[p4+riot]

I was at the gun shop the other day and was
talking to the guy behind the counter. I asked him
what he was carrying and he pulled out his 1911 loaded
with FMJ's.

I have always thought that it was a bad idea to
use those for self defense as they can overpenetrate.

It got me thinking though, maybe it's a good idea to
have atleast one full mag of FMJ's on standby in case
I need something that will penetrate. Perhaps the bad
guy is hiding behind a car or something.

Anyone else keeping some FMJ's on hand just in case?

[DeepSouth]

If I carry anything smaller than a .45 (Which is rare) I carry +P fmj's, usually flat nosed. I think under penetration is far more likely than over penetration. Especially in a normally short barreled CCW. Not to mention cutting down on feeding issues. Even with my .45 I keep an extra mag of fmj's handy. (Glove compartment, usually)

[DHJenkins]

JHP's for SD, anything else for practice (for me).

[rbernie]

If the bad guy is hiding in a car - that's my opportunity to put some serious distance between me and them. I am not a LEO and I do not have any duty to shoot at anything that isn't an immediate threat to me.

I carry bonded JHPs, that give decent penetration and expansion simultaneously.

[Old Fuff]

I often carry FMJ, especially is smaller calibers. I want penetration, and am more worried about too little, then too much. I may have to reach out and touch someone that's behind cover, or the bullet may have to penetrate at a longer angle. The chances of hitting someone behind my intended target are highly remote, but if that is a factor I'll hold my fire.

Also some pistols feed hardball more reliably - possibly because the gun was designed around them. :scrutiny:

[axeman_g]

I got with Fluff on this one... FMJs are reliable all the time, especially round nose. In a def gun I have an order of item I need;
I want ultra reliability, then power, then speed/handling.

Give me 9mm fmj or 45fmj anyday. I like JHPs, but the must be proven reliable to me .... 500rds without a hiccup and I have only had that happen in one gun, one time.

[geronimo509]

I am the opposite of most people who posted so far. I would only consider carrying FMJ's in a 45 because i would not be worried about over penetration. But when I carry my 9mm, I will always carry HP's because the 9mm will over penetrate with FMJ's.

I carry HP's in both, but does my thinking make sense? I have been wrong before so let me know and please explain.

[Deanimator]

The chances of hitting someone behind my intended target are highly remote, but if that is a factor I'll hold my fire.
Those "chances" weren't all that "remote" for the NYPD which had a SERIOUS problem with overpenetration and woundings and deaths of bystanders. It's what finally pushed them over the edge to authorizing JHPs.

There was recently a well publicized self-defense shooting at an Akron pizza shop. The store owner shot the hold up man with a 9x19mm pistol loaded with FMJs. A number of his shots were through and throughs which left deep dents in a steel door in front of which the robber was standing. If that door hadn't been there, there's no telling where those bullets would have gone.

I'll cheerfully justify shooting a guy with a sawed off shotgun, trying to rob me. I CAN'T justify shooting through that robber and killing a toddler, out of sight, twenty feet away. There's no such thing as a "justifiable accidental shooting". It's almost certain I wouldn't go to jail. It's almost equally certain that I'd be sued and lose.

A choice between endangering bystanders or being passively shot by an assailant is, for me anyway, an unacceptable one.

[Just One Shot]

I alternate FMJ and JHP in every mag for every handgun I own.

The first round out is a FMJ and the second is a JHP and so on.

This way I don't have to worry about penetration vs expansion. It's the best of both worlds as they say.

;)

[rbernie]

I often carry FMJ, especially is smaller calibers.Fuff brings up a good point that I glossed over in my reply. I normally carry 9x19 or 40S&W or 45ACP, and in those chamberings I do not carry ball ammo. But I only carry FMJ in my mouseguns, since those chamberings aren't powerful enough to guarantee 12" of penetration using a HP bullet design.

[Deanimator]

This way I don't have to worry about penetration vs expansion. It's the best of both worlds as they say.
Hitting grandma standing behind my assailant three times instead of six doesn't have any benefits that I can think of.

If I find myself in Afghanistan, shooting two people with one shot will probably be an advantage. In Rocky River, Ohio, not so much.

[p4+riot]

This is getting good. You have given me a lot to
think about. I'm also wondering about the legalities.
If I did shoot off a few rounds in a self defense situation
and one hit an innocent, would having full metals make
me more liable in court or would it matter?

[MHBushmaster]

You are responsible for every shot you take...use HP ammo.

IF your first shot doesn't penetrate enough to stop the threat, you CAN shoot again.

IF your first shot overpenetrates and hits an innocent person beyond your threat, you CANNOT take that shot back.

Using 230gr hardball in a .45 is lunacy. Use a modern generation HP bullet like the Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST. Modern ammo exists for short barreled handguns that designs the HP bullet for less velocity due to the short barrel.

[Deanimator]

Using 230gr hardball in a .45 is lunacy.
I wouldn't call it "lunacy", but I'd certainly call it a pointless gamble.

I consider being in a gunfight AT ALL a gamble where anything can happen. Adding an entirely tangential and uncontrollable variable really seems like adding unneeded dangers.

Hitting my target without myself getting shot seems like enough to worry about. Why would I want to add whether I'm going to hurt a bystander even if I do EVERYTHING right?

And as an added note on reliability, my first handgun and former self-defense gun was a Series 70 Colt, purchased in 1979. Out of the box, it would feed Speer "Flying Ashtrays" 100%. It would NOT reliably feed 230gr. ball until it had broken in after a couple of hundred rounds.

[Lone_Gunman]

Clint Smith carries FMJ's, but what does he know?

[MHBushmaster]

What Clint Smith carries is no defense if you kill or shoot someone with a through and through gunshot wound.

Think.

Delta Force uses FMJ, does that mean its the best thing to use?

[HexHead]

Of all the self defense calibers, I'd feel more comfortable carrying .45 in FMJ. That big ol' slow bullet.

Time to get out the gelatin blocks and see how deeply a 230 gr FMJ penetrates, vs a JHP? Or how deeply compared to the +P JHP many carry?

[rbernie]

Clint Smith carries FMJ's, but what does he knowI'm sure that he knows a fair bit :) but I'm also sure that he will not be at my gunfight nor do I likely share his choice of chambering or carry firearm.

All that renders his opinion useful for him, and my opinion useful for me.

I am not so dogmatic that I cannot separate the two.

[KevininPa]

.380-fmj 100gr
9mm-jhp 125gr
.38 Special-lswc or lswchp 158gr
.357(town)-jhp 158gr
.357(woods)-jsp 158gr

[bratch]

I carry FMJ to, from and while at classes rest of the time its JHP.

[axeman_g]

"I carry FMJ to and from and while at classes rest of the time its JHP"

___ why the alteration?

[bratch]

"I carry FMJ to and from and while at classes rest of the time its JHP"

___ why the alteration?

One less thing to screw with.

I take all my classes with my carry gear; I put a mag of FMJ before leaving for class and trade the mag out for JHPs once I get home. I don't have to mess with changing mags when I get to class, when I go to lunch, when I get back form lunch, when I go to the hotel, I just run FMJs the whole time.

If I happen to get in a gun fight while at a class I'll just have to make due with FMJ.

[Tropical Buzz]

Another real world factor to consider is that unless you are cc'ing in a nudist colony and are likely to be shooting at nekkid folks, most JHP's will often plug with fabric and overpenetrate when shot through heavy clothing. Even down here in the tropics, most perpetrator types tend to favour thick, heavy layered garments, leading me to wonder if we just aviod the idiots and wait long enough, maybe they will all just succumb to heat stroke?:confused:

[Lone_Gunman]

What Clint Smith carries is no defense if you kill or shoot someone with a through and through gunshot wound.

