[4Freedom]

I was having a real long convseration with a person today at gun store. Also, I have been researching and pondering the subject of 9mm vs 45. This guy is ex-military person and he was telling me stories about how his friends in Iraq have been having lot of problems since they switched from .45 to 9mm Beretta as their sidearm. He is saying, even though the 9mm will usually have the means to kill the enemy in combat, many have report it has not had enough stopping power to disable the attacker in a quick enough time to immobilze them or subdue the threat without risk of retaliatory attack.

I guess I have just had the feeling from many such discussions and from reading endless articles, debates, chats about 9mm vs .40 vs .45, that 9mm and even .40 really was a concept about increasing capacity by sacrificing quality. I know that I have the advantage of carrying 15 rounds in my Sig versus 10 rounds, and bullets cost .03 or so cheaper. However, the extra bullets will most likely be required, since the amount of energy transferred from the 9mm or .40 will be considerably less than from a .45.

Well, I know many 9mm and .40 owners will be criticizing me, perhaps calling me real ignorant or a traitor, but I am thinking I would be happy to get rid of my 9mm stuff and just go all out with .45. I find it kind of a pain to maintain two different caliber ammo stores and relying on a gun that would be less adequate for home defense, as well as

I am contemplating on selling my Sig P229 Elite as well as all my 9mm ammo and either getting a 1911 or an HK45 with it. I have a good store of 45 ammo, so I could perhaps score a bit extra and would have all I need.

I am thinking in time critical, high risk situations, where a BG needs to be disabled as quick as possible. These would be the more realistic scenarios I think I would ever have to use my handgun in an urban situation. I just think if I am having to use more than 10 rounds to subdue a threat with my 9mm , I am in deep crap anyway. The chances of me having to clear a room of guys with my 9mm are real slim. If I don't have enough time to reload my mags, I shouldn't be in the situation anyway.

Would a .44 perhaps be an even better option for such defense? I hear .44 suffers from overpentration, so I already feel the answer is no. Not sure if any lowered powered hollowpoints exist for urban defense. Also, not sure of the legality of using .44 for urban defense; i.e. how it would stand up in court of law when the BG family is suing me, etc.

What are people's thoughts about this? Please avoid any insults because I want to ditch the 9mm. I would appreciate to hear some constructive and intelligent comments about their opinions of the 9mm and its use as a defensive handgun. If you had to quickly take out an attacker who had a gun within 20 yards and three guns were sitting at a table, lets say you could only choose one; would you choose the 9mm, .45 or .44 to disable this guy before he hurts you? Lets pretend their are people around you, like little kids , and overpenetration will also be an issue.


TO disable a threat in home defense situation or in urban scenario, which order would you choose between the three calibers:
9mm, .44 and .45


P.S. Already have a S&W M&P 45, which I enjoy shooting.

[Shear_stress]

There are the same complaints about the "stopping power" of .223, which is vastly more powerful than either the 9mm or .45 and uses a couple of additional wounding mechanisms. I sure as hell wasn't there personally to witness the failure of any caliber, but the logic of the complaints is based on a fallacy: "X didn't have the effect I thought it would, therefore Y (which I did not have at the same time for comparison) would have been better." Also remember that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

As for the "big three" semi-auto handgun rounds (9mm, .40, .45), I have never seen any evidence that there is a yawning gap in effectiveness between them. We can debate the differences between them ad nauseum precisely because no one has definitively shown that one is significantly "better" than the other.

Shoot what you are comfortable with.

[loop]

I pondered this question more than a decade ago. Last week I finally got rid of my last .40. The 9s have been gone for years.

For reloading purposes the .45 is more expensive, but because I buy in larger quantities it has kind of evened out.

I really don't care about all the hearsay evidence about the Wonder 9s and the .40. I want proven. The .45 was proven in the Spanish American War. In that conflict .38s were not stopping assailants. The U.S. Army began sending out old SA .45s because Moro tribesmen were hacking Americans to death after being shot full of .38s.

That is why when the U.S. Army requested a new design in the early 20th Century it required they were in .45 caliber. Even non-fatal hits neutralized enemy combatants while fatal hits of .38 caliber did not.

Hence the decision to adopt JMB's 1911 pistol.

This was at least three generations ago. The lessons have been largely forgotten.

I have not forgotten. I carry the same caliber my grandfather carried into the trenches in Europe in WWI. I carry it because nothing else in a sidearm has been proven superior.

The arguments have been postulated that other calibers or cartridges are equal. Not only have they never been proven, they do not even try to assert superior.

We are two years short of the .45 ACP having 100 years of documentation. No one has proven any sidearm to be a superior man stopper in that time.

As for the caliber, when Sam Colt introduced his cap and ball pistol it was the .44 that was the standard and the most effective man stopper. It was proven in 50 years of Indian wars.

Who may testify as to the effectiveness of the .44/.45. Try the names Grant, Lee, Roosevelt, Patton and Jordan.

I do not own a 9mm Parabellum. I do not own a .40 S&W or a 10mm. I have two shelves lined with pistols chambered in .45 ACP. I'll never drink the 9mm Kool Aid again. Even the FBI figured out it will get you killed.

Do what you like. Base your decision on what you want. The .45 has 160 years of history as the standard to which all others are compared. I'll stick with the standard.

[CWL]

This guy is ex-military person and he was telling me stories about how his friends in Iraq have been having lot of problems since they switched from .45 to 9mm Beretta as their sidearm.

How many rank & file military do you think have served long-enough to have been issued both 1911s and M9s? Very few and they'd be pretty old by now since the M9 was adopted in the 1980s. How many of these do you think were unlucky enough to get in a firefight with only a sidearm more than once -and survived despite using inferior 9mm?

Soldiers like to bitch & moan, they like to tell stories. Take what you hear with a grain of salt and choose your weapons platforms based on what you like to shoot.

I chose .45ACP because I like shooting M1911s. Sure, they make bigger entry holes, but the real reason is because I like shooting .45ACP through my M1911s.

The more "fun" I have with my pistols, the more I want to train with them.

[Cpt. America]

Check out www.theboxotruth.com

[13Bravo]

Thank you, CWL. I agree with you 100%. I'm over here now, as a matter of fact. Back home though, I have a beretta 92fs and a few Kimbers, all of which I love to shoot. The 9 because it'll hold 16 and just feels wonderful, and the .45s because I can feel the power, and they too feel great. One shouldn't let others dictate what they should shoot based #s. If your confident in your 9 you won't have a problem hitting the X if the time comes.

[deacon8]

Personally, if you had one shot to "get" the bad guy (something that wasn't a high powered rifle), I would take the .44. The .44 magnum...not something Lee and Patton were using. However, since you seem to have your mind set on just the three options, I would choose the .45 ACP...again something that WASN'T used 160 years ago. Get rid of the "9." I mean come on, what kind of gun fight do you expect? If 8 rounds of thumpers won't do it, then you're gonna lose...

I would also like to mention that I sincerely believe that "overpenetration" is a good thing...even in urban areas. Crazy right? Well, as far as I'm concerned, what are the odds of your bullet going through a wall and hitting someone center of mass?! Not good right? Forget it and shoot for heaven's sake! We aren't the cops...who cares what they use. If anything, we are allowed to be better equipped because we don't have all of the crazy boundaries that they do. Get something that will KILL the bastard (after all, he's trying to do the same for you). Use a 30-06...they are perfect medicine for crooks.

[Prion]

If you want stopping power get a 12 gauge slug gun with 1 1/2 oz magnum slugs. Or a standard 12 guage with 00 or 000 buck.

Keep your 9mm for fun and practice, range work etc. I love em both. Actually I love them all and want one of each. Every caliber, a gun for each, piles of ammo........

And you want just one??????

[Mr.510]

If you sell everything else and go all .45 you won't look back. Does that answer the question? .45ACP is the king daddy threat stopper in handgun combat against humans. Big, heavy, slow, and big. As Loop said it's the standard by which all others are judged.... and nothing has been proven superior. Virtually all that have been held up next to the .45 have been proven significantly inferior. One cartridge or another may shine really brightly in one particular circumstance but it's always a trade off for it being horribly ineffective at something else. A great example is .44 Magnum: It will stop a threat like nothing else, along with a kid 100 yards behind the BG or the lady sleeping two houses away. .45ACP is exactly the right compromise in almost everything. That's why it has not only survived, but flourished for 100 years.

Uber capacity wundernines are great for spray-n-pray and clearing buildings. As a responsible civilian I will never do either.

:D

[bakert]

My usual carry gun is a .45 but I feel quite well protected the times I carry a 9MM. I hear about all of these stories about how the 9MM has failed miserably in Iraq but just exactly how many of these soldiers have actually seen someone shot with a pistol??:uhoh:

[steveracer]

CWL: We had 1911s on my ship in 1999. I used them often, and carried them on duty and shot them often.
We also had Smith .38s, and of course the M-9. This wasn't all that long ago.
The MTU at Camp Legeune had 1911s until FOUR YEARS AGO. I shot them, and helped fit parts on them as many were worn out. So, there a plenty of guys who have used the 1911 recently in the military.
However, the last time we went to war with them as our PRIMARY pistol was Panama. So, yes, there aren't too many guys who used both at war.
The Beretta runs very well, and I had exactly zero problems with either of mine in Iraq. They were accurate, reliable, and in reality, they shoot hardball just the same as any other gun.
The problem is not the caliber, but the type of round. The FMJ bullets never expand, and most of the time pass right through the target.
Give me lead hollow-point .38s over FMJ .45 every time.

[Kwanger]

Im a recently ex army guy too. A comment made above that soldiers like to moan is true! And yes, another comment about how many soldiers have shot at someone with a pistol.....not many, so I am always kinda amused by this '9mm is crap' argument. Ask about 5.56, different story.....but thats another topic.

Remember one thing as a civilian you have an advantage with is ammo choice which is denied to the military. Using good JHP rounds is a big leveler.

Another consideration (a big huge consideration in this day and age.....) is cost of ammo! If you want a safe queen, get the 45. If you want to get proficient and practice more, stick with your 9mm. Or as someone else said.....keep your 9mm and get the 45 as well!

