[BCRider]

Looks like I'm going to be getting the money to do my cowboy action setup in the next month or so. The PLAN is to buy a lever rifle and one SAA clone both in .357Mag/.38Spl since I'm also shooting some modern revolver but I want my second revolver to be a C&B as my intro to black powder. At the moment I'm pretty much set on getting a Remington 1858 clone but I'm curious about the pros and cons of the caliber choice.

And with you guys being the knowledgable sort I've found you to be I come begging for info and opinions.

[brotherlloyd]

since your using 38 go for a remmy navy .36

[BCRider]

I should have added "how's the thump from each?".

While I'm going with .38 over .45LC I'm doing that for commonality rather than avoiding some recoil. That and the cowboy .45LC loads I shot when one of the guys let me go through a stage with his gear were so downloaded that it felt like a whimpy .38 Spl. Meanwhile the THUMP from the guy shooting two C&B revolvers had me spellbound. One was a Colt army open top and the other a Walker. Boy, did that combo look Walker heavy to that side when seen in the holsters :D The Walker obviously had "presence" but the Colt open top wasn't any slouch either. Sadly I didn't ask him what caliber it was. The next CAS event is in a week or so. I'll make it a point to grill the BP guys for more first hand info that I can relate to my own observations.

Now if I could shoot .38 cast bullets in a Navy .36 that would be a plus once I start doing my own .38 reloading. Is that what you were suggesting? Is that even do-able?

[BHP FAN]

You can if you end up getting a conversion cylinder,and some hollow based bullets.Blackpowder .36 round ball run about .375-.380, and modern cartridge bullets run .357-.359.

[D.Delozier]

Since you have to have 2 revolvers to compete,and 1 is going to be a colt clone in 38/357 I assume.I think I would opt for the 36 cal cap and ball because when it's time to covert it ,and you probly will eventualy it will convert to a 38 however if you leave the barrel stock you will have to use a heeled bullet design.But if you want common ammo for all 3 guns you can have the barrel lined down to 357, and use regular 38's even though it's called a 36 cal the bore is actualy larger than a modern 38

[D.Delozier]

BHP you beat me to it LOL

[BCRider]

I have no intention of converting the C&B to cartridge. The true goal is to get comfy enough with C&B to eventually get a second C&B to replace the SAA clone and shoot all BP for the revolver portion at least. At that point the SAA clone would act as a backup in case something goes kaflooey with one of the C&B guns.

Or if by some curse I can't come to terms with the whole C&B thing then I'd give up in shame and frustration and sell the Remington clone and buy a second SAA in .38/.357.

I may even try reloading some .357 casings with BP for an even more smokey show... :D

If I'm going to shoot cowboy I want to shoot COWBOY ! ! !:D

Anyone know how much BP I could get into a .38 casing or a .357 casing with a regular 158grn boolet on top of it?

[arcticap]

.38 Long Colt -Six Shot: The .36 caliber percussion revolver barrel has a bore diameter of .375 inches. Today’s .38 caliber cartridges are loaded with .357-inch diameter bullets. To attain accuracy with a modern .38 caliber cartridge, in your reproduction Navy revolver, you must shoot soft lead .38 spec.hollow base wad cutter , .38 colt hollow base or .38 Colt healed ammunition. The soft lead hollow base bullet will “bump up” to the .375-inch bore diameter and shoot very accurately.

The chambers will actually accept .38 Special hollow base wadcutter cartridges, however the cylinder is too short and is not intended for use of the standard .38 special cartridge.

The cylinder has been made this way so that the shooter can use commercially loaded hollow base, soft lead bulleted ammunition, it is not intended for the regular .38 special cartridge.

http://www.riverjunction.com/kirst/konverterFAQ.html


.45 acp lead rounds don't cost as much .45 LC ammo, and .45 acp factory lead reloads are even available that are below 900 fps. in velocity. For the small fractions of an inch difference in diameter between the acp and the LC, it makes the .45 acp conversion seem more economically attractive and fulfilling. There are many .45 acp bullet weights and styles available for the reloader too, including .452 diameter bullets.

http://www.riverjunction.com/kirst/konverter3.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Colt

[Matt-J2]

You could always go with the .45 Colt and load that with BP. They're anything but wimpy, and I reckon they're more cowboy than them pansie gamer loads. :) I've never fired anything but BP loads through my Ruger New Vaq in .45, and it sure is fun. Love the Cap&Ball though, too.
A .357 might not be bad though. Given rising costs, you can still get a nice BP boom, and use less lead in the process.



Does a .36 C&B have enough juice to knock down the plates? I'd expect so but might want to check. My C&B is a .44, haven't been fortunate enough to fire a .36 yet.

