix when I can. Here's how they match up so far, not having shot the T/C:

The barrels are NOT interchangeable. Close, but not quite. I think there may be a 1/16" diameter difference and the breech hook on the Investarm is smaller, plus there's a relief cut in the sideplate for the flash channel thing. The T/C flash channel thing hooks OVER the sideplate entirely.

The T/C is a nicer gun, in my estimation. Here's the breakdown, pro's of each:

Pros:
T/C Hawken: longer sight radius, better metal plus patch box (all brass), parts availability

Cabelas/Investarm: .50cal (prefer), better balance, handy size, real recoil pad, flash channel cleanout screw, stock checkering

Cons:
T/C Hawken: pretty, but brutal brass butt plate, heavier, .54cal medium twist

Cabela's: lower-grade metal bits (black German silver or anodized aluminum?), less precise fit, parts

-Daizee

[BHP FAN]

Congrats.Back when I was young,and dinosaurs ruled the earth,my dad bought one of the very first TC Hawkens out there. My dad built it up from a kit,and we were amazed at the accuracy we wrung out of it.My buddy had a really fine Mauser,and kinda pooh-poohed the BP TC.''Wadda you want with one of them ol' things ?'' went the conversation. Finally it got kinda heated [just between friends,though] and he offered to shoot ''for pinks''.I said no way,that's my dad's!My ol' man had sat quietly listening to us...now he spoke up.''Don't let that stop you son'' he said with a grin.
Longish story short,my buddy foolishly let me set the terms.I did NOT want to lose my ol' man's rifle,so I set out three cans,at about seventy five yards.[that's what my dad and I had been shooting at all weekend] and said best two out of three,and when we each took turns,I went first,and knocked down one, he went ,missed one,and I went and got mine,and so on,until all three cans were down.''Wait!''cried my buddy..'' best two out of three'', he asked?
No way says I,and took his beautiful Argentine Mauser, and stuck it in the back of my closet for a week.[just to teach him a lesson] I eventually gave it back,and my buddy ended up even more into black powder guns than [I]I am.

[Ratdog68]

That's thar's phunny shtuff !!! :D

[Ratdog68]

Now... order yourself up a .50 cal barrel for the T/C and then ask yourself why you're keeping the Cabela's offering. :neener:

[Daizee]

Heh, how'd you know what I was thinking.... Anyone wanna trade a .50 carbine barrel for a 28" .54? :-)

Wouldn't a 28" .50 weigh substantially more than a .54 of the same length? this thing is already muzzle-heavy.

-Daizee

[4v50 Gary]

Congratulations on money well spent Diazee.

BHP FAN - now that was a wonderful story and returning your buddy's gun was very noble of you too.

[BHP FAN]

It may be muzzle heavy,but so were the original Hawken's.It makes them darn near recoiless and superbly accurate.I didn't get my ol' dad's .45 TC when he died,but I got his Traditions .50 and his .58 caliber,brass scoped Hopkin and Allen underhammer.Wish I could shoot them with him.

[Daizee]

I think this is the larger-framed gun, with the 1" barrel instead of the 15/16ths. I wonder what the weight difference is.

-Daizee

[arcticap]

Now that it's yours, you can tell us where you bought it.
Was it at Cabela's? :D

[Daizee]

Heh, no it wasn't at Cabela's. In fact, I didn't get my Cabela's at Cabela's, and I only paid $125 for that one.

There's an excellent little bait shop in my town in RI.
His new prices aren't fantastic, but when he buys used guns he prices 'em fairly, usually based on what he paid, not merely on what he can get for 'em.

-Daizee

[Daizee]

Last night I polished up the brass with some flitz and pulled the lock off. It needed some cleaning and a little oil.

work done:

re-aligned the engagement parts and tightened the two screws on the inside of the lock that fasten the retaining plate.

lightly oiled the inside of the lock

shimmed the rear end of the lock plate up using a 1/8" x 1/4" piece of brass cut from a .22WMR case.

flitzed and oiled the barrel

installed the replacement rear sight (not thrilled with the glowey dots, but ok)

pulled the goofy homemade peep sight which was acting as a forward tang screw and emailed T/C about ordering a replacement

Regarding ammo for this 1:48 medium twist barrel, can someone confirm or refute my intuition (based on random reading):

round ball with moderate loads (low RPMs): ~80gr FFG
sabot with warm loads (higher RPMs): ~90-100gr FFG

90gr seems to be the most reported sweet spot for .50's and .54's.

I figure there has to be a rational pattern (within which there will obviously be individual variation).

-Daizee

[BHP FAN]

It's odd,but the most accurate load in my .50 is an .490 Hornady rb over sixty grains of 2f Goex.I use an old sheet to make my patches,and smear them with a little wonder lube or bore butter.Oh,and Remington #11 caps.

[Daizee]

BHP Fan, what's the twist on your barrel?

