[Tamara]

Guy comes into the shop today.

"I need a magazine for a .40 caliber Smith & Wesson."
"Double stack or single stack?"
"It looks like this one." (Holding up mag for double stack S&W .40)
"Okay, here... Let me warn you, though, Smith wants blood money for their factory mags."
"That's okay, I just bought the gun off a friend, and I need an extra magazine for... Wait, this one only holds ten, mine uses an eleven round magazine."
"Right, this is a new magazine, made after 1994."
"What does that have to do with it?"
_Insert lengthy explanation here._
"WHAT?!?! That is the dumbest law I ever heard of! One extra round is illegal?"
"Not just 'illegal', sir, it's a major federal felony."
"That is pure-t retarded!"
"Write your congressman, sir." :uhoh:

[MPFreeman]

Quick suggestion:

Wear a football helmet when you meet these people. The helmet protects your grey matter while you bang your head into the wall.

[Tamara]

Another fun one is to hold up a .223 cartridge next to an AR and a .30-'06 round next to a 7400 and explain that the little bullet is shot out of the deadly assault weapon and the big one comes out of the friendly hunting rifle, and they both shoot as fast as you pull the trigger...

"Gosh, what a dumb law!"
"Exactly."

[Standing Wolf]

<sarcasm> Well, yeah, but that eleventh round could kill an innocent little child. </sarcasm>

[Mike Irwin]

New people getting into the sport all the time.

They have to learn, and are hopefully are taught by someone who knows what he's about as a teacher.

[Tamara]

The interesting thing about the guy in the first example is that he's not a novice shooter. He had a couple of Smith revolvers, a shotgun, and a deer rifle. He's probably been shooting as long as I've been alive. He just wasn't a politically aware shooter... Until the AWB touched a corner of his world, that is.

[Monkeyleg]

Tamara, we had some sort of parallel universe experience today. Guy comes into the shop for his first gun, wants to try out a Glock with a "14 round magazine." Owner tells him that it's ten, unless you're Blessed.

Same dumbfounded look.

Thank you, Peter Jennings.

[MPFreeman]

Your right Mike. We need to be self controlled and steady when explaining the insanity of system. It does become difficult remaining sane while explaining the insane. Especially when us shooters are treated like criminals and no-good-niks by an honorable and constitutional governmental agency.

[DorGunR]

Tamara Please forgive but my memory just ain't what it used to be...
Are all my 13 round mags for my Browning HP still legal???:confused:

[sm]

...He's probably been shooting as long as I've been alive. He just wasn't a politically aware shooter... Until the AWB touched a corner of his world, that is.

Yep.
Sad to say most people are apathetic, until they are personally touched.
Heck, I've fired tens of thousands of shotshells, "I'm a <insert type of clay game> shooter, or I hunt <insert type of game> hunter, that political stuff don't bother me...I shoot a <insert brand> of semi -auto shot gun.
So they snub the other shooters and their type of firearms. Stay abreast, vote, write congress critters...hell it's only an 1100 used on Sunday's to shoot clay birds...

[Mike Irwin]

"Are all my 13 round mags for my Browning HP still legal???"

As long as they were made before the magazine capacity limitation law, yes.

[LawDog]

*snort*

I was down in DFW with my brother and a friend on Monday, gun-store-crawling (it's like pub-crawling, only you don't wind up hungover when you're done...)

Anyhoo, in one of the gun-shops a Good Old Boy hunting-type coon-fingers a Beretta shotgun for a while, then plonks his money on the counter.

Dealer gets done with the paperwork, then tells him that he's going to have to wait to pick up the scattergun because the NICS clearance hasn't come back.

Much spluttering, customer demands to know how long he's going to have to wait. Dealer says probably three working days.

The sheer indignation and outrage involved in the subsequent melt-down just flat warms the cockles of my heart.

Yeah, they do want to confiscate your over/under.

Welcome to the party, pal.

LawDog

[Tamara]

As long as they were made prior to 9/94, they are fine according to federal law.

I haven't a clue what kind of regulations your state may have.