[arcticap]

There's also many Titewad and Trail Boss powder loadings listed for .45 acp lead bullet rounds in the Hodgdon reloading data center:

http://www.hodgdon.com/

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[D.Delozier]

If you are intent on shooting C&B as your main match guns then I will recant my earlier post and say I would for sure go with the 44 over the 36.However since you wish to be a real cowboy if you do choose the 44 option your locking yourself out of the fine handeling 51 colt navy class of revolvers cause they did'nt make them in 44. As for myself,I've become mostly a remington man over the past 3 or 4 years,but I still like the looks of the 51's

[BCRider]

Since one of my options up this way is to go Pietta I have the option of either .36 or .44 in all the options of 1851 Navy, 1860 Army as well as the 1858 Remington New Army. Now not all of these are authentic but they are an option. And with the price being lower than the Uberti options I'm tempted to go with Pietta given the feelings about them I've read here at THR.

The concern about the .36 not having enough oomph to kick over any knockdown targets is a valid point. The only event I've seen so far didn't have knockdowns other than for shotgun. But that could well change at some other venues.

[Hellgate]

90% of my 15+C&B revolvers are in 44 cal. The 36 is fine however as we rarely have knockdown targets anymore. I started CAS in 1992 and went BP/FM in 1993. If any knockdowns (KDs) came up I used the LEE 130gr conical in the 36s and it did fine. They shoot a little higher than the .375 ball. My main match guns for several years were a pair of 44 cal 1851 Navies made by ASM. The ASMs have the original shaped grip that was used in the 1873 SAA. I had the handling of the navy with the knockdown of the Army 44. I currently am partial to the Remingtons made by Uberti or Euroarms. The Remmies have fewer cap jams and hold a little more powder plus there is room for the LEE 200gr conical if there are any BIG poppers to drop. The Colts generally won't accept a 200gr conical without removing some metal from under the barrel. The Pietta Remmies have always worked well for people. For me they were a little heavy. Each make of Remington has a different weight and grip shape. The Euros being the smallest and lightest and the Piettas the largest and heaviest with Uberti in between.

The 38 spl will hold about 18grs BP (357 takes about 21) but I would recommend you use the Snakebite bullet as it carries enough lube to shoot all day long in the 38/357. I was unable to get any other bullet to do that until I switched to 777 for the 357 which will propel any bullet and lube.

[BCRider]

Hellgate, that helps a lot. Thanks for the first hand report.

Found some BP reloading info at the Goex web site. The numbers for loading BP in .38 and .357 for velocities don't look all that shabby.

Mind you I also found some info about concerns over spark induced ignition if we use the wrong powder handling equipment.

[Hellgate]

BC Rider: When i was working up 357 loads of BP & various subs, shooting at 50 yards ws like this:

BP, APP, Black Canyon, Black Mag3: POW.........ding!
777: POW....DING

The 777 hit faster and harder. somewhat between a full power smokeless load and a BP load. It's all I use now. The reason I did not buy the Snakebite 6 cavity mold is because I could not get ABSOLUTE reliable FEEDING in BOTH of my Rossi '92s. I have been able to get that from all but a few other shaped bullets (SWC, RN, RNFP). Marlins are less particular. The '66s & '73s seem to feed well as long as the OAL isn't too long.

[Hellgate]

BC Rider: When I was working up 357 loads of BP & various subs, shooting at 50 yards was like this:

BP, APP, Black Canyon, Black Mag3: POW.........ding!
777: POW....DING

The 777 hit faster and harder. Somewhat between a full power smokeless load and a BP load. It's all I use now. The reason I did not buy the Snakebite 6 cavity mold is because I could not get ABSOLUTE reliable FEEDING in BOTH of my Rossi '92s. I have been able to get that from all but a few other shaped bullets (SWC, RN, RNFP are OK). Marlins are less particular. The '66s & '73s seem to feed well as long as the OAL isn't too long.

[BCRider]

Again, thanks.

I've saved your info for later.

Who knows, at some point we may well meet up at a CAS event in the Northwest. I'll know you by your Orygun spelling.... :D

[Hellgate]

Hey BC Rider,
You ought to go to the Renton, WA Westmatch. It's like a carnival. No stand & deliver stages. You gotta do stuff like knock down poppers with the pistol, get arrows shot at you while shooting, hit bad guys who's pants fall off when kilt, blow up safes, etc ALL ON THE CLOCK!. They put the ACTION in Cowboy Action Shooting.
Hellgate

[BCRider]

BOY! When the stars and planets come into alignment they really kick in with a BANG!