[wvshooter]

I have always carried 9mm or .40 caliber but have decided .45 is the right caliber for carry. Why? Simply for all the reasons you mention. 9mm and .40 are nice but if you can put .45 on a BG or BG's why not do so. I mean it's your own life you are protecting. The capacity question was always on my mind but for me the 13 rounds in the magazine of a full size XD answer that issue. I don't have the XD yet but it's my next purchase. I won't be selling any of my other guns because I enjoy reloading and shooting all calibers. Having made this decision, I feel a little like Grasshopper must have felt when he finally graduated from Master Po's school for aspiring monks.

[whitebb]

I believe everyone should have many various calibers on hand. I reload, and occasionally cannot find components. Currently I cannot find 9mm stuff, so I am reloading 38/357 and 40/10mm. I have a bunch of 45 sitting.
I enjoy pistols but will not consolidate to any 1 caliber. If you only purchase ammo from stores, there are sometimes problems getting your caliber. I am not concerned, because I switch guns/calibers to market conditions.

Just my $0.02.

[NG VI]

Quote:
This guy is ex-military person and he was telling me stories about how his friends in Iraq have been having lot of problems since they switched from .45 to 9mm Beretta as their sidearm.

How many rank & file military do you think have served long-enough to have been issued both 1911s and M9s? Very few and they'd be pretty old by now since the M9 was adopted in the 1980s. How many of these do you think were unlucky enough to get in a firefight with only a sidearm more than once -and survived despite using inferior 9mm?



I was thinking the same thing.

[kanook]

I know a couple of LEOs that still carry the 44. Most of the guys I know when asked about the 9mm that they carry say they want it for capacity. I carry a 45 and am trying to choose between a 38+p (I currently cast and reload for this) and a 44spec (no reloading yet) for a bug. I understand your confusion:D

[ozwyn]

Unless there is a pressing economic need, keep your guns.

What if 5 years down the road you change your mind again? a 9mm safe queen is better than regretting selling the gun.

[BlindJustice]

I'm in the .45 ACP 'camp.' I have a 1911 as well as a 625 5" Bbl. .45 ACP - I also keep a stock of .45 Auto Rim. The .45 ACP in
full moon clips is an easy way to accumulate once fired brass without
having to bend over and search for brass. I served in the USN
and carried the 1911A1 on watch/POOW duty, earned the ribbon
with it.

However, with the rising cost of ammo, I got a CZ 75B in 9mm LUger
about a year ago to have a more economical option at the
range. So, now I shoot less .45s but supplement it with the CZ and 9x19.
It has it's place, but I think I'll get a 1911 in CCO format for a CCW as
the next handgun acquisition.

As far as .40 S&W goes, nothing really appeals to me except perhaps a
S&W 610 for a 10MM Auto & .40 S&W platform - just to have one
cause I like DA revolver shooting and the big N-frame S&Ws.

Cover the bases yah never know when you might run into
somebody who wants to unload extra ammo.

One thing I've learned if you have a gun that is accurate
and reliable NEVER let it go.

Randall

[Daniel1120]

Why not go with the 9x25 dillon on a 1911 platform? Damn near 357 mag velocities, in an autoloader. 10mm necked down to 9mm, cant go wrong with that.

[PhiloebeddoUSA]

I love the .45. But I would not consolidate to just that round. The one thing that I have learned in the recent ammo/craze is that it is wise to have multiple calibers. Most everyone on the boards can give you at least one story about a shopping trip to their local ammo stop and the shelves have been empty. I'm shooting air rifles right now ($5 for 4000 bbs!) because I can't justify shooting up my supply.

Another thing to think about is that even though the ammo drought will probably end in the next 6-12 months, inflation will rear its ugly head in a big way. Our government is printing money to buy our own Treasuries. The dollar's value will be seriously compromised. Couple this with another spike in basic materials (copper, lead, oil to transport) and the cost of Ammunition will not be going down.

The reason I mention this is that the .45 is an expensive round. If you had to get rid of your 9's, you might want to pick up or trade for a .22 for constant, inexpensive shooting. Best of Luck!!

[GTSteve03]

Yes, please sell all your 9s and switch to 45! That way we have one less person buying/shooting up the 9mm ammo and I can find some more! :mad:

[boatingboy]

All my guns were .45 minus a glock 26 (9mm). Last month I sold it and bought a Glock 30 SF. Now all I have is .45 and a S&W model 60 .38 for when I have to pocket carry.

[JImbothefiveth]

Would a .44 perhaps be an even better option for such defense? According to Marshal and Sanow .44 magnum is not as good as .45 ACP, probably because the bullets ar designed for hunting and don't expand as much. They say .44 special is good though. I guess it really it whether you want a wheelgun or a semi-auto.

[rbernie]

The one thing that I have learned in the recent ammo/craze is that it is wise to have multiple calibers.Absolutely. And ammo availability issues can happen for any number of reasons.

[psyopspec]

Virtually all that have been held up next to the .45 have been proven significantly inferior.

From what data do you derive this? Most comparisons by mathematics, physics, and ballistic gel that I've seen show them pretty close. Maybe a slight edge to .45 ACP, but the word "significant" doesn't even enter the lexicon. Nothing that shot placement won't ultimately trump, anyway...

[crebralfix]

45 ACP, 9mm, 40 S&W, 44 Magnum, 357 Magnum, 38 Special...and so on are all adequate for defense. But...they're still handgun rounds...which means they suck (compared to a rifle).

All the Internet arguments (used to be mostly in the gun rags) are fun, but just that. If you buy quality self-defense ammo (and no, not FMJ ammunition unless you're broke, desperate or both), then you're covered.

Therefore, it really comes down to what you want to do. Many guys like a variety of calibers because they're into the shooting sports.

***

I'm listening to the May 6, 2009 episode of Down Range Radio. Bane is interviewing Paul Gomez. Gomez stated (paraphrase): capacity determines the time the gun is in the fight. It simply means the amount of time you can continue to fire without having to stop. These pauses are significant because they give your attacker an opportunity to attack from a distance without immediate retaliation. Given that you can DIE immediately, this is something to consider. Gomez teaches in his rifle courses varying rates of fire: one per second, two per second, three per second and four per second. One to three per second is attainable in training without adrenaline; four is reserved for the extremely well trained and those experiencing an adrenaline dump. So, at three per second...a thirty round magazine lasts only 10 seconds. A revolver will be emptied in two seconds (good luck reloading on the move and under pressure).

Adrenaline does weird things to us.

We can go back and forth all day long about the "true number of rounds needed for The Gunfight". Well...it's all BS because we cannot predict the future. Stats are just a mathematical description of events and are used to understand what's going on. They certainly don't predict the future, though many gun writers and trainers seem to believe in "precognitive statistics". We could go with the FBI stats of something like 2.x rounds per fight...or use the example of a beat cop fighting in a parking lot for so long that he had to go back to his squad car for more ammunition. So, I think rather than considering the extremes, we should consider what is likely and prepare for "likely +1" or "likely +2".

If the average number of rounds fired is three (just rounding up) and the average number of attackers is 2 (rounding up), then six rounds should be enough. If we go with three attackers, then nine rounds should be enough. The problem with this thinking is that we never know what's going to happen. Additional factors, such as adrenaline and training, will also skew things a bit. If you're a point shooter...you'd better have bigger magazines. What happens if the guy is wearing body armor and you just dumped five of your six rounds into him? That's not a good situation to be in. At least with a 1911 with 8+1 capacity, the gun still has four rounds left.

Remember, this is a TWO WAY range, so a two second pause could mean 2-8 incoming rounds per attacker...they get adrenaline dumps too. Some bad guys even go to the range and practice.

This is not to say "don't use a revolver", "9mm rules" or "use only 18 round magazines". Far from it. AMERICAN culture is one of "bestest-mostest". Face it...we tend to think in these terms. We want the badest gun, with the most firepower and have to be the fastest shooter. Rather than going for all that, perhaps we should strive to be the "bestest" tacticians who have the skills and attitude to prevail with the guns and gear we have. If that means all 45 ACP handguns for you, then so be it. Know and carry those guns and forget about all the hype.

[BullitHolz]

I have a budy who is a cop, now I understand the needs of LE's are differnt than those of us who are private citizens where guns are concerned....

So anyway my friend was going on about a few incidents where cops got shot or run down by perps in cars and a few other incients inside buildings. He, like most of the rest of the force, used to carry a "wonder nine" but after the incidents he was talking about the dept decided to drop that caliber in favor of the .40S&W or the .45ACP, reason being with that the 9MM simply didn't get the job done in many LE situations.

OK so most of us are not LE and probably don't need to live like we are..RIGH NOW anyway. What about the future though? Is it possible that you might find yourself in a situation where you might need to shoot through a door or a car windsheild? If you have a 9mm the bullets will most likely bounce off and be ineffective in those situations, hollow points don't work on hard targets.

I'm like most people and like all calibers, even the nine but when the SHTF I probably won't be grabbing one for my personal priotection.

[ArmedBear]

OK so most of us are not LE

Yeah, but the guy who breaks into my house is the same guy the cop has to deal with. We just don't deal with such a person every day (or hopefully ever). But for that one time, that one shot, if you ever have to take it, I can't see much difference between the firearm a cop needs to stop an attack, and the one a homeowner needs.

[bellyup039]

Ok, In short. go with the 45 acp.

Long version,
I am a LEO have been for 19 years. My father is retired LEO firearms instructor. I have been at the range my hole life. And have seen the police department that my dad worked for change from

38 special's, to 357 mag. (they were only permitted to carry 38 special ammo in them) to 357 mag ammo, to 9mm sig's (this is when my dad took over as firearms instructor) to 40 glock's to the now .45 acp glock's.

I have shot my own .380's into the man shaped metal knock down targets and heard the ping, but no knock down.
I have shot my 9mm into same target and watched it slam into the ground.
I have shot my 1911 into it and looked at the dent it made on impact.
I have shot my now 45 GAP into it and was just as impressed. (balisticly, the 45 gap 180 grain is the same as a 45 acp in 230 grain.)

Ok real life situations, Guys that I work with. 4 guys shot bad guy 9 times center mass at 3 yards, with the (IN MY HUMBLE opinion) JUNK 40 cal 180 gr jhp. Bad guy was still able to stab one of them in the arm. Nice huh?

Ok real life. Guys I work with shot bad guy high on crack with 45gap.
two shooters, center mass 4 hits. Bad guy 10-7 (out of service).
No police or others hurt. (The 45 gap did it's job perfectly.) I know, you ask, if it worked perfectly, why 4 shots? Answer, We are trained to double tap. Two shooters both fireing at same time, both double tap equals 4 shots.