If you really think hollow points protect you from over penetration, you are sadly mistaken. I have seen hundreds of gunshot wound victims over the last 20 years and have not detected a difference in hollowpoints versus FMJ's in terms of over penetration. I would also say that hollowpoints fail to expand at least half the time.

I would also think that what experts carry is in fact part of your defense if you are sued after a shooting.

[rbernie]

I would also say that hollowpoints fail to expand at least half the timeWhich renders then equal to FMJs - no? ;)

[jon_in_wv]

I don't know why anyone would carry a ccw that only reliably fed FMJ. HPs are pretty widely accepted as being better. Get a better weapon and carry better ammo. Those people who buy into the idea the human body is so tough that 32s and 38s just bounce off the skin and 9mms and 40 FMJs are more likely to UNDER penetrate likely have little experience shooting things with these calibers or have been misinformed by the internet ninjas. NYPD is a very good example of what happens when you use FMJs. They even used very mildly loaded ones form my understanding. +p or hot loaded FMJs will go through a human body pretty reliably. I agree with FMJs in small calibers like 22 or 32 that don't deliver enough velocity and energy to push a HP with enough penetration but in good 380/9mm/40/45 I think anyone is better served with JHPs.

[Kentucky]

I alternate FMJ and JHP in every mag for every handgun I own.

The first round out is a FMJ and the second is a JHP and so on.

This way I don't have to worry about penetration vs expansion. It's the best of both worlds as they say.

What kind of POI difference do you see between the two different kinds of ammo?

Also, I am curious about something. Most of the people in this thread who are advocating HP keep talking about doing it to minimize overpenetration and the risk of hurting bystanders. Do you not feel that the HP give you more of a chance of stopping the BG faster, or do you only do it for liability purposes? I thought it was pretty well universally conceded that in smaller calibers like 9MM it took a HP type projectile (like a Hydrashock) to bring the calibers effectiveness up to "adequate."

[jon_in_wv]

Not to mention JHP technology and construction have come a long way in 20 years. I wouldn't campare the performance of the older JHPs to modern ones.

[Lone_Gunman]

Which renders then equal to FMJs - no?

No, it makes them worse than FMJ's because you get the feeding liability of JHPs but do not get the benefit of expansion. A hollowpoint that fails to expand gives you the drawbacks of the FMJ (ie, no expansion) with the drawbacks of a JHP (possible feeding issues).

I doubt there has ever been a situation where someone has said "gee, I am glad I have JHPs in my gun, or else I would not be able to safely take this shot". If it is not safe to take a shot with FMJ, its not safe to take it with JHP.

[Kurt S.]

I commonly carry a mousegun- .32 NAA or .380 Keltec P3AT. The .32 has S&B 73 grain FMJ, which run a little hotter than US loads and the Keltect has WWB 95 grain, which has a relatively large and flat meplat.

[youngda9]

.40 S&W Golden Sabre 165 grain bonded JHP

No reason for anyone to carry FMJ. Find ones that work reliably for you and carry them.

Carry the most effective threat stopper...and that is an HP.

[Ed Ames]

As I read the numbers it isn't a big issue.

Most defensive handgun effect comes from displaying the weapon.
The second biggest effect comes from conditioned shock responses ("I've been shot!" Faint.).
The third biggest effect comes from CNS damage.
The fourth biggest effect comes from blood loss.
The sixth biggest comes from muscular/skeletal injury (broken bones, severed muscles).

And so on.

HP ammo only starts improving the effectiveness at 3rd or 4th on that list.

That said, if given a choice HP is good.

[geronimo509]

Carry the most effective threat stopper...and that is an HP.

+1... and I see no reason why this should continue:neener:

Plus I think that someone tried to start another caliber war too:banghead:(However, I might be mistaken).

[Guy de Loimbard]

Sometimes I carry FMJ, it depends on the pistol. In my 9x18's I use FMJ. All my other pistols are larger calibers so I use HP's with those.

[Gun Slinger]

Anyone carry FMJ's?

Yep. At the range.

As for CCW/SD, I follow expert advice from the likes Dr. Martin Fackler, Duncan MacPherson and Dr. Gary Roberts and carry well designed, premium JHPs intended for the applications of CCW/SD/HD.

I leave the FMJs for "paper-punching" and for "fun" shooting like knocking over tin cans at the range.

[Lone_Gunman]

Fackler will tell you that he cannot tell the difference between FMJ wounds and JHP wounds.

[Gun Slinger]

Fackler will tell you that he cannot tell the difference between FMJ wounds and JHP wounds.


Since I am certain that you do not speak for Dr. Fackler, I'd like to see verifiable proof of this "assertion".

Quote? Source? Proof? Document? Link?

[Pork Fat]

I know this would not apply to anyone here, but in the event of a missed shot does the FMJ not tend to ricochet a bit more/further?

[The Lone Haranguer]

I carry 9mm and would not use FMJs due to lack of "stopping power" and greater risk of overpenetration. In the .45 caliber, these problems are less pronounced due to the larger, blunter, slower bullet.

[Deanimator]

Clint Smith carries FMJ's, but what does he know?
He knows he's willing to take the additional chance of a through and through.

I know I'm not.

Massad Ayoob carries JHPs, but what does he know?

[The Wiry Irishman]

I carry FMJ in my PPK/s because I haven't found a hollowpoint that both gets acceptable penetration and feeds reliably.

[Deanimator]

I would also think that what experts carry is in fact part of your defense if you are sued after a shooting.
Massad Ayoob carries JHPs.

There's NO defense to shooting a bystander with a through and through of your target. Either you did it or you didn't. There's no way to justify it. You might not be prosecuted, but I guarantee that if you shoot somebody and hit me with an FMJ, I'm going to sue you. I'm going to win too.

[Lone_Gunman]

Quote? Source? Proof? Document? Link?

I dont have time to find a quote on that, but he has said that for a given diameter permanent wound channel, there is no difference in the severity of a wound caused by a JHP versus a FMJ. The permanent channel diameter is, of course, important, but the wound itself will be no different. There is nothing inherently more deadly about a JHP wound channel. Diameter is all that matters. I will try to find the source I am referencing and send it when I get the time.

You might not be prosecuted, but I guarantee that if you shoot somebody and hit me with an FMJ, I'm going to sue you. I'm going to win too.


I have no doubt you would win, regardless of whether I was using a FMJ or JHP. If I shoot a bad guy and it hits a bystander, I am liable no matter what

[MHBushmaster]

First off, read up on modern HP designs. They don' just clog up and perform worse than FMJ bullets.

Let us talk .45acp, as you would probably say its the best FMJ performer.

Here is Corbon's .45acp load using the Barnes Expander HP bullets
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/45_Barnes-Taurus_vs_RA45T.jpg
Notice the lack of the HP bullet getting "plugged up" in denim. 3rd and 4th Generation Hollow Point bullets have resolved that plug up issue that was problematic with Gen 1 Silver Tips and Federals much touted 1st Gen Hydra-Shock HP bullet designs.

More new HP bullets and how they perform:
Federal HST (this is what I carry in my 1911, they feed 100% reliably just like ball ammo does).
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/FedHST_newtest.jpg


Finally, take 230gr .45acp Ball ammo.
This is what you get:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/45ACP%20230gr%20FMJ.jpg

"A picture is worth a thousand words..."

[c5_nc]

I wouldn't want to get shot with either. Anyone see the snipershide test where the .22lr hollow point pentrated through (3 of 5 shots) a partially frozen turkey wraped in 3 layers of clothes at 250 yds. On the flip side I had a relative that had to put a second 45 in the chest of a attacker b/c the first round went through and did not stop him. I carry JHP in all calibers except 380 if it works good with the gun. I have a pocket carry that is not fully broken in yet (or bugs worked out) that I carry a single JHP round followed by FMJs. I know its is questionable/debatable, but in the mouse calibers some feel .32 is fine in JHP but you need 380 in FMJ to get pentration.

