What caliber and make does Ayoob carry these days?


PDA






Dr_2_B
May 1, 2009, 05:02 AM
I was just watching an older video of Massad Ayoob's in which he couldn't recommend a 10 mm or a .40S&W because there existed no real-life experience yet. Before I PM him, anyone know what he carries these days? I thought it was a Glock in .40.

If you enjoyed reading about "What caliber and make does Ayoob carry these days?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
jmr40
May 1, 2009, 07:00 AM
Last I heard it was a Ruger P-345

Ric
May 1, 2009, 08:33 AM
The last article I saw said something about a Glock 30, maybe a Glock 32

rbernie
May 1, 2009, 10:32 AM
PM him and ask.

Tirod
May 1, 2009, 10:36 AM
I thought he wrote it would be the LCP on the appropriate occasion.

He's probably carrying the latest and greatest as a tryout to see what does and doesn't work. Next month it may be something else - he seems to be the kind of guy who actually tries to gain first hand experience with a firearm rather than "bench" test it and pound out another article.

Anybody who can pronounce a firearm good or bad on one range trip is suspect in my book - and the magazines seemed to be filled with them.

Jim Watson
May 1, 2009, 02:36 PM
Well, he was SHOOTING a GP100 at the Florida State IDPA Championships in February.

Dimis
May 1, 2009, 03:14 PM
wait PM him???
Massad Ayoob is on the high road?

jfrey
May 1, 2009, 03:18 PM
Why does it matter?

thorazine
May 1, 2009, 06:27 PM
Because I want to be just like him.

Kor
May 1, 2009, 07:05 PM
At LFI-1 in Phoenix, AZ(April 6-10, 2009) Mas was carrying either a Glock 19 or a Springfield EMP in 9X19mm.

According to the Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery books that he authored, he carries a .40S&W Glock 22 when he works in uniform for Grantham, NH P.D. so that he can evaluate security holsters(most of which are made for Glocks, instead of the current-issue GPD service pistol, the Ruger P345).

steveracer
May 1, 2009, 07:14 PM
Whatever it is, WE ALL HAVE TO RUN OUT AND BUY ONE RIGHT NOW!!!!! That way we can avoid all the random litigation all gun owners face, and also keep ourselves as tactically awesome as we can be. Because you never know, he may be the guy sitting in the prosecution's bench as the gun expert, and your 642 without the lock will get you jail time.
Sorry for the rant, but I have to ask: Why do you care what Ayoob carries? Is he going to be at your gun fight?
Steve

Squeaky Duck
May 1, 2009, 07:15 PM
oh brother :barf:

Dr.Rob
May 1, 2009, 07:55 PM
I was going to joke and say 'he kills people with his mind', but in all seriousness the FIRST poster pointed out at some point Ayoob wasn't down for the 10 and 40.

Getting his opinion (a guy that arguably shoots for a living that is) is NOT the same as "I want to be just like so and so."

ljnowell
May 1, 2009, 08:11 PM
Whatever it is, WE ALL HAVE TO RUN OUT AND BUY ONE RIGHT NOW!!!!! That way we can avoid all the random litigation all gun owners face, and also keep ourselves as tactically awesome as we can be. Because you never know, he may be the guy sitting in the prosecution's bench as the gun expert, and your 642 without the lock will get you jail time.
Sorry for the rant, but I have to ask: Why do you care what Ayoob carries? Is he going to be at your gun fight?
Steve

I guess everyone has to have someone to worship.

MikeKeyW
May 1, 2009, 08:23 PM
In '82 It was a Magna Triggered Mod. 66 named "Fluffy" for LFI-I in Key West. LFI-II saw him with what he called his "Orthopedic" 1911, ambi-ed out when he crushed his hand in some mishap some time before. Mas can pick up anything and make it purr. As far as a favorite I'd venture to guess a Python is right up there, wants to play with my 3" when I can make it up Live Oak way.

rdrancher
May 1, 2009, 08:24 PM
Whatever it is, WE ALL HAVE TO RUN OUT AND BUY ONE RIGHT NOW!!!!! That way we can avoid all the random litigation all gun owners face, and also keep ourselves as tactically awesome as we can be. Because you never know, he may be the guy sitting in the prosecution's bench as the gun expert, and your 642 without the lock will get you jail time.
Sorry for the rant, but I have to ask: Why do you care what Ayoob carries? Is he going to be at your gun fight?
Steve

Mighty "High Road" of you there pal. :rolleyes:

I respect Mr. Ayoob's opinion, and I wouldn't mind knowing what he's carrying these days either. Oh, and "Sorry." :rolleyes:

rd

steveracer
May 1, 2009, 08:29 PM
What's not High Road about NOT being an Ayoob follower? He is a public figure, with whom I often disagree. I fail to see how that's "not" High Road.

L-Frame
May 1, 2009, 09:05 PM
Oh, I don't know. Maybe it's the childish negativity or dripping sarcasm directed at someone for asking a question. And no, your post wasn't directed at Ayoob, even though you may have meant it that way.

steveracer
May 1, 2009, 09:23 PM
In that case, I apologize. No offense meant, OP. I'll sit the rest of this one out.
Steve

mrheythere
May 1, 2009, 10:17 PM
You guys need to appreciate a good brother who has done so much to add to your knowledge base. I suspect he carries most calibers. A variety is nice.

mljdeckard
May 1, 2009, 10:51 PM
At the end of one of his books, he wrote that he has tried everything under the sun, won guns in competitions, fantastic competition guns, etc, but what he usually carries AND competes with is.......whatever his police department has issued him.

jmr40
May 1, 2009, 11:30 PM
Exactly, and unless something has changed recently his dept. issues Ruger 345's. They used to issue the Ruger P-90 and the most recent info I have seen indicated they had changed to the 345.