-Daizee

[arcticap]

Here's the TC sidelock manual:

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Shooting_TC_Side_Lock_Black_Powder_Guns.pdf

[BHP FAN]

1/66.

[Daizee]

Range Report!

I took it out today, side-by-side with the Cabela's model.
Truthfully, the Cabela's didn't get much shooting time.

I shot both with 80gr of FFG Triple-7 at first, then went to 70gr.
They both kick like mules from the bench, and the T/C doubly so because of that dang curved brass butt plate. I yelped pretty loud after the first shot with the T/C.
HOWEVER: I raised the rest up a bit and slung a bag of #7 shot (range provides as rests) over my shoulder as a pad, and that worked great!

From offhand it's not bothersome at all (without the shot-bag-pad).

At 50yds I grouped maybe 3-4", with some variation due to me messing around. I'm not sure I can see much better than that with post & cup sights - give me a good set of competition peeps and it's another story. Offhand and bench were about the same, or close enough anyway.

I shot with oiled patches and bore-buttered patches, both around a .530 round ball.

The T/C is the hands-down winner for me, I'm keeping it. I figure I can shoot saboted .45acp bullets sometime if I want, but within all reasonable open-sight ranges, the ballistics are nearly identical to a 240gr .530 ball. I'd have to go to a big .45colt bullet to get an advantage and some thicker clothes...

So I guess the Cabela's carbine is up for sale. :-)

Thanks for all the input, folks!

-Daizee

[mykeal]

The curved butt is not intended to be held against the shoulder. It should be held against the joint of the upper arm and shoulder, with the 'point' curving towards the armpit. You'll find that much more comfortable.

[arcticap]

Plus 777 produces more felt recoil than other powders.

[Daizee]

That's why the RO told me - that 777 runs 10% hotter or so than BP/Pyrodex.

If that's true, I don't feel like a *total* wimp.
I'll experiment with positioning the gun, but offhand it was really just fine.

It will be interesting to shoot some sabots in the gun later.
Are there ever problems with plastic fouling?

I stuck the breech end (ok, there's no breech) of the barrel in a bucket of soapy water and ran patches in and out to clean it up. Finished with a patch of MPro-7, then dry and bore butter. Seemed easy enough.

Yep, hooked.

-Daizee

[arcticap]

Plastic fouling?
Some [older] brands do but that's not really a problem since the barrel needs to be swabbed every 1 - 3 shots when shooting sabots anyway, due to the loading difficulty that powder fouling causes.
I like to use the TC Break-O-Way sabots with a 240 grain .44 mag. (.430) bullet in the 1 in 48".
They're also made in .54 caliber which have a clear blue color, and are sold combined with Hornady XTP bullets or in bulk packs of sabots only.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=48939&d=1165388448

[Daizee]

Those are cute.

I won't worry about the plastic, then.
The packaged bullet/sabot combos are so dang expensive that I've vowed to avoid them in favor of buying MMP sleeves for my bulk-purchased pistol bullets. Typically I see them for about $1/round - and there's no powder, primer, brass, or assembly!

Are the T/C's more affordably priced than what I've seen locally? Usually I see only jacketed bullets - the ones in your picture look great.

I'm sure the XTP's are excellent at rifle velocities.

I emailed T/C and they are sending me a new tang screw to replace the one the previous owner tossed - for free. Great customer service from another American firearm company.

-Daizee

[arcticap]

It's not as easy to find the bulk .54 Break-O-Way sabots for sale anymore, although they can still be found at some gunshops and online combined with XTP bullets.
The bulk sabots used to cost $6 - $8 for a plastic bag of 50, but then TC switched to newer packaging and their price went up.
There's plenty of other bulk sabots to try and something is bound to work.

[Buckshooter]

I used to work for Thompson/Center back in the days when Ken Thompson and Warren Center ran the business. Ken ran the investment casting and Warren ran the gun side. It was a great place to work and both the owners were hands on people who were thrilled to have you working for them as long as you worked and enjoyed what you were doing. I worked in the wood room where the stocks were carved and sanded. It was a great job. We used to build presentation rifles for visiting dignitaries. One of the stocks I worked on was given to Ronald Reagan about four years before he was elected President. He hung it over the fireplace at the West Coast White House. We made some beautiful guns back in the day. Everything was done by hand and nothing left the factory until it was just about perfect. I can walk into a gun shop these days (37 years later) and still feel a stock for defects if it has any. Most don't. Life time guarantee is one of the main sellers along with the knowledge that everything comes and is made here in America. The wood came from Arkansas at the time. That walnut was as hard as cement to sand, and it was beautiful when it was finished. I bought my first Hawken for $110.00 at the jobbers rate offered to workers. Killed my first deer and largest buck with it. I never bought anything else but T/C black powder rifles. My two sone own their own and are crack shots with them. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Hawken. They are both wonderfully made and functional.