*Ring, ring!*
"Good afternoon, Randy's Guns & Knives."
"Yes, we just moved here from [insert some state]; could you tell us how we go about registering our guns here?"
"You can't."
"What do you mean?"
"Ma'am, here in Tennessee there is no provision for registering your guns."
"Really? Huh... Thanks!"
"Have a nice day, ma'am, and welcome to Tennessee." :cool:

[DorGunR]

Thanks Mike and Tamara.........since I was carrying this Pistol in Nam in 1966, I believe I made it under the deadline of '94.;)

[sm]

... gun-store-crawling (it's like pub-crawling, only you don't wind up hungover when you're done...)
Sorry for OT, however, "Mr Dawg" sir...I had to call attention to another classic line. :)

Yep the O/U people never did warm up to the self shuckers...second class shooters...good- get 'em off the range...they'll never come for my Citori...;)

[natedog]

I've converted so many friends from anit or fence sitters into shooters. First I ask them about the AWB, most say
"Why would anyone need an AK-47?"
Then I show them my Mini-14 and ask them,
" Do you think this is an assault rifle?"
"No of course not."
"Did you know that if i put a vetical grip on it it would become an "assault rifle by California law?"
"Really? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard! Like a change of grips is going to make a rifle more or less dangerous..."
"Also, the Federal penalty for having an 11 round magazine made after 1994 is greater than the penalty for stealing and in some forms of murder?"
(This is where the jaw hits the floor)

[Bill Hook]

since I was carrying this Pistol in Nam in 1966, I believe I made it under the deadline of '94.

That has nothing to do with the mags, unless you've had all of them since '66 too.

Conversely, your BHP could've been made yesterday, so long as the mags were pre-9/94

[twoblink]

Tamara,

I've tried explaining the law to my girlfriend, in English. She looked confused... I tried in Chinese.. In case you wondered... IT SOUNDS AS DUMB IN CHINESE AS IT DOES IN ENGLISH..

[BigG]

When I was the first kid on the block with my new SIG P229 in 357 I quickly learned that two extra rounds cost about 80 bucks. :eek: There are some factory hicap mags for SIG P229s that were made for 40 S&W - same mag. Don't think the 357 was released prior to the 94 ban so all 10 shot mags. :barf:

[Mute]

This is exactly why we have the gun control laws that we do. Most people are absolutely fricking clueless as to what the legislature have been and continue to do in their names.

[El Tejon]

Hmmm, what would Tio Tejon say???:confused:

Oh, yeah, just because one owns a firearm does not mean that one is competent with firearms or knowledgable of firearms. Or he'd say gun shoppes are magnets for the very zealous, but ignorant.

Teach them well, Tamara. :cool:

[semf]

Another fun one is to hold up a .223 cartridge next to an AR and a .30-'06 round next to a 7400 and explain that the little bullet is shot out of the deadly assault weapon and the big one comes out of the friendly hunting rifle, and they both shoot as fast as you pull the trigger...

I saw a report many years ago on TV. that compared a .223 to a 7mm Mag. They shot a melon with the .223 and it put a nice size hole in a melon and broke it up pretty good. Then they used the 7mm and the melon disappeared. I believe it was John Stosel demonstrating the stupidity of the proposed gun laws. But I think he was saying that these hunting rifles should be banned too.

[mtnbkr]

gun-store-crawling (it's like pub-crawling, only you don't wind up hungover when you're done...)

But you're just as broke. :D

I thought I was the only person to do this. I've been known to drag my poor wife to 3-4 gunshops in the NoVa area when we have a free Saturday. Every time we go to Roanoke to visit the parents, I have to make my pilgrimage to Bryansteens. :D

Chris

[Vic303]

gun-store-crawling (it's like pub-crawling, only you don't wind up hungover when you're done...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



But you're just as broke.
Nah! If you do it right, you're broker!

[AJ Dual]

I saw a report many years ago on TV. that compared a .223 to a 7mm Mag. They shot a melon with the .223 and it put a nice size hole in a melon and broke it up pretty good. Then they used the 7mm and the melon disappeared. I believe it was John Stosel demonstrating the stupidity of the proposed gun laws. But I think he was saying that these hunting rifles should be banned too.

I think John Stossel is a libertarian, big "L" or little "l". If anything ABC edited his piece to make it seem like it was the AWB didn't do enough, instead of just being stupid.

Of course, he could be a cafeteria libertarian, I don't know.

[Bill Hook]

believe it was John Stosel demonstrating the stupidity of the proposed gun laws. But I think he was saying that these hunting rifles should be banned too.