For his personal use I have read in his articles reports of him using a wide variety of guns.

TimboKhan
May 1, 2009, 11:55 PM
Whatever I may or may not disagree with him on, we share a common love of the P90. That is good enough for me!

gunnie
May 2, 2009, 10:21 AM
+1, steve...

a little over the top with cynacism, but a valid point.

1...is the OP gonna switch to that iron when he finds out?

2..or try to rub someone's nose in the current caliber they are issued / carrying in light of previous opinions?

3...if he HAS started carrying those calibers, according to the original statement, he didn't then due to a lack of statistics on their performance.

verily, #3 is why you shouldda been nicer. maybe the guy just wanted to know about and obtain the stats that changed Ayoob's mind.

gunnie

jocko
May 2, 2009, 10:27 AM
I think he shoots a kel tec Pf9!!!!

Gunnerpalace
May 2, 2009, 10:46 AM
To add to the speculation, he tested a Sig a while back in On-Target, and said he would add it to his carry line up or something like that.

pmeisel
May 2, 2009, 10:46 AM
I think I have read something about his experiences with most every make and model over the last 20 years or so....

sophijo
May 2, 2009, 04:29 PM
My son had the answer; "whatever he damnwell pleases"!

2ndamd
May 2, 2009, 07:38 PM
Mas is very knowledgeable in the force continum. But, as a gun rights adocate I disagree with him on some issues.

Mas Once said that Open carry of a gun to gain acceptance in the public's eye; was like homosexuals practicing buggery in the streets.

Really? Now, come on Mas. Carrying a gun in the open is the same level of disgust as two people practicing sodomy in plain view? Really bad analogy there Mas. And, I could not disagree more. I am glad rural areas in this country do not find open carry so disgusting.
If he admits he was wrong on this one item? I think he gives very sound advice on other gun issues. But he is extremely wrong on open carry issues. IMO.

Grey Morel
May 2, 2009, 08:03 PM
True statement.

I have been open carrying a lot lately, and so far nobody has seemed to notice; maybe they just don't care. Most homosexuals wouldn't approve of relations in public for all the same reasons why most heterosexuals wouldn't approve of seeing a "strait" couple in public: Its downright lewd regardless of your orientation.

When i open carry, I say "hello" to everyone I come into close contact with and I say it in a friendly tone. I also tend to smile a friendly smile. The only time anyone has ever noticed my KelTec on my belt, the incident went like so:

* I pulled into a fueling station, and filled up my vehicle.

* I walked into the station house to pay

* A man who was inside speaking with the cashier notices my piece as i am paying. I saw him look at it.

* I smiled at him, said "good evening sir", and walked out of the station house.

* As I was starting up my car, he walked out of the station house and entered his car, which was parked much closer than mine.

* We both attempt to exit the lot at the same time.

* The other man waved me on in a friendly manner (no rude gesture)

* I smiled, waved back, and pulled out of the lot.

End of story. This wasn't out in the boonies either: It was in a residential neighborhood in a town of 60K people, with a town of 30K 10 minutes to the East, and another town of 120K people 15 minutes to the West.

crebralfix
May 2, 2009, 08:56 PM
I still follow his articles since the first one I read. It was about the SIG P220 and using it for self-defense.

It was my first gun purchase and he did not steer me wrong.

Dr. Fresh
May 2, 2009, 09:21 PM
I think he said in some magazine article somewhere that he carries whatever he happens to be testing at the time.

Mad Magyar
May 2, 2009, 10:38 PM
I think he said in some magazine article somewhere that he carries whatever he happens to be testing at the time.

I don't believe he's that nonchalant about a carry piece. That goes against any principle of "practice what you carry" or "beware the man with one-gun". With his background, he could get away with it; but not a good example for his followers....:)

9mmepiphany
May 2, 2009, 11:55 PM
Open carry of a gun to gain acceptance in the public's eye; was like homosexuals practicing buggery in the streets.

"to gain acceptance" is being likened to "buggery in the streets"...it's not the act, but the motivation. it's the difference between Grey Morel's actions when he excercices his right and someone who forces their views/opinion on others

threefeathers
May 3, 2009, 12:48 AM
Look for yourself. This is during a break in the LFI class in April when he and I went outside to work with Jeff Randall from SWAT. Mas and Jeff were firing Jor R's Arms Tech Compak16 with supressor in full auto. Look closely and you'll see Mas's High Point on his hip. :eek:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/threefeathers/MasandJoeApril09.jpg

threefeathers
May 3, 2009, 12:49 AM
Or is that a Glock????

threefeathers
May 3, 2009, 12:53 AM
Last October, after watching many of us shoot, Mas is begging us to take up fishing.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/threefeathers/PA070114.jpg

threefeathers
May 3, 2009, 12:55 AM
This fellow was one of the top shooters of the April class. He was kind enough not to rub it in to one of his former Army NCO's who was there also.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/threefeathers/P4100272.jpg

2ndamd
May 3, 2009, 04:15 AM
"to gain acceptance" is being likened to "buggery in the streets"...it's not the act, but the motivation. it's the difference between Grey Morel's actions when he excercices his right and someone who forces their views/opinion on others

