[twoblink]

I'm not understanding how a 2nd civil war would play out.

First, let me state the obvious! We have guns!! They don't!!

They would NEED to use guns to take our guns away.. So guns for them and their cause is ok, but for our cause.. no?

:confused:

Is this a case of "all animals are created equal, some more equal than others"???

[Pheonix]

Who do you thing the war would be with?

[Pilgrim]

They will have mercenaries fighting for their side.

Pilgrim

[Brett Bellmore]

What's the army, chopped liver? And don't forget that they've got the media on their side; However well justified such a war might hypothetically be, the average person, (Including the average gun owner!) will be under the impression that the pro-gun side is actually a bunch of racist murderers intent on imposing a police state on the survivors of the system of death camps they intend to create...

It might come to civil war, but if it does, it won't be pretty, and the result will be far from assured.

[Joe Demko]

Not to mention plague zombies and spikey-haired mutants.

[DigitalWarrior]

Collectivists, Fascists, and Statists have no problem shooting masses of people in the name of loving their brother.

Mao was just trying to build a good society.

[Frohickey]

I don't understand.

Which are the sides on Civil War II?

[DigitalWarrior]

It will be us vs them ;)

[Kaylee]

rambling thoughts on Civil War II, revolution, and the whole "SHTF" thing:

First, I think we have to remember that most folks simply don't CARE about the gun issue. Just like I'd bet most folks here wouln't care to put their lives on the line one way or the other over whatever the latest flap Greenpeace is raising. ANWR? Drill it, leave it, whatever... ain't worth writing a letter over, much less risking jailtime or gettin' shot at. Most everyone in the US thinks the same thing over the AWB and all its related monstrosities.

So if there IS an armed conflict, it would likely be between loose alliances on both sides. What could set it off? Your guess is as good as mine, but my bet is a tax protest turned nasty. And both sides ARE represented at all levels of the gov't and military. Clark, nut that he is, proves that right enough, eh? Same with the politico police chiefs in the big cities denying CCW every way they can. Not all our friends have guns, not all our enemies are unarmed.

But let's go a little deeper.. lets say it does come to war. For whatever reason, the S really has H the F, and all the ARs and AKs come out of the closets. What happens next?

First, I believe it's a big misconception to think another civil war would be a "force of armies" clash like the last one. These days I'm inclined to think if Americans ever start trying to kill each other en masse again, it'll look a whole lot more like the moderday Israeli/Palesetianian clash than Gettysburg.

Not armies running around after each other in the woods, over in five years kinda thing, but a decades-long series of headlines like "Senator X assasinated, Z Building blown up, Group Y leader arrested, Neighborhood squabble Turns Bloody, etc etc etc"

Sad... and worse really than total war I think, as it could just drag on indefinately without one side or the other saying "enough, I give" and too much animosity over spilled blood for either side to say "enough, let's be friends again." That's the big reason I'm not big on "SHTF" type threads.. I tend to think the guys playing Wolverines in the Idaho mountains will be gone to FLIR equipped Apaches within a week, or ignored 'cause what meaningful objective can you take ninety miles from McCall Idaho? Other than peeve a few elk, there ain't much to do.

Meanwhile, the blood djinni's out of the bottle and everybody gets hurt.

So lets look at where we are. We're in an ongoing guerilla bloodfeud, and there's no Rules of Engagement to speak of. Nor do we have a defined objective beyond "put our guys in power." And without a defined, agreed upon objective and ROE, how do you know when you've won and can stop shooting people? Further... there's the little problem of co-operation.

Libertarians -- are you willing to trust your life and operational security to a straight-line Christian conservative? And vice versa? If we can't get along on this board when certain hot button topics come up, is a cohesive operation when lives are on the line possible? Especially given the inevitable moles that WILL be brought in for the express purpose of exploiting those divisions? I'm dubious.


SO... where am I going with all this?

To me, all the above says ONE THING. That is that Civil War is presently a redundancy. If we have the numbers and organization to win a violent confrontation, then we have the numbers and organization within this Republic to meet our ends through peaceful means.

If we do NOT have those numbers and organization, then opening the bottle of revolution will get us NOWHERE. Same squabbles, same back and forth, same everything... except people die. Heck with that.


[off soapbox]

-K

[ctdonath]

Red Zone vs. Blue Zone.