Ok real life. On the job I have had to put down many many many deer that have been hit by cars. When I started we had 357 mag's. 1 or 2 shots is all it took to completely kill the deer, with no movement.
Then we had 40 cal's. It was normal to shoot 7 or 8 rounds. (all the guys agree the 40 sucks to Incapacitate a deer.) (sorry my only comparison is a deer).

Ok real life. On the job I used my 45 gap. one or two shots max. And the deer is done.

I took my father in law to Cabella's so he could pick out a new home protection gun. ( he isn't the big gun guy, but is ok ) On recomendation, he turned out with a Smith and wesson 38 spl. 5 shot. In my humble opinion, still better for him than the 9 because his wife can use it in an emergency home invasion situation with little training. Whereas the 9 will require much more training. (which I know isn't a bad thing.)

Over all real life expirence, 45 acp with 230 gr jhp or 45 gap with 180 Jhp.

Hope that helps.

[Gun Slinger]

Hmm, 'nother "rehash" of 9mm vs. .45ACP.

I agree with ozwyn, unless finances (or lack thereof) dictates, keep 'em both. I carry, shoot and enjoy both the 9mm and the .45ACP see no point in getting rid of a perfectly fine caliber/gun (either 9 or .45) just for the sake of doing so. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Each round has its strengths and weaknesses. Its nice to have "options".

[Yo Mama]

In my humble oppinion :evil:

1. cost of 9mm vs. .45 is significant if your shooting alot

2. platform: I would only utalize a 9mm in a tiny package. I've yet to find a .45 that fits in my pocket. I can't always carry a .45.

Looking at full size guns, .45 hands down. Why?

Because it's a .45 dude!:)

[kwelz]

I did the exact opposite. I am down to 2 .45s and am trying to sell one of them. my factors were cost, concealability, and the realization that after a certain point the caliber war is nothing more than a lot of posturing and mine is better than yours talk.

[Clarence]

I carry a .45 ACP but I still enjoy shooting my 9mm and my .38 and my .357 and my .44 Special and my .......well you get the picture.

[CWL]

steveracer, so what part of my post do you not agree with?

Seems like you took the long way around to say the same thing...

[Norinco982lover]

PM me a price on that Sig 229 :P My FIL might be looking for one. :)

My wife has her XD9SC and I have my XD45C. The next gun I buy will probably be a S&W 642. I like the fact that I have several calibers to choose from when I go shooting. I shoot what I find at Walmart.

~Norinco

[searcher451]

If you feel the need to add a .45 to the fold, by all means add it. Add two if you like. But under no circumstances should you ever sell a gun, or any stripe or caliber. You'll live to regret it, if ever you live so long.

[pred66]

I carry a 38 special with wad cutters.
I used to carry a 45 acp for hikes.
Since I crossed the path of 2 bears withen 150 feet,
I now carry a 44 mag hiking and camping.
For daily neighborhood 38 or 357 in an airlight platform.
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd174/predspics/629-2.jpg
If you can take the weight, I would think the 44 mag puts the 45 to shame.
But a DA 45 is a good gun, Just wish I could find a lightweight revolver for the 45 acp/
Peter

[EdLaver]

I agree with Kwanger's post. Remember, the military only uses FMJ, you get ALOT more out of 9mm with hollowpoint ammo. All the varieties of ammo available today levels the 9mm's playing field for stopping power. The newest 9mm round I have fallen in love with is the Hornady Critical Defense. Shot a couple thawed briskets with it and the damage was unbelievable.

[bigfatdave]

I can tell you that I'm regretting the policy to have only 2 handgun calibers (9mm and .22) in out collection. Nothing to do with the power of the 9mm*, but the availibility of ammo is spotty, and I often find ammunition in calibers other than 9mm. Diversity is the answer to the 9mm/.45/.32/.22/.454 debate, if I was buying a gun solely for home defense, I wouldn't even be looking at handguns, if I was buying something for range time only I would just shoot .22, if I knew I would only ever be confronted with multiple assailants I would have nothing but high-capacity 9mm, and if my only fear was a hopped-up junkie trying to mug me, I would carry a ridiculous hunting revolver.

Paring your collection down to .45ACP only will limit your options, it isn't a magic bullet that will stop anything you point it at, there is no perfect gun/ammo choice for all situations and you know better.

Personally, I'm looking to acquire a .45 for my next handgun, NOT because it is the ultimate man-stopper, but to bring up the centerfire handgun ammo possibilities to two, as I'm hurting with only one to look for.

*(that argument is really getting tired, can we all simply admit that any handgun is a compromise?)

[psyopspec]

Is it possible that you might find yourself in a situation where you might need to shoot through a door or a car windsheild? If you have a 9mm the bullets will most likely bounce off and be ineffective in those situations, hollow points don't work on hard targets.

Source on 9mm bouncing off of a windshield?

[4Freedom]

There has been lot of good, in depth responses, for which I want to thank everyone. I do currently own a S&W M&P 45 and a SIg P229 Elite. What has been making me want to lean towards the .45 is its reputation of being a man-stopper. Notice I say "man-stopper", not "man-killer". Sure, the Portland Oregon police department boasts about killing more bad guys with 9mms then with .45s, but if you look a bit deeper you will also hear that the Portland police are forced to use quite a bit more lead to neutralize their target then they previously had to with the .45. A lot of the criminals have died of causes like blood loss, which won't help you if he manages to plug 6 holes in you before he dies. As far as shot placement goes, its easy to get good placement at the range, but how about with a gallon of adrenaline rushing through your blood.

Anyway, I think when it comes to Self Defense, its not about killing the BG, its about knocking him down and neutralizing the threat ASAP, and from my research it really seems that .45s are better at this. Sure, a 9mm can do this, but if SHTF, I want the best possible gun that can stop the threat as soon as possible. Also, if my bullet ends up going through bad guy and killing a little innocent kid, believe me, I will just as well wished the bad guy shot me before I could have taken the life of an innocent pedestrian by mistake.

As far as being cheaper and for plinking, I don't know if anyone has been looking around, but the price of 9mm is hardly any cheaper than .45 anymore. I don't mind paying an extra .04 a bullet to plink with a .45, because I don't plink with this type of gun and it would be my defense gun, so why plink with 9mm at this price? For large scale plinking, I just bought a Browning Buckmark in .22 and that seems more pratical.

I know some preach diversity, but I find it kind of a pain to have two different calibers and having to maintain two different stockpiles of ammo. If i Keep one caliber, I can bulk up more and more on ammo, which saves money considerably. Seeing that I have two calibers to maintain, I have to get smaller quantities of each ,which really sucks.

Yeah my Sig P229 Elite is one sexy dude, but I am leaning towards the HK45 to complement my S&W M&P45. I know i am losing 5 rounds in the mag, but if I got a group of bad guys to take out, who says those 15 rounds of 9mm will be one-hit droppers? I wish I could keep my Sig, as I have fallen in love with it and it shoots way more accurately then I do. But, money is dang tight and I just cannot afford to keep the gun, all the mags and ammo and get another .45. As far as plinking goes, I rather buy a bunch of .22, with the money I gained by selling the 9mm ammo. I have a good deal of .45 ammo and now can focus on bulk buying it if I salvage the 9mm and the ammo.

As far as home defense, I do have a 12 ga semi auto shotgun, but I just cannot go carrying my 12 ga around town with me, although I wish i Could :rolleyes:.

[BullitHolz]

Source on 9mm bouncing off of a windshield?

I have a friend that is a LEO here in the Omaha PD, the story came diesctly from him. Apparently there have been a few situations where the local PD has had to fire at perps that were attempting to run them down in their cars. The story, as he told it, was that the officer(s) fired multiple rounds from their 9MM's through the windsheild of the perps cars and most did not penetrate and in one case none did.

I think if you consider that most of the PD's in this country have left the high capacity nines for other larger calbers then there must be a good reason for it.

[Bentonville]

+1 Searcher...seriously.

[eagleno49]

Just wish I could find a lightweight revolver for the 45 acp/
Peter Smith & Wesson does http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=67967&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

[kamagong]

I am firmly entrenched in the .45 camp, but I am keeping my 9mm CZ-75B. Why? The 1911 is my pistol of choice, and I shoot it well. My fiancee, on the other hand, does not handle the recoil of my 1911s well and prefers to shoot the CZ. I know it is all mental and she can be taught to shoot the 1911, but why force her to do so if she has already found a gun she likes?

[easyg]

I was having a real long convseration with a person today at gun store. Also, I have been researching and pondering the subject of 9mm vs 45. This guy is ex-military person and he was telling me stories about how his friends in Iraq have been having lot of problems since they switched from .45 to 9mm Beretta as their sidearm. He is saying, even though the 9mm will usually have the means to kill the enemy in combat, many have report it has not had enough stopping power to disable the attacker in a quick enough time to immobilze them or subdue the threat without risk of retaliatory attack.
If you want to drop the 9mm and go .45APC exclusively, then you don't need to justify that decision to anyone.
After all, faith in one's caliber of choice is very important for peace of mind.

But don't do it because of some war stories you've been told.

The vast majority of military personnel are not even issued handguns.
And even the ones that are issued handguns almost always prefer to use a rifle or machine-gun first and foremost....the handgun is almost always a weapon of last resort.
The long and the short of it is this:
In the great scope of things, there's just not that much handgun action going on over in Iraq.
Just like every war before it, long-guns rule the day.

And you cannot forget that the military does not use hollow-points or the most effective ammo available for the 9mm.
As a civilian, you have no such restrictions.

[10-Ring]

I have 9 mm & 45 acp cohabitating in my safe -- and feel equally secure.
Keep what you have, add to it & rest assured! ;)

[memphisjim]

the army guys also are forced to use fmj because of nato

[twofifty]

For IPSC/IDPA training purposes, the .45 makes holes that appear very clearly in your sight picture. You'll know right away whether your first shot is an A, B, C or D hit, and can adjust point-of-aim accordingly.

9mm holes are harder to see, while the .45 gives instant feedback.

[VegasOPM]

Send me all of your piddly 9mm ammo, guns and accessories. I'll happily remain "undergunned".:evil:

[vmfrantz]

You need both. I could never get rid of either of mine.

mike

[weisse52]

Well,

I just like the .45 better. I have watched this "crap" for several decades now. Own what you want, shoot what you trust. I do not have confidence in 9mm, but that is based upon "my" opinion. You can find piles of information that supports both sides.

