safe to carry a cz-82 cocked and locked?


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harmon rabb
May 4, 2009, 10:20 AM
is it? i recall seeing somewhere that it's NOT safe to do so, even though the manual claims that it is.

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nalioth
May 4, 2009, 12:52 PM
I believe you're thinking of the Cz-52.

The Cz-82 is quite safe at all times, until you put your finger on the trigger.

harmon rabb
May 4, 2009, 01:41 PM
no. i'm thinking of a cz-82 ;) i have specifically read something about the safety being ineffective for some reason or another.

doesn't the cz-52 have a decocker, not a safety, anyway?

nalioth
May 4, 2009, 02:10 PM
no. i'm thinking of a cz-82 i have specifically read something about the safety being ineffective for some reason or another. I've never heard that at all. The Cz-82 is a modern design and quite safe, so long as you keep your finger under control.

doesn't the cz-52 have a decocker, not a safety, anyway? The Cz-52 has both. Due to metallurgical issues, neither should be trusted on them.

Rockwell1
May 4, 2009, 03:11 PM
The CZ -82 is designed to be carried in the half cock position. It has a rebounding ( is that the proper term?) hammer so the only way to get the hammer in contact with the firing pin is to pull the trigger.

My wife has carried her CZ-82 in this manner for over a year no problem.

That said the CZ is safe to carry condition 1

Guy de Loimbard
May 4, 2009, 03:17 PM
The safety works well on the CZ-82, I used to carry mine c&l all the time with no issues. Only reason I still don't is because now I've switched to carrying my P64 most of the time. In any case, the trigger must be fully depressed before the hammer block will move out of the way, so even if the safety was accidentally swiped off (which would be hard to do with mine, it's pretty stiff) as long as your holster keeps things out of the trigger guard you should have no problem.

I've never heard of a CZ-82 with a half cock position though. Mine only has two positions, hammer down and full cock. Nothing in the middle.

harmon rabb
May 4, 2009, 03:25 PM
Guy, I think rockwell is referring to the rebounding hammer. Look at the hammer when it's "down." It's actually not contacting the firing pin at all.

I ask this because, as of now, my CZ is my smallest pistol.. but the slide takes some effort to rack, so i wouldn't want to carry it without one in the chamber. Since there is no decocker, carrying cocked and locked seems the only option.

I'm going to pick up a LCR, but I just thought this might work for now... The CZ feeds reliably and I'm accurate with it, so I'd feel comfortable defending myself with it.

nalioth
May 4, 2009, 03:29 PM
Since there is no decocker, carrying cocked and locked seems the only option. Point your pistol in a safe direction. Stick your thumb on the hammer, pull the trigger, and ease the hammer down. Once the hammer moves past the 'cocked' position, remove your finger from the trigger and ease the hammer on down.

You're now just as decocked and safe as any other modern pistol design.

Guy de Loimbard
May 4, 2009, 03:41 PM
I am aware of the rebounding hammer on the CZ, I didn't think it was the same thing as a half cock though. Half cock usually involves a second notch on the hammer for the sear to catch, does it not?

jeephistorian
May 4, 2009, 07:05 PM
I agree with Guy. Historically speaking, half cock was a second notch on the hammer that the sear could not escape. We used to test half cock by hanging a rifle from the trigger in half cock. If it let go, we would disqualify it. The rebounding hammer is effectively just in the fired position, with no tension on the hammer. A swing up block prevents contact with the firing pin until the trigger is fully depressed. So it would take pulling the trigger all of the way back to fire the chambered round.

Ron James
May 4, 2009, 07:36 PM
Again, I'll ask this question, The CZ 82 has a very smooth action, why would anyone carry one " cocked and locked". And no nonsense about consistence trigger pulls. When your blood is pumping and fight or flight is kicking in, you don't have any conscious memory of pulling the trigger. Or as was suggested, just cocked? { why worry, it's only dangerous when your finger is on the trigger. . Gosh, maybe I should start carrying my double action revolvers on full cock?? What say? The CZ 82 is trigger action with a smooth pull, why not carry it .one in the chamber and hammer down? Very confusing.:confused:

harmon rabb
May 4, 2009, 07:54 PM
Point your pistol in a safe direction. Stick your thumb on the hammer, pull the trigger, and ease the hammer down. Once the hammer moves past the 'cocked' position, remove your finger from the trigger and ease the hammer on down.

