Questions for Black Bear hunters & use of bait


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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
May 1, 2009, 03:27 PM
OK, I've got a bug here. I've never hunted bear, but what I gather from observation is that SOME people who would otherwise believe that it's unethical to use bait for big game (deer for example), think that somehow it IS ethical to use bait for black bears, with the apparent excuse being "but there's no other way to get them; they're impossible to hunt without baiting". Although I do NOT *necessarily* have a per se problem with the use of bait for hunting animals if legal in your state, for ANY game, (hey if that's your thang, bait to your heart's content), what I do have a problem with is this "sliding scale" ethics thing or dichotomy-ethics if you will, that somehow it's wrong for deer, but OK for blackies. If the hunting is just too darn difficult without, then it's ok to use it. Because if the excuse is "but it's just toooo haaaaaard without bait", then I got news for you - in SOME places in this country, hunting deer without bait is just as difficult as hunting black bears without bait where you are, and still mighty damn hard WITH bait. Places where deer numbers are very low and/or hunting pressure is very high. The deer become just as nocturnal as any black bears.

So, I guess the question is, have any of yous who live in black bear country ever experienced this attitude yourself or among other hunters, of "bait is ok for bear", but then get holier-than-thou about bait for deer, or am I reading something into it that's not really there?

I'm also attaching a poll about actual prevalence of baiting for those who have actually hunted bear.

Also, please post where you live if you hunt black bear.

One other choice I should have included in poll is "Most of the time use bait, sometimes do not, but have never gotten one without bait."

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jaybr
May 1, 2009, 04:51 PM
I don't bear hunt, but no baiting at all allowed in VA, however we do hunt deer and bear with dogs.

EricTheBarbarian
May 1, 2009, 05:53 PM
bait isn't allowed for bear in NY, and I've never taken one either.

jim in Anchorage
May 1, 2009, 07:24 PM
Nature does the baiting in the fall here with Salmon carcass. However those bears are not edible,unless you like the smell of rotten fish. Still a little early yet, but in the spring they are quite huntable by hiking past timberline and glassing the south facing slopes where the first green sprouts show. Very sporting and enjoyable hunting. Baiting is legal here,but the only time I would use it is if I wanted a bear in a specific area,for example if you owned a cabin and wanted to hunt nearbye.

MCgunner
May 1, 2009, 08:49 PM
IMHO, nothing wrong with baiting where legal. Ain't legal in New Mexico, but dogs are. Or, at least that was the case 20 years ago. I don't keep up with NM law much anymore.

kilo729
May 1, 2009, 10:37 PM
I prefer to dip myself in honey and then fight the bear mano y mano.

moosehunt
May 1, 2009, 11:26 PM
I think the locale must be taken into consideration. I have hunted bear (I am surmising that the topic is Black Bears, not griz) in Alaska, spot and stalk, fun, somewhat challenging, but not hard. On the otherhand, observing Maine while moose hunting, I think it would be near impossible to get a bear in that method, even though the bear population is high. I lived in and hunted Colorado for 30+ years, and saw one bear, though I saw a lot of sign. Baiting may be justifiable there (I believe they did away with that a few years ago), and hound hunting is certainly justifiable, the down side of that is that few people choose (or have the time and temperment) to raise and train a pack of good (or even so-so) bear dogs. Personally, sitting in a blind over bait would be extremely boring to me, and I have no interest, but nothing against those who do. (I have no interest in sitting in a "deer stand" either). So, I suggest that it is not so much a matter of what's right or wrong, but what is needed or not needed, enjoyed or not enjoyed--so long as the resource is not overly exploited.

penny
May 2, 2009, 07:27 AM
I have only black bear hunted three times. First time spot and stalk in Montana in the spring by glassing the green grassey clear cuts. It was effective my husband and I each harvested our first black bear.

I have also hunted bear with dogs in Michigans UP and over bait. That seems to be the to best ways in that area of MI to hunt bears because the land is pretty flat and some big swamps.