Open carry of a handgun is NOT forcing your view onto someone else. It is exercising your 2ndamd right.
Maybe freedom of speech could be viewed as dangerous as guns too? It is still a right.
No one should be allowed to pull their gun and walk around with it in their hand. Just as no one should be allowed to go into a movie theater and shout "FIRE!".
But, our discourse here is as tame and protected by the 1stamd as a holstered gun is protected by the 2ndamd.

heavyshooter
May 3, 2009, 04:30 AM
What's not High Road about NOT being an Ayoob follower? He is a public figure, with whom I often disagree. I fail to see how that's "not" High Road. --steveracer

Your disagreement was not the issue, it was the condecending manner in which you did it. You did not undermine Mr. Ayoob, you undermined the OP.

heavyshooter
May 3, 2009, 04:37 AM
steveracer, I posted the above comment before reading your apology.

Dr_2_B
May 3, 2009, 05:12 AM
Hi. I'm the OP. And I was just doing a little personal research that intersected with Mas Ayoob.

Nice to see the firestorm.

loop
May 3, 2009, 06:11 AM
Who cares?

Zerodefect
May 3, 2009, 09:33 AM
"who cares?"

+1

He seems to have good things to say 8 out of 10 times. No different than most any other gun nut or arfcommer. Whats the big deal.

I'd hope he carries the guns he's reviewing as thats a huge part of the review.......Carry is important, why else would I have a Glock on my belt instead of a 1911?

verdun59
May 3, 2009, 10:40 AM
It seems that you all care, or there wouldn't be 44 posts up here.

Ruggles
May 3, 2009, 11:28 AM
"You guys need to appreciate a good brother who has done so much to add to your knowledge base. I suspect he carries most calibers. A variety is nice."

+1

9mmepiphany
May 3, 2009, 11:38 AM
Open carry of a handgun is NOT forcing your view onto someone else. It is exercising your 2ndamd right.

you missed my point...i agree with you, but i wouldn't do it just to claim acceptance much as i wouldn't pander to popular belief

i just don't think it is tactically advantagous

Guillermo
May 3, 2009, 11:47 AM
I heard he turned into an anti-gun guy and trusts his safety to the kindness of strangers.

Guillermo
May 3, 2009, 11:52 AM
Okay...that post was a joke:evil:

Like most of us, he probably rotates several guns.

This am I morning I am carrying a 38 snubby, yesterday a 380. This afternoon probably a 4 inch revolver. Why all the guns? Yesterday I was dressed in such a way that it was difficult to conceal. This morning it is easier. This afternoon I am going for a hike.

Like us it depends on where he is going and what he is doing, wearing.

bluetopper
May 3, 2009, 11:57 AM
I heed a LOT more of what Jerry Miculek has to say.

I'll put my money on Jerry with a revolver than Ayoob with........anything.

bluetopper
May 3, 2009, 11:59 AM
double post.......sorry

Phydeaux642
May 3, 2009, 04:32 PM
Wow. There sure is no shortage of people with an ax to grind around here.

Mr.510
May 4, 2009, 06:44 AM
I'm sorry to the OP for continuing the hijacking of this thread. :o But I have to say that if I am ever forced to use a weapon in self defense my hands-down, number one pick of people to be on my legal team is Massad Ayoob.... and he's a HighRoader too. :)

threefeathers
May 4, 2009, 09:23 AM
Mr. 510, we will be having an LFI II class in WA soon, have you been through it?

Billy Shears
May 4, 2009, 01:21 PM
Open carry of a handgun is NOT forcing your view onto someone else. It is exercising your 2ndamd right.
Maybe freedom of speech could be viewed as dangerous as guns too? It is still a right.
No one should be allowed to pull their gun and walk around with it in their hand. Just as no one should be allowed to go into a movie theater and shout "FIRE!".
But, our discourse here is as tame and protected by the 1stamd as a holstered gun is protected by the 2ndamd.
As the old saying goes, "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should."

Even though it is one's right, carrying openly is really no more a good idea than passing out leaflets for the KKK to exercise one's right to free speech. There are several good reasons not to carry openly.

1) If you can even buy a handgun legally in the first place, then you should have no trouble qualifying for a concealed weapons permit, so why not just get one?

2) Carrying openly unnecessarily alarms people. I can tell you as a police officer, some of these people will call the police emergency number and put in "person with a weapon" calls. You will then have a policeman come to investigate you. Even if you are 100% within your rights, why invite that sort of attention? Especially since not all cops are created equal. They're only human, and being as that's the case, some are jerks, and some don't know the law as well as they ought to. You may end up getting one of those. So why run that risk?

3) Gun control advocates are engaged in a culture war, and have been attempting for decades, unfortunately with some success it must be said, to marginalize gun ownership and portray gun owners as paranoid, dangerous rednecks. They'd love for most people to view gun owners in the same light as those militia wingnuts, and members of other extremist groups, so as to make people less sympathetic to gun owners, and thus more likely to support gun control. Most people will view any ordinary civilian who carries a gun openly as paranoid, Rambo wannabe. Sure you may overcome that impression with people who know you well, but most people will still go away with that impression. This is playing right into the hands of the gun grabbers. Why give them the rope to hang you with?

