[Ladybug]

In a moment of temporary insanity (brought on by extreme rage - read my post in General, if you want) I actually found myself thinking "there should be a law to prevent some people from owning guns!" :uhoh:

Well, okay, I recovered. But then I had this thought... at the risk of introducing any more anti-gun legislation (which makes this a no-no to begin with).... what about a law that punishes people for incidents of gun-related negligence. Basically, we've had a bunch of car break-ins in our neighborhood lately, and my stupid neighbor left his gun in his truck and it was stolen (and he KNEW about the other break-ins!). Now we know for sure, if they weren't already, the thugs disturbing our neighborhood are armed. If someone is really that negligent and stupid - shouldn't there be SOMETHING to stop them? Okay, I'm thinking something like a mandatory safety course, or $$ penalty, NOT preventing them from owning guns. I don't think I've EVER wished there were any more laws, honestly, I'm just soooo

:cuss: mad at this guy!!! And it IS negligence, which most likely WILL result in harm to someone else!

[Balog]

Basically, we've had a bunch of car break-ins in our neighborhood lately, and my stupid neighbor left his gun in his truck and it was stolen

If he didn't leave the truck unlocked, or the gun out in the open I don't see how this could be negligent. If they broke into his house and stole the gun, would he be negligent?

[Ladybug]

I think leaving a gun in a truck parked out on the street, "hidden" under a blanket, overnight, in a neighborhood that has had at least weekly car break-ins for the last month is definately negligent.

[DigitalWarrior]

He lost his property. That is enough.

If you only lock your screen door and someone robs you, should you be charged with funding criminal operations?

[Art Eatman]

Philosophy aside, leaving a gun in a car is far more risky than having one lying around one's house. Breaking into cars is far more common than breaking into houses.

A fair number of guys wander loose with a "Slim Jim" tucked in their pants, just to check and see what's under a car seat or in the glovebox.

Lemme put it this way: If somebody winds up with a civil suit because of some variant of "Negligent storage of a firearm", they wouldn't want me on a jury. Particularly, not if there is a history of breakins in the area.

Art

[twoblink]

You gotta put the blame where it is; on the thief.. Is there more that could have been done? Yes. But remember, it's all set in motion by an illegal action..

What you need is not "more laws", but tougher penalties.. The Charmin wiping of criminals just makes me :cuss: :banghead: :fire:

Harsher punishment WORKS. My friend went to the middle east, and to his surprise, there were no locks on doors. He asked "what if my stuff gets stolen?" They laughed, most people would rather keep their left hand..

[CasualShooter]

It was stupid to leave it in the truck; but, he did lose the gun an that's enough. Perhaps he will learn from that.

Passing more laws won't make people any smarter. The ones who really need to be 'taught a lesson' are the car burglers'. We need to quit coddlin' these people and get serious about their punishment.

Laws -- I think they should have to repeal two of them for every new one they pass. :D

[sm]

Ladybug,
I know and can appreciate your recent frustrations.
That said:
I share the same city you might say. I do not want any more gun laws-period. In fact I do not want ANY Gun Laws period. We have enough laws that are supposed to deal with crime. Be it vehicles, or homes.

I don't want some law that says I must have my gun unloaded in a safe, with ammo in another location, in a safe. Gonna do me a hell of a lot of good to need in the middle of the night and by the time I get a loaded firearm-I'm dead.

Too many cities, states have these insane laws already, to protect the chillren, keep guns from BGs...etc. Too many "laws" restrict my rights, freedoms as is...and in turn since criminals ain't wired like law abiding folks, actually HELPS / aids the BGs.

Everybody knows what I'm about to type...especially the BGs (where do you think I learned it from?)

I see a cute honey and say I'm a rapist. I see a rich dude, and I'm a burglar. All I have to do is watch them park their vehicle, wait for them to leave, in 2 min, with a slim jim, I have thier home address. By law citizens must have registration and ins. card in vehicle...I get the addy, case the victim and do my thing.

I know because I was foreman on two trials, Had 2 BGs tell the court this to the amazement of the sheeple. Popular MO btw. So were these victims negligent? They were following the law by keeping reg/ins card as req'd. The Police, they thought ,were supposed to protect them from vehicle break ins. Oh, see the BG don't steal , they write it down. "Anything missing from vehicle?" Police will ask. "no just ransacked, my reg/ins card still here,just stole my umbrella, loose change...etc".