[MHBushmaster]

Lone Gunman,

You wrote, "The permanent channel diameter is, of course, important, but the wound itself will be no different. "

Yes, the permanent wound cavity is the main source of wounding/trauma. The wound will be different when the bullet has expanded to a larger diameter than its normal diameter. The temporary cavitation wound most likely will not result any form of acceleated compliance from the bad guy, but is can reach and effect organs like the lungs where they can be effected by the temp wound cavitation.

The diameter of these HP wounds are significantly larger than their un-expanded FMJ bullets. Bigger wound channel = bigger wound = faster compliance or exanguation from the bad guy (which is your goal)

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9995/ballisticslarger5465nl1.png

[Gun Slinger]

I dont have time to find a quote on that, but he has said that for a given diameter permanent wound channel, there is no difference in the severity of a wound caused by a JHP versus a FMJ. The permanent channel diameter is, of course, important, but the wound itself will be no different. There is nothing inherently more deadly about a JHP wound channel. Diameter is all that matters. I will try to find the source I am referencing and send it when I get the time.


Not calling you a liar, but I'll have to see it before I'll believe it.

[Gun Slinger]

MHBushmaster-

Nice posts and well documented. This is the kind of informed perspective that I am always looking for.

I am in complete agreement with what you posted above.

Nice job!

[axeman_g]

I appreciate this debate, I do and I have learned many things. I will go look at Federal HST rounds. I appreciate all the information I garnered.

Can I say one thing though. If I must use my weapon, and I shoot and stop a BG and the round overpentrates and goes on to hit someone else... I will gladly spend the rest of my life paying the lawsuits and suffering the consequencese because the BG isn't living anymore. I am still here, he is isn't.

I cant live my life worrying about collateral effects. It would be a tragedy to have an innocent hurt, but between my family and consequences... I will take my family.

[rmuzz]

Frequently, forensic pathologists cannot distinguish the wound track caused by a hollow point bullet (large temporary cavity) from that caused by a solid bullet (very small temporary cavity.) There may be no physical difference in the wounds. If there is no fragmentation, remote damage due to temporary cavitation may be minor even with high velocity rifle projectiles.(19) Even those who have espoused the significance of temporary cavity agree that it is not a factor in handgun wounds:
"In the case of low-velocity missles, e.g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very littleral lateral extension within the surrounding tissues. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in tissue by a pistol bullet is insufficient to cause remote injuries produced by a high velocity rifle bullet.(20)

19) Fackler, M.L., Surinchak, J.S., Malinowski, J.A.; et.al.: "Bullet Fragmentation: A Major Cause of Tissue Disruption', Journal of Trauma 24:35-39, 1984.
20)DiMaio, V.J.M.: Gunshot Wounds,Elsevier Science Publishing Company New York, NY 1987, page 42.

Before you disect this apart and say "of course it doesn't do what a rifle will do" it basically says in the rest of the article that is 1) penetration 2) permanent wound cavity 3) temporary wound cavity and 4) fragmentation. Fragmentation does not happen in handgun ammo that also effectively penetrates and temporary wound cavity is less effective due to lack of fragmentation and the fact that most of the tissue within a human body can take a significant amount of internal "stretch" without hemorrhaging (an exception being the liver.)

Edit - Bushmaster: How long can you survive with one lung? I know the sources in the article I am citing are somewhat dated maybe concerning modern HP design, I'm just participating in friendly debate and regurgitating some info that I've come across. =)

[Kwanger]

Ah, I see there is being a lot made in this thread about over penetration that this topic always brings.

Everyone gets obsessing about shooting and killing people through your target. IMHO, it is irrelevant because in a firefight you tend to do a lot of missing. That being the case, it can be argued that your 'man mangler' JHPs are more of a threat to third parties than FMJ.

I don't carry, period; personally don't think there is enough of a threat in our society that can't be avoided with situational awareness, but thats just me.

That all said, however, for home defense I have a mag full of bonded hollowpoints as I do buy the stopping power argument even though I don't buy the overpenetration one.

[geronimo509]

I dont mean to hijack but................

Axeman, Be careful in New Jersey and HP's. They have very strict laws pertaining to those. I do not know them but I hope you do.

I also heard it was almost impossible to get a CCW (or whatever you want to call it) in jersey. If that is true, then you should only need to use your weapon inside your house. That throws out the innocent bystander worry.

If South Jersey is not in the state of New Jersey, then mods please delete this post.

[Matt-J2]

My 1911 is loaded with FMJ. It's what I have. Doesn't do any bit of good to try and load it with ammo I can't find.

Come to think of it, I've never fired JHP through this gun(RIA GI). Picked it up shortly before we felt the big ammo crunch here, so I'm not sure if it'll even feed the stuff reliably.

[fireman 9731]

carrying FMJs is better than carrying nothing at all...

[Lone_Gunman]

Not calling you a liar, but I'll have to see it before I'll believe it.

No problem. Another poster has already provided documentation of what I was referring too, I assume that is good enough.

[JImbothefiveth]

I would also think that what experts carry is in fact part of your defense if you are sued after a shooting. The experts are the police. They have the most experiance with hollowpoint stopping power, more than even mr. Smith. They use JHPs.

[KBintheSLC]

I only carry FMJ in my tiny 32acp as it does not reliably expand JHP's anyway. I also carry FMJ flat point intermingled with JHP in my 10mm woods gun. I need lots of penetration in the woods.

As for CCW or home defense, I don't carry FMJ in my 9mm. The gelatin tests with FMJ 9mm have shown upwards of 30 inches of penetration. Those types of liabilities are too rich for my peasant blood.

[Deanimator]

I don't carry, period; personally don't think there is enough of a threat in our society that can't be avoided with situational awareness, but thats just me.
So can you tell me in what way the students at Virginia Tech, the six women in the Tinley Park, Illinois Lane Bryant, and the Akron pizza parlor owner were NOT "situationally aware"?
Can you tell me how being "situationally aware" would have made a difference?
What would they have done different?

Of those three incidents, ONE of them featured the criminal assailant as the ONLY fatality.
In only ONE of them was the victim armed.
Care to tell everyone which one that was?

If you can unerringly predict when you're going to need a gun, wouldn't such a level of "situational awareness" be even better employed in the stock market or at the race track?

[countertop]

No one else has pointed it out, but . . .

I was at the gun shop the other day and was
talking to the guy behind the counter.

Avoiding that situation is probably the best advice I could give anyone.

[Oyeboten]

I would like to see terminal Ballistics Test results for .38 Special in plain Round Nose Lead, Lead Semi-Wadutters, full Wadcutters, and Hollow-Base Wadcutters loaded bakwards.


Anyone know of any Gellatin and or other formal tests with these?

In order to compare their behavior with FMJ counterparts?


Without the incidental technicalities resutling of the Hague Convention of 1899 ( was it? ) would anyone have ever cared about or used FMJ ??

[eye5600]

Another real world factor to consider is that unless you are cc'ing in a nudist colony and are likely to be shooting at nekkid folks, most JHP's will often plug with fabric and overpenetrate when shot through heavy clothing.

I did see a report not too long ago where 9mm failed to penetrate a ski jacket with enough oomph to cause a serious wound. It's stuff like that that makes it difficult to make a choice. One guy gets killed by a .22, and the next brushes off a .357.

[-v-]

JHPs for 9mm, 9x18, and .40.

.45 I would feel OK with an FMJ, but would prefer JHPs.

Definitely FMJ's for .380, .32, and .25.

7.62x25 FMJs for their rifle-style tumbling, and the seemingly better efficiency then JHPs.

[Lone_Gunman]

The experts are the police. They have the most experiance with hollowpoint stopping power, more than even mr. Smith. They use JHPs.

