.357 LSWC for protection up north


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RB98SS
May 9, 2009, 06:43 PM
Opinions and suggestions please.

I'm in the process of developing a load in .357 for protection against 4 legged predators that I could encounter on my property in northern Minnesota. Mainly black bear and wolf. The purpose is to protect my dog, or God forbid, me or one of my family members. I really don't worry too much about any of us being attacked but my dog is another thing as there are many instances of dogs being taken by wolves.

So anyway, here is what I want to do. I want to load a dozen hard cast 158 gn LSWC's with 2400 powder as I think that powder will fit the bill best.

The bullets I have are Brinell 18 from Missouri Bullet. Here is my question. Can/Should I load the rounds to a point near max even though I know they most likely are not meant to be pushed that hard? I'm not too concerned about leading as they would not be used for my normal shooting/plinking, but I want the best velocity if I run into one of those big Minnesota bruins.

For those that have loads for similar purposes, what did you do?

Thanks, Gary

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ArchAngelCD
May 9, 2009, 06:55 PM
Those are hard bullets and can be driven well over 1200 fps so I'm sure they will be fine up near the top end of the charge range of 2400.

For what you are doing I prefer a gas checked 180gr Hard Cast or Hornady XTP bullet over a stiff charge of Lil'Gun.

rcmodel
May 10, 2009, 12:23 PM
Missouri Bullet plainly says those bullets are suitable for Magnum velocities.
http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=41&category=5&secondary=10&keywords=

(Noticed they also sell Lewis Lead Removers on the same page!)

I would have no reservations loading them over 15.0 grains 2400.

Back in the day, the .357 factory loads used soft-swaged 158 LSWC bullets over more 2400 powder then that.

Leading was severe after just a few rounds, but they were certainly powerful!

rc

GP100man
May 10, 2009, 12:53 PM
i load a 358429 over a helpin of 2400or h110 for the serious stuff!!
2 holes are better than one when it counts!!!

GP100man

ReloaderFred
May 10, 2009, 01:14 PM
I'm with ArchAngelCD on this one. A 180 grain cast gascheck, over Lil'Gun, is one hard hitting bullet. You can probably buy plain base 180 grain bullets, too, which would work for your intended purpose. A heavy for caliber bullet, moving pretty fast, if pretty formidable.

I've seen one black bear taken around here with a 147 grain Winchester 9mm Black Talon from a S&W Model 59 pistol. The bear went about 75 yards before it died, though. Bullet placement is important with any caliber. Only hand grenades will allow for much sighting error.....

Hope this helps.

Fred

Peter M. Eick
May 10, 2009, 01:20 PM
My standard full power 357 magnum load is straight from the lasercast manual.

158 grn lasercast SWC, 15.3 grns (or if I am wimping it 14.5 grns) of 2400 to 1.570 & small pistol primer.

This one will do just about of 1515 in one my 8 3/8" pre-27 and about 1450 in the other 8 3/8" pre-27. One of mine is very slow compared to the other.

Good load, accurate and does not lead.

If you really want to push it get some 180's and a 357max.

Steve C
May 10, 2009, 04:50 PM
Hard cast bullets actually lead less and do well when pushed at full magnum velocities. One needs to remember that lead bullets run faster than jacketed with the same load and you will usually get the same velocity as the same weight jacketed bullet with 1.0 grains less charge when using a slow pistol powder.

For example a 13.0gr load of AA#9 pushes a 158gr Remington bulk JSP out the muzzle of my 6" Colt at 1,289 fps yet on another day I chrono'd 12.3grs of AA#9 behind a 158gr LSCW commercial cast bullet at 1,268 fps from my 4" S&W M66. When using 2400 I use 14.0 and 13.0grs respectively for 158gr jacketed and lead bullets and both these run around 1,250 fps from the 4" S&W. Now my velocities may be a bit higher since I'm in a much warmer climate than Minnesota.

Personally I don't see much advantage to run 158gr solids any faster than standard factory of 1,250 fps or so from a 4" barrel. They'll have plenty of penetration at that velocity and will run around 1,300 to 1,400 from a 6" and 1,600 fps from a carbine.

HANDLOADER
May 10, 2009, 05:47 PM
DO NOT LOAD MY LOAD IT IS VERY DANGEROUS TO DANGEROUS FOR ANY FIRARM ON EARTH MY FIRARMS ARE ALL MADE OF MAGIC AND JOY.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

[Load data removed by moderator]

GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS

Handloader

rcmodel
May 10, 2009, 06:03 PM
Wow!
That one is off the charts!!!
Even the old charts.
Even Elmer Keiths charts!

rc

HANDLOADER
May 10, 2009, 07:48 PM
DO NOT LOAD MY LOAD IT IS VERY DANGEROUS TO DANGEROUS FOR ANY FIRARM ON EARTH MY FIRARMS ARE ALL MADE OF MAGIC AND JOY.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

[removed dangerous load data]

GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS

Handloader

ReloaderFred
May 10, 2009, 08:28 PM
In just glancing at the Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Handbook, page 338, the load suggested would exceed the SAAMI specifications for .357 Magnum by a wide margin.

A load of 11.4 grains of 2400, and a 160 grain bullet (the suggested starting load) produces 20,200 C.U.P. The maximum suggested load of 15.5 grains, with the same bullet, produces 39,400 C.U.P. By adding 2.5 more grains of 2400, that would push the pressure well beyond any other published load pressures in the Lyman Handbook, all of which were pressure tested.

Hope this helps.

Fred

HANDLOADER
May 10, 2009, 08:42 PM
The load data I obtained was from the 48 or 49 lyman cast bullet manual. I reamber this load was for a 90 grain bullet. I just chose to put a 160 grain bullet with it. No problem what so ever. My pressure is in the safe range. The cases extract freely and the primers are not backing out. Thats what I said Bunny bread. Hope it helps

arizona98tj
May 10, 2009, 08:46 PM
......but I want the best velocity if I run into one of those big Minnesota bruins.