Unless the demo was duplicated, I think it was Peter Jennings/ABC who showed this. I'm thinking it was 4-5 years ago.

[Pilgrim]

During the 1992 Los Angeles riot, following the acquittal of the four LAPD officers in state court for thumping Rodney King, a sizable number of citizens were shocked and outraged that they couldn't buy their handguns and take them home the same day. The waiting period in California then was fifteen days.

Since then the waiting period was reduced to ten days, but applies to all firearms, not just handguns. The next riot should prove interesting.

Pilgrim

[BHPshooter]

Yes, it is simply amazing how in-the-clouds the average Joe is when it comes to knowing about gun laws. And for the most part, they don't care... until it's causing THEM an inconvenience.

One of my friends is pro-gun, but of course, that doesn't make him any more knowledgeable about gun laws. Every time we go shooting or talk guns, he asks me more questions about "can you do this?"

He gets pretty flabberghasted when I start telling him what is legal and what is not.

Another of my gunny friends has a post-ban AK and has a pre-ban folding stock for it. He told him, "If I were to put this on this gun, I'm *instantly* a felon."

:cuss:
Wes

[feedthehogs]

My instructor cards are in a number of local gun shops and I get calls all the time from people who move here wanting to know how to register their firearms.

No registration needed here in Florida. Enjoy your freedoms and by the way the local 2nd amendment group meets...........
Help us keep it that way.

[greyhound]

I just had a thought that is either a revelation or extraordinarily stupid.

Say we have X number of true "gun nuts" in the US. Once you are a certfiable "gun nut" you will never change.

But, more and more people become "gun nuts" when older (like me), while some always are since childhood.

If true "GNs" never change, and more and more folks become "GNs", the number of "GNs" is always going up, right? Thats good for 2A!

Disclaimer: I never was very good at math, so feel free to point out the dumb leap of faith here, if necessary.:rolleyes:

[pax]

Tamara,

I wish I could send my husband to shop at your gun shop. He's not really a shooter, but we're getting closer.

Today he voluntarily stopped off at a gun store on his way to work. He's looking for a handgun of his very own (he's got a cute little NAA mini already, but it doesn't count, and he's not the one who purchased it). Anyway, he called me up shortly after walking out of the store and said, "I think I found the gun I want."

I said, "Which one's that?"

He said, "A Springfield Armory XD something? I wrote it down... Anyway, it fit my hand really well." I made some generally encouraging noises, and he continued, "And the guy behind the counter said I could get some 15-round mags for it from the factory."

I said, "Did you tell him you're a cop or something?"

He said, "No, why?"

*sigh*

pax

America is freer today than it has been in any time in the history of human freedom. -- Attorney General John Ashcroft, September 25, 2003

[Mark Tyson]

This ignorance isn't surprising. Everyone has limited time, and modern life is so busy. I'm sure we're all ignorant about a lot of important things.

[griz]

A lot of people, shooters included, do not pay any attention to the real affect of a law. They listen to the news reader / anchor person say that "the assult weapons ban will keep machine guns off the street", and they believe it. When it affects them personally they are actually surprised.

One of my friends was telling me how dangerous it was to have all the guns I do. I asked him if they were dangerous individually since I only shoot one at a time? He replied yes. I knew he owned a revolver and asked him why he didn't get rid of it if it was dangerous. He said he had never looked at it that way before.

[Moparmike]

Greyhound, even Gun Nuts die. That is only where your math is flawed that I can see.

The only trouble is, how many of those Gun Nuts are politically active enough to keep what little of the 2A we have.

[natedog]

Gun nuts don't die...they just sorta fade away...

[BTR]

Some springfield armory XDs come with a coupon for the purchase of pre-ban 15 rounders (converted from beretta aftermarkets).

[TheLastBoyScout]

Pax, he's not that far wrong. I heard from several people on FFF and AR15.com that if you buy the (factory 10-round) .40 cal mags and bend the feedlips to look like the ones on a XD-9 mag, then you have a reliable, legal 15 or 16 round XD-9 mag (If you want to prove this, you just have to be sure it still functions in an XD-40 with .40 cal rounds).

YMMV of course.

[pax]

:o

Hmm.

Thanks, guys.

pax

[gburner]

I'm confused.....

