[Lech]

I've recently acquired a .41 colt new line revolver, and would like to reload some ammo for this calibre. I have .41 LC dies from Redding and some LC starline cases and .386 hollow base bullets. I figured I won't be able to use that stuff for now (I'll probably end up buying a thunderer in time) because the cases are too long and the bullets too small. The length of the cylinder on this revolver is 1.100" and bore groove diameter seems about .406"-408". So, I will try to trim the cases to .9??" and order some heelbase bullets that will better fit the groove diameter.
My question is: Will I be able to use the Redding reloading die for .41 LC to load Short Colt ammo with .405"-.406" bullet? This is my first attempt at reloading ammo altogether. If anyone has info on reloading this calibre, I would be glad to put it to use! I read this ammo is not very accurate but packs a good punch. Any sources of bullets and load data would be greatly appreciated.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=97439&stc=1&d=1241374530http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=97440&stc=1&d=1241374530

[rcmodel]

You have a black powder Colt made before smokeless powder was in widespread use.

1874 - 1879 to be exact.

It was only made for five years, and not many in that cailiber.
.41 Colt is the rarest caliber made in that model.

It was not especially strong to start with in the .41 caliber model.
It is far to rare to risk damage trying to shoot smokeless powder loads in cut-off cases.

I would recommend you retire it, and admire it, before you break it.

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=24207

rc

[Snow Dog]

Silly question as I am not too familiar with these oldtimers - is that centerfire or rimfire? It looks similar to the cheap .32 rimfire revolvers from that era.

[rcmodel]

That's a very good question!

The Colt New Line was one of the first guns chambered for the .41 Long Rim-Fire!

But it was also later chambered for the .41 Colt center-fire.

rc

[Beagle-zebub]

Aren't these revolvers known to be inaccurate as well, owing to their use of an undersize bullet with a hollow base? That's what I was told, at least.

[Lech]

I'd love to let it sit in the drawer and collect dust, but I feel it's a good candidate for blackpowder handloads. This revolver is a centerfire, denoted by the C besides the calibre mark. The .386" bullet was made for later .41 LC revolvers and the bore on those was slightly smaller. I haven't got a heelbase bullet to try in the .41 LC Redding dies, I'd like to know if I have to find another seating die to reload these bullets.

[NCsmitty]

It's my opinion that a revolver like that should be relegated to collector status and preserved as is, but it's not mine so here's a tidbit of info gleaned from another site. I'm guessing that it shoots the 41 short Colt.

The .41 Long Colt's little brother, the .41 Short Colt, was never very popular. It was mainly intended for cartridge-conversion revolvers and, with its 160-gr bullet propelled by 14 grains FFFg, was not a stellar performer.
Good luck.

NCsmitty

[Lech]

That's a good start for some load data, as most articles I've read, just say 'fill them and compress a little'. I just came across a good heelbase page http://www.leverguns.com/articles/heelbullets.htm . From reading it, I gather the LC dies will work on heelbase bullets, the author says that redding dies are his best choice. I guess all I have to do now is obtain some decent bullets and some spg lube. I like his idea for making your own crimper. Low-pro but sounds promising if made from a strong tool, maybe a vise grip version might work well, this way you could regulate the strenth of the crimp. Any other information would be appreciated!

[saltydog452]

Whatever you do, will you please post a follow up on this thread?

Thanks,

salty

[~z]

If you are interested in loading for a .41, I have a S&W 57. Wanna trade?
~z

[Lech]