It doesnt really matter though. If you shoot a bystander, you are going to get sued, whether its with a JHP or FMJ.

Do you somehow disagree with that?

[KBintheSLC]

I don't carry, period; personally don't think there is enough of a threat in our society that can't be avoided with situational awareness, but thats just me. -Kwanger

Jeeze... you must live in some sort of a bubble or something... maybe another planet like the one on "Cocoon". Here on Earth, bad things happen to good people quite often. Depending on how infested your city is by gun-grabbing socialists, your chances of being a victim can be pretty high.

But thats just here on Earth... I can't speak on behalf of your planet. ;)


...

[Kwanger]

Deanimator,

Going off topic to answer I guess, but as I said, it is just my opinion. If others feel the need to carry, thats fine by me, I was just telling my view.

While you point out real, terrible events, while we are on the topic of casting predictions, I think its fair to say 'what are the chances' of being in that kind of situation. Not too high, methinks. Its just not compelling enough for me to carry at this point. Its not fixed in stone; should society ever get to the point I feel the need to do so, I will.

Sometimes when your number is up, its up. I spent close to three years of my life in Afg and Iraq. Sometimes bad things happen even when you have all the guns in the world. 'Wrong place at the wrong time' can happen to anyone.

I do however get your philosophy of being prepared and all power to you for it, but until the overall picture gets alot worse, I'm still not carrying.

But should I ever do, I'll be carrying hollowpoints.....;)

[axeman_g]

dont worry about the HP issue in NJ... You can own them, you can posses them in your home or at the range or doing transit. But dont get caught with them in a carry weapon. but thats not an issue because I cant carry either here in NJ.

But that is outside the thread.

[Kwanger]

KBintheSLC,

I can certainly assure you I am not in a bubble. I have a lot of wider world experience that at times I wish I didn't have. Fatalistic, maybe, but Im not in a bubble.

But back on topic.....JHP all the way, dammit! That bit I can say ;)

[sm]

Yep.

See post 5 by Old Fuff.

Add, for me and my environments, FMJ deflects less when shooting through glass.

Part of the security, and practiced plans, included one way mirrors, shooting lanes, backstops...etc.

So I and mine carried FMJs and we also used Lead Semi Wadcutters for the same reason. Not LSWC-HP, the LSWC as we investigated and verified loadings.

My "car gun" was a .44 Mag, with full house , hard cast LSWC. It often did home and office duty.

Folks criticize me and mine using slugs indoors too.
Hey, even a slug can deflect, Awerbuck has seen a slug deflect hitting the brim of a hat, on a target.

Do you know what buckshot does with glass?
I do, I grew up with investigate and verify.

I have shot a glass door, just for "interior decorating" reasons, and had all nine pellets go "elsewhere" , and each of the nine pellets, had their own "behavior" with media.


So "non-hollowpoints" is not just for smaller calibers, as I believe in them for .38spl, 9mm, .357, 45ACP.44 Special and .44 Mag as well.

This is only based on "Investigate & Verify" you understand.

[MHBushmaster]

rmuzz,

That article is out-dated, over 20 years ago it was timely, now not at all.

The article is discussing generation 1 Hollow point designs...what you find with Gen 1 Silver Tips for instance, which are primarily where alot of the bad rap about hollow point performance stems from.

Repeat that test with HST or Gold Dot and the results will be polarized opposites.


You wrote: "Edit - Bushmaster: How long can you survive with one lung? "

I dunno, depends on if the lung is removed via a double tap delivering 230gr +P HST's or if the person is under anesthesia and in a sterile environment...My grandma lived almost 7 years with 1 lung, a bad guy with a gunshot wound,,,dunno...not long but probably long enough to keep fighting back...use more ammo;)

[Gun Slinger]

"Frequently, forensic pathologists cannot distinguish the wound track caused by a hollow point bullet (large temporary cavity) from that caused by a solid bullet (very small temporary cavity.) There may be no physical difference in the wounds. If there is no fragmentation, remote damage due to temporary cavitation may be minor even with high velocity rifle projectiles.(19) Even those who have espoused the significance of temporary cavity agree that it is not a factor in handgun wounds:
"In the case of low-velocity missles, e.g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the surrounding tissues. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in tissue by a pistol bullet is insufficient to cause remote injuries produced by a high velocity rifle bullet.(20)

19) Fackler, M.L., Surinchak, J.S., Malinowski, J.A.; et.al.: "Bullet Fragmentation: A Major Cause of Tissue Disruption', Journal of Trauma 24:35-39, 1984.
20)DiMaio, V.J.M.: Gunshot Wounds,Elsevier Science Publishing Company New York, NY 1987, page 42.

Before you disect this apart and say "of course it doesn't do what a rifle will do" it basically says in the rest of the article that is 1) penetration 2) permanent wound cavity 3) temporary wound cavity and 4) fragmentation. Fragmentation does not happen in handgun ammo that also effectively penetrates and temporary wound cavity is less effective due to lack of fragmentation and the fact that most of the tissue within a human body can take a significant amount of internal "stretch" without hemorrhaging (an exception being the liver.)

No need to dissect anything since the performance of low velocity projectiles is addressed above (in red) quite adequately. My initial position that I prefer to carry JHPs (for their increased effectiveness) still stands as initially posted above.

While it is an interesting aside that some forensic pathologists may frequently have a difficult time differentiating between a wound produced by an FMJ and a JHP bullet, I am rather disinclined to become overly concerned with exactly why pistol caliber JHPs work since my primary concern remains only that they (JHPs) work.

As it is, the science of terminal efficacy (the study of "stopping power" as it were) is "nebulous" at best and anyone's guess as to why JHP and FMJ bullets behave and perform the way that they do in the human body is as good as mine.

The fact still remains that JHPs offer a performance advantage over FMJs due at least in some small part to their expansion and no matter how "slight" that margin might be, I'll still happily take what little I can get since it is my desire to tip any factor that I can in my favor when the situation dictates that I'll need to use a handgun to defend me and mine.

[MHBushmaster]

NJ people:

YOU CAN OWN, SHOOT, POSSESS, AND USE HOLLOW POINT AMMO.

It is illegal to use HP ammo in a crime. That is what the law states. Last I checked, it was still illegal to use any gun in a crime, it just happens that their is a harsher sentencing guideline for people that use HP ammo in the commission of a crime. Most States have laws on the books similar to this but pertaining to body armor. Body armor is still legal in those states, it just tacks on extra charges if you use body armor in the commission of a crime.

[.455_Hunter]

I always carry FMJ or LFN/RN in the following calibers if used for two-legged defense:

.22 LR
.22 Mag (in a NAA Mini, all JHPs act like FMJs)
.25 ACP
.32 S&W
.32 S&W Long
.32 ACP
.38 S&W / .380 MK II (not Special)
.45 Auto Rim
.455 Webley

The following may get FMJ of LFN/RN if desired penetration increases (four-legged defense):

9x18 Mak
9x19 Luger
.38 Special
.357 Magnum
.44 Special
.45 ACP
.45 Colt

[Coltman 77]

I'll carry 230 gr fmj in a .45 if need be. It's worked well for more than 100 years in various wars around the globe. :D

[rmuzz]

I just posted those quotes because that documentation was requested...

I even stated that info was dated regarding modern design of HP. I don't claim to be any kind of expert in this area, but I wouldn't mind using the latest and greatest hollow point ammo if it were in a caliber where I knew that could achieve acceptable penetration first and expansion/temporary cavity expansion as bonus.

If your hollow points are going to reach deep and expand fine, I don't think your .45, .40, your 9mm, etc would be better served by using FMJs.

If you have a ccw that is more along the lines of .32, .380, 9x18 something like that I think you should do some research and find out if your chosen HP ammunition penetrates adequately before trusting your safety to it. FMJ might be the right solution depending upon your weapon. They are box-of-truth and similar tests out there to help you make your decisions. Even with modern HP ammo, some of the results with smaller caliber rounds were dismal.