Often laws do nothing for good people, help bad guys.
So I think like a thief, and try to plan accordingly.

BTW, I disabled the trunk release from glove box on mom's car, her Reg/Ins card in a lockable, bolted box in trunk. Sorry officer, but this is the way it is and it will take a moment to retrieve.

If one wants to learn law , ask a career criminal. Criminals know better than most, usually appreciate anyting that benefits them...because just someting else thy are not going to obey.

NO Gun laws period...now that evens the playing field. college, college campus, state property, courthouses, and parking lots...etc. So its unfair to the BGs...screw 'em.

[CasualShooter]

re1973 ,

Good post!

[C.R.Sam]

re1973
Informative.
Thanx.

Sam

[Abenaki]

Here is what I think/feel.

It may be dumb to leave a gun in a car......but it's not illegel.
It is illegal to steal some ones gun out of a car.

Punish the person who committed the crime!!!!!!!!!

Out here in California, we have law like the one you want.
example....if some 17 year old kid breaks into my house and steals my gun.
And if that gun is not locked in a state approved safe or does not have a state aprove trigger lock on it......I can be held legally responsible for the crimes the punk commits!!!!!!:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Abenaki

[Standing Wolf]

Passing more laws won't make people any smarter.

There. That nailed it.

[Ladybug]

Thanks, I knew you guys would straighten me out (thought I'd lost my mind for a little while there)! :D

I've calmed down a little bit, but I'm still mad at that guy, and I still think that he was being really negligent. We haven't had home burglaries here lately - we've had a BUNCH of car break-ins, and he knew about it; therefore, he shouldn't have left his gun in his truck. And to answer someone's question, if I'm going to be out of town or will be out of the house for a while, aside from locking the doors, windows, etc. I DO lock up my guns.

My fear is that it's just been stupid "kids" taking advantage of easy targets (they haven't removed stereos or anything - just taken things that were lying in cars) and were probably NOT armed (of course I don't know that!!). Now I know for sure they are, which really upsets me. But I'm getting mad again...

I just want to say for the record -- I DON'T WANT ANY MORE LAWS OF ANY KIND. I agree that losing that gun was probably lesson enough for my neighbor (lets hope). Sigh. everyone please think about in whose hands your guns might end up, and along with your other safety precautions, guard them WELL against theft!!

[Tamara]

Basically, we've had a bunch of car break-ins in our neighborhood lately, and my stupid neighbor left his gun in his truck and it was stolen (and he KNEW about the other break-ins!).

I'm sorry, but this is, to me, the same as saying "Well, she shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt in an area where she knew rapes had occurred." :uhoh:

The culpability always lies with the criminal.

[sm]

Its ok Ladybug, we knew you had to vent. Just avoid driving around the "library" area...tends to raise one's bp.

Ok to lighten things up. Around UAMS there was a bunch of break ins years ago. Poor, broke hungry med students, didn't need this. So this fellow gets a real likeness of punk and hangs it from a tree in his front yard. This was in the Summer, no way to be thought of a Halloween decoration.

I mean it looked like he had hung a teenager from his elm tree. On a box, in big bold letters:

" Residental Rangers
Thieves hung on site
Zero Tolerance"

:D

You know for a good while, nobody, I mean nobody that did not live in that area hung around very long. :)

NO break- ins either.

[Ladybug]

The culpability always lies with the criminal.

Oh I TOTALLY agree and I want to wage WAR on the "criminal element" I am sooo angry at them (see my other post!)

I'm just ALSO peeved at the this guy for being so dumb.

I don't go walking around late at night in the "bad part" of town in a short skirt all alone -- not that it would be my FAULT if I got raped, but I should definately know better. Gun owners should know how to protect their guns, women should know how to protect themselves. Neither of these statements in any way takes blame away from the criminal.

If a parent leaves their 2 year old alone at the playground, and the kid gets kidnapped, the kidnapper is the criminal responsible for the kidnapping. But the parent - heartbroken though they may be at the loss of their child - bears some of the responsibility too.

That's funny re1973!!

[mattd]

Sometimes I try to convince myself gun control is good just for brain exercise but I never can. Criminals will own/carry illegal guns no matter what.