I will definately post my findings on here. For now I'm just looking for suitable bullets, or moulds and when I find them I will start reloading.
I'm continuously scouring the internet for more info. Here's another good page I have found: http://bobshellsblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/colt-revolvers.html. The data on this page is for LC but he also talks about the Short Colt round on the page. However, I have found another page that concentrated on the SC round: http://www.oldammo.com/august08.htm , it's a good reference and the measurements are from originally made factory ammo.
I have also dug up an old Belding and Mull (1934) reloading handbook and their charts indicate the .41 Short Colt bullet to be of 160grain weight. On their ballistics page they indicate: 160gr bullet, 665 foot seconds of muzzle velocity, 157 foot pounds of energy and penetration of 4 7/8" pine boards. The Long Colt's 200grain bullet flies 725, 235 and 5 boards respectively. On the 'Table of Rate of Twist of Revolvers and Grove Diameters' it only shows 41 Colt: Mfg: Colt, Twist in inches: 16L and Standard Groove Diameter: .402 which is the same as the 38-40 figure just above in the table. I read that Colt made the barrels smaller in their .41 calibre to more closely match the size of the 38-40 target round. The groove diameter on my revolver is a little bigger, I'd say .409" and the bore still has blue on the inside, so I guess it's not shot out that much. Going back to the reloading manual the 'Table of Revolver Charges' indicates 4.3 of Dupont 5 gives 727 velocity and 7 and 9.5 grains of Dupont 80 gives 737 and 953 velocities respectively. There is no load data for the Short cartridge though.
If anyone has one of those old manuals, kindly take a look for Short Colt information. Perhaps an earlier reloading book might have more info on the Short Colt.

[Lech]

I'm still on the quest to reload this calibre, but getting closer!
I've learned that Old West Bullet Moulds can make a mould for that calibre, so I've ordered one with 2 different designs a 160 and a 165 gr. bullet. Bernie Rowles of OWM put an awesome package together for me. A Lyman lubrisizer with a .403 sizer, and a custom top punch that can seat primers and is used for sizing the cases in the lubrisizer. After changing the top punch to a cup punch that fits the rim of the case, you seat the bullet with the case upside down. An easy operation, just start the bullet in a slightly belled case and the bullet is sized, seated and lubed in one operation. I just got the package and started experimenting right away. Remember I'm a novice at reloading, it's my first attempt! After I got the lube to pass thru the lubrisizer, the cases were easily sized (.41 LC Starline). After belling the case the bullet was easily seated and lubed using the lubrisizer. The bullet seats nicely and fits pretty snug, but I will try to get a crimping tool to complete the process. I'm making a holder to aid in trimming the LC cases to .~780", once I have the proper lengths I'll attempt some live loads.
I have found some more info on the original dimensions of this cartridge. Here's a link to a post I found: http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47698&sid=7b96a1759132c7e3d63952520ebb6e64 . On the second scan of the book it talks about the original .41 Long Colt round. It was actually shorter than the well known .41LC. That round was developed for use with these New Line revolvers. It used a 130 grain bullet and was made by Winchester. U.M.Co. made a .41 Short Colt Single Action during the same period with a ~160gr bullet that was a little fatter and the case was a shorter .640 vs. .767. I could only speculate when I say that these were probably similar OAL (longer case w/shorter bullet = shorter case w/longer bullet). The bullet diameter differs from .403-.404 on .41 Long Colt to .408-.409 on the .41 Short Colt Single Action. The bullets that I've got are somewhere in between, because they're sized for .403 and are 160gr.

[ArchAngelCD]

If you must shoot that wonderful old Derringer I would highly recommend using only black powder loads. GOEX (http://www.powderinc.com/) is a good place to start or if you want to use a substitute look into the American Pioneer Powder company (http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/index.html). Of course you could use Hodgdon Pyrodex or Triple 7 but those powders might be too harsh for your gun.

As for bullets those old .41 Colts can be most closely loaded to the older standards using a bullet from a Lyman #386177 or Lyman #386178 mold. You might be able to find what you need from Gad Custom Reloading (http://gadcustomcartridges.com/). They have a 185gr hollow base bullets for the .41 Colt available for only $10/100. They also have a 200gr Heal Base Bullets available for $7/100. On that page they are also showing loaded ammo for $40/50 rounds.

Good luck finding what you need to reload for that old beauty...

