[Preacherman]

You know, I can hear the "Paddy and Mike" jokes starting up already... :D

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3189184.stm):

Last Updated: Tuesday, 14 October, 2003, 07:50 GMT 08:50 UK

Irish guns 'fuel British crime'

Dissident Irish republican paramilitary groups have been supplying firearms to some of Britain's most violent gangs, fuelling the rise in gun crime, the BBC has learned.

There has been a trade in weapons originating from the Continuity IRA based around Limerick in the Irish Republic into cities such as Manchester and Birmingham, BBC Radio 4's File on 4 programme has found.

Sources within the National Criminal Intelligence Service have confirmed they are aware of incidents of paramilitary dissidents smuggling weapons into the UK.

Irish justice minister Willie O'Dea, who represents Limerick in the Irish parliament, told the programme he understands large family groups with connections in both cities have been acting as intermediaries for the trade in illegal weapons.

Mr O'Dea said: "Some of the people who are involved in crime in the Limerick area have also got a base in the UK, in and around Manchester and various cities in the centre of the UK.

"The reports I've heard and what I've seen would indicate that those people are travelling between Ireland and the UK and are involved in various types of smuggling which involve both jurisdictions, of smuggling drugs and smuggling guns."

In one operation firearms were swapped with one of Britain's biggest street gangs in exchange for drugs.

The weapons were transported in furniture vans driven between the two countries, according to a former Home Office-funded researcher who works with street gangs in Manchester.

The gang has been branching out into other British cities, selling drugs and moving weapons around the country.

But Greater Manchester Police said there was no firm evidence of guns being supplied from the Irish Republic.

In Birmingham, weapons have been offered for sale from car boots of vehicles cruising parts of the city which have had shootings, according to community workers trying to stop gang violence.

Earlier this year two young women, Charlene Ellis and Letisha Shakespeare were killed after being caught up in what was believed to be a feud between two of the city's rival gangs.

The latest Home Office figures show gun crime rose by 35% last year, with the home secretary telling the recent Labour party conference it was time to tackle gun runners bringing weapons into the UK.

File on 4's reporter Allan Urry told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that it was difficult to estimate how many weapons were being smuggled into the UK.

"We are not able to say if this is a major supply route, but it is clear that there is a lot of shootings around British cities and it is clear from information we've had from both Manchester and Birmingham that guns are getting through from across the water."

[Futo Inu]

Say it isn't so. Can't be - smuggling guns is illegal.

[El Tejon]

Ahh, yes, the favourite game of my ancestors, "Whack the Irish.":rolleyes:

And if we swoop down on Ireland and throw all their guns into the sea yet again will crime be stopped? Or will the guns just come into the hand of the baddies from elsewhere?:rolleyes:

[agricola]

You know, elements of the IRA (as well as some Unionists) used to be very very "officially" anti-drugs (indeed anti-anyone messing with "their" community who wasnt in their ranks or who wasnt willing to contribute) and would with some regularity kneecap miscreants if warnings were ignored - in the Republic as well as the North. This has continued since the cease-fire and probably constitutes the bulk of PIRA's activities nowadays.

Those targetted ranged from joyriders, small time thieves, to dealers and even big-league people like Martin "the General" Cahill, though they (PIRA) claimed his killing was because he was linked to the UVF, though like the rest its probably down to his refusal to pay protection money.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,418834,00.html

There are also more than a few big Irish families into criminal activity on the mainland, groups who are probably more than capable of obtaining firearms and who are rather high up the food chain:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/drugs/story/0,11908,910740,00.html

[Joe Demko]

Wow. What a surprise. No clear dividing lines between terrorists, organized criminals, and freedom fighters. Who'd a thunk it?

[KC]

I don't see what the problem is.
They outlawed guns, and now only the criminals have guns.


The English government and people have made their bed, now let them lie in it.

[sm]

Doesn't matter what country, or the politics thereof. Prohibit something and make it illegal, and that something will be available.

Sure was a lot of "furniture polish" used during Prohibition IIRC.

SWoD another example.

I assure you if pink underwear was deemed illegal today, by tommorrow one would see pink undies available all over the place.

[Enigma345]

Does this mean people can like smuggle things into countries where they are banned? OH MY GOD I can't believe it! /sarcasm off

[Selfdfenz]

If the Irish had their thinking cap on, they would smuggle in a new British Government.
S-

[Grey54956]

Hmmmm... I have just been reading on the Enemies Foreign and Domestic website. Then this pops up. I wonder if the Brits will try to use this to justify cracking down on the Irish?

