[Maverick223]

I have heard several people say that you should or should not reload using tire weights because they are too soft, too hard, too inconsistent, have impurities that can damage firearms, are dirty, etc... Is it alright to use them for reloading for either/both BPCR and nitrocellulose cartridges? I have recently purchased a new model Browning 1885 High Wall and want to work up some cheap target loads for it because I have access to lead for about 17 cents a pound. There is no short supply I can literally get it by the ton or ounce (if anyone wants any and is close I would be happy to get some for you as well). Any thoughts?

[MCgunner]

They're really a bit hard for muzzle loading, too much antimony in the alloy as I understand it. They work, but I'd rather use softer pure lead. Won't hurt the gun, though, shoot just fine. They're just a little hard to start when loading.

[Maverick223]

Thanks for the quick reply MC! :)

[Ginormous]

Your poll is flawed and biased, Maverick, and will yield little or no good data. By it's design, it's obvious you already have an opinion on the suitability of wheel weight lead alloy for muzzleloading.

If you really want to know, just ask.

[ArmedBear]

Wheelweight/pure lead mix works well for BPCR.

[Maverick223]

Your poll is flawed and biased, Maverick, and will yield little or no good data. By it's design, it's obvious you already have an opinion on the suitability of wheel weight lead alloy for muzzleloading.
How so and how so? Would I like to use it? Yes...Would I like honest answers? Yes...Will I use it if the majority says it is bad? No...Will I use it if even a few say it can damage a good firearm NO!

If you really want to know, just ask.
I thought I did, am I in the right thread? I seek only information...nothing else...if I didn't want to know I most certainly would not ask. :confused:

[Maverick223]

Wheelweight/pure lead mix works well for BPCR.
I will have to ask him what kind of weights were thrown into the mix...I don't know if it contains antimony. I will have to ask him to find out, because he sells it by the ingot (or chunk of ingot). He is a scrapper and typically just sells it for recycling so I doubt that he culls the different types out but don't know for certain.

[Ginormous]

How so and how so?

Bias and poll weighting of course. Six possible responses, of which four responses say "okay" (biased and weighted), one says "disastrous results", and the last simply says "haven't used", which would give no useful information related to the question.

The answers you seek are much more complex than a simple yes or no.

For your smokeless reloads, what cartridge, gun, bullet type/mold, lube and velocity will you be using the ww alloy for? How hard (BHN) is the ww alloy?

For your BPCR, similar information is required.

Provide some basic information, and your answers will be meaningful.

You've done none of the above, yet. :)

[Maverick223]

Six possible responses, of which four responses say "okay" (biased and weighted), one says "disastrous results", and the last simply says "haven't used"
It was the only prudent conclusions I could think of for the question, but since you think I have bias...
Moderator, please change the first option to "Super-Fastastic: Wheel Weights or Bust" :D (please change it I am serious)
what cartridge, gun
As stated in the initial post...a new model Browning 1885 High Wall...it is .45-70 and will be the only firearm I plan to reload lead cartridges for. I do not know what mold I will use because it is a new gun and I have not started reloading for it yet (lead or otherwise), but it will likely be a semi-wadcutter or round-nose. It will likely be a 405 grain bullet and cheap powder (haven't researched what to use) pushing it. As you can tell I have not worked through all the details. No lube it's a BPCR :D. I haven't a clue about the Brinell value, and don't even know if it is pure or alloyed (I assume it is an alloy with antimony and no zinc).

[Voodoochile]

OK boys-n-girls, here is the scoop on the different types of wheel weight leads.

Clip-on wheelweights. These are the ones everyone thinks of as 'hard'.
Lead 95%
Antimony 2.5%
Tin .5%
Arsenic .1%
Trace elements 1.9% (Cadmium, calcium, silver, copper, etc)
This would do OK for many cartridge firearms including BPCR's because of the fact that you are not trying to force it down the chamber or bore of a muzzle loader & 9 times out of 10 you are going to size & lube the projectile prior to mounting into the cartridge case.

Adhesive wheelweights. These come in strips, and are stuck onto mag wheels.
Lead 98%
Antimony .25%
Trace elements 1.75% (Arsenic, cadmium, calcium, copper, silver, tin, etc).
This is better suited for muzzle loaders because the Lead content is higher & the other elements are less making for a decently soft projectile for this purpose but for low powered pistol & rifle cartridges "less than 1200fps. it would work as well.

With clip on wheel weights you will notice a slight drop in projectile weight & a slightly larger diameter projectile than the mold is stated due to the other elements off setting that aspect but for cartridge firearms where sizing is a normal step in reloading this is but a moot point.