I'm glad you got what I was driving at regarding my "how long can you survive on one lung" comment. Even when mortal wounds are inflicted, given enough determination/motivation/adrenaline/controlled substance a violent attacker wont necessarily be stopped, excluding high CNS hits.

[Deanimator]

I'll carry 230 gr fmj in a .45 if need be. It's worked well for more than 100 years in various wars around the globe.
In a "war" you get extra points for getting two with one shot. In holdup in your local grocery store, you just lose everything you own.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Shouldn't this be in general Handguns?

The answer is no, but I have in the past carried FMJs in the mag (with one HP in the pipe).

[ScareyH22A]

Some people use .223's for home defense. A .223 will go through many walls and even multiple homes. I think overpenetration from a pistol round is the least of our worries. If you're shooting at someone, you want to kill them as quick as possible so use what you think is best to knock them down. For me, it's JHP.

[bratch]

Some people use .223's for home defense. A .223 will go through many walls and even multiple homes

223 penetrates walls less than most pistol rounds.

[Ed Ames]

Parts of this conversation are strange to me.

There is not a single shot you can take with HP that you cannot take with FMJ, and vice versa. That is to say that you cannot count on either round stopping within (or stopping, period) an attacker. Therefore you must be aware of "your target and what lays beyond the target" at all times.

If you are using HP ammo because you think it is safe to shoot at an attacker with bystanders behind them please stay well away from me.

HP ammo is fine and I am not saying a word against it but it should have zero...NO...bearing on when you choose to discharge your firearm. If you think you can shoot HP in places where FMJ would be unacceptable you have deluded yourself. Most SD shots penetrate only air. The difference of penetration between FMJ or HP through air is irrelevant.

[jon_in_wv]

JHPs are more likely to expand and cause a larger, more damaging wound channel than FMJs. Other factors like stopping power, hydraulic effects, etc... that may not be considered as RELIABLE stopping factors are nonetheless factors that can and do have effect. If the JHPs give you an edge, I think its foolish not to take advantage of it. The OLD arguments about JHP reliability in autos or JHPs failure to expand are largely issues of the past with todays quality autos and modern generation JHPs. The NYPD is the only large police organization I've heard of that bought into the FMJ hype and you see they are quickly going back to HPs.

[BHP FAN]

Personally,I home cast lead ''ball'' ammo similar to Lazercast 230 RNL, for my .45,and use 9mm JHP's in my BHP.

[luzyfuerza]

No concensus appears to be emerging from this thread. This is normal.

One thing is absolutely certain, though: if, God forbid, any one of us has to use a handgun in defense of self or innocents, he had better be prepared to carefully and thoroughly explain his choice of ammunition in terms that a non-shooter can quickly grasp. I don't care which you prefer, just be prepared to explain to a jury why you chose what you did.

Here's my personal explanation:

I chose (fill in the blank) hollow-point ammunition to carry in my self-defense gun because:

1) the testing that I have seen shows that a hollow-point bullet design helps reduce the risk of overpenetration, therefore reducing the risk to anyone or anything that may be behind the target,
2) the evidence I have seen indicates that hollow-points which expand tend to incapacitate attackers more quickly, thereby reducing the number of follow-up shots that are necessary to stop an attack,
3) most police departments (including my local department and my state highway patrol) have selected hollow-point ammunition for their officers' firearms, and
4) I have tested this ammunition and know that it fires accurately and reliably in my firearm.

YMMV, just one person's opinion.

[jon_in_wv]

There is not a single shot you can take with HP that you cannot take with FMJ, and vice versa.

That is actually debatable too. At a high angle of incidence a JHP will dig into an penetrate glass/metal/bone/etc.. where a FMJ will be deflected. If firing at a person in a car or behind a barrier the JHP may be able to penetrate where the FMJ can not. A rare instance to be sure but there is in this case a single shot the JHP can make the FMJ can not. Its worth note to me as this same principle applies to striking bone or a skull. It could make a difference then.

[ScareyH22A]

223 penetrates walls less than most pistol rounds.

here's why I used a .223 as an example. http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1_2.htm
but I do know that a .223 will deviate A LOT from tumbling when hitting walls so trajectory and flight path are almost impossible to plan for. So a .223 is VERY dangerous to use in homes. http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12_4.htm

[Just One Shot]

That is actually debatable too. At a high angle of incidence a JHP will dig into an penetrate glass/metal/bone/etc.. where a FMJ will be deflected. If firing at a person in a car or behind a barrier the JHP may be able to penetrate where the FMJ can not. A rare instance to be sure but there is in this case a single shot the JHP can make the FMJ can not. Its worth note to me as this same principle applies to striking bone or a skull. It could make a difference then.

I believe that the opposite is true in many cases.

Depending on the type of material you are shooting through, the hollow point will expand on impact and not penetrate where the FMJ will distort less and continue through the material.

If you get the chance, find an old car and fire into the door panel. Depending on the caliber, the hollow point may penetrate the skin but be stopped by the inner frame and door panel where the FMJ will go all the way through.

[BushyGuy]

its best to carry FMj when your in Bear countrycuz you will need all the penetration you can get i carry Hornady TAP in my 9mm ,they are pretty decent in penetration as well as expansion.

[RDak]

Interesting discussion.

Can I ask a question that is a little off-topic?

I've known for a long time that if you take a hack saw and saw a "cross" on the head of a lead roundnose bullet it will perform somewhat like a hollowpoint. (I've personnally done this and shot into telephone books. The bullet expanded quite alot.)

Is it legal to do that? I ask because .38 Special ammo is hard to get but I can get roundnose cartridges.

Thanks for any opinions.

[MCgunner]

For those who want 100 percent expansion reliability....

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=786

For those who think there is no such thing as over-penetration....


§ 9.05. RECKLESS INJURY OF INNOCENT THIRD PERSON. Even
though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or
using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also
recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the
justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a
prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent
third person.

This is in Texas. Perhaps you live in a jurisdiction that allows you to kill innocent bystanders without retribution so long as it's a "good shoot", but good luck. I know if you hit me, and I survive it, I'll sue you for your house, your car, your money, and your wife if she's nice lookin'. You'll be locked up anyway, won't need her.

[BHP FAN]

This is a good question,one that may directly affect if I get that Forster Hollow Pointer gadget or not.

[MCgunner]

BHP, I don't have the aversion, living in Texas, to the legalities or implications of using handloads for self defense that some folks do, but I do use modern JHP bullets in 'em for defense. LOL I use my cast bullets for range use and in some cases for hunting and field use. I'm seriously thinking of picking up some Hornady Critical Defense, though, eventually, I mean, if I can ever find 'em again. Hard to find ANYTHING in handgun ammunition right now. Thank God for my reloading presses. I'm still SOL when my primer stash runs out. :rolleyes:

[jon_in_wv]

I believe that the opposite is true in many cases.

Depending on the type of material you are shooting through, the hollow point will expand on impact and not penetrate where the FMJ will distort less and continue through the material.

If you get the chance, find an old car and fire into the door panel. Depending on the caliber, the hollow point may penetrate the skin but be stopped by the inner frame and door panel where the FMJ will go all the way through.

What you are talking about is quite a bit different that what I was talking about. Also, I've never seen that FMJs will display that type of superior penetration vs autos. From what I've seen the are pretty much the same. The hollowpoint usually collapses on contact with the steel and it acts just like a FMJ.

[deputy tom]

Quote:

The experts are the police. They have the most experiance with hollowpoint stopping power, more than even mr. Smith. They use JHPs.

A little background is needed here as I was lead to believe Clint Smith was a LEO prior to entering into the private training sector.

