[jduvall89]

I am writing a research paper(7-10)pages on the role of snipers in combat. I need to provide two visual arguments for the paper. I need one to be a graph or statistic of somesort. Does anyone have any ideas on what kind of statistic I could use? Pretty much anything about snipers, I Just do not know what to look for really. The other image is just going to be a picture, and have been thinking about doing the picture of the suicide bomber shot in the head by a .50 cal, it is really graphic though, but could support my argument in a way.

Does anyone know any good sources or can offer any help? Thanks

[Hungry Seagull]

One simple google search USMC Sniper Course

http://www.usmcscoutsniper.org/hogsden/becoming.htm

There. There is everything Sniper for you to do the work necessary to satisfy your teacher's requirements. Study it, learn it and then produce it.

Good luck.

[Ridgerunner665]

Statistic...if you can find it.

Compare the number of rounds the average infantry soldier fires to kill 1 bad guy.

I have read that in Vietnam....infantry averaged 50,000 rounds for 1 kill.

And yes.... I know the tactics of the infantry are VERY different (cover fire and all that), but it would be a number he may be able to use.

Just a thought...

[Hungry Seagull]

Another more exciting aspect of Snipers as a life savior is that of a designated marksman. Something a bit new to my thinking in a squad, fireteam or platoon.

The one DM will be sniping important enemy targets. I read a story over on Military dot com where one DM was able to take 20 enemy lives and silence a machinegun nest or two and save a number of his fellow Marines. Ranges were at 200 yards or so.

Or you can reach back to world war one where the old German Kaiser Helmets used to lose thier "Spikes" at certain ranges. And a place in France where Marines sharp shot Germans at many hundreds of yards.

For the very best in Sniping, you might want to look over the SAS in the UK. Those folks.... whew. You can rent the Movie Enemy at the Gates I think is of the Russian Soldier at Stalingrad who became a sniper out of necessity.

Saving Pvt Ryan had a pretty accurate sniping bit I think in the world war two era in that movie.

Both Union and Confederate forces had sniper weapons that were defined by extremely long tubes to sight through and worked alone targeting important people.

In the Revolutionary times Sailing ships had Marine sharpshooters in the fighting tops (Half way up the masts and sails on platforms) aiming to take out the enemy officers on the opposite ship's quarter deck. But on land, sniping was considered somewhat dirty and dishonrable because of a different way of life in those days.

Or keep it simple and use your nearest local Urban Law Enforcement agency large enough to have a Swat team with snipers.

The important part of this is to gain a desire to learn/want to immerse into sniping and then produce a work easily understood by others. I think the Class really does not want to sit for days to see a shot made.

If you are really getting into it, you may learn of how our enemies after 9-11 would capture Marine Sniper weapons and used them against American Forces and how they would shoot.

There are a number of videos on the internet that will show actual sniper shoots, good, bad and the ugly against enemy forces, american forces and against suspects here at home who have thier handguns shot out of hand or something.

Video games dont have a very good ... sniping situation. Usually the view distance in the games are limited to way less than the ranges a good shoot are typically shot at and the games dont replicate wind and other effects on the bullet.

And finally, dont forget about the SNiper's Spotter. This is a most important part of the team that makes it all work. While the sniper on the Barret is eating the muzzle blast and dust kicked up by the gun, the Spotter can tell instantly what the results were.

Or you can simply review the Maresk Captian Rescue using the recent SEAL sniping of the three bad guys in the lifeboat situation. That particular shoot will probably become a part of our history in a good way, with that story being told and retold long after we all here are dead and gone.

Im happy shooting a dinner plate sized target at 20 yards center mass with a one ounce slug and pleased. These people who qualify, train and go out and do this stuff has to hit with much different ranges and sometimes through glass or other objects to make the shoot work. I can never ever be a sniper. But I have always thought that they have saved many lives over the years.

They are also good for information. If they see... a group of something important, it will not be hard for them to communicate that actionable intel up to thier commander who will then transmit to the appropriate asset under his command or kick it higher for them to handle.

Finally, I have heard or read stories of a naval weapon that is kept aboard a warship and is fired from a cannon of some size. This particular.. munition could have possibly been used to kill a specific bad guy inside his apartment (Through the window) from a hundred or more miles away from the sea.

Myth? Real Story? Wild Imagination?

Who knows? I sure dont.