You're now just as decocked and safe as any other modern pistol design.

I recently read a post on here about a guy who did that with his 1911. He did it for years. Then slipped once and the gun fired in his house.

Again, I'll ask this question, The CZ 82 has a very smooth action, why would anyone carry one " cocked and locked". And no nonsense about consistence trigger pulls. When your blood is pumping and fight or flight is kicking in, you don't have any conscious memory of pulling the trigger. Or as was suggested, just cocked? { why worry, it's only dangerous when your finger is on the trigger. . Gosh, maybe I should start carrying my double action revolvers on full cock?? What say? The CZ 82 is trigger action with a smooth pull, why not carry it .one in the chamber and hammer down? Very confusing

See above ;) I'm just not going to take the chance of manually decocking a gun that doesn't have a decocker. I'd rather carry cocked and locked. I can flip the safety off with my thumb quite easily.

Trebor
May 4, 2009, 08:05 PM
Again, I'll ask this question, The CZ 82 has a very smooth action, why would anyone carry one " cocked and locked". And no nonsense about consistence trigger pulls.

Call it nonsense if you like, but there is something to be said for having a consistent trigger pull for every shot.

I'm an instructor and I take a lot of classes and practice a lot and I still shoot my CZ-75 better in single-action mode then I do with a DA first shot and then a SA follow up shot.


The CZ 82 is trigger action with a smooth pull, why not carry it .one in the chamber and hammer down?

Some people don't like lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber on pistols that don't have a decock lever. Yes, it can be done safely, but it also does increase the risk of an AD if your thumb slips as you lower the hammer. Some people just aren't comfortable with the procedure or don't want to increase the risk, even if just slightly.


Very confusing

It's only confusing if you believe that your choice on how to carry yoru pistol is the rght choice for everyone. There are as many valid reasons for carrying "cocked and locked" as there are for carrying DA/SA by manually lowering the hammer. Just because you prefer one way doesn't make it *the* way to go.

AK103K
May 4, 2009, 08:08 PM
There was this.....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=393304

harmon rabb
May 4, 2009, 08:28 PM
holy crap. that scared me. :o

solvability
May 4, 2009, 08:47 PM
I wish I could unread that post:what:

harmon rabb
May 4, 2009, 08:50 PM
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/6/20/633495987683532308-what-has-been-seen.jpg

Rockwell1
May 4, 2009, 09:14 PM
Guy, I think rockwell is referring to the rebounding hammer

Yes.

When I "decock" my wife's 82 I make sure my hands are clean and dry and I cover the hammer with my finger so if the hammer does slam forward it will squish my finger not fire the pistol.

Please note that in loneviking's post the fault for the AD was much more with the holster than the weapon and wouldn't have happened had he been carrying cond 3

Guy de Loimbard
May 4, 2009, 09:25 PM
Good grief Ron, just because some people do things differently than you, don't take it as an insult eh? The OP asked if it was safe to carry cocked and locked. It is. It is also safe to carry with the safety off and the hammer down; it all boils down to personal preference. No where was it advocated that anyone carry cocked and unlocked. As for why some people would carry C&L even though the CZ has such a smooth action? Why not? It's still just as smooth, and a lot lighter in single action. Some of us like our semi-auto pistols to have a light, consistent trigger pull.

loneviking
May 4, 2009, 11:45 PM
That CZ 82 is NOT safe to carry cocked and locked. If that safety comes off, which it most certainly can, that is a very light SA trigger that requires very little to fire off the gun. I"m talking from personal experience that the CZ line is a VERY bad idea to carry 'cocked and locked'. With a 1911, with 'cocked and locked' you have a grip safety as backup, but you don't with a CZ. Cocked and locked with a CZ is an accident waiting to happen.