Go look at election maps (the more detailed the better). The Bush vs. Gore map is the standard (Bush majority is red, Gore majority is blue). There is a remarkably consistent dividing line: rural areas swing right, urban areas swing left, with a rather sharp division. The latest incarnation was the CA recall election - while Arnold won by a landslide, Davis STILL managed to win the urban areas outright. In a prior case, Hillary won NY only by the urban areas. The division is sharp, consistent, remarkable, and someday...

I'm afraid that some high-profile polarizing event will get over-reported by the news media, inducing an "us vs. them" mentality on both sides of the voting line. As urbanites are so dependent on rural folk (food, water), and are keen on enacting...er..."forced cooperation" upon more independent & self-sufficient citizens, Red Zone folks could decide "enough is enough" which would induce more "forced cooperation" and result in a downward spiral.

Example:
The Kamath Falls case happens again, but this time the farmers decide to take their water supply back...and a whole lot more water otherwise redirected to CA (turns out CA takes most of the water from several states). LA, SF, etc. residents promptly have a fraction of their normal yet unnatural water supply (rediscovering the fact that their natural environment is desert) and seek to force the restoration of their questionably-obtained water sources (see "Cadallac Desert" for the very interesting history). Urbanites send in their mercinaries, farmers reach into their closets, and the result is a very rapid collapse of order in several states.

Unfortunately, as the dividing line is very complex and formed around political islands, the resulting breakdown would be much more difficult to address than the prior (and even then, very bloody) North vs. South.

May such a scenario never happen. May those who lead learn well from history.

[AZRickD]

Just a little side issue...

Mr. Pheonix...

It's spelled P H O E N I X.

Rick
Phonics, Arizona

Oh, back on topic. ..

The good guys (the ones without armor and attack helicopters) would not be engaging masses of troops (unless they couldn't escape fast enough).

They would be engaged in targets of opportunity. Political targets of opportunity. Why take on a few hundred thousand "loyal" troops when they are controled by a handful of federal legislators, governors, mayors, sheriffs, and Chiefs of Police?

Knock off a few statist congress critters or mayors. Security tightens around them. Molotov cocktail through their family business. Security increases. Where is the good Senator's wife? Oops. Colateral damage. Fighting a million troops is difficult. Fighting 535+50+1,000+3043+... is easier.

90-million gun owners.

Let's say only 1% have the gumption to do anything. 900,000 random, mostly nameless sabateurs, assassins, and spies.

And then there are the non-gun owners who will join in just because.

It will take a massive trigger for this to happen. A trigger the bad guys are trying to avoid (frog in the pot, and all that).

Rick
Where'd I put that tin hat?

[Standing Wolf]

Is this a case of "all animals are created equal, some more equal than others"???

No, of course not. It's just that our social betters know better than we what's good for us—but of course, we don't have an aristocracy, self-appointed or otherwise.

[Moparmike]

Ok, so they would have the Armed Forces. Just how many of them would turn on the citizens? I realize they are trained to follow orders, but many a soldier come from rural places where they would be fighting for the cause w/ Dad if not in the AFs.

Also, where will the left get these "Mercenaries"?

[twoblink]

When money is involved, they can get people to do anything, including shoot their neighbors, and I think that is something I seriously believe.

I'm wondering if we gun owners are doing this all wrong..

It would seem (a la Kaylee) that a bloody war is the last thing on the minds of gun owners Christmas want list (despite the portrait the media paints) and that the move would/should/will move to the cyber world.

As a cryptographer, it seems much easier to cripple an entire administration electronically than with an M1A, and 1 person can do MASSIVE damage to a city infrastructure compared to what the a person with a gun can do..

I see heavy pressure from the UN to create a "gunless world" or a "gunless citizenship".. Where the serfs don't get guns, but the "rulers" do..

I'm currently trying to finish up my short story about the second mini civial war waged by a few people.. And wanted to get some general comments about it.. and wanted to see what most people think..

Not really a SHTF thread, just wanted to clarify a few things..

[spartacus2002]

Regarding US military forces vs. citizens...

I wonder, after years of house-to-house searches for weapons in places like Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., whether US military forces would have a problem with doing the same here in America, especially if it was directed against a portion of the population that is easily demonized, such as Aryan Nations, Michigan Militia, KKK, etc.

[MuzzleBlast]

Also, where will the left get these "Mercenaries"?The UN, maybe?