While I've never had to shoot a black bear, there is always the possibility that one may have to. As I was growing up in Northern Minnesota, we didn't have nearly the bear population as there seems to be today. Knowing that, I would reserve my .357 for 2 legged predators and use the 12 gauge for the 4 legged variety. Pushing a 1 ounce slug @ 1600 FPS would make me feel a LOT better when sighted in on a "big Minnesota bruin" that isn't intent on running away from me and mine. YMMV

My sisters and I still have a fair amount of property south of Bemidji.
Where is yours at?

RB98SS
May 10, 2009, 09:19 PM
My sisters and I still have a fair amount of property south of Bemidji.
Where is yours at?

Ely.

rbernie
May 10, 2009, 10:09 PM
I've removed the obviously overpressure load data posted by HANDLOADER. It may work in his guns - I am skeptical but I'll stop short of calling foul.

I reamber this load was for a 90 grain bullet. I just chose to put a 160 grain bullet with it.

In the very least, I can state with certainty that if the load cannot come close to being safely duplicated, it shouldn't be published here.

And so it's gone.

Walkalong
May 11, 2009, 08:00 AM
Wow!
That one is off the charts!!!
Yep, and who is Bunny bread? :confused:

GP100man
May 11, 2009, 09:34 AM
time to step up in caliber!!!

GP100man

Quoheleth
May 11, 2009, 10:57 AM
Make sure you check that load before you rely on it for defense.

I was loading that same bullet over AA#5 and had a serious case of leading in both my GP161 and 3" SP101. I did the math using Missouri Bullet's formula to determing correct pressure-to-BHN application, and the AA#5 was WAY over pressure - like needing a BHN of 26 or something.

I since switched to a max load of Titegroup (check Alliant's website - I think it is 5 grains [notes aren't handy]) and it shoots like a dream. They advertise it in the 1100fps range. Recoil is pleasant, shoots flat as a pancake, and is plenty accurate for busting clay pidgeons and dirt clods at 50 yards. I wouldn't hesitate to use it for a small-to-medium game load, but wouldn't PERSONALLY use it in my guns for large animal defense or even hogs or deer.

Midway sells some cast lead bullets that are harder and have a gas-check http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=827283 . I had an invitation for hog hunting last fall, and had it panned out, I was planning on those or Hornady 158XTPs or 180XTPs with AA#7 or #9. You'll be able to get better velocity using one of Hornady's jacketed bullets than Brad's lead.

Let me be clear: I am a big Missouri bullet fan. 95% of all of my bullets are Missouri. PERSONALY I have not been able to drive those .357 Magnum bullets to real "magnum" velocity out of either of my Rugers. I've corresponded with Brad about it and he agreed my math was right. Check it yourself to be certain and then check your gun for leading before trusting your life to it.

On 2nd thought, if bears are not only a real threat but good-sized, I would not even mess with handloaded stuff. Get a box of Doubletap or CorBon's special nasty. Shoot a couple rounds to check POI/POA at various distances. Load it up and carry with those.

Q

Bula
May 11, 2009, 11:24 AM
Am I the only one who's gotten horrible leading (store bought) bevel based LSWC's at mag velocities? I've tried lasercast as well as several other brands and they none of them worked well. My solution was to cast plain based bullets myself. The results were spectacular, my suggestion, the lyman 358429 with a full 2400 load (mine load is from the Lyman Cast manual), It's hard to go wrong with that combo.

GP100man
May 11, 2009, 08:09 PM
most machine cast boolits are undersized & hard, not all but most .

GP100man

novaDAK
May 11, 2009, 08:45 PM
I load 14.4gr 2400 under 158gr cast LSWC as my general purpose .357 load (range use and woods protection). Supposed to give around 1200fps according to my 30 year old Speer loading book.

MasterReloader
May 12, 2009, 05:02 PM
I would go to Buffalobore.com and purchase some of their heavy gas checked loads. They sure do a job on black bears and large hogs, a shoulder hit will shoot completly through either.

rcmodel
May 12, 2009, 05:21 PM
Hey MasterReloader!
Your First post!

But you surely aren't suggesting he buy factory ammo at a Buck.40 a pop?

This is the Handloading Forum you know! :D

rc

243winxb
May 12, 2009, 06:34 PM
but wouldn't PERSONALLY use it in my guns for large animal defense or even hogs or deer. I would reserve my .357 for 2 legged predators On 2nd thought, if bears are not only a real threat but good-sized, I would not even mess with handloaded stuff time to step up in caliber!!! The 357 mag. is not enough gun for bear & wolf if you are in danger . IMO :uhoh:

dwhite
May 12, 2009, 07:09 PM
12 gauge with slugs, and a pocket with some 00 or 0 buckshot rounds. Should definitely get a bear or wolfs attention. I'd shoot a few for sighting/patterning before going into the woods with this just to be sure. It's a little heavier to carry but I'd feel a lot more secure.

All the Best,
D. White

RB98SS
February 19, 2010, 05:38 PM
Well,

This is an older post but here's why I asked. Wolves kill St Bernard in Ely, Mn.

Sad story.

http://www.elyecho.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=2&ArticleID=10204&TM=56882.23

Jeff H
February 19, 2010, 06:26 PM
15gr of 2400 pushing 158gr LSWC or LRNFP. plenty of power.

joneb
February 19, 2010, 11:56 PM
Here's my hiking/camping load in a .357 Mag. Ruger Security Six w/a 2.75" barrel ...Hornady 180gr xtp/fp `12.7gr of AA#9 and WSPM with a heavy crimp.

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