4) If everyone knows you are armed, that means the bad guys know it too. That may deter some, but it won't deter all of them. If some guy wants to walk into a restaurant where you are eating and shoot up the place so he can go out like Charles Whitman or Cho Sung Hui, he may just shoot you first, before you even know what's happening. Or if it's an ordinary mugger, he may knock you over the head before you're even aware of the threat, so that he can take your gun, which I'm sure he'd love to have. Tactically, it's just far, far better if no one knows you're armed.

5) While I'm not going to encourage you to break the law, the fact is that if you're gun is concealed, you can probably get away with carrying it places where you are not supposed to (e.g. restaurants where alcoholic beverages are served, et al.). As long as you don't alert anyone to the gun's presence, no one need ever know, and if trouble breaks out, you are not caught unarmed. This is not possible if you are carrying openly.

All of these problems can be avoided by exercising your right to carry concealed. So why not do that? Unless you live in a state where concealed carry is not possible, and only open carry is, I really can't, for the life of me, see the up side to carrying in the open.

Guillermo
May 4, 2009, 02:38 PM
2) Carrying openly unnecessarily alarms people. Hiding our guns will continue this. Being around something makes you comfortable with it

Gun control advocates are engaged in a culture war

All the more reason to be seen as reasonable, real people that shop in the same stores, go to the same movies, attend the same churches. If the general public sees who we are it is less likely that we can be portrayed in the manner in which they would like to

If everyone knows you are armed, that means the bad guys know it too

True but most police stations are not targets. Bad guys like unarmed victims. Your chances of being a victim goes down if you they know you are armed, not up. If you are concealed you just another sheep in the bad guys eyes.

Billy Shears
May 4, 2009, 02:56 PM
2) Carrying openly unnecessarily alarms people.
Hiding our guns will continue this. Being around something makes you comfortable with it
Sorry, but no. If you think that someone who has minimal familiarity with firearms, and is made nervous by them, is going to have their fears allayed by seeing some guy in the local 7-11, or at the BP station with a pistol on his belt, you are dreaming.

It's time to be realistic here. Most people are not "gun guys." People who are "into" guns are a minority in society. People who carry on a regular basis are an even smaller portion of this minority, and people who carry openly are an even smaller percentage of that. Your chances of ever persuading enough people to carry openly to make it commonplace enough to cause most people to relax around guns is absolutely zero.

If everyone knows you are armed, that means the bad guys know it too
True but most police stations are not targets. Bad guys like unarmed victims. Your chances of being a victim goes down if you they know you are armed, not up. If you are concealed you just another sheep in the bad guys eyes.
Again, wrong. Police stations don't get targeted because they are filled with a small army of armed men. But individual officers can and do get targeted. We've had it happen right here on my department. We've lost more than one officer that way. And remember, most criminals are reluctant to shoot a cop because they are aware of the massive law enforcement manhunt that will ensue. No such deterrent operates on behalf of the armed citizen. Your chances of being a victim go down if the bad guys don't know whether or not you are armed, but think you might be. That's why the crime rate goes down once CCW laws get passed.

If the bad guy knows you're armed, and wants to kill you, he'll just make sure to get the drop on you. If he's determined to attack you, he'll make sure never to give you any chance to respond. You'll probably never know what hit you, like the unfortunate security guard about whom this article was written: http://privateofficernews.wordpress.com/2009/01/17/security-officer-shot-in-the-head-wwwprivateofficercom/

On the other hand, if you carry concealed, the creep won't know the threat you represent, and he won't know he needs to take such care against that threat. He may approach you thinking your are just an unarmed sheep, but since you aren't, you may just be able to turn the tables on him. If he knows you're armed, he'll never give you the chance to.

kmbrman
May 4, 2009, 03:34 PM
Open carry for whatever reason will always be feared by a certain number of the public. We have to recognize the potential danger in allowing all sorts of careless carrying as in poorly made holsters and etc. Only allowing retention types of holsters is a good idea. Someting like a Serpa holster, that insures that the weapon can't be seized by some nut or BG. while the person carrying ,is not watching. The anti's are just looking for some type of negligence on our part to put all over the TV.

thorazine
May 4, 2009, 08:13 PM
I'm really wondering...

What caliber does Steven Segal carry?

Next I just have to get the pony tail. =)

9mmepiphany
May 4, 2009, 08:23 PM
What caliber does Steven Segal carry?

...usually a .45 in a Tussey 1911

tactikel
May 4, 2009, 08:42 PM
I'm sure Mr Ayoob has carried everything from 9mm to .45 super (whatever caliber the manufacturer let him "evaluate"). He knows more about shooting/CCW than I ever will. I respect his opinion, but I still pack a .45 ACP.

I open carry a 20 ga shotgun 3-4 times a year; Its called hunting on public land, and everyone is polite, helpful, and friendly :D.
There was a time less than 100 years ago when one could walk into town with a .30-30 or a 12ga over their shoulder and not a head would turn,
when every gas station would sell ammo, and 10 cents would get you a handful of .22s. Those days are long gone :(

2ndamd
May 4, 2009, 09:16 PM
WOW!
I can not believe someone on the Highroad, just likend the open carry of a God given right, to the hate filled speech of the KKK. Really now? Come on people! Carrying a handgun in the open has the same vitriole of the some hate group's speech?

I can not disagree with your post more.

The 2ndamd gives us the right to bear arms. I would be proud to bear a handgun with open carry. Not for any agenda to influence, or teach, or show off to others. I would be proud to open carry because, we live in a free country and the open carry of one of those rights would be the epitome of American liberty.