I am not morally oppossed to baiting for bear or whitetail, but here in the lower peninsula of MI the baiting of deer became illeagle in 2008 so now I am learning to hunt deer in a different way.

rhino57
May 2, 2009, 07:51 PM
I have taken 4 bears during my 40 years of hunting, two in Virginia with a bow and two in Maine with a rifle. My bow kills were made while hunting for deer in Rappahanock county, bear season was also in and I got lucky. In Virginia you can't use bait at any time. One of the Bears dressed at 250lbs and one at 140lbs. I killed the two Bears in Maine with my 30-06 over bait, the land is so vast and the animals are spread out you need bait to bring them in, thats what I think anyway. The Main Bears seem to run a little smaller or maybe that was the area I was in. I can tell you whether shooting a Bear from a tree stand with your bow or a ground blind with your rifle your heart will pounds so hard and you knees will shake every time, I can't descibe quiet how it makes feel,you just owe it to yourself to try it.
:)

MikePGS
May 6, 2009, 04:01 PM
I live in MI and am an aspiring bear hunter. You can use bait for bear here, but not deer. However thats due to Chronic Wasting Disease, and not for any other reason as far as I know. That being said, I'd definitely like to try it without bait and if that doesn't work out, I might try to use bait ultimately. Really this is a hypothetical question for the next few years, since it'll probably take 3-4 years to accumulate enough points to get a bear permit anyways.

inclinebench
May 6, 2009, 04:12 PM
Along these lines. I live in Virginia, and I have bee hives out on my deer hunting land. Last year between muzzel loader and rifle, a bear destroyed my hives. Now, would shooting a bear destroying my hives, while it is bear season, be considered baiting? I got to think it would not be, but I put new hives out, and damn if I want to lose them again, so if I see a bear, and season is in, I plan on shooting it. I just dont want to break any laws. Any of you all have some input on this?

Sorry for the semi hijacking of the thread, but it seemed pertinant.

countertop
May 6, 2009, 04:40 PM
incline bench

I suspect you could take that bear any time of the year on a depredation/nuisance permit. But need to check with VA DGIF and VA Ag Dept.

Vern Humphrey
May 6, 2009, 05:08 PM
Baiting is legal on private land here in Arkansas. I find there are several keys to successful baiting:

1. Find the bear. Baiting must be done near where the bear normally travels.

2. Use the right bait. I find used grease poured over cheap dogfood works well.

3. Use a barrel -- chain it upright to a tree. Only a bear can get inside and out again.

4. Have a good stand or blind. Definitely down wind or cross wind of the bait. The bear will normally have a favored way to approach the bait, so it isn't hard to pick a good spot.

5. Have a good route into the stand or blind.

6. Bait early. Get the bear accustomed to the free lunch a couple of months before the season starts.

7. A camera is a good idea -- it will tell you when the bear vists the bait, and you can plan your hunt accordingly.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
May 7, 2009, 12:37 PM
How do these bad boys taste?

I prefer to dip myself in honey and then fight the bear mano y mano.

Now that's funny right there! :D

kanook
May 7, 2009, 01:15 PM
I hunt in NE Georgia. I have seen two bear and couldn't get my firearm ready for a clean shot so I let them walk. The first time I left my wife on her own she had 2 cubs and then mom for about 15 minutes at the base of her stand, then had a boar come in later and couldn't see to get a clear shot. It was at dusk. Now we both carry a bear handgun w/o a scope.:D

SHOOT1SAM
May 7, 2009, 10:15 PM
This is my 2nd season bear hunting over bait. Had a buddy get me started last year as he was wanting to film a kid taking a bear. We took my daughter up several times and never saw anything, although the baits were getting hit regularly. Wouldn't you know it; the one time my daughter was just too pooped to go was the one time a bear came into the bait while we were there.

I took her, and learned some things from it:

#1-when a bear comes towards & retreats from the bait several times, it is likely a small bear trying to make sure a large bear is not at the bait.