See link...
http://www.thunderranchinc.com/director.html


That having been said I usually carry HP ammo in most of my handguns but feel ball is good in some instances and in some but not all calibers.YMMV.tom.:cool:

[shibby]

I take it the word "reckless" was overlooked

[Colton White]

i pack FMJs in my naa .22 magnum if penetration is the key a .22 needs all the help it can get plus 2 holes are better than one

[LibShooter]

On rare occasions when I carry my 1911, its loaded with FMJs. Why? It works 100% of the time with ball ammo, and almost 100% of the time with anything else. It's an old gun that I love more than HP ammo, so I feed it what it likes. And besides, who can find anything else, these days? When I see any .45 its usually FMJ. I grab it and count myself lucky to get it!

The revolver gets JHP anytime it's not pointing at paper.

[WardenWolf]

I carry FMJ's in my car gun (a .45) in case I need to shoot through a car door. Other than that, no.

[Ken Rainey]

RDak, a long time back when I worked in the medical field, I knew a Dr. that carried a J-frame loaded with "cross cut" round nose lead or swc bullets...I offered him some hollowpoints and he shook his head no and smiled...he performed the autopsies at that time, so, when possible, I started assisting with the gunshot victims to gain insight on the wounds....interesting stuff. I don't see how it could be illegal but I'm sure that if a low life lawyer wanted to twist it, he could try to make you look like you were trying to do "extra" damage to the "shootee"... ahh, well, it all would depend on the circumstances (mostly, what part of the country you live in!) - I can't see that you couldn't make an argument in your defense such as no HP ammo available or priced out of range and you were trying to minimize any possible collateral damage by hoping to make it perform like a hollowpoint bullet....like the cops use! ... you get the idea ... IMO, if you feel better with it than without it, use it ... you could also just cut a flat nose on that round nosed bullet...I generally stick to 158 swc loads in .38 special these days and wouldn't feel too bad with just a 148 grain wadcutter...accuracy with adequate penetration, that's the key!

Anyway, I feel just fine with .45 ball or SWC ammo ... and a SWC in .38 or .357 will work as well! Doesn't bother me to use a 147 flat point fmj in 9mm either. Nothing wrong with HP ammo in these calibers but they also can't be counted on to do as advertised all the time...too many variables. Factory HP ammo (especially law enforcement type) is better in the aspect that it usually has better quality control and flash suppressed powder....not as critical in low pressure cartridges such as .38 special and .45 ACP but most 357s, 9s and 40s could use that powder....

The shot's placement with adequate penetration is what makes the difference. To all of these people worried about overpenetration hitting an innocent on the other side of the bad guy, HEY! don't fire if there is a likelyhood of hitting someone else down range - move, get a different angle of fire, fire at the lower torso (pelvic area), take a knee and fire upwards towards the upper chest/head...but, mainly, don't fire unless you're pretty darned confident that you can make the hit! In other words, don't shoot just to be shooting, concentrate and make a hit or do something else...like move to cover, or just plain run...just never give up. Living to "fight another day" by running isn't being a coward unless you're leaving other innocents to be harmed when you could have done something decisive and didn't.

As far as using your own handloaded ammunition, well, how much can "they" say if your shooting a target type load such as a SWC or even just roundnosed lead ... I feel pretty darn good when I have my 200 grain SWCs in my .45 - they are very accurate (main reason for handloading) and I've defended myself against an invading armadillo with excellent results ... and hey, it's a lighter load than factory so there's even less of a chance of the dreaded over penetration! Same goes for my 230 LRN ammo. Now, if your rolling your own and using HP ammo and kicking up the charge behind them to something faster than available for purchase, then I can see how "they" could try to use that against you, even though it wouldn't be right or relevant ... well, whatever the ammo, as we all know, it could be a pain to defend your justified actions one way or the other... just be prepared as best you can and let the good Lord take care of the rest...;)

[BhmBill]

Some people use .223's for home defense. A .223 will go through many walls and even multiple homes. I think overpenetration from a pistol round is the least of our worries. If you're shooting at someone, you want to kill them as quick as possible so use what you think is best to knock them down. For me, it's JHP.

You should not act in self defense to kill, you act to stop the threat. If the perp dies, it happens. If he slips into a coma, so be it. If you shoot his ankles out, you've stopped him.

Careful, sir.

If you shoot a guy who is attacking you and he goes down and is curled up in a ball coughing up blood, i'd say you've effectively stopped the threat, no more shots are necessary and could land you in prison for a very long time if you intend to kill the threat, not just neutralize it.

I think many people would agree with me.

[frankd4]

9mm 147gr JHP at 750fps subsonic yes, but I can do triple taps with out wondering where the hec the rounds are going to stop.

[jwPhotographer]

I'm a big believer in having spare mags squirreled away here and there. I have a spare in the console of my truck, one in the bedside table, one in a kitchen drawer, etc.

The one in the gun and the one in the truck console are JHP. Everything else is ball. So...if I manage to get to a 2nd mag and I'm not near my truck, then chances are I'll be carrying FMJ's at that time.

As a general rule though? No, I don't think it's a good idea to carry FMJ for defense...



<opinion>

1. If you're carrying to be able to "stop" a threat, a JHP is going to stop better than a FMJ. Period, the end, no discussion. Easy now....am I saying a FMJ won't stop a threat? NO - I didn't say that. However, a JHP has a higher likelihood of stopping a threat with fewer shots than the same shot(s) with FMJ. That's a statistical fact.

Also - fwiw - I do not carry to kill. I carry to stop. I'd really rather not ever kill anyone - that would suck, and would likely ruin my life and the lives of many others.

Most gunshot victims don't die from trauma - they die from blood loss. That's a statistical fact. If there's even a chance that my JHP, which is going to enter and stop, would cause even slightly less blood loss than a FMJ that will zing straight through and make two holes, thereby causing even a little less blood loss - I'll go with that. IF I ever have to stop a threat, it probably won't - but it could make the difference between a stopped, but alive threat - and a dead one.

2. Aside from stopping power, and the potential for (possibly) less blood loss - No, I'd rather not have the round go through the bad guy, through the car door behind him, through the car behind that, and through the granny who hit the deck behind that.

</opinion>

[crebralfix]

I'll cheerfully justify shooting a guy with a sawed off shotgun, trying to rob me. I CAN'T justify shooting through that robber and killing a toddler, out of sight, twenty feet away. There's no such thing as a "justifiable accidental shooting". It's almost certain I wouldn't go to jail. It's almost equally certain that I'd be sued and lose.

And this points out the primary problem with our civil court system: you were not the aggressor. The other guy was and he would not have been shot if he didn't initiate a crime.

[SGTB802]

I have got to put my 2 cents in I am a CCW Carry Instructor. I carry only Hollowpoints!!!!!! 1 is the chance of overpenitration. 2 what does 95 percent of police carry.3 Physics if a bullet opens even a little does it or does it not transfer more energy. People are worried about shooting thru a car dont need to be shooting. now here is devils advocate if you shoot a person with a FMJ he can sue the crap out of you. u say how is that let me explain the fmj is required by nato and the design is to wound where it takes more soldiers to remove the person A good defense attourney for the scum bag that tried to kill you that u wounded with the fmj is going to say you was not worried with self defense and you were tring to mane my client and as liberal as some are he might get a conviction and you can pay for the rest of your life if you shoot hollowpoints you have several defences 1 you are shooting the same ammo the police is using 2 better chance of stopping the threat 3 less likely to overpenetrate. now for the smaller callibers the average human torso is 12 inches thick a 32 acp will penitrate 8 inches so u transfer that energy in the body I carry a colt commander most of the time but i have a colt govt 380 i carry a lot it is loaded with the hornady critical defence and i know that if i need it i dont have to worry as much about the bullett coming out. I you have a lot of money and dont mind paying them for the rest of their life carry FMJ if u are like me and is a poor old country boy stick with a good quality FACTORY LOADED hollow point

CCW Instructor cert# 06-469

[RockyMtnTactical]

FMJ is generally a bad choice unless it is all you got. It will still do the job much of the time, but I like any edge I can get.