[Dark Skies]

If it's just got to be some random graph I'd have thought one pertaining to bullet drop over distance would be more than appropriate. Or height of [a] distant object[s] relative to distance regarding mil-dot sights.

[jduvall89]

The graph or statistic has to be relevant to the role of a sniper. ie. 200 insurgents were killed since January by USMC snipers..


Something like that, where it shows that snipers are crucial to war

Thanks!

[Dark Skies]

You don't think bullet drop and target ranging are relevant to sniping? I guess things have changed since my grandfather's day.

[ScottG1911]

Yeah like said above, average in vietnam was 52,000 rounds per one kill for infantry vs 1.3 rounds per kill for snipers. This shows the superiority a snipers gives, especially embeded with infantry.

[Ridgerunner665]

You don't think bullet drop and target ranging are relevant to sniping? I guess things have changed since my grandfather's day.

Relevant yes...Informative to the general public, not so much.

[hinton03]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/word_secret_directory/docs%2F101215.pdf?Signature=TGhHtfWZmyFMOBkj2EdUpDlyNuc%3D&Expires=1242225602&AWSAccessKeyId=0QDQ3FGYV5Q7TY85W4R2

[bratch]

Read Shooter and Marine Sniper you should get some ideas plus they are really good books.

[danweasel]

I don't know what school you go to but I'd be willing to bet that if you put that picture of an inside-out head in your report you are going to meet the "authorities" or "someone who can help" real quick! You might be better of using one with a bad guy in the scope but not dead yet. There is that one with the guy facing the other way holding an RPG that is pretty explanitory.

[TimM]

Why not use the recent rescue of the ship Captain from the pirates? In post #490 of this page http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=195967&page=20 you will find a couple of great sniper photos - one from the fantail of a destroyer.

[jester_s1]

For statistics, you may just look for some estimates of the increased battlefield effectiness of squads that have a sniper. It's no coincidence that every organized army in the world has some kind of designated marksman on the field. For pics, one of the most impressive to me is the one of the VC sitting out in a field with the crosshairs dead center on his chest. I think it was Carlos Hathcock that took it.
An interesting angle for your paper would be to show the changing role of snipers in combat. They started as hunters to go in and make hits on high value personnel. Later their primary value was to slow down a platoon's movement and act as a demoralizer. Today, snipers do alot more scouting than actual shooting, serving as the commanding officer's eyes on the battlefield.

[Hungry Seagull]

Jduvall89.

Bullet performance versus wind, gravity and spin plus temperature changing situations between the shooter and his target has every revelance.

Every revelant. So revelant that as I understand it once a weapon is issued to the sniper having been zero'ed for that specific sniper, no one else gets to touch it except the spotter or another trained and qualified sniper.

If your teacher thinks otherwise then Im sorry to say you have a Imbecile for a teacher.

When I fire my slugs at the range, the chart on the ammuntion box says that I can expect the bullet to stop rising about 2 inches above aimpoint at 50 yards and drop to about 9 inches below aimpoint at 100 with decreasing energy and velocity.

Hell, half the time the slugs come skipping back half way to me across the range floor after hitting that backstop.

I dont have any charts or pretty power points to cough up. That is something you will have to determine while building your own presentation.

[psyopspec]

The other image is just going to be a picture, and have been thinking about doing the picture of the suicide bomber shot in the head by a .50 cal, it is really graphic though, but could support my argument in a way.

Make sure you have a good source. If it's the one I'm thinking of, it flew around the web in email forwards a couple years back, but the photog, location, story, and cause of death were unattributed.

[JShirley]

You can rent the Movie Enemy at the Gates I think is of the Russian Soldier at Stalingrad who became a sniper out of necessity.

Too bad this all seems to have been pure fiction...

J

[Reid73]

Some more movies involving sniping:

The Sniper (1952)

The Ravine (1970) [originally released as La Cattura (1969)]

Dirty Harry (1971)

I don't know what school you go to but I'd be willing to bet that if you put that picture of an inside-out head in your report you are going to meet the "authorities" or "someone who can help" real quick!Yes, I agree.

These books would be a helpful source for your paper: Martin Pelger, Out of Nowhere: A History of the Military Sniper (2006); Andy Dougan, Through the Crosshairs: A History of Snipers (2005).

If your teacher thinks otherwise then Im sorry to say you have a Imbecile for a teacher.Perhaps so. But when writing a paper for credit, the wise student will target his or her audience's prejudices.

[Maverick223]

College or grade-school? I am going to assume that you are a recent grad (born in '89?) and are in college, you should be fine with th topic, but leave out the "inside-out head shot". As mentioned above...a good statistic would be the no. killed by infantry vs. by sniper fire (in Vietnam or elsewhere). Don't forget to site your sources (where you find the stats - this is not one of them), and good luck; Mav.

P.S.: if you would like (and have time to do so) I will read, check, and critique your paper; I did quite well in writing in college. PM me if you would like and I will give you my e-mail address.

[bikerdoc]

google Carlos Hathcock, one of the greatest USMC sniper in viet Nam

[jduvall89]

I decided to to make a quantitative bar graph using the confirmed sniper kills off of Snipercentral.com..

Any pictures that I can use for a visual argument leading to snipers irreplaceable role in combat?

I might use that picture of the sniper off the fantail of the ship.

I could not find that VC crosshair picture.

Yes I am a college student, born in 89..

I won't be using that picture I mentioned before.

Hinton03 what was that link you posted? It is denied when I try to get to it

I could not find any numbers for infantry kills.

I never said that bullet performance was not relevant. I said I needed a graph or statistic relevant to the ROLE of a sniper, not gear. Thanks

Thanks for everyones tips..

[Maverick223]

I won't be using that picture I mentioned before.
Glad to hear it...GL, Mav.

[Dan Crocker]

Every revelant. So revelant that as I understand it once a weapon is issued to the sniper having been zero'ed for that specific sniper, no one else gets to touch it except the spotter or another trained and qualified sniper.

One of the key points about writing a research paper is to keep your audience (i.e., the prof) interested. Talking about the dry statistics of environmental affects on bullet trajectory, while very relevant, is B-O-R-I-N-G.
I think that the earlier suggestion showing how many rounds it took to cause one confirmed enemy casualty in Vietnam vs. how many rounds expended by snipers per enemy kill would be about the greatest graph to prove their effectiveness.
Dave Grossman's book On Killing should have the statistics, which you can easily plug into Excel to make a graph.

[Hungry Seagull]

Well, that is why I dont try to HELP much on the young folks these days. In my day dry, boring and reams backed by tomes to fall asleep on and not a computer in sight anywhere was my stock in trade during make learn something.

Kinda hard to compress something down to a typical 6 minute attentions span between commericals these days.

Graphs and pictures can be built, generated and made.

Try Star Office Dot ORG for your free software to assist you in your work. Beats paying microshaft for thier office packages.

+1 on the link to the Marine who has demonstrated real life experiences in the USMC. Study him and alot will come to you.

There are many things that are bought and paid for up to and full value of someone's LIFE to gain some of these things that are useful to the next generation of warriors we need to train so that they will at least have a gleam of a idea of how to start things off when it's thier time to fight.

SOmeone here can provide you with a picture or graph but you still will have to build something around it and dont forget to provide the credit to the source of this imagery either from your own creation or someone else's work.

Good luck!

[Maverick223]

Well, that is why I dont try to HELP much on the young folks these days.
If you don't...how will they become a ornery old phart like you...:D :neener:

[jduvall89]

Hey Thanks Seagull. I will try

[jduvall89]

HEY check this out guys!

that diagram is perfect for my image

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/04/14/2009-04-14_seals_freed_phillips_with_simultaneous_shots.html

[Dark Skies]

Hungry Seagull +1 In my day you did your own research. Papers were a hell of a lot longer than nine pages too. I blame MTV.

[Medusa]

Sniper team is by my opinion a sophisticated tactical weapon system, used to support the higher cause, not simply the current situation at hand. As they are highly trained, and it does take more than basic course to actually start to master the trade, they can be used to support infantry actions, or conduct independent missions. Using a sniper team for observation has one huge advantage - availability of precision fire, if the situation demands.

And true, modern sniper teams have evolved a lot, having different weapon systems available (like .338 LM which looks to be pretty good all-around anti-personnel round or fifty cal) when the shot has to be made, skills and means of covert observation/recon have evolved using modern technology. But in the end, the evolving process is first natural, supported by rapidly advancing technology, making new means and possibilities available, or bettering existing ones; and secondly, the role of a sniper team is changing accordingly to the changes in warfare - today's battles in A-stan and WWII's in Stalingrad, for example, are whole world different.

As the talk has gone to modern warfare which tends to be more vague and decentralized/ asymmetrical, the sniper team, as intelligent (not just "smart"), discriminating and precise weapon system is pretty suitable to root out one certain fellow in the market full of civilians, for example, also the only mark left of the team's existence would be the dead fellow and the bullet that hit him/her. And as the existing and probable adversaries will evolve too (stupid ones getting killed, leaving smart ones behind) and learn more that successful guerrilla tactics do include high explosives and precision fire, they will use snipers/sharpshooters too, so there is an increasing need of counter-sniping.

And because of the same reasons, the US military forces, for example, have increased the amount of snipers, and have put more emphasis on DM-s (either Designated Marksmen in squad level or Advanced DMs in platoon level), to increase the unit's range of aimed riflefire, ie having a small-time firesupport available at all times, giving a better chance against those insurgent snipers who have been a total menace in Iraq, for example, and I don't see any reason why current or future conflicts would be any different.

Sniper team is a very valuable addition to combat troops. It does not replace them - snipers can't take over a piece of land, but they surely can deny the enemy to do the same and conduct their plans by their will. Also a very important aspect of sniper warfare is psychological one. Knowing that there are enemy snipers around has huge impact on moral of the troops, especially if the enemy team is successful one. I have witnessed that on trainings here - movements tend to go slower and lower, during one of patrol competitions the inclusion of few sniper teams as counter-force had such a huge impact that half the assignments on the track had to be canceled to ensure that the competition would actually end when it was supposed to (within daylight), or that any team at all would actually make it to the finish line, but IIRC every contestant "died" at least few times.

ADDED: you can always drop a line in PM if you'd like educated opinion from the other side of the Atlantic - I do know quite a few people in that trade, I could forward direct questions.

[Reid73]

In my day you did your own research. Papers were a hell of a lot longer than nine pages too. Well yes, certainly. But let's give the kid a break: he's only a highschool student.

[Hungry Seagull]

And a internet help group straight to sniper school LOL.

Gawd, if this here youren internet was around in my day long ago... Id have the stuff done and chores finished the same day and bury teacher in paperwork.

Wait... I did bury the teacher in papers in college some years ago. The net just made it faster to generate with a printer.

Now that old number two pencil... (Uphill both ways etc) whew.

I was just thinking my local library needs to empty the books and upgrade with new books. Walking into that library is like walking back into the Carter administration. But I suppose with this here internet there isnt much need for a library anymore these days.

[svtruth]

article in the most recent American Rifleman on the role of snipers in the American Revolution.
Good luck.

[Maverick223]

Well yes, certainly. But let's give the kid a break: he's only a highschool student
Should be a Sophmore in college, and depending upon the course I can understand a 7-10 page paper. What class is it? I am going to guess philosophy, sociology, or maybe psychology.

[Medusa]

Hungry Seagull, your messages seem to be, well, bitter, at least just a tad. Sure, "back the old days" there weren't internet and world was bigger, yet if there are means then these means have to be mastered - getting actually relevant and truthful information from the 'net takes a lot of practice and skill, just as getting info from books. Besides, books aren't upgradable in situ, unless someone writes in it or the book gets reprinted.

Nonetheless, I prefer good books to computer screen and libraries will not die, their role is also changing with time. "Lead, follow or get out of the way", or who doesn't evolve, dies.

Anyway, back to topic, even sniper team's composition haven't been unchanged: originally there were lone wolves, then sniper pairs which are generally considered as teams, but recently the teams have been widened, adding at least one man into the mix - perhaps a .50 cal with dedicated shooter if the distances and opposition requires it, more often a fourth too, who is not a sniper, but more an additional security measure, preferably with SAW. Or the dedicated sniper duo/trio has from half a squad to half a platoon for close support and security measure, because even 4-man teams have been ran over.

[Hungry Seagull]

Medusa, Not too bitter.

I was the student that wolfed down lunch in 5 minutes and spent the next 45 finishing up the core homework from that morning classes.

I tried hard to keep my class average high enough so that the last term paper would not matter as long as the complete zero grade did not dent the average too much.

Not a good student, just one who tried hard to minimize pencil time and maximize sports time for the day. It was more important to be able to defend the quarterback from a Opponet team weighing twice yours than it was to shuffle papers in a dusty library.

We did have the old apple IIc's and II'es at the time in seperate rooms. But these assets were so tightly controlled and very little used by the students as to almost be a complete waste of funds and technology for the school year.

The internet improve my college experience and made it most helpful. But to try and help others with a assignment it's easier to point someone or oneself in a direction and let it go.

A time or two I had to take my class computer's network name and IP off the school and access the real internet through a proxy to get some materials otherwise restricted by the "System" as it were. That was a long time ago. Not possible today. My last teacher was a very good one and demonstrated to me my every move one afternoon on that class machine. Nothing illegal, just showing me what is possible when one has the right information in the right places.

[Reid73]

Should be a Sophmore in collegeWell in that case I agree. For a purported university student to crib some quickie seven-page paper from the Internet is pretty lame.

Generation Y! :scrutiny:

[Hungry Seagull]

And for the teacher to run said paper or in this case document file through a program searching for cribbing or whatever they call it is sad today.

I like the diagram of the lifeboat vs warship. The story of how the snipers got onto it and teamed up and saved a life is a story that will be told long after we are all gone.

I think it's a good picture for class. If you put it up on the board with me in there, I would be wanting to know several things.

How did the pirates end up with the captian?

How did they ever agree to be towed? (I think they were towed to set a range to snipe on... my theory)

And finally how did the snipers make it to the ship? This isnt something you break out of a deck locker with a bunch of deck hands working it.

The Biggest story I recall writing about in my time was how the Marines got blown up in Beruit. I knew absolutely nothing back then as a younger adult but after following up on that event, I got angry. But what good is it 25 years or more after it happened?

I will never forget those Marines. Maybe one day there will be payback if ever.

[owen]

what class is this for?

[WNTFW]

A good aspect to use & easy to find info on would be the difference in Military vs Law Enforcement snipers. Specifically the distance at which targets are engaged.

Another thing I found interesting is the how the U.S. did not keep records of its sniping and had to start over war after war. You may find an angle there. For WWII a book written by a WWI sniper was used to get up to speed.

The Civil War sniping surprised me at some of the distances involved.

The aspect of going to a 2 man vs 1 man team may be a good topic.

Let us know what you end up with.

[sarduy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMRdhWc5x5Q


good intro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfrQquDIDMQ&feature=related

Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM6PkU5VLNI&feature=related
Part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRnXEvsmweM&feature=related

[jduvall89]

I appreciate all of the wonderful, helpful comments! I have not been on the computer as much lately, so have been not keeping up to date here.

I am a sophmore in college, and I don't know why or need the bashing against me. All I was asking was for ideas on visual arguments, such as the one I posted. A picture. And some statistics that I could graph. I have been doing all of my own work, I was just looking and hoping for a direction to run towards. I am thankful for the ones who have been thoughtful,mature, and informative.

I am taking all of the comments into consideration.

This is actually a research paper for one of my english classes. This class is online based, and so I have the ability to search the web a lot easier than going to the library.

Thanks

[sarduy]

I appreciate all of the wonderful, helpful comments! I have not been on the computer as much lately, so have been not keeping up to date here.

I am a sophmore in college, and I don't know why or need the bashing against me. All I was asking was for ideas on visual arguments, such as the one I posted. A picture. And some statistics that I could graph. I have been doing all of my own work, I was just looking and hoping for a direction to run towards. I am thankful for the ones who have been thoughtful,mature, and informative.

I am taking all of the comments into consideration.

This is actually a research paper for one of my english classes. This class is online based, and so I have the ability to search the web a lot easier than going to the library.

Thanks


don't forget to try this link, and watch it to the end
good intro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfrQq...eature=related

[jduvall89]

what was that link? it was invalid..

[Maverick223]

YouTube Quote...The URL contained a malformed video ID.
Did it have a third hand? I've often wanted a third hand. :D

[Sunray]

"...visual arguments..." Arguing what? Stats of what? A visual argument?
"...a lot easier than going to the library..." Not as much real info though. While the Internet is a great research tool, there's also a great deal of nonsense promulgated too. Go read some books.
"...Snipercentral.com..." How many kills a serving sniper has doesn't matter. Like Medusa says, snipers don't work alone and they're very highly trained PBI troopies. They do a job and they don't talk about it. Real combat vets never do.

[Reid73]

This class is online based, and so I have the ability to search the web a lot easier than going to the library.Enough said. :barf: