Confused by .357 sig vs 40 vs .357 mag


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Mooseman
May 1, 2009, 12:05 AM
This is not meant to be a versus thread as such. I'm confused because I have heard that the .357 sig round is supposed to perform at or very near the level of a .357 mag round. On the other hand I've heard that the .40 is more powerful than the .357 sig but less powerfull than the .357 magnum. I've become more interested in buying a firearm in .357 sig lately but I would like some clarification if possible on how it performs ballistically.

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-v-
May 1, 2009, 12:10 AM
.357SIG is about on par with 9mm +P+, which in real world effectiveness seems to be just about as good as .40 S&W.

The .357 Mag can be loaded from anywhere of the level of just above .357SIG (130gr at 1400 for .357Mag versus 125gr at 1300 .357SIG) to something faaar above either the .40 or the .357SIG (180gr at 1400fps)

takhtakaal
May 1, 2009, 12:22 AM
The .357 SIG's purpose was to recreate the ballistic performance of .357 Magnum 125 gr. in a semiautomatic platform with a higher capacity.

Most everything that you'd like to know, as far as basic info goes, is readily available at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG The suggestion there is that .357 SIG is most similar in a ballistic fashion to .38 Super.

My real-life experience in shooting both calibers in similarly purposed loads (range vs. carry, for example) from the same pistol (SIG P229 and P229 ST) is that the .357 SIG has a much more abrupt and sharp recoil than that of the .40 S&W, which tends to be "mushier," for a lack of a better word.

The recoil characteristic of the .357 SIG, at least for me, is such that the pistols in which I shoot it settle back down in the hand much faster and allow faster reacquisition of the target.

21bubba
May 1, 2009, 12:49 AM
I have two friends that had glocks in .40cal. After shooting my taurus in .357sig they both bought .357 barrels and have never switched back. Come to the " darkside" you'll never go back.

loneviking
May 1, 2009, 02:24 AM
The .357 Sig is a misnomer as it isn't a .357 caliber. Sig called it that as a marketing ploy. What a .357 Sig does is take a 9mm bullet and drive it at supersonic speeds. ( The .357 mag takes the .38 bullet and drives it at supersonic speeds which is what the Sig imitates.) What results is a very flat trajectory, and a very hard hitting round. Accuracy is better than the .40 but recoil is sharper. One shot stops with the .357 Sig equal the 125 gr. .357 magnum.

CDW4ME
May 1, 2009, 06:58 AM
The 357 Sig can (did :D) produce the same power (or more :D) as the 357 Mag. if the barrel length is comparable.

"Apples to apples" chrono results (except the P9 has a longer barrel):
Kahr P9 (9mm) Remington 115+P @ 1,163 = 345# KE
Glock 27 (40) Gold Dot 155 gr. @ 1,134 = 442# KE
Glock 33 (357 Sig) Gold Dot 125 gr. @ 1,315 = 480# KE
Ruger Speed Six 357 MAG (3'' barrel) FED. 125 GR. (Full power) @1,248

takhtakaal
May 1, 2009, 09:15 AM
I have two friends that had glocks in .40cal. After shooting my taurus in .357sig they both bought .357 barrels and have never switched back. Come to the " darkside" you'll never go back.

I was in the next lane to a guy who was shooting a P229 in .40 S&W and ruing having just purchased it, until I let him shoot with my .357 SIG barrel. The man was all smiles, and when he left the range, he put order money down with the gunshop on his own .357 SIG barrel.

cloudedice
May 1, 2009, 10:22 AM
I was in the next lane to a guy who was shooting a P229 in .40 S&W and ruing having just purchased it, until I let him shoot with my .357 SIG barrel. The man was all smiles, and when he left the range, he put order money down with the gunshop on his own .357 SIG barrel.

How interesting, I just purchased a P229 in .40S&W, but only because the .357 SIG wasn't available. I haven't shot it yet :( but I suspect I'll still buy the 357 barrel.

Seven For Sure
May 1, 2009, 12:04 PM
Winchester, Remington and Speer all load 125's @ 1350 in 357sig. The same companies load 9mm +P+ with 124's at slower velocities. The 125 bullets are truncated and the 124's are not. The meplats on the 125's are larger and the length of the bullet is shorter. They are not really comparable and in 5" barrels the 357sig starts smoking. 9mm guys who claim speed means nothing love to compare 357sig to 9mm +P+ for some reason. If speed is nothing, why +P+ ?