You see, if some gay couple is holding hands while taking a walk in the park; does that mean they are doing it to flaunt their right to be love with whom they please? Not necessarily. They are merely enjoying each other's company.
The same would be true of me exercising my right to bear arms in the open. I just enjoy the company of my guns. I prefer the company of guns to most people to be honest. Well, most liberty hating people.

2ndamd
May 4, 2009, 09:21 PM
Back on topic,
I read an article by Mas where his back-up was a DAO SP101 in .357 mag.
But, I read he also uses a 442 customized by Teddy Jacobson @ Gunsite.
I also read that he has carried a Glock 22 with G27 for back-up.
You see, I think he carries quite a few different models at different times.

Guillermo
May 4, 2009, 09:41 PM
Your chances of ever persuading enough people to carry openly to make it commonplace enough to cause most people to relax around guns is absolutely zero.

Really? Amazing that guns are the ONLY thing that people are not more comfortable with exposure. Those gun thingies are pretty amazing in that they go against human nature

Your chances of being a victim go down if the bad guys don't know whether or not you are armed

Those pesky bad guys. When faced with an armed guy they go AGAINST all predatory nature and attack the strong. Wow...amazing that every other type of victim is better off appearing strong. Or maybe I should tell my RADS students to look as weak and meek as possible to avoid attack.

Guess those years of psychology were a waste of money. I think I am going to call to get a refund.

searcher451
May 4, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hate to point out the painfully obvious here, but ...

... the fourth post in this thread, from one of the moderators, suggested that the OP send a PM to the man in question and pose the question directly, seeing as how he's a High Road Forum member in good standing. We've gone on for three full pages in the meantime ... about what, exactly? Good grief, guys. If someone really wants to know or cares about this, send the PM and then post the answer.

Guillermo
May 4, 2009, 10:17 PM
We did kind of hijack.

I apologize

threefeathers
May 4, 2009, 10:56 PM
Why don't one of your guys who hijacked this thread do one discussing some of the questions that came up. Since I'm a beginner I don't feel comfortable doing that. I'm still scared of things that go boom.

Billy Shears
May 4, 2009, 11:10 PM
The 2ndamd gives us the right to bear arms. I would be proud to bear a handgun with open carry. Not for any agenda to influence, or teach, or show off to others. I would be proud to open carry because, we live in a free country and the open carry of one of those rights would be the epitome of American liberty.
And every person you alarm by doing so is a person more likely to decide that guns are dangerous and should be restricted, and vote accordingly. And many of those who are not actually alarmed will still roll their eyes at this Rambo wannabe they see before them, and then quietly pull the lever for the democrat promising reenact the assault weapons ban at the next election because they don’t trust these people they see as paranoid rednecks. It’s like waving a red flag at a bull.

Most people, who have little to no experience with violent crime, and have never been a victim of it (and that’s a majority of the population), simply don’t feel the need to be armed, and seldom understand why others do. It’s just like any other terrible tragedy – people to whom it has never happened don’t really believe, deep down where it counts, that it could happen to them. It’s something you read about that happens to other people. Rightly or wrongly, that’s the common perception. So when they see you carrying around a gun, they don’t see you as a prudent individual harmlessly exercising your constitutional rights. You look like Tackleberry from the Police Academy movies. If they’re not alarmed by you, they find you faintly absurd. Why on earth you would want gun owners to be regarded in this light is beyond me. It doesn’t help us. Quite the contrary in fact.

Recently we had this issue come up here in Norfolk. In August of 2007 a citizen openly carried a gun at Norfolk’s annual Harborfest event, held by the city in Town Point Park, knowing that he would be asked to leave the park. He refused and was arrested. He meant to be. He was a member of an organization determined to challenge the city’s policy of not allowing weapons to be carried on city property. His conviction was overturned and he sued the city, and the city ended up having to pay him $15,000 in the settlement.

It was a pyrrhic victory though. If you read the letters that got printed in the opinion section of the local paper afterward, you can see that the public reaction to this was negative. People thought he was an idiot, or a nut, or in some cases even a menace. And it doesn’t really matter, as far as that perception goes, that he was completely within his rights, innocent of any intent to do the slightest harm, and completely law abiding. The public still, for the most part, saw him negatively. And since this is so, how do you think those people will be more likely to vote next time a gun control bill comes up?

Rights can be infringed. It happens all the time. It’s hard enough defending our gun rights as it is. Alarming non-gun enthusiasts, or causing them to regard us with amusement or contempt will only make it harder.

If you want to carry, by all means exercise your right to do so. But the smart way to do it is with a concealed weapons permit. If it were only possible to carry openly, I’d be all for it then. But since you can carry concealed just as easily, and it’s more advantageous in almost every respect, why not do that?

Really? Amazing that guns are the ONLY thing that people are not more comfortable with exposure. Those gun thingies are pretty amazing in that they go against human nature
You’re missing the point by a country mile. Sure, it’s absolutely true that if enough people carried, that weapons were commonplace in society, people would become more nonchalant about them and feel less threatened by them. I don’t doubt that for an instant. The point is that there will NEVER be a time in our society where there are enough people walking around armed to make that happen. Once again: gun enthusiasts are a minority in society, and people who carry are an even smaller segment of that minority, and the number of people wanting to carry openly are a smaller portion still of that portion of that minority. Given this, there will never be more than a tiny fraction of the civilian population walking around with guns openly worn on their hips. And since this is so, the idea that you can make people more comfortably by openly carrying one is a pipe dream. The average person (outside of some rural areas where guns are more common) will, maybe, see one person every several years – if that often – with a gun and no badge to go with it. And because this is uncommon, and will ALWAYS remain uncommon, they will far more likely be alarmed by it than reassured.