And an equally bad idea is trying to decock 'em with those small hammers. That's why I now have a Sig P6/225, with a decocker that is DA/SA.

The grons
May 5, 2009, 12:16 AM
I agree the SA trigger is a hair trigger and when at the range I accidently shoot an additional round because the recoil and the hair trigger. Is there a way to decock that would be the safest that you would reccomend?

loneviking
May 5, 2009, 01:22 AM
I agree the SA trigger is a hair trigger and when at the range I accidently shoot an additional round because the recoil and the hair trigger. Is there a way to decock that would be the safest that you would reccomend?

Put your pinky between the hammer and the firing pin, then hold onto the hammer and release the trigger, lowering the hammer onto your pinky. Slowly ease your pinky out from behind the hammer while keeping tension on the hammer with your thumb. Yes, it's awkward but it's the only way I've found to decock one of these CZ's safely. And before you do this, drop the mag. out!

Rockwell1
May 5, 2009, 01:29 AM
Is there a way to decock that would be the safest that you would reccomend?

If you don't feel comfortable with it don't do it. I put my finger in front of the hammer so the hammer would hit my finger then ease it down.

That CZ 82 is NOT safe to carry cocked and locked.

While I don't believe the CZ-82 is designed for condition-1 carry I believe it is safe WITH A PROPER HOLSTER. Which, you didn't have. Your AD was far more a holster failure than a mechanical failure. (which I'm sure was small comfort while you were bleeding all over the place and walking home)

Mastiff
May 5, 2009, 01:56 AM
I have a reason to carry my CZ-82 cocked and locked. I have very small hands. I can not hold the pistol properly and reach the trigger in double action. The C&L feature is why I bought the pistol in the first place.

Guy de Loimbard
May 5, 2009, 02:10 AM
I don't know about the rest of the CZ line, but the safety engagement on the 82 is quite positive; it is much stiffer than the safety on a 1911. Besides that it's a bit smaller, and less likely to snag on things. While being accidentally swiped off is within the realm of possibilities, and has happened, I think it much more likely that it would be deliberately switched off or the user forgot to put the gun on safe in the first place, and could be avoided entirely with the proper precautions. When I carried mine I had no problems with the safety moving around, it stayed put. I used a typical IWB holster.

loneviking
May 5, 2009, 02:34 AM
I have a reason to carry my CZ-82 cocked and locked. I have very small hands. I can not hold the pistol properly and reach the trigger in double action. The C&L feature is why I bought the pistol in the first place.

Unless your financial situation precludes it, you can buy a Glock for not much more than the CZ's and have grip reductions done that will bring a trigger into reach for you while being safer than a CZ. These folks here are good at it:

http://www.southwestshootingauthority.com/612600.html

You could also buy a Springfield XD and have similar work done and the XD's have a grip safety and/or a slide safety. Saying that the safety is at least as positive as a 1911 isn't saying much. Go read some of the 1911 safety threads where guys admit having safeties come off while carrying a 'cocked and locked' 1911 in a holster.

loneviking
May 5, 2009, 02:38 AM
While I don't believe the CZ-82 is designed for condition-1 carry I believe it is safe WITH A PROPER HOLSTER. Which, you didn't have. Your AD was far more a holster failure than a mechanical failure. (which I'm sure was small comfort while you were bleeding all over the place and walking home)
__________________


Thanks for the empathy and to a large extent you are correct. A holster or some other device that blocks any manipulation of the trigger is absolutely essential to carrying any handgun IWB. However, what I've found both with mine and a couple of others I've seen is that the trigger pull is so light that these can go off just by a hard bump IF the safety has also disengaged. A handgun that is carried 'cocked and locked', IMHO, had better have a grip safety.

Ed Ames
May 5, 2009, 03:26 AM
Take this for what it's worth....