[Lech]

"Silly question as I am not too familiar with these oldtimers - is that centerfire or rimfire? It looks similar to the cheap .32 rimfire revolvers from that era. "

This revolver is a CF. On the New Line revolvers (.32, .38, .41, not sure about others) there is a C between the cylinder and the trigger on the frame that denotes 'centerfire'. See in picture up top. On the RF models, I have noticed a maltese cross cradling the barrel address '+ Colts Pt. ... +', I haven't seen it on the RF models. And it looks like a cheap revolver of the era because so many manufacturers made copies of the Colt revolver. Some of these looked very similar and were mostly .32's and .22 rf.

[Lech]

Well, I've finally been able to put together a few rounds of the .41 short colt. I looked up the GOEX website for load data and found that they recommend 15 grains of FFFG for this calibre. I could only fit about 10 grains in my cut down cases. Everything looks good, the lyman lubrisizer does a great job sizing the brass and priming, also seating, sizing and lubing the bullet. Yeah I know it seems like a tool designed just for sizing bullets shouldn't be used to do all that, but it works great. All I have to do is bell the case in another single stage press before the 'seating, sizing and lubing of the bullet' step. I would like to get some sort of a crimping tool because some bullets are pretty loose in the cases. Altogether it took me about a year to source all the stuff and learn how to put this together. I'm going to try a few out tomorrow and will report back on my findings. I don't have a crony to measure speed though. I would like to recover one of the shot bullets to see how well it grips the rifling, any ideas? Once they hit the backstop they're pretty much distorted.

[Speedo66]

Try shooting into a garbage can filled with water.

A 5 gal. bucket may be enough, guess you can try that first over soil in case it goes through.

[41 Colt]

How did you make out with it Lech?

I'd be curious to know if you could get away with using a 185gr hollow base bullet.

[Stainlessbutcher]

Lech, I sent you a PM, but in case you didn't get it, I've got some loaded .41 short CFs here in front of me. I accidentally bought them thinking they were LC.

Butch.

[Lech]

Hey 41 Colt, It was OK. The rifling gripped the bullet and I put 5 shots on paper at 10 yards. A hollow base bullet might work just fine, I've got some, but i've only been shooting heel, mainly because they fit the earlier revolvers. Hollow base ones are a little smaller, made for the later models.

[41 Colt]

Thanks for the reply Lech, I am looking at one of these as my next gun, still thinking about what I would load to shoot it.

Based on measurements it looks like full length Starline cases would fit the cylinder with a wadcutter type bullet. I have tried the heeled base early on and am not a fan of them.

The groove diameters on my circa 1895 & 1897 Colts in .41 are both .408", and one is near mint so it isn't shot out or worn. Surprisingly my circa 1888 model has a .401" groove diamter, though this is when they were supposed to be larger for the heeled bullets. Lands are around .396" -.398" in all three. This tells me my hollow base I currently shoot may work.

EDIT: I re-read the thread and noticed you were shooting .403" diameter bullets in a bore as large as up to .409". How was accuracy? With the heeled bullets you need to get a size larger than your bore, in your case something near .410" would be better.

[Lech]

Here's a pic of a bullet I recovered. Surprisingly undamaged, it came out of a tree! It was burried about a 1/4 inch under the bark in the light part of the wood, and I had to dig it out with a pocket knife.
http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac112/maciekcosiestao/stevens%20620%2012ga%20w%20Cutts/DSCN7378-1.jpg
http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac112/maciekcosiestao/stevens%20620%2012ga%20w%20Cutts/DSCN7377-1.jpg
http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac112/maciekcosiestao/stevens%20620%2012ga%20w%20Cutts/DSCN7376-1.jpg
http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac112/maciekcosiestao/stevens%20620%2012ga%20w%20Cutts/DSCN7370-1.jpg
Judging from the rifling cuts on the side of the bullet, it grips the rifling just fine. I never 'slugged' the bore, but I followed direction from the man who made the mold for this bullet. I was advised to size it to .403, and that's just what I did. The groove dia on this gun (colt newline) is .409 but the part that grips the bullet is just .394 or so (I'm just using a cheap vernier, I dont' have a bore mic). I've measured a few newlines and they're all the same. Short cases took 12grains of goex and the long cases 22 grains of goex FFFG Black Powder. I can't say the accuracy was any good, but it did stay on paper and for a first time attempt I'm happy with it. I never crimped any of the bullets either, and they were just held by the pressure of the case. I put together about 50 shorts and 40 longs, but could only load up 2 cylinders at a time, before I had to clean the bore. I just washed it out with water, dried it and followed with some gun oil. I used javelin lube on the bullets. All the residue came right out with water, and there was no scrubbing necessary! I might try the .386 bullet in time, but I'm happy with the heel. I just bought a few molds off ebay, I got a H&G .41 colt #121 and a LG single cav for a .386 41 colt bullet. So far I've been using a 'old west' bullet mold made by Mr. Rowles. I had 'great success' with these and will continue to size my bullets in the same way. I suppose heel will do better with larger bores, and .386 hollowbase will be better for the latter guns. I'm not so sure about the larger than bore bullet, 41 Colt.. You try it first! ;)

