When do you begin to Triple-Tap?


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Skunkabilly
January 17, 2003, 04:24 PM
9mm? .380? At what point do you begin to put three shots on target, just to be sure?

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Jesse H
January 17, 2003, 04:33 PM
I'd just keep shooting until they stop, regardless of caliber.

10-Ring
January 17, 2003, 04:54 PM
I'd just keep shooting until they stop, regardless of caliber

...and pray you've got another mag

Alvin Hammer
January 17, 2003, 05:01 PM
Regardless of caliber, if two to the center of mass hasn't got the bad guy's attention one might wonder if more hits will have any greater affect. At this point one might go to the Mozambique Drill.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
January 17, 2003, 05:14 PM
Would that be the Terminator or Robocop???------lol

Sven
January 17, 2003, 05:31 PM
When your target is methed up and has two guns pointed at you.

T.Stahl
January 17, 2003, 05:37 PM
You mean triple-tap as a SOP? No matter how the target reacts to the first two hits?
Uh, I think if I had to expect that I'll need at least three hits to stop the thread, I'd choose a different caliber in the first place.
I guess I'd triple-tap from the start if I'd have to use a .22lr, but definitely not with a 9mm.

Or, if I'd triple-tap with a 9mm, I'd do so with any other caliber, too. ;)

Smoke
January 17, 2003, 06:26 PM
Does 2 to the pump, 1 to the head count?

If he still gets up I think I'll just wet myself.

Actually though, shoot until the threat is stopped whatever the caliber. Start with a double tap, then repeat as necessary. Double, double, double.... ( I can do this 7 times before a mag change)

Alvin Hammer
January 17, 2003, 06:48 PM
Again, regardless of caliber, if the bad guy is not paying attention to the first two in the center of mass why do you think he'll pay any attention to further shots in the chest? The third shot goes into the eye/nose cavity. This area has no bone to deflect a round as it passes through the brain and takes out the upper part of the spine.

Bainx
January 17, 2003, 06:59 PM
If two shots center-of-mass don't do it, you might suspect that the goblin is wearing body armor. You know what to do next....

Alvin Hammer
January 17, 2003, 07:07 PM
Body armor will stop most pistol rounds. Some heavy winter jackets can cause hollow points to open up and slow down real fast. Better start shooting somewhere else.

Blueduck
January 17, 2003, 10:02 PM
My training (2 COM then 1 to head) was not so much concerned with body armor but rather drugs/psycho etc. Body's basically in shock at that point, adding to it won't help in time. If two has not gotten their attention it's time for the head was thier suggestion.

About the only thing I noticed our trainers and Chuck Taylor agreeing on ;)

WESHOOT2
January 18, 2003, 09:56 AM
I use the 'as-many-as-I-got-hitting-something' technique.

I figure eventually they're gonna get tired carrying all that extra weight.

I don't know many who have the mental discipline to: count shots; actually PERFORM a Mozambique drill; hit what they're aiming at under dire stress; practice correctly.

Me? I moved someplace safer :D

Alvin Hammer
January 18, 2003, 10:10 AM
Once one is in the middle of a shoot, moving to a safer place might not be an option.

Jeff Cooper challenged us to count our shots. Even with 7 round magazines it is very difficult to not run dry. We did our best because getting caught with one's slide locked open on the firing line was frowned upon. His point was quickly learned to reload at every chance.

The Mozambique Drill was actually developed in the heat of battle. A soldier armed with a handgun was being shot at by another soldier with an AK-47 - full automatic. So far the fellow with the AK was missing. The fellow with the handgun had hit the other one several times in the chest, but to no effect. He then took careful aim and placed one round in the eye socket bring the fight to a stop. This was done in the open, at close range, with the other guy firing full auto' right at him. "One cannot miss fast enough to catch up."

para.2
January 18, 2003, 01:33 PM
"When in doubt, empty the magazine.":what:

Alvin Hammer
January 18, 2003, 02:17 PM
The problem with just emptying the magazine into the bad guy is the possibility there might be more than one bad guy. Again, if the bad guy has not been impressed with what you have shot him with, then you might want to move your shots to a more vulnerable location.

If you are confronted with half a dozen goblins in a parking lot. You may not have enough ammo to give each one two in the center of mass. One must keep thinking.

LWCmdr45
January 18, 2003, 04:40 PM
I have been taught (and, in turn, teach) that if a double-tap to center mass hasn't stopped an assailant, shoot for the hips. A hit in the hip area (usually unprotacted by armor), will cause a BG to lose his footing and is less likely to miss than a head shot.

Steve

coonan357
January 18, 2003, 07:18 PM
when in doubt ,empty it out ..:uhoh:

M1911Owner
January 19, 2003, 12:39 AM
What's a Mozambique drill?

sm
January 19, 2003, 03:43 AM
quote:
What's a Mozambique drill?
...
2 COM then 1 to the head.

sm
January 19, 2003, 03:48 AM
WS2:
Yep I hear ya. I plan for the 2 COM 1 for the head...but just my luck BG will have a motorcyle helmet on.

Going for what's available...including femoral artery, carotid artery...stop only when threat stopped. Yeah extra mag(s) guns.

'it ain't cheating if it works-its ingenuity'

4thHorseman
January 19, 2003, 04:11 AM
As ong as the BG is a threat.
Don't stop squeezin' till they stop weezin'.:D

Blackhawk
January 19, 2003, 12:34 PM
When do you begin to Triple-Tap? Immediately after the Double-Tap.

He who hesitates is lost... :D

Tamara
January 19, 2003, 01:52 PM
...I use the "WESHOOT2 Technique": I'd keep shooting until I run out of Bad Guys, Tamaras, or Ammunition.

KY Moose
January 19, 2003, 03:46 PM
When do you begin to Triple-Tap?

We were taught triple-taps in LEO pistol training. Three shots to center mass, step to the side (either left or right) and assess the situation.

JeepDriver
January 19, 2003, 05:07 PM
I practice at 25 ft. with my Sig 239 that way. (9mm loaded w/ 124 +p Gold Dot's)

I double tap the chest then shift my point of aim to the head and fire. There is usualy around a second, maybe less, between the chest shots and the head shot.

Gewehr98
January 20, 2003, 12:10 AM
And you're sitting there deliberating the caliber of what's in your hand, and whether or not you need to double, triple, or quadruple tap the threat based on the caliber decision... You're in deep kimchee.

Shoot until the threat is neutralized. Then take a deep breath to regain your composure before you get your court date.

twoblink
January 20, 2003, 04:52 AM
I practiced "4 to the body, 1 to the head" drills before.

I've also practiced "4 to the body, 1 to the head, 2 to the hips"

The body is the "power house", if you have no power (people in the PRK ought to know) then you cannot move.

The head is the "control center" if you have no control center, the rest of the body is useless.

The hips are the "motors" of the body, if you have no hips, you cannot stand and you cannot move.

Shut down the power, shut down the control center, and then shut the motor off, I generally go in that order, YMMV.

WESHOOT2
January 20, 2003, 06:00 AM
This is not moot; real life lessons teach us that humans getting shot do not act like TV actors.
They often require multiple perforations before recognizing their situation.

And NOBODY flies off their feet.

Train yourself to hit what's available, repeatedly, continuously, until CONVINCED that it's safe to stop.
Then call the police and tell them when they arrive that it's the GOOD GUY who's (still) standing.

Police officers may have slightly different gun-emptying needs.

New_comer
January 20, 2003, 11:19 AM
When my double tap doesn't stop a perp... or

When there's three against me... ;):evil:

Skunkabilly
January 20, 2003, 12:07 PM
Roger. "Shoot to stop the attack" ;)

Gila Jorge
January 20, 2003, 12:23 PM
In bear or any big game hunting: continue to shoot until all movement stops! Maybe you empty the magazine and loiad another.....until all movement stops!

Double Naught Spy
January 20, 2003, 06:17 PM
Some folks have touched on this already. The question of when you start to do triple taps, just to be sure, as you go from a larger caliber to smaller is rather pointless as a reasoned SOP sort of answer. Jesse H and other mention shooting until the target is neutralized. That is really all you need to know. There is no caliber to round count performance formula for you to determine when you need to double tap, triple tap, or unload the entire gun into the person. To suggest that there is a standard would be to over simplify the problem to a point of being irrelevant to reality. There are simply too many other factors involved to make the determination relevant. Things such as size, weight, physical condition, distance, mind set, armor, weapons, etc. all come into play, not to mention your mind set, ability to weild your weapon, ability to hit the target in the necessary vital areas available to hit at the distance the target is from you, caliber, slug weight, slug type, velocity from your weapon at the target, weather conditions, etc.

Given the cailber to shot number, I would guess that you would need to be dozen tapping if using a .22 lr, as a rule of thumb or SOP...unless you are that 84 year old granny in AR who dropped her son in law at 220 yards with a .22 lr rifle, no scope. Apparently, she saw no need in increasing the number of shots to compensate for the caliber or the distance.

By the way and as a serious consideration, drills that emphasize a shot to the head are also overly simplified and hence should not be considered as the great stop shot people think is going to occur. It should NOT be that a shot to the head (as in Mozambique drills) should be the shot that drops the person but a shot to the CNS (central nervous system), particularly the brain, brain stem, or spinal cord above the shoulders. I don't expect people to aim at the spinal cord or brain stem, those are simply alternate portions of the CNS that will more than likely produce the needed result. If you have shot somebody twice in the chest and they are still not retreating, a shot to the 'head' that only managed to damage the face or bone without incapacitating the CNS probably isn't going to stop the guy either. Too many folks get shot in the "head" and survive to quite fine and some manage to continue to fight quite well. Platt and Matix were both shot there, one temporarily incapacitated, but regained consciousness and tried to flee. The other managed to kill two FBI agents and wound others AFTER being shot in the "head" (his face). Mozambique should = 2 to the chest and 1 CNS (above shoulders).

Archer
January 21, 2003, 12:14 AM
The Mozambique Drill was actually developed in the heat of battle. A soldier armed with a handgun was being shot at by another soldier with an AK-47 - full automatic. So far the fellow with the AK was missing. The fellow with the handgun had hit the other one several times in the chest, but to no effect. He then took careful aim and placed one round in the eye socket bring the fight to a stop


Actually, the way Jeff tells the story, the third shot was in the wishbone- Mike Rousseau punched the trigger. Still, it was effective and stopped the fight.

CAP
January 25, 2003, 08:57 PM
If they are still moving after 2 don't stop there.

As a standard practice drill, it's not a bad idea.

Quartus
January 25, 2003, 09:17 PM
I'd just keep shooting until they stop, regardless of caliber.


Hmmm. You'd make a lousy gun store commando. In fact, you sound like someone who has had recent training from REAL professionals, and actually learned from it.


I doubt there's a credible school out there still teaching double tap. OR triple tap. Or Mozambique, for that matter.


COM, shoot until it the threat is neutralized. That is current SOP among professionals.

Which partially explains why so many police shootings end up with several empty mags from several officers. It's not panic mode - it's real world training.

Well, we hope it is most of the time, anyway!

Still Learning
January 25, 2003, 09:26 PM
Shoot just like they vote in Chicago....Early and often.

cratz2
January 25, 2003, 09:35 PM
I still think I'd just double tap regardless of what caliber. Unless it was a 10mm since I doubt my second shot would go where I wanted it to go. :D

But for 32, 380, 9mm Mak, 9mm, 40 or 45, the bad guy is getting two rounds then an evaluation. With the 32 I may intend to shoot more but I've done so many double taps, it would probably be second nature.

Arkady
January 26, 2003, 12:28 AM
When do i start triple tapping? Less than .50 BMG, i guess.

I'll only double tap with the .50

Anything worth shooting is worth shooting at least twice.

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