The '82 should be carried hammer down. The ambidextrous safety is too easily moved and if the trigger has pressure on it the safety becomes a second trigger. The '82 has a great DA trigger pull...use it.

Decocking the '82 should be done by holding the hammer securely, pulling the trigger, letting the hammer move slightly, RELEASING THE TRIGGER, then lowering the hammer down. It is important to release the trigger AS SOON AS POSSIBLE in the process. Why? If the trigger is forward you can drop the hammer completely and it won't hit the firing pin...verify that with your gun and if it isn't true get it to a smith.

To be exact, I hold the pistol pointed in a safe direction with my right hand, place my left hand on the slide so that the heel of my hand is resting above and forward of the ejection port, place the tip of my index finger on the right side of the hammer and my left thumb on the left side of the hammer, and pinch the hammer between thumb and index finger. The curves of the finger tips fit into the curves where the hammer spur widens. I do not push the hammer back, just pinch it from the sides to hold it securely. I then squeeze and RELEASE the trigger. The hammer will move back slightly as the trigger actuates and then push into the cradle of my pinched thumb and forefingers when the seer releases. I then take my finger OFF the trigger.

At that point, because I have released the trigger, it is safe to lower the hammer. It's also easy to do it in a controlled way because the knurling on the hammer, the swells to the sides of the spur, and everything else add up to a lot of control that shouldn't be absolutely needed because there is a safety block keeping the hammer from hitting the firing pin anyway. Just curve finger and thumb in towards the hand and roll the hammer down.

The alternative is to place your right thumb over the top of the hammer filling the gap between hammer face and firing pin so that the knuckle is on top of the hammer just ahead of the spur knurling, pull and release the trigger (the hammer should move forward slightly into the flesh of your thumb), then roll the thumb out to ease the hammer down. Doesn't seem as secure to me but it can be done one handed and as long as the trigger is released before the hammer is allowed to move the process is safe. The main problem I have with this is that my hold on the gun isn't as secure and it is easier to accidentally pull the hammer back slightly.

I have practiced with unused snap caps and as long as the trigger has been released before starting to ease the hammer down it is as safe as manipulating the trigger on a loaded gun can ever be.

There is no reason to remove the magazine or anything else.

I thought of another way of describing the first method -- I (and a lot of people) rack pistol slides by holding the pistol in the strong hand, placing the weak side hand above the slide so that thumb and index/middle fingers can pinch the knurling on the slide, aand moving strong hand forward and weak hand back to cycle the action. That gives a very secure grip on the slide and takes advantage of strong upper body muscles. Well, for decocking I just move the "pinch" back from the slide knurling to the hammer, pinch securely, squeeze and release the trigger, then ease the hammer down. Practice with an unloaded gun a few times and it will become second nature.

Lowering the hammer all the way with the trigger pulled is VERY bad practice with any gun I've ever looked at.

Rockwell1
May 5, 2009, 03:35 AM
A handgun that is carried 'cocked and locked', IMHO, had better have a grip safety.

I certainly won't argue that point.

Also, I want to be perfectly clear in that t do not wish to make light of your mis-fortune. If anything I said implied that please accept my profound apologies.

loneviking
May 5, 2009, 04:52 AM
Also, I want to be perfectly clear in that t do not wish to make light of your mis-fortune. If anything I said implied that please accept my profound apologies.


No offense taken, I didn't assume you meant any.

loop
May 5, 2009, 06:13 AM
This thread got me curious. My CZ82 is one of my favorite pistols, but it has been so long since I carried it that I couldn't remember in what condition I carried it.

So I dug out my 82 (it had migrated to the back of the safe). It was loaded and holstered. The last time I carried it the safety was off and the chamber was empty.

The slide is incredibly easy to rack. I assume that is why I chose to carry with the chamber empty. Also, I have having the first round DA and the second round SA.

They really are amazing little guns. I think I need another one.