#2-one of the reasons for using a 55-gallon barrel is to have something to judge the size of the bear against (we didn't have one last year).

#3-bears are hard to judge until you get some experience-we thought it was much larger than it actually was. After I shot it, I told a different buddy who was with me that it must have deflated.

As for the OP's question about sliding ethics, I have not experienced this in regard to other big game species. However, to those who tell me baiting is wrong, I ask them if they like to fish. As almost everyone who has told me baiting is wrong likes to fish, I ask them if they use a worm or some other bait, or if they just drop a line in with an empty hook. They are never able to explain the difference to me.

Sam

Supertac45
May 8, 2009, 06:36 PM
Hunting is hunting in my book. Baiting is nothing more than a cheap game farm hunt.

Vern Humphrey
May 8, 2009, 06:45 PM
So as the fellow said, how do you feel about fishing?;)

SHvar
May 10, 2009, 03:26 AM
I didnt think using bait for deer or bear is ethical or legal anywhere in the US (In Canada they hunt any predators with bait, Im sure deer also, for tourist money mainly), in fact I think when it comes to deer or bear, putting food out less than 10 days before a hunting season can get your license taken away, fines, and if you have any firearms on you, they get confiscated never to be returned, your vehicle confiscated in PA, and anything in it that can relate to hunting.
I looked up state hunting laws with the use of dogs, every state I read the laws specified that hunting deer with dogs has been illegal for many years.
Most states thought that its in the best interest in the sport of hunting, and to prevent the sport from turning into a professional business to profit from native wildlife.
There are a few states that allow treeing bears with dogs.
Personally I think if your eating what you hunt, and making use of the rest of it, then by all means do what you do.
Hunting predators is purely for sport, nothing to do with feeding your family, if you cant get them without bait, then go back to hunting something easier.

countertop
May 10, 2009, 04:13 AM
I didnt think using bait for deer or bear is ethical or legal anywhere in the US
Hunting is hunting in my book. Baiting is nothing more than a cheap game farm hunt.


Always love how folks have wonderful opinions - which are fine as opinions, but don't mean squat to anyone else.


I grew up in New Jersey. Live in Virginia. Folks in New Jersey are shocked to hear that other states allow you to carry guns, to hunt with rifles, to buy guns without onerous registration processes or state permission. Most have opinions on what appropriate firearms laws should be. I wouldn't wish their opinion on anyone.

I dont hunt over bait in Virginia. I've never been to a game farm (though I have shot upland birds on a shooting preserve) But I do hunt hogs over bait on occasion. We've also sent dogs out after hogs. Some folks in Virginia (not I) use dogs to round up deer before shooting.

And really, even if you take it away - placing a feeder out for deer 350 days a year is just the same as baiting - whether you remove it 10 days before hand or not.

But guess what, in Virginia we can't hunt on Sundays. Lots of people here argue ITS NOT ETHICAL to hunt on Sunday. Would you like them to impose their ethics on you???

buck460XVR
May 10, 2009, 01:13 PM
I've hunted bear with bait and with the use of dogs. Some folk trash both methods. With the over abundance of bear in the area and the lack of any other effective means to control them, unlike deer, I see no other viable options.

ADKWOODSMAN
May 10, 2009, 01:21 PM
Black bears here in the adirondacks are found only where there is plenty of food. Black cherry trees, when they drop the cherries in the fall is the place to be.

Also around camp grounds and tent sites or small cabins on state trails where bears are used to finding garbage that hikers leave. These have always been good spots for hunts.

Vern Humphrey
May 10, 2009, 05:34 PM
Some folks in Virginia (not I) use dogs to round up deer before shooting.
Actually, that's not how it works. The dogs are released in a large area -- usually swampy, brushy, etc. Huners take up stands on logical escape routes, and the deer come drifting out about ten or fifteen minutes ahead of the dogs.

countertop
May 10, 2009, 11:25 PM
Actually, that's not how it works. The dogs are released in a large area -- usually swampy, brushy, etc. Huners take up stands on logical escape routes, and the deer come drifting out about ten or fifteen minutes ahead of the dogs.

First of all, Congrats on post 10,000!!!

Yeah, that generally what happens. The guys I know who do it though have the dogs trained to drive the deer to certain locations. They use natural funnels to set the deer up. Its pretty much a slaughter at the back end. But then, those guys are generally hunting purely for food and sustenance and not for trophy's. I don't think venison tastes so great after the deers been running, but it ensures food on the table.

SHvar
May 10, 2009, 11:59 PM
What states allow baiting bears for hunting them?
What states allow baiting deer or using dogs?
I mean legally, not just because someone there does it.
My opinion was that its not ethical to hunt deer with bait, nor is it ethical to hunt predators with bait. The facts as I recall are that most if not all states laws say it is illegal to hunt deer with dogs, and baiting is not legal in hunting seasons.
I have no problem with baiting hogs, or using dogs for hogs, they are not native species, and are a nuisance everywhere in the US.
If you cant hunt it with your own physical and mental abilities without the use or dogs, bait, etc you need to find an easier hobby.
The use of these things were made illegal in PA simply to take away any motive to profit from native wildlife.

stevelyn
May 11, 2009, 07:01 AM
Baiting for black bears is allowed in Alaska in the spring only, although black bear season is pretty much open year round with a limit of three in most GMUs.

You have to register and post your bait station with your contact information. ADF&G has a standard weather resistant cardstock form for doing this.

Your bait site has to be located a 1/4 mile from any roadway and 1 mile from any dwelling. Bait stations have to be dismantled and cleaned up by close of the baiting period.

When I lived up in the interior, I had a bait stand when I had time to screw around with it. I primarily bowhunted for them and a bait station is an excellent way to position them at a known range for a clean kill. It's legal during the prescibed season and I don't have a problem with the ethics of it.

Other years when I wasn't baiting I'd hunt them more as a target of opportunity when I was running the river and sloughs.

I live on the eastern edge of Aleutian Hell now (AKPEN). We only have brown bears down this way so baiting isn't allowed.

Vern Humphrey
May 11, 2009, 11:16 AM
The guys I know who do it though have the dogs trained to drive the deer to certain locations. They use natural funnels to set the deer up.
My experience has been that dogs cannot drive deer. What they do is keep th deer moving -- slowly, and well ahead of the dogs -- and the deer follow the natural escape routes.

What states allow baiting bears for hunting them?
Arkansas, for one.

What states allow baiting deer or using dogs?
Arkansas, for one.

SHvar
May 12, 2009, 12:56 PM
I had no doubts about Alaska allowing it, Arkansas go figure.
Inuits hunt polar bears with their sled dogs, inuit sled dogs will attack a polar bear and not back down, that is a tough pack of dogs, then after the fight and kill, will share in eating the kill, as well transport the kill for hundreds of miles. In parts of Asia Laika dogs are used to hunt up to 1000 lb brown bears.
Up until the 60s hunting deer with horses, dogs, and semiauto rifles was allowed in much of the country until companies selling deer products were wiping out herds.
There is a difference between someone who hunts for sport or profit, and those who are feeding themselves or their family with whats killed.
The discussion about coyotes and fur in another thread and the low value of fur in general has to do with demand, but again why not make use of such a good fur.
Simply put, if your gonna shoot it, make use of it, dont waste it just to hunt it.

Vern Humphrey
May 13, 2009, 08:31 AM
Up until the 60s hunting deer with horses, dogs, and semiauto rifles was allowed in much of the country until companies selling deer products were wiping out herds.
No, the deer were almost wiped out early in the 20th Century, primarily by habitat loss. By the 60s, state game and fish commissions were re-stocking and caring for game animals. Deer, turkies, elk and black bear were imported from states that had them, and re-established in states that didn't.

dogrunner
May 13, 2009, 10:34 AM
The major issue in using dogs, either for bear or deer, is NOT a matter of game 'depredation, rather it's an issue of landowner conflict. Truly some areas are entirely too small to permit such methods without a lot of controversy and in fact, in some areas the very terrain might prove it to be relatively ineffective.