[41 Colt]

Looks like it grips the rifling quite well.

I bought a nice nickel plated 1st model in 41 cal. I was thinking taking one of my full sized rounds and cutting the nose of the bullet off to make a wadcutter the length of the case may make a decent round. I'll report my attemps once I have a chance to test fire it.

[Lech]

Nice, do you have any pictures of it? I haven't seen a first model in 41 cf yet? Are you planning to use the hollow base bullet in your rounds?

These revolvers are awesome, and there's a nice one up for auction http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac112/maciekcosiestao/New%20Line%20Colts/pix1628793218.jpg
It has very nice blue on barrel, and no loading gate! That could be a jewel in someone's collection!

I'm going to start a new thread and see who wants to post some pics of their New Lines, New House and New Police revolvers.

[Lech]

Take a look at this thread and post pictures of your revolvers!!

New Line Thread (www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=542238)

[41 Colt]

I don't have it yet, it probably just shipped out Friday.

http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/colt-new-line-revolver-6.htm

The bolt on the 1st model is just like a SAA, while the 2nd model went with the design later used on the Lightening/Thunderer guns. I have my eye on a 2nd model in blue/CC so I may get a nice pair.

I will play around with my hollow base bullets for now. I like the ease of pan lubing over one by one with the heeled bullets. I just chopped the nose off a couple loose bullets from my Rapine mold and get about 130gr, that may be too light?

[41 Colt]

I just found the listing for that new line, looks nice but $5500 is an insane price! Does the name engraved on the cylinder make it that high?

I just got a blue/cc one for fraction of that to go with my nickel one, condition is fairly on par with the one in that listing.

[Lech]

Looks very nice 41 Colt! Has a lot of finish left and the screws have good blue! I believe its a rimfire because of the crosses around the barrel address and no C on the frame, better check. These 1st models are not usually found in good shape like this. HC-Collections has a reloading kit for the rf. Dixie gunworks has some reloadable rf cases as well.

The blue gun is probably overpriced but it does have nice blue, 1st model production barrel, and an uncommon logo on left side of frame with a C an a rampant colt. That would be in the 3rd year of production and they probably used a barrel leftover from 1st model. Inscriptions are always a glimpse into the history of the gun which is also important. Auctions usually put the prices where they should be, but only a few sellers put a 'no reserver' auction up. I've seen this gun go to 1300 before but no sale.

[41 Colt]

So I just got one, a second model. It's extremely clean. I took apart to give it a good cleaning and try to fix an issue with binding in the timing. It looked like the bolt edge was hitting the case heads (I had spent casing loaded to dry fire it).

It still seams to bind so my question is what do the hands on these guins look like? Is there a "top" and "bottom" hand like a Colt SAA, two steps or levels? Mine has two but I have seen a sketch where it appears to just have one level.

[41 Colt]

I know what is going on, my hand has two levels and due to the bottom hand the top hand protudes too far into the frame and contacts the case heads causing binding. Without any cases loaded the action functions fine.