I disagree with the trigger being easy to trip. The pull is agonizingly long. The safety is also very firmly locked when engaged. If I were to carry it tomorrow it would be cocked and locked.

Ed Ames
May 5, 2009, 10:15 AM
One thing to remember is that these are used guns. They have different histories and there's probably a lot of variation gun to gun at this point. On mine the safety is what I'd call secure but by no means extraordinarily firm.

Of course mine has a stiff spring too so it has lost that "easy to rack" quality.

harmon rabb
May 5, 2009, 10:40 AM
loop, the slide on your cz-82 is easy to rack? the slide on mine is the most difficult to rack of any autoloader i own or have fired. if it were easy to rack, i'd consider carrying it without a round in the chamber.

(my cwp has yet to arrive in the mail, but should shortly as it's been almost 3 months since i sent everything in. i'm just trying to figure out what i'm going to do when it arrives)

on another note, maybe i'm crazy, but i rack a slide by holding the gun in my weak hand (my right hand, as i'm left handed... but shoot right handed for some reason) and racking the slide with my strong hand. actually, i guess that's just a byproduct of shooting with my 'weak' hand. (like most lefty's, i'm sort of ambidextrous)

Ed Ames
May 5, 2009, 12:53 PM
Before I respringed my '82 it was very easy to rack. Now i'd go along with "hardest of my guns".

I'm a big fan of the "strong side grips normally, weak side over the slide with thumb towards back, push strong side forward" method of racking. It seems easier to me (it was recommended as a "anybody is strong enough" way) and when unloading it makes catching the chamber round easy.

krs
May 5, 2009, 01:49 PM
Again, I'll ask this question, The CZ 82 has a very smooth action, why would anyone carry one " cocked and locked". And no nonsense about consistence trigger pulls. When your blood is pumping and fight or flight is kicking in, you don't have any conscious memory of pulling the trigger. Or as was suggested, just cocked? { why worry, it's only dangerous when your finger is on the trigger. . Gosh, maybe I should start carrying my double action revolvers on full cock?? What say? The CZ 82 is trigger action with a smooth pull, why not carry it .one in the chamber and hammer down? Very confusing.

Confusing and foolish, Ron. I agree completely but what use? I've begun to believe that this forum is inhabited by underaged idiot children.

What a silly question - to carry a double action pistol cocked and locked.......why? You'll fumble with your safety for much longer than it will take to pull through the double action, if in your panicky state you're able to remember that there IS a safety.

and yes, children, even if you are well trained there's a better than 50-50 chance that you'll do something wrong the first time you come under fire. Little bit better if you just believe that you are ABOUT to be fired upon.

krs
May 5, 2009, 02:18 PM
I just went out and racked the slides of both my CZ-82's and don't find them difficult at all. Both have brand new Wolff recoil springs too, the 5% more than factory version.

I also fired a round out the back door double action. I did not think that the pull is heavy at all. Heavier than any of my 1911's sure, but for a DA pistol fired DA I think it's a very agreeable and light trigger. Smooth too.

REally nice guns aren't they? Maybe I'll send off for a third one today so I can mess with one - mill the slide smooth, maybe add some ballcut channels like a racegun, put on this spare Heinie sight that's been sitting around, hmmm, good idea.

See ya!

Girodin
May 5, 2009, 02:30 PM
and yes, children, even if you are well trained there's a better than 50-50 chance that you'll do something wrong the first time you come under fire.

What is the source of that statistic old and wise sage. Who does that statistic apply to? I imagine that there are individuals on this forum with a very broad range of training and experience yet you have lumped the all together under a blanket statement. As for the assurance that one will fumble with the saftey, how you be so certain. One shouldn't be remembering anything if they are sufficiently versed in the use of their firearm. Things like one's draw and disengaging the safety ought to be ingrained into muscle memory to the point they are reactions and happen virtually naturally. Of course it is a small fraction of gun owners that put in the time and effort required to reach that level. Perhaps you are merely trying to underscore your point about under aged idiot children posters. Mission accomplished.