Look guy, I’m not talking out of my @$$ here, I’m a cop, and I’ve been dispatched on more than one of these “person with a weapon” calls. I know beyond any shred of doubt what effect the sight of a gun in the hands of a civilian in a modern American city has on people. This is NOT speculation. I’m speaking from experience.

Those pesky bad guys. When faced with an armed guy they go AGAINST all predatory nature and attack the strong. Wow...amazing that every other type of victim is better off appearing strong. Or maybe I should tell my RADS students to look as weak and meek as possible to avoid attack.
Then explain why cops get ambushed and shot if criminals are universally afraid of armed men. Explain how that armed security officer in the article I cited was killed if criminals can be depended upon to shy away from an armed man.

Once again, I am not speculating, and I am not getting all my knowledge from books or from television. I have worked real crime scenes, and stood over real dead bodies. Some of those victims were armed, and it turned out that it was known by their murderers that they were armed. It didn’t stop the murder from taking place. If I want to kill you, and I know you’re carrying a gun, I’ll still kill you. I’ll just sneak up behind you and shoot you in the back of the head, and you’ll never know what hit you.

Sure being openly armed will deter some attacks. Absolutely it will. I don’t dispute it for a minute. But carrying yourself alertly, being aware of your surroundings and what people around you are doing, listening to that inner voice when it warns you something isn’t right, and staying out of bad areas will be a hundred times more effective at keeping you out of the crime statistics than carrying a gun openly will. And you can still carry concealed (in case trouble still finds you anyway, which it sometimes does) while doing it without ANY of the negative effects I enumerated in my first post on this thread (most of which you completely failed to address). There is no 100% solution, but on the balance, concealed carry will be far better all around than open carry, and as I said, if you can even legally buy a gun in the first place, you can almost certainly get a CCW permit, so why not just do that? You get all the benefits, and none of the risks.

Kind of Blued
May 5, 2009, 12:30 AM
Usually Mr. Ayoob will stop by around page two or three and step over all of the rotting carcases of semi-dead rumors to answer the question.

I probably would have given up on this one by now though. :)

I've read that he carries lots of different guns, often whatever he is testing at the moment. His job (partly) is to review defensive handguns a.k.a. "carry guns". How is he supposed to review a carry gun if he doesn't carry it?

johnnylaw53
May 5, 2009, 07:10 AM
what Billy Shears said

be safe

Borch
May 5, 2009, 11:09 AM
Billy Shears hit the nail squarely on the head.

noskilz
May 5, 2009, 12:53 PM
Why don't one of your guys who hijacked this thread do one discussing some of the questions that came up. Since I'm a beginner I don't feel comfortable doing that. I'm still scared of things that go boom.

Now THAT is funny stuff!

noskilz
May 5, 2009, 12:59 PM
What Billy Shears said too.

It seems that the most rational reason for civilian "open carry" is to prevent the unjust prosecution of the carrying concealed if one's weapon becomes inadvertently visible, or unconcealed. Since we no longer seem to live in a society where common sense has any place, I reckon we are left to fighting it out over the extreme versions of civility.

2ndamd
May 12, 2009, 09:52 PM
I was a cop for years too.
And I don't recall ever freaking out over the sight of a gun.
But Mas likend the mere visability of a holstered gun to bugery (sodomy).

I disagree with him and I disagree with your post entirely.

People have the right to do their thing in the privacy of their own home. But, the 2ndamd trumps other people's disgust at my right to carry an arm......IMHO.

But I see I will not get through to many of you. Sad days in America right now.

L-Frame
May 12, 2009, 10:11 PM
Boy has this thread been hijacked. But, that being said, I agree with Billy Shears and would never carry in the open. I look at it from a scumbag's perspective and 1) if I'm going to rob someplace I'm either shooting the guy with the gun or taking it from him at gunpoint first, 2) if I see him carrying open late at night and I really want a gun I'll walk by, say hi, turn around and split his skull and take it. I think you lose many advantages with open carry. And, I think it's a joke when I hear people say that it would never happen to them because they can always spot a bad guy. Nonsense.

SharpsDressedMan
May 12, 2009, 10:14 PM
Homcide is quite often a no brainer. No thought is given to risk, morality, consequences, etc. It just happens, and happens fast in may cases (first degree is another thing). The fear of someone else with a gun is not universally paramont; some might stop and be afraid, others might be seeing red and just continue shooting because the have a gun in their hand. To a rational person, the threat of a gun or retaliation has some merit, but because there are all types, in all frames of mind, then the results vary. I, for one, am on the verge of zero tolerance for those with zero tolerance of guns. I think I feel as 2ndAmd feels. I feel citizens that have fear and problems with exposed guns (NOT being pointed at them) seriously need education on what the Constitution is all about. Police departments when receiving calls about " a man with a gun" should be required to ask "is he pointing it at or shooting someone". Mere presence of a gun should not be a crime, but, for example, combine it with robbing a liquor store, well, that is another matter......

Billy Shears
May 12, 2009, 10:30 PM
I feel citizens that have fear and problems with exposed guns (NOT being pointed at them) seriously need education on what the Constitution is all about. Police departments when receiving calls about " a man with a gun" should be required to ask "is he pointing it at or shooting someone". Mere presence of a gun should not be a crime, but, for example, combine it with robbing a liquor store, well, that is another matter......
I'm afraid that's just not a practical suggestion. In the first place, you're simply never going to get everyone that educated with respect to firearms. And in the second place, while 9 times out of 10 there is no actual crime being committed, there is the tenth time. Occasionally, rare though it is, some knucklehead exposes a gun, sometimes deliberately, and sometimes unintentionally, and does turn out to be either intent on committing a crime, or someone, like a convicted felon, who is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. Police simply have no option but to respond to the call and deal with it as the situation demands, and that's not going to change.

Straight Shooter
May 12, 2009, 10:48 PM
Police departments when receiving calls about " a man with a gun" should be required to ask "is he pointing it at or shooting someone"

There is no way for a 911 operator to be able to assess the threat over the phone. They have to respond.

As far as the rest, I have to agree with Billy Shears. CC is just tactically a better option. I want the element of surprise on my side. That's a huge advantage.

Guillermo
May 12, 2009, 11:00 PM
All of these doomsday scenarios which include, but are not limited to, people freaking out at the sight of a gun, bad guys attacking armed people and police going Rodney King on lawful gun owners are pure fantasy.

How do I know that?

Because many states have open carry. As folks wander around, say, Arizona nobody is screaming and running to the cops. Bad guys are not targeting open carry people. Police are not calling the SWAT team even when an armed person walks into a bank.

You guys sound like the anti gunners every time new carry legislation is proposed. And like the "brady bunch" you are totally wrong.

Where the rubber hits the road, open carry is not that big of a thing. It is disconcerting that "gun people" act like it is.

jbkebert
May 12, 2009, 11:01 PM
I was just watching an older video of Massad Ayoob's i

Who???

I have seen him mentioned here a couple times but whats the deal with this guy.

Never mind I just googled him. Seems to have a pretty extensive background in firearms.

2ndamd
May 12, 2009, 11:10 PM
I think Billy is missing the point. I am not arguing the tactical merits of open carry. I am stating that the analogy that Mas wrote with likening open carry of a holstered handgun to buggery is not valid.

Holstered handgun = two gay men holding hands in public. Some people may disagree with this action, they are aware that it exists. But, it is not offensive enough to call the cops.

Buggery = handgun in hand and pointing it at people. They are both dangerous and lewd. A detriment to the public wellbeing in most people's eyes.

A holstered handgun does not live upto to the level of disgust of buggery. Mas is very wrong in his anology.
But I enjoy reading his other topics on guns. He just does NOT have the open carry issue in the right light.

Again:
Holster handgun = two gay men holding hands in public.

Buggery = handgun in hand and pointing it at people.

Holstered handgun wil never = buggery. In this regard I feel I have made my point. Almost every reasonable person I know would agree with me that a holstered handgun does NOT = buggery in the level of public disgust.

I feel you are very very wrong about this issue.

Ric
May 13, 2009, 05:00 PM
Mas Ayoob?
Gee, I wonder what he carries lately.

Dr_2_B
May 13, 2009, 09:37 PM
I have seen him mentioned here a couple times but whats the deal with this guy.

Yeah some of the respondents seem to think I'm some kinda worshiper or something. Nah. I like to keep up with him though because (#1) his journalistic skills are better than anyone else who writes this stuff and (#2) he's really on top of the latest information.

If you read the initial post, the question really had to do with seeing whether he was open to changing his mind when new information came out and specifically I wanted to know exactly when he had changed his mind on the .40 and 10mm.

Guillermo
May 13, 2009, 11:35 PM
Ayoob is a good writer, lots of common sense and not a lot of BS.

He is good at what he does.

And I still say that he, like us, probably has several carry guns. It depends on his wardrobe and situation.

BBQLS1
May 14, 2009, 02:01 PM
Lulz. This thread is hilarious.

Dr. Fresh
May 14, 2009, 03:52 PM
Ultimately, I agree with what Guillermo said above.

If you think you're more likely to be attacked while OCing, prove it. You can't because it doesn't happen outside the LEO world in statistically significant numbers. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find even one case in which an OCer was targeted for being armed.

As for the antis, it depends on your state. People OCing in Seattle will get a worse reaction than in Albuquerque.

sidheshooter
May 15, 2009, 12:30 AM
+1 on the "mas will make an impression in person". Criminy folks, ease up on the guy; he has indeed done a *lot* for firearms training (and I can personally vouch for his teaching).

FWEIW, he did once remark that he tends to rotate platforms every training tour/cycle just to keep his hand in with all the common types of carry weapon. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but he certainly does need to be proficient anything that a student might come to class with.

Again, FWIW

Ben86
May 15, 2009, 01:25 AM
It's been my observation that Mas owns many guns and carries many different guns for different situations and preferences. However, he seems to most often have the Ruger P345 on his hip.

What does it matter anyway? You have to find the gun/guns that work for you. I have a lot of respect for the man's skill and am still learning a lot from his books and hope to one day learn from his LFI.

I like to read his reviews on certain firearms but, I sure am not going to carry something just because Mas is carrying it. What a bunch of groupies! LOL!