Still find the .45 easier to deal with when reloading, your opinion may vary.

These threads are fun to read.....

[MrCleanOK]

You might also keep in mind that our friends in the military are shooting 9mm ball. Modern expanding bullets lend the 9mm a little more credibility.

That said, I'm a .45 man. In my gun of choice (Springfield XD), the .45 holds fewer rounds than the 9mm, but more than the .40. And, the .45 is more enjoyable to me than the .40. There was no reason for me not to go for the .45.

[HammerheadSSN663]

Here's the most educated reply I can provide:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/45ACP.html

[kyo]

go for the .45
most fun thing ever

[BHP FAN]

I have both.9mm is cheaper,.45 is more fun.

[jpwilly]

45 cal and 1911's are my favorites. My only wondernine is a close second and it's a CZ 75! Get what you want they'll make more.

[blkbrd666]

I think if someone feels more confident with a .45, by all means, that's what you should carry. If anyone doesn't have faith in what you can do with a 9mm though, then why not consider the S&W 500. You shouldn't go through life under stress...it's not healthy.

[loop]

In my previous post I cited other reasons for going with .45, but the fact is I did it consolidate. I reload and it cost a bundle to have bullets, primers and powder for .357, 9 mm, 40 S&W and .45 on hand.

Fundamentally, these were my true SD calibers. But, by eliminating everything but .45 I only have to buy one kind of bullet and one kind of primer. Since I load for accuracy and reliability I have to have two kinds of powder on hand and load several different rounds with the same bullet, but different powder charges.

I have to say cost is relatively neutral. I am currently paying a little under $14 per 100 for .45 ACP. I do not find that price a factor that limits my range time. I've decided to break out my lead pot and go back to casting again and that will cut my cost to $7 per 100 for .45.

To me the cost argument is bogus. If you want to shoot you pay the price. It is an expensive hobby.

I've spent thousands of dollars on training (and will drop at least another $700 on training in June). Ammo is the least expensive part of my shooting.

I have a 1911 that cost me close to $3,000. The holster cost another $130 and the mag pouch was another $65. I just picked up 10, 10-round 1911 mags for a couple hundred. I rarely buy grips for under $100.

Even if ammo was $50 a box it would still be the cheapest part of shooting.

As for being harder to conceal, if you can't conceal one of those teeny Glocks, a Colt Officer's model, a Para Slim Hawg or a Kahr, you ain't trying.

The caliber comparisons aren't really valid. Every time I see one it is a 115 9mm or a 125 38 compared to a .45 hardball. The comparison should be to a 185 gr. HP in 45. Or, a 148 gr. 9 or 158 gr. 38 to a .45. It doesn't really matter because what everyone chooses to compare it to is the .45 ACP. Why? Because it is the standard.

I don't care what anybody else shoots. It ain't my gun. But, the OP asked how people felt about consolidating. I consolidated my shooters years ago and have never regretted it.

I have a lot of other calibers. I just don't shoot any of them enough to even bother loading for them. Why would I? I have a lot of really nice .45 ACPs.

Besides, none of them have the feel of a .45. Be it a 1911, a CZ97 or a Glock. The .45 feels better.

And, it makes a big hole that I can see from the firing line.

[spyderdude]

The thing with military guys complaining that the 9mm just isn't enough to stop the enemy, they use ball ammo, which in 9mm isn't the greatest in stopping power, but with proper shot placement it can be done. Fortunately in the civilian world and law enforcement, we have the luxury of having expanding hollow point ammo which creates more internal damage than regular ball ammo.

You should always carry the biggest and most powerful caliber you can shoot accurately, and for me its 9mm. I do not feel under gunned with 9mm given I use JHP ammo, and not ball ammo. If I had to use ball ammo you bet I would opt for a .45.

[crebralfix]

4Freedom,

One other consideration: rather than getting a different handgun (the HK), why not get another S&W M&P 45? All your gear will work and operation is identical. Magazine cost is something to consider and HK sure is proud of their magazines.

For me, if I were to consolidate to 45 ACP...it would be due to ease in reloading. It's just so versatile.

I am considering 44 Magnum, but would download most of my rounds to 44 Special performance. Of course...I'll still have the option to make a box of real zingers....

OK...back to caliber wars!

[ojibweindian]

Keep the Sig. But if you absolutely have convinced yourself to sell it so as to finance a new 45, then follow crebralfix's advice and buy another M&P 45 as a spare to your current one.

[calaverasslim]

Darn good idea. I now have 2 different 1911's in 45acp. Still have my 9 tho.

Any question concerning the validity to the ststements from returning GIs vis-a-vis the 45 and 9, just ask the FBI agents involved in that famous shootout in Miami a number of years ago.

I read about that and bought my 1st 1911

[ambergerftriley]

45 is the only way to go. im going overseas for my third time and wish i could carry my 1911 with me. its the best gun ive ever had. i also tried a new springfield xd in 45 and am highly impressed with the way it handled, considering i usually hate a gun without a hammer.

[golden]

4Freedom,

If what you want is an increase in power, go with the .40 S&W. Use the 155 grain jacketed hollow point. You will have a significant increase in power over either the 9m.m. or .45ACP ball loads.

You will also get an noticable increase in recoil and reduction in magazine capacity. For me, the choice is usually a 9m.m. loaded with +P or +P+ JHP. I prefer the lower recoil level and greater speed and control that goes with it.

You can usually get the same gun in either caliber, so it is a matter of which gun works best for you.

The size of the .45ACP round frequently dictates a bigger, heavier gun. That is a negative to me. You also have a lower magazine capacity.
I like 16 9m.m. +P a lot more than 8 .45ACP. Also, the gun itself may have a smaller grip which may aid in your shooting.

If you are in a situation where you are restricted to full metal jacket ammo, then a .45ACP is the way to go. The stopping power failures in IRAQ are related to the use of FMJ ammo. When using ball ammo, the larger bullett really does have an advantage.

Good luck,

Jim

[545days]

"How many rank & file military do you think have served long-enough to have been issued both 1911s and M9s? Very few and they'd be pretty old by now since the M9 was adopted in the 1980s."

Hey! I'm not that old, I'm only 44!

I was issued an arsenal reworked .45 for the first Gulf War. In 1991 most of the active Army had the 9mm, but some of us lowly reservists still carried 1911's. I was issued the 9mm for Iraq. I liked the .45 better, but thankfully never had any occasion to fire either of them in anger.

[Kansan]

There's obviously enough similarity between the 2 rounds to generate 60+ posts (and probably many dozen more). The military & LE, etc have tested both rounds and have found them both acceptable for killing people, so just go with whatever will give you peace of mind... but more importantly, go with a platform that you know how to shoot and can hit something with. Shot placement, by far, is more of a determining factor in the outcome of a gunfight than the size and speed of two chunks of lead that have relatively similar killing capacity (vs. say, an arrow, a baseball bat, or a kitchen skillet).

[ambergerftriley]

a little harsh arnt we.

[MudPuppy]

How many rank & file military do you think have served long-enough to have been issued both 1911s and M9s? Very few and they'd be pretty old by now since the M9 was adopted in the 1980s.

WTH, man? Pretty old?? :)

The 45s we had in the mid 80s were well used and less than accurate. I thought I'd read that all in the inventory (at the time) had been mfg'ed during WWII.

I remember reading an article in the late 80s on "one shot stops" that reviewed many LEO shootings. The 357 was listed as the leader with something like 75% one shot effectiveness and the 45 was a close second. (I know, why a single shot--who does that??). Anyhow that was before 10s and 40s etc.
But, I remember the FBI Miami shootout and reports of the 9mm not penetrating the seats of that Monte Carlo (or does that speak to the effectiveness of GM?).

I have a Taurus 9 that I love, the wife has a Ruger 45. I've had a couple of 45s that I've gotten rid of (S&W couldn't get through a whole mag without a jam of any and every type and I couldn't hit squat with the 8045 Cougar), but I'm going to either get a 1911 or a EAA/Baby Eagle--and hopefully both. I just like the 45 round better. I sure don't think anyone choosing a 9 or 40 is wrong, and I'd ask that you not be an enabler of folks that would state empirically 9s or 40s are "bad" or wrong choices. :)

You'll not be unarmed with either, do what you feel best about and you'll be fine. And both is always the right answer-lol.

[HuntAndFish]

What are people's thoughts about this? Please avoid any insults because I want to ditch the 9mm. I would appreciate to hear some constructive and intelligent comments about their opinions of the 9mm and its use as a defensive handgun. If you had to quickly take out an attacker who had a gun within 20 yards and three guns were sitting at a table, lets say you could only choose one; would you choose the 9mm, .45 or .44 to disable this guy before he hurts you? Lets pretend their are people around you, like little kids , and overpenetration will also be an issue.


9mm VS 45. ;)

I would be more likely to choose a gun that I knew I could shoot well, rather than a particular caliber. Shot placement is King. If you shoot a car in the fenders, you aren't stopping the motor.

Personally, I think you are going the wrong way. Until you can shoot little tiny groups and shoot multiple magazines full of cartridges on a small target at 20 yds then you are fixated too much on caliber and you need to practice your shooting. Once you can hit where you are shooting without fail, it won't matter so much what caliber you are using.

45 ACP is not a talisman that will keep the bogeyman away from your door.

JMO.

[cleetus03]

Has anyone considered the ability to lay down Suppressive fire with a 9mm because of its large magazine capacity? I mean a wonder 9 gives you the ability to lay down lead keeping the opponent pinned down enabling you to book the hell out of the situation while still having ammo left to shoot to kill.

This is not to be confused with spray & pray.
"Suppressive fire is used with the objective of preventing opposing forces from taking any action, such as returning fire; and forcing them into cover. Spray and pray is used when the location of the enemy is unknown, the attacker is inexperienced, or the target is too far away or moving too fast to effectively be aimed at. Spray and pray may be used as a response to suppressive fire."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressive_fire

No one ever seems to talk about the peace of mind a 12rd subcompact or 20rd 9mm service pistol gives the user. I can recall several reality cop shows where a officer was shot at during a routine traffic stop and dumped his mag at the suspect while backing <.....> up to some cover. Adrenaline and fear changes everything no matter how experienced you think you are. Just a thought.