[Joe Demko]

Re: Urban vs Rural

True, city dwellers are dependent on farming in rural areas for their food supplies. Rural areas are pretty damned far from self-sufficient, however. Tools, medical supplies, machine parts, gasoline, and lots and lots and lots of other things are produced in these buildings called "factories" that are typically found in more urbanized settings. If you mean living at a subsistence-agriculture level, then I guess you could say the rural areas are more self-sufficient. Think, though, can you grow your own insulin? Going to have the local blacksmith hand-forge you an engine block for a Japanese-made tractor? Is the antibiotic fairy going to leave some penicillin under your pillow when you have a badly abcessed tooth?
There is an interdependancy between rural and urban, and you are badly kidding yourself if you believe that your typical rural person is the straight-shooting, self-sufficient yeoman farmer that is so much mythologized on boards like this one. In past troubled times, all over the world, the net movement of people was from the country to the city, not vice versa. The only times we see the reverse were during comparatively short-term events such as cities being under attack. Kaylee hit it dead on the head with the notion that the majority of people don't give a hoot about the things that keep you fired up. When rural life starts to become too uncomfortable and inconvenient, an awful lot of country folk are going to up and leave. Call them refugees, if you like, they are still going to head for the nearest town where the lights are still on.
Are there some self-sufficient rural folks? Absolutely. I simply question what substantive changes they can make to the nationwide political scene during a civil war when the greatest part of their energies is devoted to grubbing enough rutebagas out of the ground to avoid starving during the winter.

[Thumper]

Golgo,

With your heavily liberal bent, I can understand why you might be in denial, but ctdonath got it right: Red v. Blue...and guess who has the shooters?

Another factor...for better or for worse, there are a LOT of people on "our" side who actively want something like this to happen. Personally, I think they're nuts, but I'm glad they're on "my" team. Zealots tend to be thorough.

Hope I never see it.

[PeteyPete]

Related but seperate topic: Would the US military actually take part in a civil war against either side? Most of the military is from the South, and despite their non-partisan stance make no bones about their disdain for the left (even here in liberal NJ, most military men i know are Republican/Libertarian).

I can't really imagine our military taking part in disarming and subjugating they're parents, brothers and neighbors.....maybe i'm wrong.

[Joe Demko]

Thumper,
I am not a liberal. I am a realist. I grew up in the boondocks, own property there still, and live well outside the nearest urban region. I know country life and country people. If it makes you feel more comfortable in your cocoon to label me a liberal, though, it costs me nothing and soothes your disquiet.
"Our" side has the shooters? You need to expand on that. Lots of folks have guns and lots of folks have been through the military. The notion that "our" side has a monopoly on guns and the knowledge of their use is rather amusing. Zealots are often thorough, but neither side has a cornered the market on that breed.
Maybe you should also consider that the cities are packed with young men who have no qualms about killing another person. They've grown up surrounded by it. The willingness to take another's life with no hesitation is often worth more in combat than the ability to shoot 1" groups at 100 yards. Kaylee was also dead right about another civil war not being a clash of armies. Maybe you should go back and re-read that post.

[Thumper]

Ah...not a liberal?

Someone else must have been posting using your password all this time. :D

You might not consider yourself a liberal, but your postings put you somewhere to the left of Pelosi.

Either way...there's no denying we are a 50/50 nation. Red v. Blue, with the sides becoming increasingly militant and angry.

When defending the military prowess of our cities, you mention the killing capacity of our gangsters...as a "realist" who grew up in the "boondocks," would you take the country boy with the 700 ADL or the gangster with the Lorcin?

The more I think about it, you're right; my cocoon becomes more comfortable. :evil:

[45crittergitter]

Hey guys, how can there be a second civil war when we have not had a first one? A civil war, by definition, is a war between two or more factions for control of a single country/government. The so-called U.S. civil war was not one. That war occurred between two countries, the United States of America, and the Confederate States of America, when one soverign nation, the USA, invaded and attacked another soverign nation, the CSA. It was not a war between states, nor a civil war. It was not a fight for control of the existing US government. It occurred only after the southern states had legally left the union (statehood is not a permanently binding commitment, but a voluntary union) and had then formed their own country. The war probably is most accurately called a war for southern independence, or perhaps the southern/confederate revolution.

We get so upset when people misrepresent gun related history or terminology, and here we go doing the same thing with US history.