[sm]

Ladybug
I learned a truism many years ago. See I was born and raised here , the Kapitol city. I didn't understand, nor did I realize why, or the extent the resentment the other areas of the state had. I moved to the NW corner for a bit...whoa, hate is a better word! I'd travel to Fayett'Nam...different thinking even more with the Corp taking heads. I have lived in bedroom communities. Every state I have visited the outline areas, those non-kapitol cities don't like the government. In PA look at Philly vs other areas, for example.

A political machine exists here. Do research on Alltel and gun laws, that will get your goat. NLR and the gun laws in Parks recently another good example. They wanted to prohibit CCW in Parks. They held a real quick meeting and passed . NOW the real reason...NLR parks wanted to sell alcohol in parks. Aha, see the political machine wanted to sell booze, there might be a hassle to do so with the gun laws...but the public was told the gun laws, allowing CCW in parks were a bad thing if young un's played on swings. I mean EVERYBODY knows guns just get up and start firing at will--right?

The political machine is out to stuff their pockets with our money. Cold hard fact. It is hard to fight. I believe expsoing the truth to the public, attending public meetings with documentation of wrongdoingsof politicians, documentation of cold hard facts on crime stats, using the media like Dave on KARN to offset the lies is one method.

Rally the troops and if the Legislature is sober and present hit them hard with undisputable documents of facts. We have too many sheeple, but we have a bunch that are not, or fence sitting. I say play dirty,hit below the belt, go for the money and votes.

I believe in working smarter ,not harder. I also know about etiquette and proper protocol. But you know when in a fight and my opponent is trying to kill me, screw the rules, I will curse, kick in privates, scratch eyes and whatever else to survive.

The political machine is my enemy.

No I'm not well liked by some politicos...I don't care. I've always been a rebel,and a renegade when my rights and freedoms are at stake. Always will be.

[CasualShooter]

But the parent - heartbroken though they may be at the loss of their child - bears some of the responsibility too.
But you don't (or shouldn't) send the parents to jail for being stupid. Their loss is enough.

You can try to educate; but, you can't legislate common sense or intellegence.

[Denver]

Yes the culpability is always on the criminal.

Common sense also says you don't walk into a particularily rough watering hole and scream epithets at the regular patrons. I belive the responding officers would write up the incident as suicide. Similarily, leaving the gun in a known security-challenged environment was probably not the brightest thing to do. N'est ce pas?

(Oops, I forgot french is out of vogue... Oh, drat! There I go again! C'est la vie!)

I also know a person who is near and dear to me (not myself, but I am no less human than he), who left his Walther PPKS in the car when he had it detailed and didn't remember the pistol until he went looking for it a week later. Ouch.

Embarrassment and torturous wondering have been my dear friend's companions since the gun went missing. He was silly for losing the gun in such a simple way, but if the gun is ever used in a crime, I, for one certainly do not hold him responsible for the criminal actions of another.

[twoblink]

Take Los Angeles.. Currently, there are some 36,000+ gun laws if you add up federal, state, local, DOE, Fire Dept etc..

That said, if criminals aren't obeying the 36,000 laws.. How come the legislators think "Oh.. the 36,001st will make them obey.. yeah, yeah, that's what we will do. I WROTE THIS LAW, so the criminals will obey it" :rolleyes: Criminals by DEFINITION are those who don't obey laws!! So how does more laws help??

re1973, great post.. But just remember, the criminal justice system, is more criminal than just, and it favors the criminals more..

[sm]

..., the criminal justice system, is more criminal than just, and it favors the criminals more..

that's why is called the criminal justice system.:scrutiny: :rolleyes: :p

[Keith]

Now we know for sure, if they weren't already, the thugs disturbing our neighborhood are armed.

Do you think thugs don't read the want ads? Or buy/sell/trade guns with their friends, their local drug dealer, etc? How difficult would it be for YOU to get a gun without filling out a 4473? Couldn't you have one within the hour just by calling around to a few acquaintances, or picking up the newspaper?

So, yeah... I suppose the guy was careless for leaving the gun in the car when the neighborhood is having a rash of car burglaries, but let's not make more of this than it is. Guns are stolen every day, so lets not blame the victim.

Keith

[Hawk]

I don't like it when a firearm is lost due to what appears to me to be a lack of "due diligence" on the part of the owner.