[flyingdeserteagle]

as my eyesight worstens I find myself prefering .45 over my beloved 9mm.

easier to see the holes in the target and easier when reloading

To the OP, follow your heart, if you want to simplify, then have 1 caliber only. As your 9mm is a Sig229, I usge you to keep it if you can.

[psyopspec]

Has anyone considered the ability to lay down Suppressive fire with a 9mm because of its large magazine capacity?

This one of things crew-served weapons are good for. While your differentiating it from "spray and pray" is correct, for the purposes of civilian CCW (which will be mostly urban), it can still result in the same outcome: Dead bystanders.

[cleetus03]

"Some might consider suppressive fire as “Spray and pray”, thinking that all rounds should hit the target and if some don’t then it means that you need more time at the range. Those same people will might tell you that they intend to use bolt action rifles as defensive rifles, making each shot count, without ever missing their target, one shot one kill. I don’t agree with this. One shot one kill is ok for the majority of self defense situations, but people with larger threat levels than others should have other alternatives."

"Suppressive fire is possible if you have a high capacity pistol which most wonder 9's are. I wouldn’t doubt on using such a tactic if it serves my purposes, or if it buys me time to get out of there. Also keep in mind that criminals are cowards and therefore attack in groups. The defender should be able to face more than just one attacker. Getting into a gunfight with two or three armed men while packing a 7rd .45 is rather hard to deal with. A high capacity pistol can load about 15 or 19 rounds, and that can certainly make a difference in a gunfight where you are outnumbered."


This is just one of the often unspoken attributes Wonder 9's "possess"

[Glockman17366]

It's your money, so do what you want to do.

I'm a 9mm fan. Had .45 1911's and still own one, but for self defense, I prefer 9 mm for semi-autos. Now, that has as much to do with my chosen platform, Glocks, as it does with the caliber.

[JSmith]

Sell My 9mm and Go All Out with .45. What do People Think?

I think you done good.

Let's face it, guys. The 9mm is, well, ... it's European, that's what it is.

I drive a Swedish car, and my electronics are Japanese, but my firearms have always been American - S&Ws and Colts - with the sole exception of a Webley .455 I owned for a while, back in the late 70s.

[cleetus03]

My oh my, it is 2009 and both forces in the War of 9mm vs .45 have yet to breakthrough the stalemate of their vicious campaign towards victory!

[4Freedom]

Personally, I think you are going the wrong way. Until you can shoot little tiny groups and shoot multiple magazines full of cartridges on a small target at 20 yds then you are fixated too much on caliber and you need to practice your shooting. Once you can hit where you are shooting without fail, it won't matter so much what caliber you are using.


As far as shooting is concerned, I am equally good with the Wonder 9 or One-Shot Dropper .45.. LOL.. Actually the 9mm is a bit tougher to shoot, because I always have to think a bit more what I am doing, since the gun tends to snap a bit. Once I get the mind control correct, I am shooting tight groups with that Sig. However, with the .45, I point, aim and hit. I am a glutton for punishment and dont mind the loud explosion and pressure it puts on my hand. Even, I love shooting it one handed for more fun :D. I think in a stressful situaiton, I have a lot easier time hitting the target with the .45..

As far as the guy who says the 9mm is better for taking out a group, I like to see some evidence of that. First of all, what good is the extra 5-9 rounds of my 9mm versus a .45 if I am nervous and I hit the guy 4 times and he still is coming after me. If I flatten the guy on round 1, most likely the other guys won't want to be next. I just don't see how you will have time to unload 19 rounds on a group of guys anyway, if you are getting jumped. If they are far enough away, I would think you would then easily have time to reload ur mags or dump in a speed loader even.


Anyhow, this discussion has penetrated the deepest dimensions of my mind and I am pondering if I should keep the SIg 9mm or go all out with .45. I have also considered the .357, 10mm and .44 route to the .45, but seeing that I have a .45 and lot of .45 ammo, I would like to consolidate my .45 stash and not have to worry about maintaining to differnet types of guns and ammo. Some say buy two S&W M&Ps , well I rahter not.. I just really think the H&K 45 is very snazzy, fits like a glove in my hand and I am in love with it; I will pursue it if I get rid of my Sig. I do plan on getting a .44 for my backwoods hiking this summer and was also thinking of getting rid of the 9mm to fund this purchase, money is tight.

One reason I may keep my 9 is that I got a lot of ammo for it and seeing how hard and expensive it is to get ammo right now, maybe it be more rational to keep it. The price I paid for my .45 ammo two months ago has gone up considerably and almost nobody I can find even sells .45 or 9mm ammo anymore :eek:.

[hso]

10mm!

or

Perhaps it would be best to quit fixating on equipment and spend some time and money on professional training and range time so you can make your hits count.

[BHPshooter]

Wow. We'd better check the altitude of this thread -- it's FULL of HOT AIR.

We are two years short of the .45 ACP having 100 years of documentation. No one has proven any sidearm to be a superior man stopper in that time.

FWIW, the .45 ACP has been around since 1905, making it 104 years old.

I do not own a 9mm Parabellum. I do not own a .40 S&W or a 10mm. I have two shelves lined with pistols chambered in .45 ACP. I'll never drink the 9mm Kool Aid again. Even the FBI figured out it will get you killed.

Yes, because the caliber of their guns was the reason why the FBI royally screwed the pooch in Miami. What it boils down to is this: The Feeb botched it bad, and having a bigger hole in the end of their pistols wouldn't have saved them.

:rolleyes: There's always a hardware solution to a software problem.

*sigh*
Wes

[AllAmerican]

I love caliber wars because they show the ignorance of many of the folks posting.

[jackdanson]

TO disable a threat in home defense situation or in urban scenario, which order would you choose between the three calibers:
9mm, .44 and .45

.44,.45,9mm That is by no means the "whole story" though.

I only read the OP, not others, so I might repeat what they say. This is all typical gun guy repeated arguments over and over, it's ridiculous. Any of these calibers is sufficient for defense. The "bigger is better" argument has some truth to it, but everyone knows shot placement matters more than "energy". Keep in mind, many of the same guys that say "oooh you need a .357, it kills instantly" are the same guys that say the .30 carbine is worthless and will bounce off of a frozen jacket. (.357 and .30 carbine are balistically very similar)

The .45 is the ultimate killing machine, but a .223 is insufficient for a military arm. (ignore the fact that a .223 has the same amount of energy at 500 yards that a .45 does point blank)

Stick with what you like and what you feel comfortable with... bigger doesn't hurt. I'll stick with my 9's....

[James T Thomas]

I would keep the 9mm, and go with the 45 for most occasions.

Perhaps the 9mm might be the only ammunition you have available; under some certain circumstances. Perhaps a remote occurence, but none the less,
the 9mm is a universal cartridge.

Then too, you may just find your wife, daughter, son, or girlfriend prefers the somewhat milder 9mm. Sometime later in your life.

And also, what ever you would receive for the 9mm, I would think that down the road, it's value would increase.

It is good to have a second gun too. Just ask the "battery" collectors here in THR.

[Tropical Buzz]

Why does the "little" .357 Magnum (same "size" as the 9mm) out perform the "bigger" (by less than 1/10th of an inch, mind you!!!;)) .45 in every ballistic category imaginable - including the legendary "one shot stop"???

[BullitHolz]

Muzzle velocity?

[Tropical Buzz]

Correct - thank you. Plus superior sectional density of the projectile. It's NOT about size folks, when you're comparing bullets that differ by a relatively miniscule amount compared to the size of the organism being shot. In the elasticity of flesh, the permanent size of the wound channels actually differs by even less than difference in size of the bullets, expanded or not.
The .45 ACP is a great and venerable round, but it is not the be all and end all simply because it is a wee bit bigger. Otherwise we'd be using it instead of 300 Winchester magnums for punching "bigger holes" in moose..:D

[ArmedBear]

Otherwise we'd be using it instead of 300 Winchester magnums for punching "bigger holes" in moose..

The slow-moving, heavy .45-70 works GREAT on large game. It can be a PITA to hit a distant target with, though. The .300 WinMag offers a flat trajectory, not better performance on large game.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Muzzle velocity is not the end-all, either.

You see, you're thinking in two dimensions, but bullets work in four. Bullets also weigh something, and they move in certain ways in time. .45" may not be that much bigger than .35", but the bullets are a LOT heavier, and they can plow through in a very different way.

Heavy, slow bullets, or light fast ones, can work -- for different reasons. Light, slow ones, not so much, and even light, fast ones have limitations. You don't see too many people hunting moose with a .22-250, either.

The .357's "one shot stop" stats are a function of its use, as well. No doubt a good .44 Magnum would be even more effective, but it doesn't get used for self-defense much.

There's a lot to this.

[Tropical Buzz]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Muzzle velocity is not the end-all, either.

Precisely. I am only addressing the "bigger is better" issue as relates to the .45 vs. 9mm debate. I never said velocity is everything. It is important though and I have always maintained that a variety of factors, including caliber, velocity, weight, sectional density and penetration work together to determine the terminal effects of a given bullet against a given part of a given target. The difference in "size" alone as repeated by the .45 camp is not a significant enough factor in the context of this argument.

BTW the 300 mag was thrown in to illustrate that a big velocity increase can easily overcome a minor size advantage; as well an (unsuccessful?) attempt to poke fun at the use of extreme examples by others - bowling ball, flying ashtray, etc.

The .357's "one shot stop" stats are a function of its use, as well. No doubt a good .44 Magnum would be even more effective, but it doesn't get used for self-defense much.

There's a lot to this.

I don't buy into the "one shot stop" index either - hence the word "legendary" in my post. As you correctly state - there's a lot to this. There are also many variables from situation to situation and I maintain my position that typical, high quality .45 ACP and 9mm cartridges are so close in actual ballistic performance that placement, accuracy and follow up shots are far more important than the mere "size" of the bullet.

[skeeter_08]

IMHO, .45 acp is a better defensive caliber than 9mm, however I would never give up my niners, and I still regret selling my own P228, but if I just had to give up something like a Sig P229 Elite as well as all my 9mm ammo and then replace it with either a 1911 or an HK45, these and the P220 are all real good .45acp handguns, especially if you have a good store of 45 ammo, so go for it! - skeeter_08

[ArmedBear]

I maintain my position that typical, high quality .45 ACP and 9mm cartridges are so close in actual ballistic performance that placement, accuracy and follow up shots are far more important than the mere "size" of the bullet.

And I maintain my position that you are thinking too much of ballistic gelatin, and not enough about the real world.

In the real world, doubling the bullet weight means a hell of a lot. Raising the velocity a little bit doesn't. The real world includes odd angles, leather jackets, bone, amphetamines, etc.

All other things being equal, the modern 9mm is not the equal of the modern .45 ACP in terms of how a given shot will affect a target.

You can argue that the modern 9mm is as good as the .45 ACP of WW II and you'd likely be right. You can argue that the 9mm is good enough for self-defense, and in most cases, you'd likely be right.

But a single .45 HST round is still going to do significantly more to stop an attacker than a single 9mm HST round -- and the .45" vs. .35" comparison does not represent that reality.

The correct statement that the modern 9mm can be quite effective in a self-defense role has somehow morphed into the belief that it's the equal of the modern .45 ACP. This isn't so.

[JohnnyOrygun]

As Kwanger pointed out, the problem with the 9mm in Military use isn't the caliber, its the ammo type. All our military is allowed to use is FMJ, 9mm hole in and a 9mm hole out. With the those kind of constraints I would also choose 45ACP, but as a civilian I am allowed to use HP's and I have them for both my 9mm and 45acp. Variety is the spice of life and it only makes sense to diversify, so I also have 38/357 and 22. I love my 45, but is much cheaper to shoot 9mm for plinking and practice. One of these days I will get in to reloading, but not now... other more pressing issues.

I really recommend keeping your 9mm and 45, just chose proper hollow points for self defense use.

YMMV and IMHO
JohnnyOrygun

[BullitHolz]

And to take it all a bit farther....

Handgun cartridges are anemic anyway in the real world, especially compared to rifle or shotgun performance.

I watch that show "Gangland" on the History channel and every week they do an interview with some of the street punks in prison. ALL of these guys have been shot multiple times, usually with 9MM weapons, and survived to fight again and again. Heck most of them will tell the tale and then show off their scars for the camera. One guy had been hit 19 times in his 23 scummy years.

Every time the story is the same, they start shooting each other and the rounds are flying everywhere, virtually no aiming at the target is being done. In most of these type of encounters are where gang members are trying to kill each other, it's obvious that virtually none of them know anything about guns or marksmanship and they weild their weapons accordingly, spray and pray. The high capacity 9MM, it seems, was practically made for these idiots.

My point is, there is NO substitute for accuracy and quality ammo. If it was solely about the chosen caliber or the gun there would be far fewer gang members walking our city streets and eating our prison food these days.

Just imagine what the world would look like if they were all using Garands on each other instead of Glocks.

[ArmedBear]

Just imagine what the world would look like if they were all using Garands on each other instead of Glocks.

Ever see "rounds expended per kill" stats for WW II?

[BullitHolz]

good point but you can't really walk up to somebody with a Garand and get the drop on them like you can with a Glock now can you?

[ArmedBear]

Harder to shoot a Garand while holding it sideways.:D

[Tropical Buzz]

But a single .45 HST round is still going to do significantly more to stop an attacker than a single 9mm HST round

Like what, exactly? Knock him off his feet? Hydrostatic shock? Thunderbolt from heaven? Not, not and not - sorry. If you are talking about penetration, the 9mm actually penetrates just as well and in some cases even better. Does the .45 "smack" the target harder? Yes, but not nearly enough so to do any damage or to even push a man one step backwards. The tales about Japanese soldiers spinning and doing back flips in the Pacific theater are, well... you get my point.

-- and the .45" vs. .35" comparison does not represent that reality.
Why - because it doesnt support your argument? It is generally accepted that the lighter, smaller and faster .357 magnum delivers superior real world ballistic performance to the heavier, bigger and slower .45 ACP.
Remember, I am only taking issue with the "bigger is better" mentality - NOT championing the 9mm over the .45.
My main point is that both calibers are perfectly adequate (as far as handguns go) for personal defence and any additional magical properties surrounding the "over .40" myth are bragging rights and fluff.
The majority of shootings here are done with .45's and 9mm's and a close friend who worked on autopsies for many years says that they used to make each other try and ID the caliber that did the deed by examining the wound. Guess what? They could usually tell HP from ball, but caliber? Forget it. The difference is largely indistinguishable and the person with the holes in him really didn't give a hoot either way.

There's just way too much emotion and rigid polarization in this debate and we're not accomplishing much here, so I respectfully bow out. Take care.:)

[Ridgerunner665]

Well...something about "bigger" is better.

The 45acp stops deer WAAAAY better than 9mm (pretty much the same shot placement, range, size of deer, and more than 1 test subject, etc.)

The 45 penetrated the shoulder blades better (both sides)...but that is more a function of momentum and sectional density than it is "caliber".

Push a 230 grain .355 caliber bullet to 850 fps and see what happens.

[Ridgerunner665]

Answer...energy is the same.
Momentum is the same.
Taylor KO factor is different...9 for the 9mm, 12 for the 45acp.

Diameter does matter...not quite as much as shot placement, but diameter does matter.

[timberbeast63]

I would concede that 45ACP and 40S&W are going to do a better job, round for round, than 9mm when the bullet hits.

That being said, if you like shooting a 38spl or 9mm, can better handle it, and practice with it more, than that is what you should use and feel comfortable. If you don't like a gun, you won't practice with it a lot and at a critical momemt, you might fail to use it properly.

I'd rather shoot and hit a BG with a 9 than shoot and miss with a 45ACP or 44mag.

1. Have a gun. 2. Know how to use it well. 3. Long guns are better, but rule #1 sometimes means a handgun. 4. Larger calibers are better, but rule #2 applies.

If you like 45s and are proficient, then you are well prepared!

[altitude_19]

Here are the rules I live by:
1.) Carry a weapon you shoot well. If you shoot several equally well, it never hurts to have a backup (the fact that you have one good gun does not preclude you from owning a second). Decide which one to carry based on the following:
2.) Carry your most reliable, lightest, and probably lowest capacity weapons AS A MINIMUM. The most important thing is to HAVE A RELIABLE GUN. Low capacity=simple mechanism=reliable. Lightweight=more fun to carry=will at least HAVE A GUN when trouble comes a callin'. Low threat means you can carry low-capacity (regular errands around town and the like).
3.) Defensive iron (for muggers and the like) should use rounds that avoid over-penetration (45 ACP excells at CONTROLLED penetration) and must be reliable above ALL ELSE (capacity/weapon complexity is inversely proportional to reliability).
4.) Carry high-capacity for extended engagements. Hopefully, you'll never need it, but capacity is CRUCIAL in true combat environments. The meanest cartridge won't make a lick of difference if you are out of them after 7 rounds and a riot is in progress.
Given the above, one can produce this catharsis:
45 ACP: Carry in crowded areas (controlled penetration) where there is a limited threat (low capacity) and the most important thing is making sure youre assailant knows he has been shot (hard not to notice with 230 grains of lead diplomacy hitting you in the sternum).
9mm: Carry in general combat or times of civil unrest when you anticipate heavy engagement (running out of ammo is probable with lower capacity weapons) and over penetration is not a concern (controllable with good projectiles, but still more likely with 9mm than 45).
44 Mag: Recoil is brisk to say the least, so I'd only recommend this in a heavy gun, which you won't likely enjoy carrying. Moreover, magnum rounds CAN overpenetrate (depending on your projectile, this can be hard to mitigate at magnum velocities). 44 special can be used and is a fine defensive cartridge, but is also somewhat less plentiful than 45 ACP and 9mm. I recommend 44 mag for a home defense cartridge if you have no reason to concern yourself with overpenetration (live alone/isolated area), but not for a carry weapon.

[model of 1905]

Keep your 9x19 and buy the 45. I'm not selling anything that has self defense capability.

[jimparks]

If you want to shoot once and get the job done, shoot the 230 gr round ball.

[christcorp]

There's a big difference between law enforcement/military and the civilian public when it comes to guns. Even though the military and LE has become a lot more technologically advanced, field fighting with handguns and rifles is still set up usually against multiple attackers, it's very offensive in nature, and killing the opponent is not actually the number 1 priority. Matter of fact, injuring the opponent is also very beneficial. An injured person takes another person out of the battle to assist them, where a dead person just gets a quick look at.

But a civilian in a traditional self/home defense is not going up against 5-10 bad guys. You're not running into heavy engagement. You're not going to be in a shoot-out. This is not a "Die Hard" movie. Choose the gun you like to shoot, feels good, is comfortable on recoil, quality, reliability, etc... DON'T choose the caliber and definitely don't choose based on the number of rounds the magazine carries. If you learn how to shoot, the traditional 6 round revolver or 7-8 round semi-auto will work just fine for what your objective is: "The stop a threat on you". And in the warmer months when people aren't wearing thick or layered clothing, and concealing is a little more difficult, I feel totally safe and protected carrying a 32 auto. In the colder months, where I'm wearing coats, and bad guys are wearing more layers of clothing as well as coats, I carry a SigSauer P220 45acp. Both will do what I need them to do. Reduce the threat.

So, while I don't have any need for a 9mm, 40sw, 10mm, or any other in between round, a person should pick what they want for self defense based on the gun itself and how it fits you. Caliber is 2nd choice and magazine capacity is LAST choice. If you don't shoot often to keep up practice, then for defensive purposes, you should carry a revolver. I'm not a fan of using tiny guns for large calibers. If you want a 45acp, shoot it in a Sig P220 or a 1911A1. If you want a 9mm, you can go smaller. If you want a small carry, then get a 380 or 32auto. Again, your needs are not the same as the military or law enforcement. You aren't shooting gangs of people, and if there is a societal break down, you should be avoiding populated areas. In other words, don't pull a Rodney King and be on the streets during riots. Just pick the gun you like shooting the best. They will ALL do what you need them to for self defense. Again, this isn't a Die Hard movie.

[verdun59]

Wow I love the never ending .9mm vs .45acp debates, BUT I keep wondering why .380 ammo is the hardest to find these days.....maybe some people are not practicing what they preach....

[christcorp]

380 and 9mm can be loaded using basically the same dies; changing the bullet seating and crimping. At the manufacturer level, I believe it would be even simpler in their mass production setup. I would not be surprised if manufacturers have reduced their 380 production to catch up on their 9mm requirements. Especially for military and law enforcement contracts. Just a thought/theory.