With 357sig you can practice with the same weight and velocity as your SD ammo. Everyone I know who shoots 9mm practices with wimpy 115's (WWB and Blazer) and carries 124 or 127 +P+. Not the same POI, not the same recoil etc. Practicing with +P+ would be as or more expensive than 357sig FMJ.

I'll still carry a 9mm sometimes (pocket) but I feel undergunned. 40, 357sig or 10mm for me. I shoot outside on private property and hunt and am able to see the difference on things besides paper.

357sigRog
May 1, 2009, 11:04 PM
I love the 357sig, it is my ccw and my favorite handgun. I generally carry mine with 125gr gold dots from Double Tap, it is a little hotter than some of the other loads and can get over 1400 fps. I also will carry Rem Golden Sabers Bonded 125gr and feel confident with either one. I think it is a great cartridge and most people don't give it a fair chance.

JImbothefiveth
May 1, 2009, 11:08 PM
It's probably louder than .40 though.

yenchisks
May 1, 2009, 11:13 PM
is'nt the 7.62x25 on par or even better then the 357sig?

Confederate
May 1, 2009, 11:48 PM
The .357 125gr JHP is kind of a "perfect storm" of components. For some reason you add 'em all up and they seem to outperform anything else on the ball field. The .357 Sig was an attempt to get the same sort of stopping power out of an automatic, but something just wasn't quite right. It's a good round, and I'd take it over a .40 SW, but it just hasn't had the actual street successes that the .357 round has. Some people think that the bullet shape has something to do with it, but who knows? I had one old firearms instructor who told me years ago that the .357 mag 125gr JHP was the closest thing he'd ever seen to "magic" in a handgun round.

jad0110
May 1, 2009, 11:48 PM
Not sure that it matters so much, you still need to put the bullet somewhere important for it to do its job effectively. Plus, bullet construction/design are probably more important than energy anyway.

But if looking soley at energy, the 357 Sig is in the same realm as most lighter weight 357 Mag loads, though the 357 Sig is limited in the mass department - there is no such thing as a 158 or 180 grain 357 Sig. There are some 357 Mag loads out there from Buffalo Bore that exceed not only 357 Sig and 40 S&W energy levels, but 10mm by just a bit as well (ie, 180 grain bullet, 1400 fps, or a 125 grain projectile at 1700 fps).

10mmCarry
May 5, 2009, 02:39 PM
You can use this site to look at the ballistics of each round and even compare them side by side gunsandammomag.com. The .357 sig was developed to pierce body armor (it sends a smaller lighter bullet at much higher velocities) while a .40 is a sized down 10mm that the FBI developed because the women of the FBI couldnt handle the 10mm. The .357 magnum is not even in a autoloader so thats comparing apples to oranges.
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Chart_C/AMMUNITION+BALLISTICS+FOR+10mm+Auto

novaDAK
May 6, 2009, 08:58 AM
.357 Sig was designed to provide 125gr .357 Magnum performance out of a service sized semi-auto.

It probably used to match it, but now it is about 100fps slower than the magnum in most factory loadings.

.357 Sig is commonly 125gr @ 1350fps
.357 Mag is commonly 125gr @1450fps

not to mention .357mag can use heavier bullets than .357sig, up to 200gr even. .357 Sig maxes out with 147gr and even those are harder to come by.

jaholder1971
May 6, 2009, 10:36 AM
.357SIG is about on par with 9mm +P+, which in real world effectiveness seems to be just about as good as .40 S&W.

True, but the pistols chambered in .357 Sig are made to take the extra pressures. Albeit there are exceptions...

The .357 Mag can be loaded from anywhere of the level of just above .357SIG (130gr at 1400 for .357Mag versus 125gr at 1300 .357SIG) to something faaar above either the .40 or the .357SIG (180gr at 1400fps)

Whoa there, cowboy!