[Standing Wolf]

The English have been blaming the Irish for everything a long, long time. They have no one but themselves to blame for their wretched socialist hell hole.

[JohnBT]

So the English send soldiers with guns to Ireland and the Irish send the guns back to England?

Hmmm...there seems to be a simple solution to this problem...if the English could see it.

John

[Brian Dale]

But weapons are highly restricted in Ireland. How can this be? :confused:

The English should STARVE 'em out! Oh, wait ... they already tried that. :rolleyes:

[telomerase]

Doubtless the big Irish gunmakers are profiting handsomely; Smith o'Wesson, Patrick Ruger, Mikhail Kalashnishaunnesy and the like.

The latest Home Office figures show gun crime rose by 35% last year

And of course this can't have ANYTHING to do with disarming the law-abiding. It's obviously purely coincidental.

[Balog]

SWoD another example.


Uhhhh, what does this stand for?

[another okie]

As mentioned above, Ireland has very tight gun control, and actually very few guns and little gun crime. It's just a pretty peaceful place, although it might be a little tense right now with the government banning smoking in pubs. There are some IRA types around, but they operate in Northern Ireland, which is not part of the Republic of Ireland. Ireland itself is a more like a sanctuary for them. You can go a long time without reading about any serious crime in Ireland. Maybe it's the Guinness.

The idea that British gun crime is Ireland's fault is so stupid only a British bureaucrat could have thought of it.

[Brian Dale]

More Guinness, Less Crime!

[KC]

"More Guinness, Less Crime!"

Ya know, he might have a winning idea there....

[PeteyPete]

The Irish are the scapegoat for all the social ills in the UK.

[M67]

IIRC, firearms have been virtually banned in Ireland since 1972 or thereabouts.

I don't think the Brits are blaming the Irish in particular. In the past they have put the blame for their crime problem on France, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Scandinavia... any place where it is easier to buy a gun than it is in Britain.

Just like anti-gun politicians in DC, Maryland, Massachusetts etc. are blaming neighbouring states with "lax" gun laws.

[Mk VII]

Irish Republic is even worse than Britain - no pistols, no rifles bigger than 6.5mm, and no reloading at all. Gun stores, in the conventional sense that anyone on this board would know them, scarcely exist. If you take a notion to buy a gun, you go phone and round to the dealer's house, and it is lying on the floor waiting for you to look at. And you either buy it, or you don't. Accessories, which most gun stores make their bread-and-butter out of selling, - QD swivels, cleaning kits, scope rings etc. - are unobtainable. They have to write off to England to buy them.

[gunsmith]

over there, I can tell you the farmers have guns,at least in West Cork.
They get drunk and go hunting every ST Stephens Day.
I think they use shotguns and .22 LR.
At the time I lived there I was only into the right to kaba not actually
owning one so I never asked.
I remember they were shocked that people in the USA could carry pistols.
The local bad guys duke it out the old fashioned way or use knives.
The local bad guys are only bad after to much cider or harp(an ale)
Guinness is for the tourist,they also have moonshine called "pochine"
It makes you blind then kills you,it's very popular.
Most of the folks I ran with never drank anything other then Barrys Tea.
Kids of 9yrs old stand around smoking & cursing!
That was the most shocking thing I saw.
Really no crime out side of Limerick & Dublin (and Cork on a lesser scale.)
Limerick is known as "stab city".
It's real easy to smuggle guns into Ireland and from there to England.
See a movie called "I went Down" to see how Irish hoodlums use guns,it's an Irish "Lock Stock & 2 Smoking Barrell's"

[Iain]

I think they are talking about Northern Irish terrorists from Northern Ireland - you know that place where terrorists still run free (some under the guise of politicians). Where Johnny 'Mad Dog' Adair is from, he of the claimed 11 kills but actually he was so incompetent with a gun that he never hit anyone on an 'execution mission' but very nearly hit one of his team-members. The only kill he ever made was that of a mentally subnormal Protestant (he is a Prot too) who was accused of colluding but actually had difficulty tying his own shoelaces.