From what I could determine, as I am a deer dog user, most of the push to prohibit use dogs for deer began as a direct result of the totally uncontrolled market hunting that existed at the end of the 19th into the early years of the 20th centurys. NY apparently outlawed such in about 1893 or 94, West Va. in about 1922 or so.........I do know that in the latter State the deer population was so depressed that there was no open season for several years.
Once the method was pronounced illegal it became culturally unacceptable in those regions, even tho it just might NOT have any negative effect on game populations!!

From what I know the use of dogs is still a legitimate method in Ontario and in the coastal U.S. South....I know it's legal in Florida north thru Eastern Va.....

And by the way, if you think it's easy then you "just ain't done it".........without doubt it is the most difficult way to take a good buck you'll ever experience........and yeah, I can state that with some authority having hunted in the Appalachians where I was born and also from experience in Alaska where I lived for three years...........

One big issue underlying this sort of discussion is the apparent attitude of "we don't do it that way", therefore its
somehow unethical or "wrong"............and that only serves to divide us as a group that has very similar interests, that IS wrong..........

By the way, deer driven by dogs move just as quickly as those dogs push them. I have seen deer stop to browse while a pack was trying to unravel its trail just a few hundred yards away........now, put a pack of hot running walkers on him and they are gonna' push the devil out of him, but he'll stop, let the dogs run by and go back the way he came.......another trick is to find a wad of does and yearlings and run into them.........90% of the time those dogs split and the whole affair goes to hell in a handbasket............it AIN'T easy!

Vern Humphrey
May 13, 2009, 03:10 PM
The major issue in using dogs, either for bear or deer, is NOT a matter of game 'depredation, rather it's an issue of landowner conflict. Truly some areas are entirely too small to permit such methods without a lot of controversy and in fact, in some areas the very terrain might prove it to be relatively ineffective.
Absolutely -- and that's not limited to hunting dogs, either. Too many dog owners think they have no responsibility for their dogs, saying, "Well, the dog doesn't know where the property lines are."

But the owner does. And the owner is responsible for the dog. So contact landowners. Make friends with surrounding landowners -- bring a bottle of burbon or whatever, and get permission before you turn a dog loose.

countertop
May 13, 2009, 04:38 PM
Up until the 60s hunting deer with horses, dogs, and semiauto rifles was allowed in much of the country until companies selling deer products were wiping out herds.

So are you criticizing the use of semi autos as being unethical now along with baiting??

Please tell me, what states don't allow semi autos? Cause everywhere I hunt outside the Northeast has no problem with semi autos (if they allow center fire rifles - Iowa, for instance, doesn't generally allow center fire rifles but you can use a semi auto in the small part of the state where center fire's are allowed)

Where do you live???

And as others have pointed out, market hunting isn't what impacted deer herds. Of course, for that matter - there hasn't been any market hunting for deer in well over 70 years since all meat sold for consumption needs to be slaughtered in a USDA inspected facility (and the 40 acres out back most definitely is not).

countertop
May 13, 2009, 04:44 PM
And by the way, if you think it's easy then you "just ain't done it".........without doubt it is the most difficult way to take a good buck you'll ever experience........and yeah, I can state that with some authority having hunted in the Appalachians where I was born and also from experience in Alaska where I lived for three years...........

Great article on running bear with dogs in this months American Hunter magazine (or whatever the NRA Hunting Mag is). Yes, it made it clear there ain't nothing easy about it. Got a good adrenaline rush reading it.

stevelyn
May 13, 2009, 10:50 PM
There is a difference between someone who hunts for sport or profit,

Where are you getting this idea? Sport hunters use the meat just the same as anyone else. What do you mean hunt for profit? Profitting from wildlife or wildlife parts is prohibited.

SHvar
May 14, 2009, 02:02 AM
I live in PA.
By profiting I mean what the law here and some other states says, in other words if you sell or trade any parts, products, there of the native wildlife, its illegal, its profitting from native wildlife.
Even if the law said business cannot sell products from native wildlife, individual people were doing so, thats a profit motive. They made it illegal to stop the individuals who were making money from selling meat, hides, etc.
Im not against semiautos being used, Im not sure where anyone read that into what I wrote. Someone is really reaching for excuses to argue on that one. Heck if you wanted to hunt wild boar with a semiauto and shot them by the herd then by all means go ahead, they arent native wildlife.

"There is a difference between someone who hunts for sport or profit, and those who are feeding themselves or their family with whats killed."

Exactly what I meant, there is a big difference between someone who is hunting to feed their family, and someone who is either hunting for some form of profit or another, or an individual who is hunting for sport (ie, a hobby).

Before anyone thinks that Im against sport hunting, NO IM NOT. But if you are sport hunting then do so in a sporting manner. Too many people post before actually reading what was posted.
And yes during the 60s professional hunters were using horses, dogs, and semiauto rifles to hunt herds of deer wiping them out to make a profit. This is why some states made these things illegal for hunting.
There is a big difference between the guy who has to hunt to feed himself and his family (as I mentioned Inuit hunters, and other subsistance hunters), and the guy who has a hobby of deer hunting once a year and eats the meat from the hunt.
If the use of dogs in hunting is not so easy, then why do so many subsistance hunters use dogs to hunt?
Come on now, humans domesticated dogs far before any other animal simply because they have such superior hunting skills, speed, strength, tracking ability, and they are so much like us by living and working together in family groups. If it wasnt for dogs helping us hunting we would have been stuck along the coastal areas of the world fishing for thousands of more years.
In some places property borders may have effected these laws, but not most.

dogrunner
May 14, 2009, 10:54 AM
SHvar:

FYI, don't know where you might be referring to re: the dog/horse/semi issue, but the Lacy act , passed in about the first decade of the 20th Century essentially outlawed commercial interstate transport of illicit game........in fact it actually effected the end of market hunting as it had been practiced for hundreds of years in this Country.

Far as ease of hunting goes, all three of the methods you describe are still in use here in Florida and truth be told there is no effect on the game population whatever if done properly. Point of fact, our State wildlife code generally permits the take of two deer per day with no season limit.........our general gun season runs about three months. The take of antlerless deer is generally limited to two days around Thanksgiving............other regulations do apply on management areas and special either sex permits can be acquired on leased or private lands.

Of course no law will stop the outlaw......by definition those sorts will do what they wish regardless of any prohibition.

None of the methods you deplore are any less sporting than sitting in a tree stand over a corn field or bait dispenser, or for that matter engaging in a man deer drive such as is done in Penna. or sitting over a garbage pile waiting for that bear!

I use an autoloading BAR and substitute a small pickup for the horse.............which'l carry a LOT more dog power than that horse would! The object being to first to find that deer, get him (usually her) up (jumped) and hopefully be able to head the animal off and get a shot..........90% of the time it turns out to NOT be something you can shoot, but that's the challenge.

Truth is tho, that style of hunting requires several thousand acres to be enjoyed properly and safely and of course it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Remember, just because the shoe doesn't fit you doesn't mean I might not like it!

SHvar
May 14, 2009, 12:38 PM
"Lacy act , passed in about the first decade of the 20th Century essentially outlawed commercial interstate transport of illicit game"

It didnt outlaw sales inside state borders, and it doesnt outlaw the sales of native wildlife inside the country between states.
I know this well from being a long time reptile hobbyist, state laws are the only thing preventing sales of native wildlife, or parts/products there of.
Aside from the sate laws the CITES laws are currently the only regulations to prevent native wildlife from leaving its home areas, and to control the numbers legally that do move around for sales, trading.
If the lacey act effected these things or prevented sales we would have not had any fur industry since the law came out period.

Again, where did I say anything against hunting with semiautos? Nowhere, read before you respond.

Depending on the dogs, and how they are trained Im sure it could be a bit difficult, but there are plenty of dogs that will simply exhaust the deer, or take down a deer on their own, how sporting for the hunter can that be?
I have no doubts that either of my 2, or both together would hunt deer without me, given the chance to do so.
I know coon hunters who have trouble with a few dogs that would rather chase deer than coons, some that did have trouble, not any more.
In PA baiting is illegal, in fact you can lose your car/truck, gun, knife, and every piece of equipment you have with you for hunting illegally as evidence then to be auctioned off later once your found guilty.
I know about man drives, and those who hunt overlooking cornfields, but drives definitely produce more results. Setting up a tree stand in a well traveled area (well traveled deer trails) seems to be more consistant.
The deer here know when hunting season starts and ends, they avoid fields until night time, and spend time near houses, and roads instead.

Vern Humphrey
May 14, 2009, 01:16 PM
Where are you getting this idea? Sport hunters use the meat just the same as anyone else. What do you mean hunt for profit? Profitting from wildlife or wildlife parts is prohibited.
The proper term is "Market Hunting." Market hunters include the old buffalo hunters, who almost wiped out the buffalo and duck hunters who used punt guns -- basically small cannons stuffed with shot and fired into the midst of rafts of ducks at night.

FlyinBryan
May 14, 2009, 01:47 PM
How do these bad boys taste?

they just take small bites and slowly chew, with deliberate delayed swallowing.


ive never hunted bear, but i am not against shooting one if its attacking me or in the act of committing a class c misdemeanor or greater.

dogrunner
May 14, 2009, 01:55 PM
SHvar.............the Lacy act DOES prohibit the INTERSTATE sale of ILLEGALLY taken wildlife! .........Read it.

Cites is a far, far more recent bit of legislation with essentially the same object but in far more specific terms. I believe 'cites' is an acronym for 'convention on INTERNATIONAL trade in endangered species' the Lacy act is a United States law......correct me if I'm wrong.......I do know that such a tag is a requirement when 'gator hunting is done in Fla..both are designed to prevent illegal trade in wildlife.

Y'know, I wouldn't presume to tell a N. Dakota pheasant hunter what is and isn't hard, cause I've never hunted there or taken that kind of game, never shot an elephant on a safari and consequently can't find any rational way to criticise the way it's done! Have hunted deer, here and in the mountians, and shot more than my share of caribou and a couple of bears, so I do have some perspective on the hows and whys of certain methods, depending on the region......Sometimes its well to reflect on the old saying of 'when in Rome'.....................!

Sorry, I just have a problem with folks that think there is somehow something essentially unsporting about a regionally traditional and time honored method that have never done it.

Kinda brings to mind the bias against the Alaskan that uses aircraft to shoot wolves.............wherein there IS no other reasonably effective method of control!

Far as dogs catching a deer goes, I'd submit that it is nearly impossible for a healthy deer to be brought down by a dog pack.....true, they'll take a sick or juvenile one.......but I have NEVER seen or known of a deer to be caught that wasn't wounded.........and that's not with a slow movin' coon hound, rather with July's and Walkers, breeds that will 'smoke' Black and Tans or similar breeds.

Regardless, I can't convince you, but if you are ever down this way in Nov. or Dec. I'd be glad to SHOW you...........you might learn something and leave with a bit more respect.

TedP
May 14, 2009, 01:55 PM
What states allow baiting bears for hunting them?

Alaska, Arkansas, Idaho, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Utah, Wisconsin and Wyoming allow hunting for bear over bait in one way or another.

dogrunner
May 14, 2009, 01:59 PM
SHvar.............the Lacy act DOES prohibit the INTERSTATE sale of ILLEGALLY taken wildlife! .........Read it.

Cites is a far, far more recent bit of legislation with essentially the same object but in far more specific terms. I believe 'cites' is an acronym for 'convention on INTERNATIONAL trade in endangered species' the Lacy act is a United States law......correct me if I'm wrong.......I do know that such a tag is a requirement when 'gator hunting is done in Fla..both are designed to prevent illegal trade in wildlife.

Y'know, I wouldn't presume to tell a N. Dakota pheasant hunter what is and isn't hard, cause I've never hunted there or taken that kind of game, never shot an elephant on a safari and consequently can't find any rational way to criticise the way it's done! Have hunted deer, here and in the mountians, and shot more than my share of caribou and a couple of bears, so I do have some perspective on the hows and whys of certain methods, depending on the region......Sometimes its well to reflect on the old saying of 'when in Rome'.....................!

Sorry, I just have a problem with folks that think there is somehow something essentially unsporting about a regionally traditional and time honored method that have never done it.

Kinda brings to mind the bias against the Alaskan that uses aircraft to shoot wolves.............wherein there IS no other reasonably effective method of control!

Far as dogs catching a deer goes, I'd submit that it is nearly impossible for a healthy deer to be brought down by a dog pack.....true, they'll take a sick or juvenile one.......but I have NEVER seen or known of a deer to be caught that wasn't wounded.........and that's not with a slow movin' coon hound, rather with July's and Walkers, breeds that will 'smoke' Black and Tans or similar breeds.

Regardless, I can't convince you, but if you are ever down this way in Nov. or Dec. I'd be glad to SHOW you...........you might learn something and leave with a bit more understanding.

Art Eatman
May 14, 2009, 02:08 PM
"And yes during the 60s professional hunters were using horses, dogs, and semiauto rifles to hunt herds of deer wiping them out to make a profit."

I'd have to see some definitive proof for that. The two-bucks-only, no-does law was in effect in Texas before I was born--and I was born in 1934.

The pro hunter deal was never written about in the "Big Three" outdoor magazines of the late 1940s and 1950s--which I devoured with great regularity, nor in other periodicals with articles about outdoor doings. And no comments about that sort of thing from such as Keith or Ruark, et al.

SHvar
May 15, 2009, 01:15 AM
Really you think that a dog cant take down a healthy deer, Ive known many that have, and have seen it happen.
Im not talking about injured, or small deer, does, Im talking a big buck.
Ive personally seen 2 Siberian Huskies kill healthy deer which they ran down and attcked until the deer was dead.
I know of 2 dalmations who have killed a few deer, one suprised his owner by taking one in plain view right in front of him once.
Ive seen German shepard mixes take down deer, and a lab that killed a few.
Ive known of many larger dogs that have sucessfully taken live healthy bucks by themselves.
The only example I know of that was an unhealthy deer, was a pitbull that could not catch one if he tried, but he killed one.
Heck the most damgerous animal in captivity humans keep are horses, Ive known several dogs that attacked and killed horses in open fields, healthy younger adult horses.
Never underestimate a dog that still has some of what nature gave the breed for survival.
By the way, wolves in Alaska, why do they need controlled, no real reason that is supported by science has ever been shown. In fact they make the population of their prey healthier, stronger, reproduce faster, and less diseases. The real reason is they make the herds move, they keep them healthy and make them harder for humans to hunt.
It has more to do with ancient lies about them and biblical stories than truth to why people dislike wolves.
Simple fact is that wolves are natures most talented hunting machine, they are so difficult to hunt, to trap, and to get close enough to do either where they are hunted that losers in aircraft run them until exhausted then shoot them at point blank range.
Also the federal law says that you cannot take a motorized vehicle into many areas they inhabit, so Alaskans fly over Federal land in aircraft instead of taking horses or going on foot for many days to seek them out because its easier.
I dont believe the lies about aerial hunting of wolverines, bear, wolves, etc. You can only spread the crap on so thick before you slip in it and fall.
At least in Canada they hunt them with bait, in heated blinds, not from airplanes.
You see the law prohibits the use of snowmobiles to chase them now, and other motorized vehicles, so lazy people use aircraft instead.

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