With Adhesive Wheel Weights you have to watch what you are picking through because the new Zinc weights are around & it is a talent in it's self to know which is Lead & which is Zinc, taken me some time to figure it out.

[Maverick223]

OK boys-n-girls, here is the scoop on the different types of wheel weight leads.
Thanks Voodoo, great info!

[bigbadgun]

I have always done this if you can scratch it with your finger nail go for it

[Ginormous]

Information begets information. :D

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

When you melt the tire weights the other metals (known as dross) will rise to the top. Skim that off and you will be left with reasonably pure lead. I don't know exactly how pure but plenty clean enough to pour into the molds. The balls, (if you skimmed right) will not be brittle or discolored or what have you....

[smee781]

Would the clip on wheel weights be safe to use in a Ruger Old Army?:confused:

[Ginormous]

No lead alloy, no matter how "hard" is going to hurt a well made barrel, no way, no how. Your Ruger is safe.

Keep velocities reasonably low (not difficult with BP) to avoid lead fouling with softer alloys, use lube of some sort, and life will be good.

[brotherlloyd]

like GotC said

[Maverick223]

Thanks for all of the replies. Looks like I will be getting a mold and start melting some lead.

[arcticap]

One THR member named "fineredmist" is an avid reloader of .45-70 for his Browning High Wall BPCR rifles. He's mentioned that he reloads with American Pioneer Powder (APP).
Considering his experience, maybe he'll provide you with helpful reloading tips and advice etc....

Here's one of his posts, just click on his name to send him a PM:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3121000&postcount=13

[Maverick223]

Thanks for the contact, I sent him a PM. :)

[sargenv]

Something I haven't seen is mention of the newer WW's made from Zinc. If you get any of these in your melt, it can really make casting bullets a chore. Zinc melts at a higher temperature, so as long as you keep melt temp below 700 deg or so, you should be able to skim the Zinc WW's off the top with the clips and other things. Lead WW's will dent when squeezed with a pair of wire cutters, zinc WW's will be harder and will not dent. Also apparently zinc rings when dropped on concrete while lead generally sounds like a dull "thud".

[brotherlloyd]

Like bigbadgun said

[rifleshooter2]

The use of tire weights is said to have two problems. 1. They are harder than lead 2.Your not sure of the content. I'll address each problem as I see them

1. Harder than pure lead, Yes but with a properly patched ball the lead does not contact the rfling, The patch materal grabs the rifling and the ball in inturn held by the patch. On balls that I have recovered there is no rifling visable but you can see the weave of the fabric impressed into the ball. Pure lead will expand better and the patch may be able to grip it better but I have noticed no real difference on the grip.
2. You not sure of the content, mixing tire weights can lead to inconstancies in ball weight. what I do to counter act this is weigh each group of balls and seperate them by weight. this will counteract the varing weight. All the ball from a pot should be pretty close but different batched can be off.

Buy using these techniques you can use tire weights for shooting but due to the better expansion of pure lead I would only use pure lead for hunting.

Andy
Legion Ville Historical Society
www.legionville.com

[Maverick223]

Something I haven't seen is mention of the newer WW's made from Zinc. If you get any of these in your melt, it can really make casting bullets a chore. Zinc melts at a higher temperature, so as long as you keep melt temp below 700 deg or so, you should be able to skim the Zinc WW's off the top with the clips and other things. Lead WW's will dent when squeezed with a pair of wire cutters, zinc WW's will be harder and will not dent. Also apparently zinc rings when dropped on concrete while lead generally sounds like a dull "thud".
Unfortunately I have no real way to determine the exact contents of the lead, as it is in about 90lb. ingots. When I melt for casting I should see the Zinc on top (assuming there is any) and be able to skim it off. Thanks for the help.

[CoRoMo]

We've been having years of success with wheel weights in our muzzleloaders.

My dad is currently casting for the .50cal BP as well as .38spl/.357mag, .45acp, 9mm/.380, .30-30, .30-06, .25-06, and 8mm Mauser.

[Smokin_Gun]

Use only soft lead Balls/Bullets in a C&B Revolver. Pistol or Rifle...if you don't want to damage/wear out the bore prematurely, be able to seat an over size ball/boolit into a chamber or bore. allow the ball/boolit to expand in the bore when fired.
Besides not being accurate in a C&B load...the money saved on clip on wheel weights does not out weigh the cost of another Revolver...stick to soft lead. Save wheelweights for modern guns and smokeless powder.
My $.02 worth :O)

[rifleshooter2]

You have a point with C&B revolvers I don't shoot those but pressing them into the chamber could cause problems, as for a rifle the patch will protect the bore.