[verdun59]

christcorp,
I think that is an interesting theory and may well be the fact; on the other hand I believe there are a whole gaggle of people who are carrying .380 around in their pockets ....

[LightningJoe]

All the handgun calibers are poor stoppers when the BG is unaffected by fear and demoralization. There may be a difference between .45 Auto and 9mm, but if so it's undetectable. The greater capacity offered by 9mm vs .45 may or may not be of value, but it's a consideration.

[ROBBY.1911]

i went out and bought a glock 30. i slicked up the trigger, did the normal dress-up items and bought two G21 magazines. i got spacers for the G21 mags, and i now have a 13+1 round, mid-size pistol, whose accuracy is scary good and it will feed ANYTHING! it doesn't matter. i rounded up all my loose exotic personal defense rounds and it fed them all without a hiccup. i have settled on federal 185 gr match for carry, and wolf 230 gr for run and gun. why match for carry? i also use it for IDPA matches, for the moment. i used to shoot winchester white box 185 gr BEB with a recoil reducer in my G21. the G30 doesn't need a recoil reducer. it's really an amazing pistol, in all ways.

[cyclopsshooter]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=452760

[hankdatank1362]

Much like any other caliber war, there is more DISinformation here that it should be criminal.

Bullets bouncing off windshields, and 8 rounds of .40S&W to kill a deer where .45GAP did it in one?

It's true, it's true, I heard it from a guy I know who is a cop, and they have to shoot at bad guys all the time, despite the fact that the department averages less than one officer-involved shooting a year!

[inSight-NEO]

You need a 5" 1911 to get the knock down power you desire.

Im somewhat dubious about this statement. If you have close to a 5" barrel, go with 230 grain; when closer to or less than a 4" barrel, try using 185 or 200/200+P. Out of my 4" XD, I like the Gold Dot LE 200+P JHP, but find that the Federal LE 185s "handle" better.

Now, back to the OPs dilemma...

I like the 9mm for its capacity potential (somewhat defeated however when dealing with many compact variants), relatively light recoil and the fact that 9mm rounds are relatively inexpensive compared to most. But, when comparing round to round, I prefer the .45 ACP as I truly believe it has superior "stopping" power vs. the 9mm; Notice I said "stopping" power...not "killing" power.

Now, its true that a hit with a 9mm weapon is better than a miss with a .45 ACP weapon. But, this saying applies to almost any situation really, regardless of caliber. However, assuming the necessary level of skill, a solid hit with a .45 ACP would instill a bit more confidence (for myself at least) vs. a solid hit when using a 9mm. This increases by a certain percentage when .45 ACP +P loads enter the equation.

Now, there is the .357 Magnum (full house 125 grain) round to consider as an equally effective man-stopper (not to mention the .44 Mag). But, for maximum stopping power out of a handgun, while still maintaining necessary control for rapid firing, I believe the .45 ACP to be among the best..if not the best. If all else fails, I then gravitate towards the 12 ga. shotgun. But, this weapon is not always the most "practical" choice, regardless of its effectiveness.

In terms of capacity (for HD), anything above 8-10 rounds is something I consider mute as I generally keep more than one loaded mag. Besides, if a close range, violent encounter cannot be assuaged within 10 rounds, I can most likely consider myself on the bad end of things at that point.

Also, as has been mentioned before, I think .45 ACP is simply much more fun to shoot vs. the 9mm.

With all of this in mind, to answer you "order of things" question, I would go .45 ACP, 9mm. .44 Mag. My order is only based on effectiveness combined with control, rather than focusing on a particular round or its capacity potential. I would have chosen the .44 Mag as my second choice but I feel that, while certainly powerful, the control just is not there (for me at least) when using full house loads, thus rendering its overall effectiveness (practically speaking) as less than ideal. Of course, I am merely speaking of "typical" HD ranges and thus, considering the most "effective" and "practical" weapon out of these 3 which would accommodate such a range variable.

[golden]

Several posters have mentioned the .44 magnum for stopping power. It's record does not reflect this power. A full power .44 magnum is much more likely to over penetrate and take all that energy with it.

The .357 magnum is much more effective for self defense. The 125 grain JHP bullet expands rapidly and uses all its energy inside the target. It rarely over penetrates the target. That is why it has a better stopping power history than the .44 magnum or .45ACP.

Jim

[Howard B]

Proper placement is always of greater importance than the size of the projectile. High center mass with a 9 works better than a hit in the butt with a 45. Just my $.02.

[ClickClickD'oh]

Ok real life. On the job I have had to put down many many many deer that have been hit by cars. When I started we had 357 mag's. 1 or 2 shots is all it took to completely kill the deer, with no movement.
Then we had 40 cal's. It was normal to shoot 7 or 8 rounds. (all the guys agree the 40 sucks to Incapacitate a deer.) (sorry my only comparison is a deer).

What?

We kill wounded deer with a single shot from a Walther P22...

Do I want to know what you guys are doing to those deer?

[Coltman 77]

Great discussion and opinions in this thread. :)

The .45acp vs. 9mm debate continues and it's always interesting.

Here is a link with some scientific research behind it that ya'll might enjoy:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

[marineman]

Keep the 9mm pistols and add the .45's to the collection.

[KenW.]

NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER get rid of a gun. In a matter of time you or a member of your fammily wish you hadn't.

My Grandad almost got rid of his 1942 NAZI hi-power. Now it MINE!

[Oro]

NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER get rid of a gun.

Well, never get rid of a good gun. I'll never regret the Glock 23 or the Beretta 21a I sold for good cash money.

A 9mm 1911 is like a Corvette with a 6-cylinder engine...

Now with that statement, I am in total accord...

[KenW.]

The discerning handgun owner wouldn't start out owning a "bad" gun.

My Grandad with the NAZI Hi- ower lived in New York state. He kept it despite NY's gun laws, now my 16 year old shoots it quite well.

[Isher]

Both.

Presently adding a CZ 97b in .45 ACP

To the 9mm's in the house.

Gotta love those 10 round mags.

To purely bastardize the old phrase

"Prior proper placement

Prevents piss-poor performance."

isher

[Waibaddayu]

I got rid of a SIG P-228 about 3 years ago, and I'm still regretting it! I kept my Glock G-22, thinking that was all I needed. Well, as you all know, when the gun bug bites, it can get real bad! After each new purchase, I still remember that P-228, especially when I only paid $499 NIB! I've since gotten a SA XD-45 Tactical 2-tone, Glock G-19 (Austrian marked), Kimber Custom II, SIG Mosquito Sport, SIG P-6, and a Walther P-22. I am currently looking for a CPO SIG P-228 (earlier model with no rails), to fill that "void". I almost forgot my Kel-Tec P-11. I love to shoot all of my guns and I do shoot all of them regularly. I maintain a stock of at least 2000 rounds for each caliber, and yes. I am a "hoarder", but I USE my ammo, not just stock for SHTF. I vowed never to let another gun leave my collection, and I always advise friends and family to do the same. Keep what you got and just add to your collection. :banghead:

[bukijin]

I wouldn't sell a good gun. On the other hand, I would sell guns that I regreted buying to buy a good gun instead. Calibre wars :banghead:

[CZ223]

so far, but this is my recomendation. Sorry, if someone has already said it. If you don't feel comfortable with the 9mm, don't carry it. Sell it if you like. You should have confidence in the gun that you carry. If only the 45 works for you, then that is what you should carry. What you must remember is that a poorly placed 45 will do no better than a 9mm. There are no magic bullets. On a personal note, up until recently I have not had good luck with factory 1911's. If you choose a 1911, wring it out thoroughly. A gun that doesn't feed reliably is no more than a hammer.

I just went back and read a few more of the responces as well as your original post. After having shot in several different types of competition over the last 20 years, I have made and seen just about all the mistakes you can imagine, and some you never even thought of. Without detailing all of those mistakes, one of the most common occured when people switched from one platform to another. If you ever have to use your weapon in self defense, you want it to be second nature. For this reason, I long ago decided that all of my SD guns must operate the same way. My point is that if you buy another 45 it should at least operate the same way as the one you already have. It would be even better if it were the same model. I will give you one quick example. At one point I was shooting only cowboy action and I was shooting a lot. One day I decided to go to the range and pratice with my Glocks. I drew my gun as I normally would, then realized my left hand thumb was trying to cock the hammer that wasn't there. Fortunately my brain caught up with my body before I pulled the trigger.

[m2steven]

I spoke with a Ranger currently on small leave from Iraq at my class reunion yesterday. He said that 45, 9mm - it didn't matter. you could lay down cover fire with either. However, he's shooting his rifle unless he's out of ammo. The only thing i could pin him down to was "you don't want to be out of bullets".

[hicksdm]

Sold my 9mm's a few years ago and have not looked back. I stuck with the 38/357 revolvers and could not be happier. Leave them load with 38 in the house and switch to the 357 when out in the concrete jungle. This has given me one platform to learn with, easier to stock up with the same caliber, etc. Even though variety is the spice of life I prefer one platform and stick to it.

[hk lover]

one should think about wshtf that maybe having more than one choice would be a good thing.suppose that you have several 45's and no ammo is to be found.i personally keep ammo for guns i dont even own because barter may become a very important tool in the future.i was also one that for a while that caliber commonality was a good thing until the current shortage came up and now i own all the major weapons and calibers.i can only imagine that ihave all one calier, and no ammo.

[Ed Ames]

I would think the recent ammo shortages would've taught people that diversity is a survival trait.

When things get tight you don't want to be staring at the last box of ammo on a store shelf, thinking, "man I wish I hadn't sold my ________, 'cuz without it that ammo is useless to me."

I wouldn't be selling off all of anything myself. I might not keep the nicest of something but I wouldn't go to zero

As for rangers... their opinions are based on coordinated group fighting techniques that are irrelevant to most of us, ergo their opinions are irrelevant to most of us.

[psyopspec]

I spoke with a Ranger currently on small leave from Iraq at my class reunion yesterday. He said that 45, 9mm - it didn't matter.

Did you advise him that 9mm will bounce off a windshield?

[Texshooter]

Well, if .45 is not the way to go (we are talking about defending your life here), then how could 9mm be better?

It can't be given almost all the civilian involved encounters I have found to be true, respecting distance, number of rounds discharged, etc.

Your choice to live with.