[Zerodefect]

Also, most FMJ ammo is made for target practice. Cheaply made, and thrown together sloppily. More attention to detail seems to be made towards the good HP ammo.

I'm no expert but we've all seen the proof. For example: Winchester White Box from Walmart is hardly defensive ammo. I get plenty of fail to feeds with this ammo in almost all my guns.

Winchester Ranger T has worked flawlessly in the pistols I use for carry. So has Speer Lawman, Rem Goldensabre, and only a couple fails to feed in Fed Hydrashock (old recoil spring/mag spring probally).

Seems to me the HP stuff seems to be more reliable in my limited testing. My 1911 feeds HP's fine.

[amd6547]

I have no problem carrying FMJ in my P64 9mm makarov-chambered pistol.
I don't know what kind of pistols you are having failures to feed with Win white box 9mm...I shoot it in a Beretta 92FS, a Sig P6, and have shot it in a Walther P1 and a UZI carbine. It has worked 100% in all of them.

[Seven For Sure]

These are the only non-HP I would carry for SD against humans (click on the pic to see the profile of the bullet better):

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210

They would make a big hole going in at least, most likely two big holes.

[Zerodefect]

I've had bad luck with WWB, Blazer, and Remington FMJ in a Ruger P95, Kimber CDP, Ketec P11.

They've never failed with HP ammo. And my Glock23 (primary ccw piece) eats anything.

[rscalzo]

FMJ ammo is made for target practice. Cheaply made, and thrown together sloppily

I have no idea where you came up with that but every major manufacturer has quality FMJ available.

[JSmith]

Using 230gr hardball in a .45 is lunacy.

Using 230gr hardball in a .45 is just what that old lunatic John Browning intended.

Right now, I have a box of Hydrashocks for SD. Not sure if I'd rather have those, or the American Eagle FMJ.

It appears that Hornady doesn't offer "Critical Defense" in .45ACP - anyway, I can't find it on their website.

[RDak]

Ken: Thanks for the info. on cutting a "cross" into a .38 Special roundnose lead bullet.

Btw, I learned that "adjustment" from an Army Ranger who fought in Vietnam many decades ago.

He was hesitant to advise as to legality. He didn't know one way or the other but he seemed to act like it might not be kosher.

[punkndisorderly]

Using 230gr hardball in a .45 is just what that old lunatic John Browning intended.


And the Model T is just what Henry Ford intended. Technology advances for a reason: we figure out better, more efficient ways of doing things.

The goal is to get as much energy transferred as possible from the bullet to the intended targets vitals.
Any energy left over after penetrating a target is wasted energy.

A secondary goal is to minimize the threat to bystanders. FMJ's are more likely to go entirely through the target and wound bystanders or damage property. FMJ's are also more likely to ricochet upon a miss.

[Gun Slinger]

I have got to put my 2 cents in I am a CCW Carry Instructor. I carry only Hollowpoints!!!!!! 1 is the chance of overpenitration. 2 what does 95 percent of police carry.3 Physics if a bullet opens even a little does it or does it not transfer more energy. People are worried about shooting thru a car dont need to be shooting. now here is devils advocate if you shoot a person with a FMJ he can sue the crap out of you. u say how is that let me explain the fmj is required by nato and the design is to wound where it takes more soldiers to remove the person A good defense attourney for the scum bag that tried to kill you that u wounded with the fmj is going to say you was not worried with self defense and you were tring to mane my client and as liberal as some are he might get a conviction and you can pay for the rest of your life if you shoot hollowpoints you have several defences 1 you are shooting the same ammo the police is using 2 better chance of stopping the threat 3 less likely to overpenetrate. now for the smaller callibers the average human torso is 12 inches thick a 32 acp will penitrate 8 inches so u transfer that energy in the body I carry a colt commander most of the time but i have a colt govt 380 i carry a lot it is loaded with the hornady critical defence and i know that if i need it i dont have to worry as much about the bullett coming out. I you have a lot of money and dont mind paying them for the rest of their life carry FMJ if u are like me and is a poor old country boy stick with a good quality FACTORY LOADED hollow point

Kinda hard to make any sense of this due to "run-on" sentences (marked in red, blue and green) and almost non-existent punctuation.

Paragraphs are your friend.

[amd6547]

Depending on the situation, I would use FMJ for SD...9mm, 9mm Mak, 45, 7.62x25 Tokarev, Hell, even 55gn 5.56mm.
I have carried them all, and would again.
Those who are concerned about overpenetration should be even more worried about misses. Personally, I like the ability to defeat cover.

[CDW4ME]

From the book Stopping Power by Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow:
Solid point gelatin penetration tests:
45 acp 185 FMJ-FP 27.9''
9mm 115 FMJ 24.5''
9mm 147 FMJ 28.7''
45 acp 230 FMJ 30.5''
All of those would likely exit a human target with enough energy to kill a bystander.

By contrast, most hollow points go about 10-15''

[bang_bang]

I remember reading something along the lines of:

"A 9mm HP might expand, but a .45 FMJ isn't going to shrink."

.45 ACP FMJ's are in my handguns for that reason.

[mljdeckard]

Using .230 gr .45 ACP, I think the difference is so subtle as to make no difference at all in 90% of shootings. You're using a bullet the same weight, moving at the same velocity. The effects from JHP ammo are slight enhancements. (I can't say I feel the same way about 9mm hardball vs 9mm JHP.)

I carry HSTs, but if, for some bizarre hypothetical reason, I had to use FMJ defensively, I wouldn't change a thing. Not shot placement, not whether or not the area behind the target is clear. Those things are the same regardless. I would not freeze with terror, thinking; "Oh NO!! I've been caught without my magical JHP ammo! I might as well not shoot this bad guy at all!!" No. FMJ vs JHP is to me, a small variation in the overall strategy of personal defense. I use JHP ammo because if you are going to use deadly force, you must use the philosophy that every advantage you can give yourself to save your life helps, or why bother doing it at all?

1911s shooting 230 gr hardball ammo have saved more soldiers' lives than any other handgun I can think of.

[Magnum_Maniac]

Based on what I've read about FMJ ammo, the bullets overpenetrate and they tend to deflect. Some folks think that the size of the .45 bullet is enough to provide "knock down," but I don't think I'd carry 'em. They're cheap, though, and that appeals to some people. I don't know why they're still made except for the military.

Speakin' of the military, it uses FMJ in both .45 and 9mm. If you HAVE to use one or the other, the .45 is probably better, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with either or.

[22LRFan]

I use FMJ's in my Kel-Tec P32. I think .32 ACP hollowpoints either have trouble expanding reliably or if they do, not penetrating enough. Although for 9mm I rely on hollowpoints.

[Ken Rainey]

CDW4ME, gelatin doesn't wear varying thicknesses/types of clothes or have bones....

The gelatin is good for a standardized testing medium but does not/cannot take into account different sized people or what they may have on...

........................................................................................................

You can never tell what type or types of things that your defensive round may have to go thru to get to something vital in the bad guy to stop the attack....45 FMJ is about as good as it gets for all things considered. Nothing wrong with a HP except that it cannot be counted on to expand in all situations and, as was said, a .45 doesn't shrink.

I'd also feel just as confident using a 180 FMJ in .40 or a 147 FMJ in 9mm, or even a 158 SWC in .38 as I would any of those with HP ammo...why, because whether or not the ammo expands will have little impact on it's stopping capability compared to where it goes - shot placement with adequate penetration is what makes a difference...larger bullets that are able to break or shatter bone helps too!