Ed Ames
May 5, 2009, 02:30 PM
Does wolff make specific '82 springs now?

I use a cut down already heavy Mak spring. I don't know what the force is exactly but it fully tames my full pressure XTP handloads and that was my goal.

Yes, a very sweet shooter. It's a blowback action though so I'm not sure I'd mess much with the slide mass. My only mods are the heavy spring and meprolight night sights.

Dark Skies
May 5, 2009, 02:39 PM
There was this..... !!!

This is why I never carried a pistol in anything other than a shoulder rig. Ugh! I can't even begin to imagine the pain of shooting your meat and two veg.

loneviking
May 5, 2009, 11:55 PM
What a silly question - to carry a double action pistol cocked and locked.......why? You'll fumble with your safety for much longer than it will take to pull through the double action, if in your panicky state you're able to remember that there IS a safety.



Exactly! And yet, the manual for these guns says that this is one of the options to carry these. Go to the C.Z. site and this is what they mean when they say 'selective DA or SA'. The DA pull on one of these isn't bad at all.

Mastiff
May 6, 2009, 12:47 AM
Unless your financial situation precludes it, you can buy a Glock for not much more than the CZ's and have grip reductions done that will bring a trigger into reach for you while being safer than a CZ. These folks here are good at it:

http://www.southwestshootingauthority.com/612600.html

You could also buy a Springfield XD and have similar work done and the XD's have a grip safety and/or a slide safety. Saying that the safety is at least as positive as a 1911 isn't saying much. Go read some of the 1911 safety threads where guys admit having safeties come off while carrying a 'cocked and locked' 1911 in a holster.
__________________

Thanks for the link. I'll give them a call tomorrow.

TMann
May 6, 2009, 01:28 AM
I think that there's a big difference between carrying a cocked and locked handgun in a thin nylon pants holster, and carrying it in a tightly fitted kydex or leather holster. I currently own three different models of IWB holsters, with two more on the way. Each of them holds my handgun securely, and each of them completely covers the trigger guard.

The only gun that I have that can be carried cocked and locked is a CZ 75B. The safeties on my 75B click firmly into the fire and safety positions. I have a hard time seeing how they would be clicked off. Also, the trigger on my 75B has a pull that is reasonably long and heavy. It's not as light as a SA-only trigger, such as is found on my Ruger MK III or a 1911. So even if the safety were clicked off, the chance of the trigger, which is protected by the holster, being pulled are incredibly small. (Disclaimer: I've never actually handled a CZ 82, so I can't speak to the feel of its safety and trigger. It sounds like the 82 in question had much a much lighter safety and trigger pull.)

Every type of trigger is potentially dangerous if carried or handled incorrectly. With all due respect to the gentleman who had the ND, I don't think that ANY gun would be that safe in a holster that thin. I'm glad that the damage from your gunshot wound wasn't more serious.

Lastly, I would like to point out that this is the first time that I have EVER run across a thread in which someone was suggesting that someone trade their current pistol for a Glock, because the Glock's trigger system is SAFER than the one that they're carrying. ;)

Anyways, that's my two cents on the matter. Interesting discussion...

TMann

loneviking
May 6, 2009, 02:38 AM
Lastly, I would like to point out that this is the first time that I have EVER run across a thread in which someone was suggesting that someone trade their current pistol for a Glock, because the Glock's trigger system is SAFER than the one that they're carrying.


So, a Glock safety trigger is LESS safe than a CZ 82 carried cocked and locked? Is that what you are claiming? Didn't you also just claim that a good quality holster solves problems like that?

The real reason I recommended the Glock is because the Glock trigger is, IMHO, safe WITH a quality holster. And more important, because it's a polymer frame, things such as grip reductions can be done which can take the grip down to a size comfortable for the OP. That way, they can easily reach the trigger and they don't have to carry a gun with only one safety.