These people kneecap teenagers for running riot, and no matter how bad teenagers are do they deserve plastic kneecaps? They are involved in drugs, they are partially funded by armed robbery, much money comes from the 'Irish Lobby' (that is the non-Unionist groups) in the U.S. War on Terrorism anyone? Some American citizens were for years funding almost directly atrocities like Omagh and the Manchester bombing, regular killing of RUC officers, 'disappearances' of 'colluders', kneecappings, punishment beatings, 'execution missions' and the like.

Couldn't be these people who might be trying to smuggle guns into the UK. No, all Irish terrorists aren't really terrorists at all, they're leprechauns with political point to make. :fire:

[gunsmith]

both sides of the abcdefg para millitary groups have killed innocent
teenagers.
All you have to do to have peace is take away the dole!
then everybody would be to busy holding down a job,they wouldn't have the time to go around maiming and killing.

[Bog]

Doubtless the big Irish gunmakers are profiting handsomely; Smith o'Wesson, Patrick Ruger, Mikhail Kalashnishaunnesy and the like.

Tears of mirth rolling down my eyes here....

But anyhoo, the UK "Gun Problem" is that all the years of teaching people from birth to take their problems to the Men in Blue Suits and Amusing Headgear is actually starting to work. For decades, the young have been indoctrinated to believe that Guns are Bad, and that if you see a Bad Man, a police constable will make them go away.

Pooh, so say I. If the British were taught to be responsible for themselves and their loved ones, rather than to Service Societay, then we wouldn't have so many people who can't see that "gun crimes" are a result of expecting the wolf to lay down with the lamb.

[Orthonym]

Did not the Brits try out their gun laws in Ireland first, 'way back in the 19th century?

Of course they could be right: I seem to recall that both Mr. Hinckley and all the people he shot (Reagan, Brady, the SS guys) had Irish surnames.:evil:

[Mike Irwin]

Those peksy Irish, getting liquored up and sending guns into Britain...

Someone ought to take their whisky from them...

But everyone knows that this simply can't be happening because the British have such effective laws dealing with guns and gun crime...

What does a British Bobby say to an armed robber?

"Stop, or I shall blow my whistle even more shrilly at you!"

[cuchulainn]

Northern Ireland has had very good homegrown gunsmiths for decades. While smuggling is (was?) a big source of firearms for "The Troubles," the black market gunsmiths could provide pretty much anything -- even knockoffs of Barrett .50s. With the ceasefire, these blackmarket gunsmiths probably have had less demand at home. Meanwhile the demand has grown on the other side of the Irish Sea.

Are the Brits scapegoating? Yes.

Is there nonetheless a core of truth? Yes. But there also was a core of truth that Canadians were "fueling" the "alcohol problem" in the U.S. during prohibition -- that didn't make prohibition a sound or workable social policy.

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

I seem to recall that both Mr. Hinckley and all the people he shot (Reagan, Brady, the SS guys) had Irish surnames.

Hinckley is a British name. After the city of the same.

[Orthonym]

I was given to understand, way back when, that names ending in -ley, ly, or leigh were most likely Irish in origin. No matter, it's even loonier if I'm wrong. --- "Crazed Saxon on anti-Mick rampage!" What a headline!

Disclosure: I'm an Anglo-Celtic mahself, i.e. shiftless Scotch-Irish Appalachian type. I really DON'T worry about fixin the roof when rain is not actually falling.

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

I was given to understand, way back when, that names ending in -ley, ly, or leigh were most likely Irish in origin. No matter, it's even loonier if I'm wrong. --- "Crazed Saxon on anti-Mick rampage!" What a headline!


Speculation here: maybe they are Celtic names, which would allow for Hinckley to be associated with England. It would be interesting to know how and when the city of Hinckley got it's name.

[Orthonym]

I think maybe leigh or ley is an old word for pasture or meadow.

Whatever. The British did impose gun control on Ireland long before they did it to themselves. Just practicing, I reckon. The religious difference is, IMHO, just the latest excuse for the antagonism. I believe the English were complaining about the uncivilized tribesmen in Ireland back in the 13th century, when we were all still in the Roman church.

[gunsmith]

I work with tourist and he happend upon a coworker and I engaged in a heated gun/crime/rights argument.
the "Bobby" agreed that "gun crime" is on the increase
and criminals can have them at will,but he still refused to see
that letting citizens enjoy unalienable rights as a good thing.
Oh well,I am not the best debater.