“If a man is going to try to kill me by taking the time to use two hands and focus on the sights of his handgun, it just means that God loves me best.” - Bill Jordan

[Joe Demko]

The thing about cocoons is that the view from inside is somewhat restricted. Again, if it makes you comfortable to hang that label on me, knock yourself out.

50/50 nation? Guess again. 90+% of the nation cares for nothing but maintaining their present comfortable lifestyle. Perhaps 5% at either end of the political spectrum are the ones that are active, and some tiny percentage of that forms the zealots. That 90+% includes rural people.

Your stereotyping of country boy vs. gangster would be amusing if it weren't just a media-supplied cliche you find comforting. TV. How would we know what "those" people are like without it? But just for laffs, I'll play along. In a clash of armies, your country boy has the advantage. On the other hand, there isn't a lot of difference between a Lorcin and a Liberator pistol. If a "resistance fighter" could use a Liberator to relieve a German soldier of his Mauser, I don't see the impossibility of your stereotypical gangster using his Lorcin to deprive that country boy of both his life and his ADL. Of course, if you find it comforting to believe that the country boy will always have advance knowledge of attack and that his enemies will always move obediently around in the open and in broad daylight, and that his enemies are all stupid and all cowards, go ahead and knock yourself out with that too.

[Yanus]

What would a 2nd Civil War look like?

Lebanon in the 70's.:scrutiny:


Yanus

[Thumper]

Carefull golgo, overestimating the complacency of the sheep has been the downfall of many Big Government types historically.

Me? I'm busy knocking myself out. :D

To be honest, I don't really believe that a civil war is imminent...but if we had one, the Left would be Lunch.

[RocketMan]

Golgo-13

Consider, though, that an abscessed tooth takes a while to develop.
And yes, you might need a new engine block for your Japanese tractor. But that's next week.

Hunger is immediate. It happens right now. On the second day when all the grocery store shelves are empty and the warehouses are stripped, where will those in the cities get food?

I think those subsistence farmers are going to try very hard to hang on to the rutebagas they've grubbed out of the ground.

[Joe Demko]

You answered your own question, Rocket Man. The farmers are going to have all sorts of people trying to take those rutebagas off of them. Some of them will be hungry rabble, easily run off with a shot or two. Some of them will be hard-core criminal sorts who are both ruthless and organized. Not every criminal is a "gangsta with a Lorcin." Finally, let us not forget that there will be government functionaries w/ plenty of firepower who will likely be "requisitioning" some or all of the rutebagas for redistribution. However much some would like to think it so, this isn't going to be as easy as just letting them city folk starve.
Boards like this have a far too idealized vision of what rural people are like. The majority of them are no more prepared for societal breakdown than their rural counterparts.

[RocketMan]

Golgo-13,

Your point in this scenario seemed to be that there would be movement from the rural areas to the cities to obtain non-food necessities.
I am saying that the movement would be in the opposite direction due to the more immediate need for food.

But I did assume a complete breakdown of governmental control.
If some form of government remains, then the farmers might be forced to give up some of those rutebagas.

But I think they might object. The farmers I knew in my extended family were a pretty independent lot. Guns in the closet, lots of canned goods put up in the cellar. You know the drill.
And they were more concerned about their own family and friends before anyone else.

[SaintofKillers]

These kind of threads are really starting to ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, oh sorry what was I saying Oh yeah enough already about gunowners against the gov. It will never happen, most of us are sitting around letting our rights being taken away very slowly and doing nothing about it. Back to zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Gordon Fink]

How many “yeoman farmers” are left in the United States? Last time I checked, the vast majority of the agricultural industry was controlled by big corporations. The few remaining independent growers also depend on the big packers to buy their product. In turn, both big agriculture and the small grower depend heavily on the migrant labor of non-citizens.

Furthermore, the rural population isn’t made up just of yeoman farmers and migrant peasants. Probably the fastest growing contingent is wealthy urbanites who are heavily invested in the manufacturing and financial industries of the cities. Whose “side” will these powerful folks be on in the event of an urban vs. rural conflict?

~G. Fink

[twoblink]

Wow..

<insert white flag here>

Can't we all just get along???

It seems to me, it comes down to the actions of the military. I'm not really scared of the Tree-hugging hemp smoking, vegetarian from SF, I'm more intimidated by the military.