Andy

[Smokin_Gun]

as for a rifle the patch will protect the bore.


Well, a patched lead ball gets grooves in it even with the patch and don't tear...hardcast will tear the patch down the shoot of a rifle.
You cant use hardcast on Minne Balls as the skirt won't flair.
I still recommend not using hardcast lead in C&B or Flintlock weapons.
Then again I am a traditionalist with Black Powder Shooting and don't use inlines sabots or any polymers in the barrel of which I pour black powder.
Anyone else can do what they want, but this is how I do it.

[BCRider]

What is the lead alloy makeup of most modern rounds?

I shoot at, among others, an indoor range that has an angled steel backstop that pushes the bullets down into a dump area at the base of the "venetian blind" backstop. They shovel this out occasionally and sell the stuff to somwhere that either makes bullets out of it or ingots of lead alloy for other uses. I have no doubt that I can get as much as I want for the scrap metal price they are getting for it since it's useless to them. It'll have lots of copper FMJ scrap mixed in but that'll float to the top as mentioned.

Would this be good casting material?

[sargenv]

If the bullets are jacketed, the core is usually pure lead since the jacket engages the rifling and the lead is there along for the ride and to provide weight.

If the bullets are lead, they can be anything from soft swaged lead up to Linotype in hardness, depending on who made them up and what velocity they are expected to travel without leading the bore of said firearm.

My personally loaded bullets are a mix of 50% WW and 50% 92-6-2.. likely they come out to about 93-5.4-1.4 with .2% of whatever else makes up the WW lead.

[MCgunner]

Jacketed bullets could be any alloy, but generally is normally pretty pure lead for expansion and to make it easier to swage as jacketed bullets are generally swaged and usually from pure lead wire. Cast lead bullets are usually cast harder, meaning more antimony/tin to reduce barrel leading.

I dig range scrap and cast bullets both for cartridge guns and muzzle loader/cap and ball guns with it and have no problems. It's all free, so I'll continue doing it. I have no problems using it either in muzzle loaders or cartridge reloading. Stuff is normally dirty, of course. Might wanna wash it and dry before melting for ingots. Gets some of the dirt out so fluxing ain't quite the pain.

How is using hard cast balls in a cap and ball going to be any rougher on the bore than firing them in a .357 magnum? :rolleyes: The sole problems I see are harder starting when loading and the lack of, or less expansion of a Minie skirt. My Minies are quite accurate, so I don't think I have the problem in my Hawken and I cast them mostly of range scrap.

[Steven Youngblood]

I use them all the time.
I am in the process of trying to get a 5 gallon bucket full.
after melting and scooping off the dross, the metal is soft enough to scratch with my finger nail, so I figure it is soft enough.

[Maverick223]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

[Black Toe Knives]

Junk yards have a good supply of lead around .50 a lb.

[fordlover35]

I'd rather use softer pure lead

Same here. I have seen it done before and have help in the process. I just perfer pure lead.

[zxcvbob]

Unfortunately I have no real way to determine the exact contents of the lead, as it is in about 90lb. ingots. When I melt for casting I should see the Zinc on top (assuming there is any) and be able to skim it off. Thanks for the help.
If there's zinc melted in the lead already, you can't get it out; the lead is ruined and only good for sailboat ballast.
Hopefully the guy who melted it knows that and was careful -- or he got the wheel weights a long time ago before zinc was a problem.

If there's zinc in the lead, you'll know it when you melt it. It will be like oatmeal even when it's good and hot.

Properly rendered wheel weight lead is perfect for smokeless cartridges.

[Maverick223]

If there's zinc melted in the lead already, you can't get it out
Good to know, he said he would give me a sample of a few pounds; I will have to test it first. Although I know him well so I am sure he would buy it back if I asked him to; no reason to waste his time if it isn't good.

[BHP FAN]

Voodoochile and Ginormous are right,I use WW in my Trapdoors with no ill effects,but it's much too hard to use in,say,my six shooters or Hawkens.What will ruin a lead batch,though,is Zinc.Zinc does not mold well,and any amount-no matter how small-will ruin your batch.It just will not fill the mold properly,making for ''blurred'' ill defined bullets,with lots of fractures.Just miserable stuff.

[zxcvbob]

I've got a few pounds of zinc'ed lead; I wonder if it would cast decent .457 roundballs for my powder mill? Not sure I wanna get it in my casting melter to find out.

[BHP FAN]

You'll regret it.It's really ok for casting fishing weights,and not much else.while it might be more durable than lead for your powder mill,I wonder if the weight would be enough?

[zxcvbob]

It's mostly lead, so the weight would be the same. It has just enough zinc in it to ruin it for casting bullets. (it melts about like cottage cheese, but high surface tension should be a *good* thing when casting spheres as long as it doesn't also make them porous)

I thought all stick-on wheel weights were pure soft lead. I didn't check for steel and zinc weights, and there were enough steel weights that I didn't notice how hot it was getting without all melting down. I'm really glad I didn't just dump all the weights in a big pot and melt them all at once -- ruining 100 pounds instead of just 7 or 8 pounds.

[BHP FAN]

I did the exact same thing.Some pretty nasty fumes come up while the adhesive burns off the stick on weights,so I usually dump in five or six pounds of mixed clip on and stick on,after separating out the obvious ''steelies'',and come back when they're melted and skim off the clips,and flux the remainder.When I fluxed,I noticed my ''lead'' was almost white. When it refused to cast a decent bullet,my fears were confirmed. Even after cleaning,my next two melts were less than successful.It really is miserable stuff.

[bigbadgun]

hmmm I was wondering about old dive belts the weights on those are lead I have like 4 of them I gotta see if the lead is soft enough to scratch with my finger nail if it is I have 100 or so pounds of lead. Since I dont dive anymore might as will get some more use out of those old belts.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Bigbadgun, I used to do a little hardhat. (a lot of it really) Company called Oceaneering down there in Louisiana. Started out as a tender just like everyone else. I'vd went down and opened or closed many a valve for some oil company. Did a little deep sat to..
Well, anyway, good morning....

[DuncanSA]

I have only used WW in BP revolvers. Usually OK, but I found some batches difficult to load owing to hardness. I only use pure lead now, both for revolvers and rifles.

[Voodoochile]

When I Smealt my Adhesive Wheel Weights, I'll do it outside & on my old single burner camp stove & old GI issue canteen cup so that I can control what is going on I keep my thermomiter handy & keep the temps right at 630 - 660, skimming off the dross & old tape, add Flux & let it stirr for about a minute before I pour it off into Ingots.

[BHP FAN]

I have some commercial flux powder,but prefer useing beeswax.What do you use?

[Voodoochile]

I also prefer Bees Wax "man I keep those little buggers busy" but I do also have some Frankfurt Arsonal Casting Flux too.

[BHP FAN]

Yep,that's my combo,too.I started with the powdered flux years ago,but lately have started useing my leftover grease cookies,which are about 75% beeswax,and 25% Crisco.

[kanook]

not all stick-on(tape) are lead. I've have been getting alot of Zn and Fe. take a pair of sidecutters and if it's hard to mark the ww in question, pitch it. I would rather throw away a couple of good ww's by mistake than screw up a couple of lb's. :D

[Maverick223]

Thanks for all the great replies, I didn't realize how many cheap b******s there are out there. Glad I'm not alone...:D

[bigbadgun]

GoC I never did alot of diving just as a recreational thing but I never really felt comfortable under the water like that so I just gave it up I figured if I dont feel comfortable doing it then maybe I shouldnt be doing it.

[BHP FAN]

Not only is molding your own fun,but the present ''ammo crises'' has a lot less bite if you cast your own.
Also,sharks won't eat you while you're doing it.

[Voodoochile]

Amen brother on that one, the only round in my home I don't reload is my .45 ACP but then again I have some where around 3000 rounds of Remington FMJ's & 1000 rounds of Remington JHP's & I only shoot a few mags a month to keep my feel for the old girl so I'm not too worried about her, although I do have a bud that has all the gear necessary for me "nice gift" to reload it including 1000 primers & brass.

[BHP FAN]

I have a mold for .457 conicals,that works really well for .45acp.I just alox the heck out of them and size to .451-.452. my .311 185 gas checked cast boolits drop as .314,and I have Lee sizers in .311,and .308 ,and can load for .308,.303 and 7.62x54r with just that mold.I have a 385 grain mold for my Trapdoors,and a 405 solid, as well as a 405 hollow based.

[Voodoochile]

I thought of trying my .456 222gr. conicals that I use in my C&B revolvers but also though of another Lyman or Lee mold for a .452 230gr.

[BHP FAN]

If that's the Lee conical mold,that's the one I'm useing,and it works really,really well.The ball shaped nose feeds well in my GI RIA,and my Ballister Molinas,and the driving bands [even sized down] hold plenty of lube.

[4v50 Gary]

IMO, tireweights are fine for musketballs.

[BHP FAN]

No reason why not really,unless you mean Minie balls,in which case the skirts don't obturate.but if you mean ,say a patched round ball,in a smooth bore,why not? Save your nice puro puro lead for your rifled guns.Heck I use WW for my .45-70.