Further, a used Glock isn't going to run the OP much more than what the CZ costs.

loop
May 6, 2009, 04:17 AM
To me the CZ82 is really easy to rack. But, I have guns that are difficult to rack. A Para Warthog is a pain. It has a 3-inch slide (which is smaller than the palm of my hand) and a 22-pound recoil spring.

The CZ82 is a pipsqueak of a gun. It is really easy to rack.

It is also very nicely machined and made. If it came in .45ACp size it would be all I carried.

Ed Ames
May 6, 2009, 10:27 AM
I don't think the "glock is safer" argument would stand up to much scrutiny.

Glocks have a history of going bang at inopportune times. The problems seem to trace back to either poor holster design (not unique to glock) or unsafe handling by the operator (grabbing for a falling gun, finger catching on trigger during holstering, "I'm the only one in this room", etc.).

I would have no problem carrying an '82 hammer down on a loaded chamber in any circumstance I would carry a Glock.

I would only carry an '82 cocked and locked if I had verified that the holster had safety engaging tabs (some do) and that the safety was firm on that particular weapon. Even then I would prefer to lower the hammer.

krs
May 6, 2009, 11:23 AM
What is the source of that statistic old and wise sage. Who does that statistic apply to? I imagine that there are individuals on this forum with a very broad range of training and experience yet you have lumped the all together under a blanket statement. As for the assurance that one will fumble with the saftey, how you be so certain. One shouldn't be remembering anything if they are sufficiently versed in the use of their firearm. Things like one's draw and disengaging the safety ought to be ingrained into muscle memory to the point they are reactions and happen virtually naturally. Of course it is a small fraction of gun owners that put in the time and effort required to reach that level. Perhaps you are merely trying to underscore your point about under aged idiot children posters. Mission accomplished.

You'll reread my post to find that I said that SOMETHING WRONG does not necessitate fumbling with a safety.

As to all of you "muscle memory" mantra, without statistical support I'll ask if you believe that every young soldier was toilet trained as a child to develop a strong 'muscle memory' to know when it is time to find a toilet?

I'll presume an affirmative response. Yet even so well trained as that, even with so many repetitions as some 18 or 20 years may bring, more than one have discovered to their dismay that all of those years of directed toilet training did not prevent them from losing control of their bowel the very first time they were shot at and knew that THEY were being shot at.

So, I'll gently suggest that no amount of firearm drilling will instill in a person such "muscle memory" as twenty or more years of correctly hitting the loo will, and that with an even lower level of stress than a soldier may face all of that training will be for naught for some folks and they WILL..........get ready..............do SOMETHING wrong.

Mastiff
May 6, 2009, 11:31 AM
I'm sorry, guy. I really think you are wrong on this one.

Ed Ames
May 6, 2009, 12:09 PM
There is a problem with comparing dissimilar kinds.

Voiding waste before/early in a fight is a low-level survival behavior that may qualify as instincual. Not only are animals lighter without the waste, they are more likely to survive grevious injury. So birds, reptiles, insects, fish, and even humans do it. Holding waste in those conditions is counter to instinct.

Actuating a safety is neither instinctual nor counter instinctual. It is something else to remember/pay attention to, and it requires small motor control at a time when that may be difficult, but we have no low-level predisposition to leave the safety on.

The question is moot though ... the '82 blocks the safety from engaging unless the hammer is cocked. With the hammer down you treat it exactly like a revolver.

Guy de Loimbard
May 6, 2009, 12:32 PM
You experience with the CZ-82 may be a lot different than mine since they arrived here in the states in a variety of different conditions, I understand that. But to make a statement that all of them are not safe to carry C&L is kind of obtuse. If mine were one of the above with a floppy 1911 safety and a hair trigger I would rethink what I was doing lest I shoot myself. However, the safety on mine is firm (it is not "at least as positive as a 1911" as I was so misquoted earlier, it's the stiffest safety of any autoloader I've yet tried) and the SA trigger is near 5lb. Smooth, yes, a bit long, maybe, but still fairly heavy for an SA trigger.

toivo
May 6, 2009, 11:06 PM
I must be a wimp: I think my CZ-82 is hard to rack.