Not saying HP ammo isn't good to have, a premium manufactured round of ammo suppose to have better quality control and powders and sealants than the lower cost line of "target" ammo...but most manufacturers also produce a premium FMJ round as well...but probably sell few of them due to the cost being pretty much the same as the "defensive" line of ammunition - that's advertised to be so protective and efficient...

Do I feel confident using Winchester Ranger T (or fill in the blank with whatever hp ammo has proven functionable and accurate in my pistol) ammunition?? Yep, but I'm just as confident in the "target" ammunition that I've loaded for myself! .... Do I count on the Ranger (or whatever) ammo to expand to be effective?? Nope, the shot placement with enough penetration will determine that. Expansion is a welcomed bonus but cannot be counted on.

Overpenetration of standard .45 FMJ ammunition is way overblown and is largely just thought to be more of a problem than it actually is .. largely due to smaller FMJs in faster calibers (115 and 124 9mm mostly) having been seen more often to be excessively penetrative.....not that they always are, but that it has been observed more...it will always depend on factors that you can never forsee whether or not a FMJ of handgun caliber will or won't penetrate on a solid shot....HP ammo has been known to "overpenetrate" as well ... you cannot believe that since your bullet has a hollow point that it will expand perfectly and magically stop just shy of exiting whatever size of bad guy that you just shot - that would be great, but in the real world, there is no absolutes...you can get "probablilities" or "maybes" with differently designed ammo in different weights and speeds but no absolutes are out there...

Yep, all things considered as much as they can be, a standard .45 FMJ is just about as "ideal" as can be expected...

Know your field of fire as best you can, shoot straight and hope for the best...;)

[BlackHand1917]

I am old fashoned enough to believe that hollowpoints are functionally less reliable in auto pistols than FMJ. I don't want a jam, I want the handgun to go boom and something to come out of the barrel.

[Ed Ames]

I'm old fashioned enough to believe that a bullet should be a lump of lead. Jackets on bullets? What's next, bolos and boots?

;)

[JSmith]

And the Model T is just what Henry Ford intended. Technology advances for a reason: we figure out better, more efficient ways of doing things.

Sometimes.

But the 1911 platform was designed to reliably feed the .45ACP FMJ bullet.

The failure-to-feed issues that people frequently have are often the result of using ammunition the pistol wasn't designed for.

We may figure out better more efficient ways of doing things but that doesn't necessarily mean we're smarter than the man who designed the pistol.

[SuperFlanker]

Getting hit with a .45 ACP FMJ isn't exactly a picnic. Hit a bone and you can play pinball on your target.

[Yo2slick]

now here is devils advocate if you shoot a person with a FMJ he can sue the crap out of you. u say how is that let me explain the fmj is required by nato and the design is to wound where it takes more soldiers to remove the person A good defense attourney for the scum bag that tried to kill you that u wounded with the fmj is going to say you was not worried with self defense and you were tring to mane my client and as liberal as some are he might get a conviction and you can pay for the rest of your life if you shoot hollowpoints you have several defences 1 you are shooting the same ammo the police is using 2 better chance of stopping the threat 3 less likely to overpenetrate.

First off, there wont be an attorney for the scumbag that tried to kill me because if I have to shoot in self defense I WILL kill the scumbag, dead scumbags cant come back to bite you in the rear. That is exactly what is taught here in CCW classes.

I miss the days of being able to find HP ammo in 50 round boxes. Now all I can find is the 20 round boxes for 1.50 a round. I want to shoot what I plan on using for self defense and at 25 dollars for 20 rounds that isnt gonna happen.

I am not worried about overpenetration for 2 reasons. #1 I will be focused on eliminating the threat(s) and not getting dead. #2 As hard as I am going to try I dont believe that every shot will hit the BG. If anyone believes that every shot they take in a SD situation will hit its mark they need to wake up and smell the coffee.

[Dismantler]

I carry +p hollow points in my Model 10. I have FMJ's set aside for an LA Riot type of situation...though I am probably not going to be in one of those in New Hampshire. :p

Still, I can only seem to get FMJ at a reasonable price right now, so I load with JHP's and have the ball as reserve ammo.

[rbernie]

Sorry for the drift, but this needs fixin': if I have to shoot in self defense I WILL kill the scumbag, dead scumbags cant come back to bite you in the rear. That is exactly what is taught here in CCW classes. That's not the law in any state in the Union, and any CHL/CCW class that teachs such a thing is NOT teaching the law. It pays to know the actual law in your state. Trying to KILL someone, as opposed to stopping a threat, is likely to garner you criminal and civil liabilities you'd not want to know.

[Eightball]

I have carried FMJs in my 1911, but I only recently got my CCW permit and hardball was the only ammo I knew for certain to feed reliably in the thing, and it was the only firearm for which I had a holster/could carry/etc. I'm working on finding a nice, reliable JHP load for it, but when I was carrying it with FMJs, I just kept in the back of my head that I'd have to be extra careful with my shots......but in my mind, it's better to have something than nothing, and the alternative to the FMJs at the time was nothing.

[jdub42]

In my .357 sig.

[Yo2slick]

That's not the law in any state in the Union, and any CHL/CCW class that teachs such a thing is NOT teaching the law.

Sorry sir, you are wrong. The law here is that I dont have to back down or run away. I have the right to use lethal force as a first option if I am in fear for my life. Please no smart ass responses as you know what I am talking about when I say in fear for my life. That is the law here so instead of spouting off you should maybe do some research. I am also not saying that I would end the threat then walk up and shoot the guy for the killshot. I am simply saying that if I have to shoot in self defense I will shoot to kill. The law doesnt say I have to shoot to injure.

[cyclopsshooter]

1911, 230g fmj plinker ammo for home defense- dont want lawyers saying i was laying in wait!

[Kind of Blued]

I carry one, the top round in my spare mag, and the rest are JHPs.

[texas bulldog]

i do in .380 due to their fairly poor penetration. even in FMJ, it's unlikely they will overpenetrate, and i want to be sure they'll go deep enough to reach vital organs.

in all other calibers, i use JHP always.

to those who are carrying FMJ for reliability reasons...i gotta say that if your gun won't reliably feed HPs, then you probably ought to go with a different gun. any modern handgun really should be able to use HPs. even my 1911 handled them fine from the very start. if it didn't, i would've contacted the factory or traded it in on something that would do the job. just an opinion, of course, and we all know what they say about opinions...

[rhoggman]

I think much of this is hogwash. Did not read all 6 pages. There are studies out there stating how much lead actually ends up on target when police have to shoot. Over 80% of shots taken completely miss their intended targets, so to say that they are worried about over penetration for the 20% of shots that actually hit flesh doesn't make much sense.

I would argue that the benefit to using HP ammo in handguns has much more to do with the inflicted wound the ammo causes, and its ability to overcome the human mind, and body than does a typical FMJ round (from a pistol). A larger wound cavity has a better chance of debilitating a human being quicker, especially when a shot is actually well placed.

That being said.... FMJ will kill you just as dead as any other bullet. It may or may not take longer for you to bleed out.

One last thought... more often than not people who "go down" right after being shot with a pistol are most likely overcome by their own psyche, and do not immediately go down for a physiological reason. This is not really as true with rifle calibers due to the entirely different impact they have on the body.

Conclusion: I carry just about anything that works in semi-auto pistol with 10+ rounds. In .380 ACP or above if I shoot you a few times you are probably going to GTFOOD at the very least, and will most likely die if I shoot you more than that. Do I have HP/ Self Defense ammo? Sure why not. Do I need it? Probably better of with a spare mag than a box of $40 rounds, half full on your dresser.

[rhoggman]

Does anyone know which weapon kills the most police officers in the USA?

22LR

I have learned that if you have to shoot.... keep shooting until the target stops advancing. FMJ or JHP or whatever you have just keep pulling the trigger. Usually continuing to pull the trigger increases your effectiveness:)