Where you getting 1400fps for a 180 grain bullet from a .357? I'm hoping from a rifle or a long barreled contender, because if you're using a revolver I wanna know where and when you're shooting so I can avoid the kaboom!

novaDAK
May 7, 2009, 11:03 AM
Buffalo Bore makes a 180gr @ 1400fps.

Gunblast tested it at 1500 out of a 5.5" Ruger revolver.

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

10mmCarry
May 7, 2009, 02:11 PM
yenchisks- is'nt the 7.62x25 on par or even better then the 357sig?

Yeah the 7.62x25 can throw a jhp at 1700 only at 85 grains. thats really where it maxes out. verry light bullet.

IEGPM
May 7, 2009, 02:55 PM
IMO it depends on what you are going for. The 357 SIG has more penetration than the 40. On the other hand, due to the size the 40 will have more immediate knock down power. I am a bit partial to the 40 considering that is my CCW of choice.

tipoc
May 7, 2009, 08:34 PM
OK let's take a minute to look at the figures from a few commercial loads for the .357 Sig and the .40 S&W as maybe this will help clear up some things. I'm taking this info from Bob Forker's book "Ammo and Ballistics II" where Forker has compiled the published figures from the manufacturers and from testing. So keep in mind that the velocities are from test barrels and a bit higher than from an actual gun. To make things "fair" I'm using some of the higher velocities.

>357 Sig loads from a 4" barrel: Velocity at muzzle and at 25
yards and energy at muzzle:
Cor-Bon 115 gr. JHP: 1500fps and 1395 575ft.lbs
Hornady 124gr. XTP: 1350fps and 1278 502ft.lbs
Cor-Bon 125 gr. JHP 1425 and 1333 564ft.lbs
Remington 125 gr. JHP: 1350fps and 1246 506ft.lbs
Hornady 147gr. XTP: 1225 and 1180 490ft.lbs
Federal 150gr. JHP: 1130fps and 1080 420ft.lbs


In the loads above and below the 125 gr. there are few selections in commercial ammo for the .357 Sig. The reason the round came into being was to try to send a .125 gr. .355 dia round from a pistol that matched the velocities of the .357 Magnum with a .125 gr. pill.


Now the 40 S&W from a 4" barrel: Velocity at the muzzle and at 25 yards.
Loads for the .40 S&W begin with the 135 gr. bullet.
Cor-Bon 135 gr. JHP: 1325fps and 1229 526ft lbs.
Federal 135 gr. CQT: 1230fps and 1160 425 ft.lbs
Cor-Bon 150 gr. JHP: 1200fps and 1132 480 ft.lbs
Winchester 155 gr. STHP: 1205 and 1146 500ft.lbs.
Black Hills 165 gr. JHP: 1150fps and 1091 483 ft.pds.
Speer 180gr. GDHP: 1025 and 989 420 ft.pds.

Now right away you'll notice a few things. One I did not show here... there are many more loadings to choose form in 40S&W, about 3 times as many.

Available weights for the .40 S&W are quite larger than for the .357 Sig from 135 gr. loads to 200 gr. The window for the .357 Sig is less. This means it is a less versatile round. That may not matter to some shooters as they plan on using it for only one purpose...self defense. But the .40 can be more widely used.


With the hot Cor-Bon 125 gr. load for the Sig we can get 564 ft.pds of energy and with the hot 135 gr. bullet for the .40 S&W, from the same manufacturer, we can get 526 ft.lbs of energy but with a slightly larger and slightly heavier bullet which tends to cancel out the extra ft.pds from the SIG.

I didn't show this but the heavier loads from the .40S&W retain more energy and velocity loss is less downrange than do the lighter loads of the Sig.

Those who have shot both the .357 Sig and the .40 S&W (this includes me), with a variety of loads say that the felt recoil from the 125 gr. loads of the Sig is a bit more than from the .40 S&W.

Within a narrow window the Sig will do it's job (with a trade off in recoil). The window for the .40 S&W is wider though. There does not seem to be anything that the Sig can do that the .40 can do about as well unless we get to lighter bullets like 115 gr. But what do we gain from the 115 gr. that 9mm+P+ doesn't give you? For that matter the old .38 Super comes close to the Sig in velocity and can send a heavier bullet down range faster than the Sig can.

Think it over and study some. Hope this helps.

tipoc

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