That's when I pull up my old copy of "A Nation of Cowards" by Jeffrey R. Snyder and re-read the following excerpt:

Quote
In the mid-sixties there was a public service advertising campaign targeted at car owners about the prevention of car theft. The purpose of the ad was to urge car owners not to leave their keys in their cars. The message was, "Don't help a good boy go bad." The implication was that, by leaving his keys in his car, the normal, law-abiding car owner was contributing to the delinquency of minors who, if they just weren't tempted beyond their limits, would be "good." Now, in those days people still had a fair sense of just who was responsible for whose behavior. The ad succeeded in enraging a goodly portion of the populace, and was soon dropped.

Nearly all of the gun control measures offered by Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI) and its ilk embody the same philosophy. They are founded on the belief that America's law-abiding gun owners are the source of the problem. With their unholy desire for firearms, they are creating a society awash in a sea of guns, thereby helping good boys go bad, and helping bad boys be badder. This laying of moral blame for violent crime at the feet of the law-abiding, and the implicit absolution of violent criminals for their misdeeds, naturally infuriates honest gun owners.
End Quote

Full text available at
http://www.rkba.org/comment/cowards.html

Works for me, anyway.

[Ladybug]

CasualShooter,

Actually, we WOULD probably send a parent to jail for leaving their 2 year old alone at the park (and should, for sure!) But as I said, I really DON'T want to impose any laws on my neighbor (that was just a momentary frustration on my part).

Hawk,

Great post! While I also disagree about laying "blame" on the victims of these crimes, I think that certain responsible behaviors DO help to prevent crimes. Many crimes ARE crimes of opportunity. Yes, the criminals can get guns through private sale or on the black market, or by stealing them from someone else. But when someone makes stealing a gun fairly easy for them - as my neighbor did - they are contributing to the problem. I don't think some innocent youth, who was tempted beyond their control, was MADE INTO a criminal when he had the opportunity to steal the gun (obviously)... SO, my neighbor is NOT responsible for turning a "good" guy into a "bad" guy. But he sure didn't help - an act as simple as taking the gun into the house with him that night would have meant THAT gun wouldn't be in the hands of a criminal (and he'd still have his gun). I don't think asking gun owners to be vigilant against theft is asking too much.

[Bruce H]

What we really need is a law that doesn't make it illegal to leave these parasites laying in the street where we find them. They can and they will as long as we can't and won't.

[CZ-100]

You gotta put the blame where it is; on the thief.. Is there more that could have been done? Yes. But remember, it's all set in motion by an illegal action..

What you need is not "more laws", but tougher penalties.. The Charmin wiping of criminals just makes me

Harsher punishment WORKS. My friend went to the middle east, and to his surprise, there were no locks on doors. He asked "what if my stuff gets stolen?" They laughed, most people would rather keep their left hand..

I agree illegal action.. is the only thing that should be blamed

[CasualShooter]

Actually, we WOULD probably send a parent to jail for leaving their 2 year old alone at the park (and should, for sure!)
Ladybug,

That really isn't the best example for the point I was trying to make. I hadn't thought about the possibility of intentional child abondonment which IMHO is very different from pure stupidity.

I don't think we should generally be charging people with crimes and putting people in jail when they suffer a tragedy in the family owing to moments of tempory stupidity without any criminal intent. IMHO the personal tragedy they suffer is generally enough without adding criminal prosecution. Unfortunately, I think that this is too often the case in today's world when there are so many that are quick to judge others and want to run other peoples lives.

I am reminded of an experience I had when I was about 3 or 4 years old.
My dad took me with him to a large Sears and Roebuck Retail Department Store in a Major City. It was crowded, full of shoppers. I was walking beside my dad, holding his hand, at first, and sticking real close to him so I wouldn't get separated or lost, or so I thought. There was a lot of activity in the store and I was looking all around trying to take it all in. After awhile, I looked up at dad and guess what! The man I was walking beside wasn't Dad! :eek: Well, I started crying for dad, and some people took me to the desk for 'lost and found' and after awhile dad showed up and all was well.

Could something bad have happened to me? Yes.
My father was anything but stupid; but, did he have a stupid moment? Yes.
Was it criminal? Should he have been punished? I think not!

Who among us has not had a 'Stupidity Attack'? I will admit to having one or two in MY life.

My grandmother was one of the wisest people I ever new and one of her favorite sayings was, "mind your own business". If more people would do that today, perhaps they would have less trouble with their own kids and we would all benefit. I'm not trying to pick on the kids -- just another example.

Another of grandma's favorites was, "tell me who you run with, and I'll tell you who you are". I think I'm in pretty good company on this board. :D