After looking around at all the options for the past month and a half and finding nothing at all other than new I just found and paid for a pair of Uberti Remington New Army's that have only seen light and slight use. They are blued with brass trigger guards and the package comes with an extra cylinder. And although it's not a big deal to me the serial numbers are consecutive.

On top of that a question about where to find BP and caps on the Canadian forum I hang out in as well turned up a local with some stuff to sell. So provided the caps fit I'm all set to go play with the new toys shortly after the transfers are done and they come home with me.

I guess the next search will be for a rig to hold this pair of fine shootin' irons.

[Ratdog68]

where's the pix? :neener:

[BCRider]

Unlike down in the US it takes about a week for the ownership transfer to go through. There'll be pics posted up about 20 minutes after they come through my door.... just so I don't leave you with any sort of valid complaint.... :D

[Ginormous]

We'll complain anyway . . . pics are too dark, too fuzzy, too far away, too close, too big, too small . . . you know, the regular routine. ;)

[BCRider]

Just like any other regular disfunctional family, eh?

:D

The waiting is worse than two days before Christmas when you're a kid and expecting that Mecano set.....

[Ginormous]

Just like any other regular disfunctional family, eh?

That is, without a doubt, the truest and funniest thing I have read here. Ever.

:):):):):)

[BCRider]

I thought the seller had deleted the picture but I was mistaken. Here's the Photobucket link to what I'm getting.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll238/sniper3762/IMG_0038.jpg

I'll have my own pictures showing them along with the rather dapper new owner soon.... :D

[Ratdog68]

"I'll have my own pictures showing them along with the rather dapper new owner soon...."

I thought you bought 'em for yourself?!? :neener::evil::neener:

Nice Pair !!

[BCRider]

Somehow I knew you'd be first.... :D

Anyone HELPFUL :D got suggestions for a nice belt and holster set for these? I'm totally new to selecting this stuff but I'm thinking a belt with integral holster in the low slung gunfighter style on the right to aid in clearing the rather long barrel and then a slip on cross draw for the left hand pistol. Do I need to look for Remington specific holsters or will any of the longer barrel options work just fine?

I need to check on it but I understand that the US export laws do not apply to non cartridge black powder guns and parts. If this is so then I'll be buying a couple or three extra cylinders pretty soon. It would be nice to have them all loaded up other than the caps the night before and event.

Geez, at this rate can a Walker clone be far in my future?

I'm really looking forward to causing my very own "fog of war"..... :D

[Voodoochile]

Talk to BigBadGun for a nice rig to complement those fine Remington copies, he does fine work & never hurts the wallet too bad.

What powder have you decided to work with?

[Hellgate]

I can't help you on the holster info. I shoot a strong side (left) and a crossdraw. I use Slim Jim style holsters on a belt as they are more authentic ("period correct"). They are not a Buscadero drop holster. However, from a practical standpoint a drop holster would be much easier to draw from and reholster as I hafta practically haul the hoglegs up danged near to my armpit before I can shove them forward and cut loose. So do whatcha wanna do.
My Ubertis like the Remington #10 cap and the RWS #1075.

[Ratdog68]

Make yer own !! My buddy, Andy can hook you up with everything you need to do it yourself... seattle@tandyleather.com and you're good to go. The friend of mine teaching me to make my bow... he made a gorgeous holster (cross draw) and gun belt. I snagged a copy of his holster pattern and will do one up myself... AFTER I finish making the show chaps for the girlfriend's daughter. Danged kid... asked me if I'd make her chaps if she won the pageant she was competing in... then went out and won Jr. Miss Rodeo Washington !! I've never made a pair of chaps, let alone SHOW chaps. Oh well... I'm learning that too.

[Hellgate]

Hey Ratdog,
Could you PULEEEEZE show us pictures (front AND back view) of Miss Washington Rodeo WEARIN' them chaps?

[Ratdog68]

"JUNIOR" Miss Rodeo Washington JUST turned 14.

I'm sure a pic or two will have to be taken sometime along the way though.

[BHP FAN]

Any holster made for the 7 1/2 Colt SAA will fit your Remmies nicely.That's what I use for my 1875 clones,which are basicly the cartridge version of your pistolas.

[BCRider]

Well, I'm chuckling up a storm at the replies.... ESPECIALLY the pit that Hellgate dug his'self into.... even if it was unknowingly :scrutiny: :neener: :D

Rattdog, while I'd love yet another in a rather full slate of hobbys and shop crafts I really don't need the time expenditure. I think that wood working, metal machining and now gunsmithing should be enough along with my other intrests that I have for designing, building and flying model airplanes, bicycle mechanics (I've got 7 of the things along with enough stuff for a few more... even lace my own wheels) and 4 actively moving motorcycles. I really can't spare the time despite being newly retired. So I think I'll just wuss out and buy a rig... for now at least.

BHP, thanks for that fitment info. I've seen a number of that option on both Ebay and other sources so I'll just go that way. Bonus is that it'll fit any cartridge SAA's I may happen across in the future. While I'm keen on the BP C&B option I'm thinking it would be good to have a cartridge SAA in .38 Spl as a backup. The .38Spl is to fit in with the reloads I'm currently buying for my S&W's and will probably soon be reloading on my own. Also the lever rifle I'm going to buy will be a .357/.38Spl. At some point I may well end up loading up .357 brass with BP to match up better with my revolvers but for now I just want to not have to get into yet another caliber.

[Ratdog68]

it DID suddenly get a little quiet, didn't it? :evil:

Otay... some slack is cut and you can just miss out on the satisfaction of knowing that each and every saddle stitch holding your handmade holster will hold up so much better than any machine stitched rig ever thought of doing. :neener:

Ahhhh, yes... the fond memories of tearing down my 10-speed every winter and cleaning/tuning it all up, re-packing all the bearings, unlacing the wheels and polishin' 'em up and lacin' 'em back up again. I never did get the tune just right and had to take them in for the final truing.

[BHP FAN]

I'm loading my .38's with Goex 3f,at about twenty gr. with a 158 gr. cast bullet.I also load triple Seven and for a smokeless load HP38.All are Lee alox tumble lubed.I used to make tiny grease cookies of BP lube,but I discovered that if I mixed any smokeless lube with beeswax BP lubes in a shooting session,an unholy mess would result.

[BCRider]

YOU UNLACED YOUR WHEELS JUST TO CLEAN THEM ! ! ! ! ! !

That goes WAYYYYYY beyond just being simply analy retentive you know.... :D

I thought I was being over the top just cleaning the spokes once a year with a toothbrush and solvent. And not even my REGULAR toothbrush.

[Ratdog68]

I was just taking good care of a hard earned bicycle that I bought myself with my paper route money. The funny part is... I loaned the bike to a friend who was without transportation... he wrecked it and walked away from it... I never saw it again.

[Hellgate]

OOOOOOOPS!!!! Uh, no need to take pics of the rodeo queen til she's 18. Where's that shovel? I cant see out........... Anybody up there?

[Ratdog68]

You must've missed my initial "ID" of "Jr". :banghead: Anyone can make an honest mistake. Carry on. :rolleyes:

[Macgille]

One of my shooting buddies had a pair of custom made 1851s for cowboy shooting. He paid through the nose for them. He had a ton of trouble shooting Cowboy. You must understand that cowboy shooting is all about speed. any misfires and you are out of competition. You will have to nitrate your paper and make paper cartridges to be competitive. Unburned paper in the cylinder and the next time you load you have a problem. There is no time to solve problems when you have to shoot a stage. One cap falling off can put you out of the competition.

I watched him struggle with his c&B guns until the frames cracked. then he went back to his Vaqueros. I shot frontiersman and duelist with my SS vaqueros and my Puma '92 and Win '97. Loved the blast and the smoke. One of the best things about shooting black powder was hearing other shooters holler "what the hell was that?" when my .45 lc boomed out. After hearing the squib loads the gamesmen were using, the full power (compressed) loads in my guns were definitely loud. One time we were shooting down into a wooded area in the early morning and after I finished the pistol targets and picked up the rifle, I couldn't see the targets. I had to wait until the smoke thinned out before shooting the rifle. Slowed me down, but it was a hoot.:):)

Riverboat Bill Sass # 15678

[BCRider]

Macgille, I saw the same thing at the first monthly meet of CAS at my local club range. The breeze was so light that one of the rare guys shooting ALL black powder had to stop for a moment during his lever gun string to let the cloud meander by and expose the targets for the return string of shots. It was 10 rounds onto 5 targets up and back. I had to giggle a bit at this but it spoke more about what it was like to shoot in the old days than any of the modern smokeless folk doing their own thing.

I guess this is where the phrase "the fog of war" came from?

Watching this BP smoke show is what made me want to jump in hip deep and go with the some C&B percussion revolvers right off the bat. Chewing off more than I can swallow? Perhaps. But it'll be fun to make it work. And if I was taking it so seriously that a dropped cap and a missed shot ruins my stage then I would not have chosen this option.




But I'll probably buy a .38/.357 Vaquero or Uberti SAA for the days where one of the C&B's is acting up..... :D