Seth0811
May 15, 2009, 02:01 AM
I don't mean to continue with the hi-jacking, but I'm in the mood to post for once. I open carry, because I do not have a permit. I have been doing so every waking moment for the past five months. I've had one sporting goods store mishandle my weapon while trying to "safe" it, and I've had one walmart employee ask me to leave. Otherwise, every normal citizen that has asked about it (there have been six or seven), has been very polite and curious. For the record, the place in which I live isn't very rural anymore. What I will say, is that I have seen a shady homeless looking individual walk through a gas station door then turn right back around and leave after locking eyes with it. I can't state why he did, for a fact, but this is enough to make me feel good about being open. I would like the option of being concealed, but won't think twice about going open either.

BikerRN
May 15, 2009, 04:00 AM
I will admit to learning a lot from Mas over the years and will be forever grateful for his help on a Research Paper I did about 19 years ago.

With all that said, I at one time owned an Ayoob/Cannon Street L because it was a Massad Ayoob design. That gun is long gone, traded to pay bills. I read Mas' reviews, but pay more attention to his court room teachings than I do what gun is best. I don't think I've ever seen him come right out and say, "This is the perfect gun."

Granted, he has come close. Heck, I bought the Street L based upon his writing. :) He also like the 1911, as do I. I own a Glock, and for what it is, it's OK. I do have one gun that I've recently found that for me is what I consider to be the best concealed carry gun. I think Mas would be the first to say that no one gun will be perfect for everyone, but some are better at being OK for everyone than others.

With all that said I still think the OP, as others have stated, should PM Mas and ask him. I myself carry something I've not seen him write about, but I did hear that my using one at a recent L.F.I. class has him interested in one. :D That's the High Power.

Of course he's probably written about those too, I just haven't found it yet. Heck, he's probably carried one a time or two. He can carry whatever he wants. Some people switch guns often. Others, like myself, prefer to carry the same gun or platform for a legnth of time.

The man makes shooting look too easy. He has lots of range time and makes the unnatural act of shooting a handgun appear natural. In short, he is a joy to watch shoot.

OK, sorry for the rant. I just wanted to get my $0.02 in since it seemed like everybody else had. :D

BikerRN

gunnie
May 15, 2009, 08:16 AM
BikerRN,

"I will admit to learning a lot from Mas over the years..."

+1.

i feel that reading his book

"In The Gravest Extreme"

should be a pre-req for first time firearms owners.

gunnie

massad ayoob
May 15, 2009, 08:22 AM
Thanks to the participant who flagged me to come over here this morning.

My apologies for the late response. Just got home from a month on the road teaching, and haven't had much time for forum-roaming.

Department gun is still Ruger P345, and that's what I carry when working for them. We're still very happy with it.

As some have noted, I'm not a good role model for others because of the constant gun-changing. Part of that is testing carry guns as part of my job, and part of it is the need to stay current with the various designs.

Each of us needs to find what works for us in terms of hand to gun fit, size vis-a-vis concealability and dress code, experience, habituation, and related factors. For the last month, covering several states, I was accompanied by my Significant Other/Adult Supervisor, who was legal to carry most of those places. Since she prefers a Glock 9mm, it made sense for me to bring a couple of those too, allowing us to work out of the same pool of ammo, magazines, holsters, etc. During the leg of the journey that required flying commercially, that also allowed us to have more ammo with us (commercial aircraft ammo weight limit). My guns were G17 primary/G26 backup, and carry load for both of us was Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+.

On the open carry issue, I actually take a middle ground. I think every state should allow open carry, for two reasons. First, it's a hedge against a false accusation of intimidating others if the wind blows the coat open and reveals the concealed firearm. Second, in many jurisdictions it can take months to get a permit, and a non-shooter who becomes a stalking victim needs some option to take a crash course in what they need to know, and be armed while waiting for the CCW permit to come in. However, I feel that flamboyant open carry for its own sake -- "Look at me, I want to make a statement!" -- is likely to make more enemies than friends among the general voting populace. The tactical arguments on open carry versus CCW have been hashed out well here and there's little I could add to that.

Finally, Parisite commented, "I'll put my money on Jerry (Miculek) with a revolver than Ayoob with...anything."

+1 to that. I've shot against Jerry many times, and he generally kicks my butt. I only take consolation in the fact that he kicks most everybody else's, too.

Best to all,
Mas

amd6547
May 15, 2009, 01:16 PM
Mas--
Do you still use a Beretta 92 as your HD weapon, as stated in your book on Beretta?

massad ayoob
May 15, 2009, 01:41 PM
amd6547, I still have that gun (Jarvis Custom Beretta 92FS with Jarvis 6" barrel Magna-Ported, and dedicated SureFire light semi-permanently attached). Excellent pistol.

These days, my bedside handgun is generally whatever I was wearing for primary that day, with a light slipped onto the rail before bed if the gun's design is amenable.

Oro
May 15, 2009, 04:37 PM
Thanks very much for chiming in and stopping the rampant speculation. Thanks also for the thoughtful, detailed response, as usual. When we are both carrying, my "Adult Supervisor" and I already use the same caliber, too. I'll have to inform her of her new job title, though. ;)

Ben86
May 24, 2009, 12:41 PM
Mas, if you don't mind me asking why did your department choose the ruger p345 over a 1911?

I'm currently trying to decide between the two myself.

seeker_two
May 24, 2009, 04:58 PM
Massad Ayoob is his own primary weapon.....he carries Chuck Norris in an ankle holster as backup, but he's never had to use him....

:D j/k


I have the greatest respect for his work and writings....he's one I rank up there with Col. Cooper, Walt Rauch, and Michael Bane..... :cool:

If you enjoyed reading about "What caliber and make does Ayoob carry these days?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!