A door to door confiscation is only possible when the military forces are used. Regardless of what I think of the left, It is difficult for me to imagine them wanting the UN's troops to come door to door on American soil. (But I might be wrong in underestimating their stupidity)

The Rural areas will be defended, it now is a Urban issue I think. When the riots break out in the Urban areas, a state of emergancy might be called and the troops brought in to lock down a city, and then the gun laws are tightened.. And only after that, will they go door to door.. (maybe)

The sheriffs in TX I know, don't give a rat's behind about the legality or illegality of your gun ownership. They always just tell my friends "Don't shoot anybody you aren't suppose to" and that's pretty much it.

[johnr]

Go over the checklist and decide for yourself how close we are:

Civil War II "The Comming Breakup of America" A Checklist, by Thomas W. Chittum
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/991163/posts

[Mad Man]

Enemy Within: A Novel of the Next American Civil War

Unfortunately, publication of this (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=6U8HY37YPI&isbn=0895262738&itm=16) was cancelled after I placed my order. Weinberger (former Secy. of Defense for President Reagan) and Schweizer wrote The Next War (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895264471/qid=1043195984/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-4423442-2644120?v=glance&s=books) a few years before this.


Enemy within: A Novel of the Next Civil War

Caspar Weinberger (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?userid=67ERM9WOCM&mscssid=7K69K9K395S92NGE0017QUW4X36EE42A&author_last=Weinberger&author_first=Caspar&match=exact&options=and) Peter Schweizer (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?userid=67ERM9WOCM&mscssid=7K69K9K395S92NGE0017QUW4X36EE42A&author_last=Schweizer&author_first=Peter&match=exact&options=and)


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bn.com Price: $27.95
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From The Publisher
For more than a century, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, has been the place where the United States prepares its most promising commanders to prepare for the next crisis. Increasingly, they anticipate a domestic role for the military. This year military leaders conducted a hypothetical wargame called Prairie Warrior. The scenario: a rebellion in the continental United States. From this true beginning, best-selling authors Caspar Weinberger and Peter Schweizer spin off the political thriller of the year.

State leaders in Idaho, Montana, Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas have launched referenda in 2012 to reject widespread federal authority. When the initiatives pass with narrow majorities, and governors sympathetic to the movement are elected in these states, a constitutional crisis develops. Newly elected President Morgan Boyd must deal with a Union that appears to be dissolving. Sensing the opportunity to make trouble, America's friends and enemies get involved, looking for an opportunity to benefit from the domestic political turmoil and the uncertainty in the armed forces.

This book will not only provide plenty of action, it will also address some profoundly important questions concerning the role of government, and warnings about the apparent trend toward a greater domestic role for the armed forces.

[WvaBill]

"The sheriffs in TX I know, don't give a rat's behind about the legality or illegality of your gun ownership. They always just tell my friends "Don't shoot anybody you aren't suppose to" and that's pretty much it."

Sounds like WV SP and SD.
;)

[twoblink]

The LEO's in Kern county are pretty cool..

They do have one huge problem though;

Everytime I've gone up there, had a LEO tell me "Err.. Whatcha shootin? Is it illegal? Is it fun? Can I take a shot?"

And they end up taking like 2-3 mags...

[telewinz]

Sounds like the pulp paperback book "The Crash of '79, 81,83, 87, 91 " and so on. The Chicken Little's in the World get boring after awhile. Before writing was invented they were painting gloom and doom on cave walls. It passes the time of day I guess.:scrutiny:


Hunger is immediate. It happens right now. On the second day when all the grocery store shelves are empty and the warehouses are stripped, where will those in the cities get food?

Hmmm....thats a tasty, I mean nice pair of biceps you have, do you work out much?:D

[telewinz]

I'm afraid that some high-profile polarizing event will get over-reported by the news media, inducing an "us vs. them" mentality on both sides of the voting line. As urbanites are so dependent on rural folk (food, water), and are keen on enacting...er..."forced cooperation" upon more independent & self-sufficient citizens, Red Zone folks could decide "enough is enough" which would induce more "forced cooperation" and result in a downward spiral.

How quickly they forget....it already happened. The race riots of the 60's, the Vietnam War and the '68 Democratic Convention. I remember it all because I sat at home and watched it on TV like everyone else did and WILL DO in the future!

[hammer4nc]

Before writing was invented they were painting gloom and doom on cave walls. It passes the time of day I guess.

Was this about the same time when "we were eating are children's brains"?
:p