I recently purchased a CZ 75B NIB that came with a 16 round magazine as well as a 10 round magazine. Are you telling me that I am now a federal felon for possession of this hi-cap mag?????? ***:what:

[Tamara]

Is the magazine stamped "FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT/MILITARY USE ONLY", "NOT FOR US SALE", or with a date after 9/94?

If not, then you most likely have a legal, pre-ban magazine.

[gburner]

No markings on the mag at all, save for the counter numbers next to the holes.....thanks Tam. Glad I won't have to be doing time with Martha Stewart.

[willyjixx]

what about assembling mags tamara?

i found a site that sells just the magazine shell an you can buy hi-caps an you have to get the springs an followers seperate. can you put those together for a hi-cap legally?

or once again does it depend on the date of manufacture of the shell?

[Don Gwinn]

Nope, that would be "manufacturing" a magazine that holds more than ten rounds after '94. That's a no-no unless you're a manufacturer and it's for use by the noble class--police, military, Food and Drug Administration agents, etc.

I'm not as current as I should be on the law, but it surprises me that the use of a post-ban .40 mag to hold more than ten rounds of 9mm is legal. I would expect BATF to close such a "loophole" by fiat. Has this been tested? After all, once you do that and use the mag, it is a magazine holding more than ten rounds, manufactured after 1994, and used by someone other than law enforcement or the military. I would think those three things would qualify this as a felony. Be careful, folks!

I think the Beretta mag story is more likely. The HS2000/XD was designed for modified Beretta mags, and Beretta pre-bans are relatively plentiful and inexpensive compared to some others.

[Giant]

Quote:
"Yeah, they do want to confiscate your over/under.

Welcome to the party, pal.

LawDog"

Mr. LawDog you done said what needed to be said on the matter. Thank you!

Anytime we drag a duck hunter or other kind of hunter kicking and screaming into the ranks of defenders of The Second Amendment we are one step closer to winning the war agains the anti gunners. We indeed are in a war, but there is no hostile shooting happening - well maybe a few hostile goblins but I don't think those ones count or can even count.

Giant

I hunt therefore I am... A person can not have too many guns nor too much ammunition.

Mister how come you got so much ammunition? You expecting a war or something? Well sonny, don't know if there will be a war or something else. I think a person should be prepared for what could happen instead of not being prepared when something does happen an not a gun or ammunition for it anywhere around. Let's go get some more guns and ammo!

[BigG]

Yes, Tamara, but... I have to point out, in my own defense, that prior to the mid-nineties, all my automatic pistols had seven shot mags, so ten rounds sounded like an upgrade. :o

[TallPine]

So where is the burden of proof ...?

On the citizen to prove the mag was "pre-ban" ?

Or on the govt to prove the mag is not "pre-ban" ?


What a ridiculous law to even try to enforce! :rolleyes:

[CZ-100]

That is NOT really a BAD thing. He was UN-Informed and with a Little Patients on your part and knowledge, He could leave Informed and on our side. :D

[BrokenPaw]

So where is the burden of proof ...? On the citizen to prove the mag was "pre-ban" ? Or on the govt to prove the mag is not "pre-ban" ? If I recall correctly, the burden of proof is on the Government. Mags that are manufactured after the ban are required to be stamped as Law Enforcement Only, and all mags that are not so stamped are deemed to be pre-ban. I don't have a cite, of course, and it really actually depends on how badly your friendly neighbourhood ATF agent wants to screw you.

On another note: Mister LawDog...your heart has muscles, I'm sure, but cockles? And are they alive, alive-o?

-BP

[TheLastBoyScout]

The way I heard it, the .40 cal trick is legal under the same conditions that made those AR-10 (converted from M-14) magazines legal, the main restriction being that the mag must function in the weapon it was originally designed for after you are done modifying it... But this is second hand internet advice, and worth what you pay for it.


PS: for the benefit of Agent Shmuckatelli or any of his coworkers, I ended up not buying an XD, and probably never will.

[willyjixx]

PS: for the benefit of Agent Shmuckatelli or any of his coworkers, I ended up not buying an XD, and probably never will.

:D Good save!

[gunsmith]

And he wasn't to upset about AWB cause he didn't want an AK.
So I reminded him that the next new pistol he bought he can only have a ten round clip ,he said......oh!
He didn't know!
...he's been a gun owner longer then me...
some folks don't know untill it's to late.