[30mag]

Get a 12-gauge if you are REALLY worried about inadequate stopping power.
Otherwise:
.44
.357
.45
9mm

Oh, you didn't ask about the .357?

[Radio]

I did read the entire thread and I only can add that I do not trust a semi-auto as a primary defensive weapon. I do carry a .45 as a backup, Glock 30, but my primary is a S&W 640 in .357 that always goes bang! It's all about your own personal level of comfort. Mine is a pre lock revolver first.

[BK]

Got both. Like both. Keep'n both.

[BHPshooter]

380 and 9mm can be loaded using basically the same dies

Christcorp, I certainly hope you're not attempting this -- 9mm and 380 CANNOT be reloaded using the same dies. The cases are VERY different.

The 9mm is a tapered case, the .380 is a straight-wall case.

If you are foolish enough to attempt this, at best you'll get some really unreliable reloads; At worst, you and any bystanders could suffer some really unpleasant damage.

Wes :uhoh:

[zxcvbob]

Sell My 9mm and Go All Out with .45. What do People Think?
I think you should keep your 9mm, and buy a .45. (preferably a .45 Colt rather than ACP) HTH :D

[30mag]

I did read the entire thread and I only can add that I do not trust a semi-auto as a primary defensive weapon. I do carry a .45 as a backup, Glock 30, but my primary is a S&W 640 in .357 that always goes bang! It's all about your own personal level of comfort. Mine is a pre lock revolver first.

Why would you ever use a gun you don't trust as a primary as a backup?

[4Freedom]

Been a while since I read the thread I started a long time ago. Well, I will say to keep people updated, I just purchased a S&W 629 44 mag for my birthday and if anything I will sell the 9mm and the ammo and stock up on 44 mag, assuming I can get it. I think 45ACP and 44 mag/44spl are good combination. However, to let everyone know I decided to keep my 9mm and not sell it or the ammo. The ammo is scarce for these guns and for the price I bought the ammo, its worth keeping it as a more powerful plinker than nothing else. Its really hard to sell a pretty gun that shoots such tight groups, I have to admit.

[wickedsprint]

I'm strongly considering this myself. I have 3 9mms that would all sell easily if I decide to. Then the issue becomes..how many .45s do I want?

I have a really nice series 80 that is a keeper, and a Glock 21 that is perfect for camping duty...but being a 1911 afficiando, I'll also want something without the FPS of the series 80..so likely one of their 70/WWI repros.

[one45auto]

I'm thinking of doing precisely the opposite, ditching my .45 ACP and sticking with the Glock 19. The big Colt is sweet, but it's one heck of a picky eater and jams easily (and regularly) with certain brands of ammo. I'm also not about to spend money I don't have making an unreliable gun reliable through endless refinements when I've got the Glock which digests everything I feed it and has never failed me yet. I also shoot the Glock better and it's lighter and feels more comfortable in the hand. Besides, when all is said and done a hit with a 9mm is better than a miss with a .45ACP and I'm one of those people who put faith in accuracy rather than caliber.

[psyopspec]

Been a while since I read the thread I started a long time ago. Well, I will say to keep people updated, I just purchased a S&W 629 44 mag for my birthday and if anything I will sell the 9mm and the ammo and stock up on 44 mag, assuming I can get it. I think 45ACP and 44 mag/44spl are good combination. However, to let everyone know I decided to keep my 9mm and not sell it or the ammo. The ammo is scarce for these guns and for the price I bought the ammo, its worth keeping it as a more powerful plinker than nothing else. Its really hard to sell a pretty gun that shoots such tight groups, I have to admit.

Good call!

[Rob P.]

I've heard the 9mm vs. .45 debate so much it makes my ears hurt.

Folks, you have to start thinking instead of just parroting the BS that is being peddled to you in order to get you to buy something.

MILITARY ball ammo is NOT DESIGNED for one-shot-one kill. It is designed to WOUND because a wounded trooper takes more manpower to care for than a dead trooper does.

Self defense ammo is designed for a different purpose and that purpose is NOT to "wound."

Statistics from one will not necessarily fit the bill for the other.

IMO, if you want good defensive weapon, pick the one that you can shoot accurately under stress. Then find ammo that is designed for self defense and proper penetration for that weapon. If tab A and slot B above don't fit, then find a different weapon until you get both parts aligned and assembled.

9mm is more than sufficient for self defense. .45 and .357 are also good self defense calibers. IMO you don't need anything larger or smaller as these 3 calibers come in packages that can easily be concealed on just about anyone's person.

[model of 1905]

My EDC now is a 1911 in 45 ACP. When I carry two (often) my secondary is a PM9. If I need to deep conceal when carrying a 1911 is not practical, its just the PM9 and I still feel confident that I am not underarmed. But, if hypothetically I had to choose between 9x19mm or .45ACP, it's a no-brainer. Give me the 45.

I prefer .357 sig to 9mm, dont and wont own a .40 S&W (just dont see the need). I may someday own a 1911 in 10mm. Love my XDm 9. I have a CW9 for sale. None of my 45s are.

For home defense, my handguns are for getting me to my shotguns. If I could conceal carry my M4 carbine, it would replace them all.:uhoh:

[Cards81fan]

've spent thousands of dollars on training (and will drop at least another $700 on training in June). Ammo is the least expensive part of my shooting.

I have a 1911 that cost me close to $3,000. The holster cost another $130 and the mag pouch was another $65. I just picked up 10, 10-round 1911 mags for a couple hundred. I rarely buy grips for under $100.

Even if ammo was $50 a box it would still be the cheapest part of shooting.

I respectably disagree. Shooting can be expensive, but those numbers are just excessive.

I have a used, pawn shop Springfield XD in .40 S&W I purchased for one tenth the cost of your .45. That included an serviceable OWB holster. If I want a custom grip, it'd cost me about $8.95 (http://www.topgunsupply.com/hogue-handall-universal-rubber-grip-sleeve-black.html). I can add additional calibers to my same gun, .357 SIG and 9mm, at one-time costs of $159.99 (http://www.efkfiredragon.com/proddetail.php?prod=XDS357SBC) and $159.99 plus a magazin (http://www.efkfiredragon.com/proddetail.php?prod=XDS9SBC)e, respectively.

Ammo costs me $15 a box after tax, give or take, for Blazer from Wal*Mart. I buy a $26 new box or two of Speer a year, just to run the old through the gun. If I shoot with any regularity, the ammunition is the most expensive cost to the the hobby.

Not everyone can can afford that type of money on a firearm. Even those who can choose not to for various reasons. If you and I were to shoot competitively and compare scores, you'd probably win. I'm confident the gun would not be the limiter.

[Deanimator]

MILITARY ball ammo is NOT DESIGNED for one-shot-one kill. It is designed to WOUND because a wounded trooper takes more manpower to care for than a dead trooper does.
NO, it's NOT.

Speaking of thinking, if what you say were the truth, why doesn't the military teach its personnel to SHOOT to wound? I never saw it in the Army, neither has anyone I've ever known who was in the Marines, Navy or Air Force. And how many of YOUR troops does it take to carry YOU after you've wounded an enemy soldier who was capable of fighting back and wounded YOU in return?

FMJs are used because they penetrate cover better and because of humanitarian concerns. Apparently, you've never heard of the Hague Conventions.

[LightningJoe]

Don't be silly. If 9mm can't do it, neither can .45 Auto.

[augustino]

No question for me, I've done just that.
I a small man, one that strives for peaceful, rational solutions to any disagreements. I hate violence and deplore the thought of one man killing another. It sickens me and I PRAY that this day will never enter into my life.
But unfortunately not everyone feels or thinks this way. So after talking with a few police officers, bondsmen and reading accounts from vets regarding the stopping power of their 9MM issued pistols, I sold my BHP, which I loved and purchased a Glock 30.
Reason for the 30 is reliability, 10 round capacity and a pistol that's RELATIVELY small enough to conceal yet gives me 10 rounds in the mag with 1 in the chamber if I decide to carry chambered.
So yes it's 45 for me but I didn't sell my HK P7 M8 which is brand new. This I feel will gain in value and so I put 4 mags (32 rounds) through it, cleaned ultra clean and back into the original case. It's been there for the last few years. I can't bring myself to sell that "cocker" pistol!

[ElToro]

now im emtionally involved after reading all this.
to the OP
1st, dont sell your guns unless your kids are starving, you will always regret it.

2nd, MY opinion is that almost any premium hollow point in hand is better than ball ammo of the same or bigger caliber ( when comparing 9mm to 40 to 45)

3rd, where i live a CCW is effectively unobtainable, so i dont carry. my home defense guns rotate bewteen a 229R in 40 loaded with speer 165 GD and a 1911 loaded with 230 Winchester ranger, i decided against the +p ranger as the extra recoil for another 75 ft ps doesnt seem worth it.

i picked these 2 rounds becuase of what i have read about them as well as i was able to obtain sufficent quantity at good price that i could test several hundred rounds.

that doesnt mean im going to throw out my .22, .38/357, 10, 44, and 9mm handguns.

if i was going to an insurection, i would proibly take a glock 20 or 21 with as many standard cap mags as possible

[augustino]

Eltoro is 100% correct!
Over the course of time I've sold one or two firearms and to this very day I regret having done so. I sold my BHP and still wish I had it. And this counts for just about every firearm I've ever sold, I to this very day still wish I had them.

But unfortunately my appetite for these engineering masterpieces exceeds my income & budget. Thus sell what I haven't used.

But you're right, I regret having sold each and every one and IF possible I would love to have them all back again. So think about what eltoro said because he's right and I agree with him 100%.

Sell it and you're sure to regret it.

[cityslicker]

The problems with the 9mm 4FREEDOM speaks of are 100% correct. In military form, the 9mm ball ammo is NOT a very good performer, and doing house raids in Iraq, the Berretta is used quite often as a primary weapon. The 45acp ball is a much better choice. That being said! With todays technology and all the HP bullets on the market, I think we can agree that the 9mm will get the job done. But!! (I'll take the 45 any day)

[ElToro]

Augustino- thanks man !

[shiftyer1]

I have 2 9mm's 1 .357 1 .45 1011 and 1 .22 lr revolver. The one that get shot the most is the 22 next is the .45. .357 is next if i can find ammo i love the trigger on the old blackhawk. I'm not sure why I quit firin the .9's but they still find carry duty, on me or in the truck.