For what it's worth, I also think the trigger on my 82 in single action is very light. I wouldn't want to carry it cocked-and-locked, but that's just me.

Also for what it's worth, the thumb-break on the black leather police-type holster that came with my 82 can't be fastened when the hammer is cocked. This would suggest that while CZ-82s can be carried cocked-and-locked, the Czech cops that originally carried them probably didn't do it.

In an NRA handgun safety class, I was taught to lower the hammer on non-decocker guns by gripping the hammer with the right thumb while blocking it with a finger or the thumb of the left hand. Also, as has been mentioned, you should let the the trigger come forward as soon as the hammer has gone down past the "cocked" point. It is then safe to let the hammer all the way down. Still guided gently by the right thumb, of course, and with the pistol pointed in a safe direction.

As far as the Glock alternative, Glocks are great and all, but the pricing is not in the same league. We're not talking brand-new CZ-83s here; we're talking milsurps. Right now, they're selling for anywhere from $169 to $209. I haven't seen any used Glocks in that price range. CZ-82s are a smokin' deal--excellent value for money.

Ed Ames
May 6, 2009, 11:36 PM
The lightness of the trigger has nothing to do with cocked and locked... well, not much... many a 1911 is carried around w/ an under-3lb trigger. My concern is the likelihood of the safety disengaging. Some holsters have ridges to hold the safety in position. Others have ridges that could tend to disengage it.

That NRA decock method works (side note: I suspect one of the reasons the hammer on a 1911 can actuate the grip safety is to enable one-handed decocking)... I'm just not a huge fan. It is WAY better than putting your pinkie in the gap and pulling the trigger though. :)

toivo
May 6, 2009, 11:47 PM
The lightness of the trigger has nothing to do with cocked and locked... well, not much... [...] My concern is the likelihood of the safety disengaging.

Agreed. It's just a worst-case scenario: If the safety comes off accidentally, a lighter trigger is more likely to lead to an AD, especially with a thin holster.

Hammerhead6814
May 7, 2009, 12:36 AM
It's good to see more CZ-82 love on the forums :) .

Maybe someday someone will make some decent after-market grips for them :cuss:

colorado_handgunner
May 8, 2009, 12:11 AM
Seriously, how many times are we going to discuss this?

Ed Ames
May 8, 2009, 02:02 AM
Six?

polekitty
May 8, 2009, 02:28 AM
Did I understand you rightly---you sometimes let off an extra round because of recoil and light trigger? Here's the way to prevent that. Once upon a time I would let my finger lift off the trigger as the gun fired, the finger would wave around like a flag in the wind. Bang went the extra round. Surprised me more than anyone else! Now, here is what I do, whether revolver or pistol. I squeeze the trigger, good and tight, and don't let go. The gun fires. I keep the trigger finger tight on the trigger, all the way back, until I'm ready to fire another round. I never let the pressure off the trigger until I'm ready to fire the next shot, and then I release the trigger and let it reset. Works like a charm. I like, also, to think that if I were in some kind of "trouble" the assailant is going to have a hard time taking my gun away when I have a good firm grip with ALL of my fingers! I'm holding on to that gun like a baseball bat! I don't let go the trigger unless I want to fire another shot, or put it back into my holster. Try it. Works like a charm. Somehow, my groups have improved since I started doing it that way!

krs
May 8, 2009, 10:33 AM
That works for trout fishing too.

RockyTop
May 13, 2009, 12:42 PM
There was this.....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=393304

:what: :what:

I currently have one hole in mine and I'd like it stay that way.

The grons
May 23, 2009, 03:56 AM
I went to the range and tested both of my 82's; if you cock the hammer back and let the trigger go forward... the firing pin will not engage. This is a very easy way to put one in the chamber and then de-cock the hammer, the trick as one poster said is to make sure the trigger has moved forward before you are safe to let go of the hammer.

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