Here are pics:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2yz0n7p.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/nyu75.jpg

[Gatofeo]

Gad Custom Cartridges sells hollowbased .41 Colt bullets for $10 per 10, or you can buy 100 heel-based bullets of 200 grs. for $7. Either is a bargain.
You'll have to trim cases back if you use heeled bullets.
I cast heeled bullets for the .32 Long Colt, so I'm familiar with the peculiarities of using heeled bullets.
The classic book, "US Cartridges & Their Handguns" by Charles A. Suydam shows the following measurements, taken from vintage cartridges, for the .41 Short Colt.

Bullet: 160(?) grain blunt-nose.
Powder: 15(?) grains of black powder. Grade not mentioned but I'd suggest you use FFFG.

Case rim diameter: .429 to .434 inch. Early cases were .457 to .470 inch.
Case head (forward of rim): .405 to .408 inch.
Case mouth, just below the crimp: .405 to .408 inch.
Bullet, maximum diameter ahead of case: .404 to .413 inch.
Case length (no bullet seated): .771 to .785 inch. Early cases ran .631 to .633 inch.
Overall cartridge length (after heeled bullet seated): 1.168 to 1.218 inch. Early ammo ran 1.101 to 1.133 inch.

As you can see, there is much disparity in some measurements. When these cartridges were made, there was no standardization; factories made what they figured worked. These figures will guide you, though.

As for bullet lubricant with black powder, use what the factories used. I found this recipe years ago in a 1943 American Rifleman magazine, listed as what the factories used years before with heeled bullets.
I used this recipe, but used very specific ingredients in the same proportions. The old article was more general about ingredients.
The following recipe was named after me years ago, as "Gatofeo No. 1 Bullet Lubricant." It's the best black powder bullet, patch and wad lubricant I've found.
The Gatofeo No. 1 Bullet Lubricant recipe is:
1 part canning paraffin, such as that used to seal jars of preserves.
1 part mutton tallow (sold by Dixie Gun Works).
1/2 part beeswax
All amounts are by weight. I typically make a batch of 200/200/100 grams in a widemouth Mason jar, immsersed in a few inches of boiling water for a double-boiler effect. This is the safest way to melt greases and waxes.
Once all ingredients are melted, stir well with a stick or disposable chopstick. Allow to harden at room temperature.
Note: Do NOT substitute the above specific ingredients. Others and I have, and it results in an inferior product. You MUST use mutton tallow, canning paraffin and real beeswax to get this lubricant's benefits.

After you've loaded your cartridges with powder, and seated the heeled bullet down to the stepped-up bullet diameter, you can use a cheap wire stripper to gently crimp the case into the bullet.
A rat-tailed file will remove the sharpness from the edges of the wire stripper, so you don't cut or dent the brass case too much.

After crimping the case into the bullet, turn the entire cartridge upside down and hold the bullet in melted lubricant for a moment. Just the bullet part, stopping where the lubricant meets the brass case.
If the lubricant is hot enough, you'll see a ring of tension form around the bullet, because the bullet is colder than the lubricant.
After a moment, that ring of tension will disappear when the bullet reaches bullet lubricant temperature. That's the moment to remove the cartridge. This will leave an even coat of lubricant on the bullet.
Stand the cartridge upright on a sheet of wax paper and allow the lubricant to cool and cure overnight.
If you remove the cartridge before that ring of tension snaps away, you'll get a big gob of lubricant on the bullet. If that happens, just return the bullet to the hot lubricant and wait for the ring of tension to disappear.

Do NOT put ammo with outside lubricated bullets back into their paper boxes. Instead, place the cartridges into plastic boxes with separated dividers. I think a box made for .41 Magnum or .44 Special would work fine.
The plastic will keep dust and dirt off the lubricant and won't absorb the lubricant like paper.
It's helpful to have two boxes for each group of ammo. One box to carry it to the range, and the other to hold the fired cases. That way, you'll avoid cross-contamination of black powder fouling in the box that carries the clean, lubricated ammo.
When my plastic boxes get too gunky, turn them upside down in the dishwasher. All the old grease and black powder foulilng are cleaned out, along with the dishes.

Because of the variance in manufacturing measurements in old guns like yours, I'd suggest you make one trial cartridge to ensure it will chamber in all chambers. The bullet may be too big to fit your chambers. Making a dummy round will also be useful for display, and for setting up your reloading dies.
Of course, don't put a primer or powder in your dummy case.

You may very well find that heeled bullets are more accurate than hollowbased bullets, which rely upon the pressure of the gases to bump them up to diameter. Heeled bullets begin at larger diameter, so they'll usually fill the rifling grooves well.

I've learned a great deal firing my Marlin 1892 rifle with heeled bullets. I hope this information helps you.

[41 Colt]

I fixed the hand issue and also made a new mainspring after it broke.

I cast up two kinds of hollow base bullets both from a Rapine 386185. The first has a small hollow and with the bullet nose cut off in full length cases should produce bullets weighing about 140-145gr. The second I cast with a large hollow but shortened overall pin so the bullet is longer (the part that will go in the case). These should produce a bullet about 160-165gr which is closer to the original I believe. I'm gonna guess they will both hold around 15gr of blackpowder.

My current load for .41 Long Colt is 19gr crammed under a large hollow bullet weighing 184gr which I recently reduced to 17gr with only minor compression. I'd like to keep the pressure as low as possible due to the age and thin cylinder walls. I'll be loading in the next few days and should be at the range by next week and will report back.

Gatofeo, excellent post but I loathe heeled bullets after my experience with them. Only if these hollow base don't work well will I try them.

[41 Colt]

This is what my rounds will look like, the one on the left, compared to a normal round on the right. I don't want to trim my brass so I will trim the bullets instead.

The next photo shows an empty full size case, a trimmed round and regular round in the cylinder.

The last photo shows the two bullets I am testing. The left is a typical Rapine 386185 with small hollow weighing about 202gr and next to it the trimmed version weighing about 145gr. Next is the large hollow but with a pin 0.103" shorter overall. Out of the mold these are around 220gr and the trimmed one about 162gr.

With the 145gr bullet a case holds 14.5gr without compression. I find this out by drilling out the flash hole of a case, seating a bullet and filling it with blackpowder from the flash hole. I will probably try 15.5gr.

The 162gr bullet sits on 12.8gr of powder and I will probably try 14gr. I think this one is closest to the original .41 Short Colt in weights although they were heeled bullets not hollow base. I also think they will be more accurate being longer.

http://i53.tinypic.com/j5yogo.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/20r2vic.jpg

http://i52.tinypic.com/2a6qhli.jpg

[41 Colt]

Went out today with them. I got a second in Nickel. :D

At 10yrds I barely hit anything, the two holes covered with tape are the only two that hit the paper at that distance. I shot a larger board and the shots were all going about 10" high and 3-4" right. I moved it in to 4-5yrds and these are five shot groups aiming at the center of the target. The notations at the tops of the targets are blackpowder weight, bullet weight & gun finish.

They are snappy little bastards, almost hard to hold onto being so small, but awesome. :cool:

http://i55.tinypic.com/122ymgj.jpg

[andrewstorm]

I have found cartridges in 41 l.d.a.,41 s.d.a. and 41 e.s.d.a.,and 41 l.s.a. 41 s .s.a.all with different case dimensions,bullet diameters,and rim diameter's it seems to me to be almost as confusing as the English .450 cartridge,My revolver is marked colt 41 da and was made in 1897,long colt cartridges from the late 1920s slip by my ejectors, and i notice a round manufactured in 1897,had a rim diameter larger than more modern rounds,and specifically stated on the box (for colts 41 da) ,well i was taught to only use ammo matching the barrel markings exactly,and @ 5.00 per round collectors pricing i guess i wont be shooting this old fellow,unless i can get a lee loader kit in 41 .d.a. anyone have one to sell? done a search to no avail:confused: