[Hillman]

Ah, the drivel I find while looking for other things. <sigh>

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/986540/posts

Essentially, an article dealing with the emotions and thought processes of people attending a CCW course in Kansas City.

Here's one I hadn't heard before:
"If you do shoot someone, and you belong to a church, have you thought of what your church will say? What will your neighbors say?"

Well, I suppose the members of the church won't be saying, "He was a good man. May he rest in peace."

I suppose the neighbors won't be saying (to your spouse), "We brought you some lasagna and a baked ham. Let us know how we can help you get back on your feet."

I guess it's important to some people to be in their social circle's good graces even in matters of life and death.

[winstonsmith]

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

I think the important point here is that he hit the trarget 20 for 20. He can snivel later.

[DorGunR]

Here's one I hadn't heard before: "If you do shoot someone, and you belong to a church, have you thought of what your church will say? What will your neighbors say?"

Well frankly Scarlet.................

[Bowlcut]

hmmm guess defending myself, my family, and my friends dont mean anything. oh well i knew a long time ago i was going to burn for worse things :evil: or thats how some religions look at me...

[DigitalWarrior]

I will say "Hey guess who I brought to Jesus's forgiving grace?"

[Thumper]

Hey DW,

Dont we kinda have a moral obligation to speed attempted murderers on to their maker?

[Standing Wolf]

My neighbors would come over to congratulate me, and probably bring something to eat, too.

[Nightcrawler]

Pfft. Who cares? Ooh, the neighbors won't like me, they won't think I'm quality people.

Look, friends that turn on you for defending yourself aren't really friends, are they?

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Who has neighbors?

[Tamara]

Part of being a good neighbour is knowing when it's time to mind your own business. :scrutiny:

[Dave R]

My neighbors know me well enough to know.

[Nightcrawler]

neighbour

You're doing it again. ;)

[Rogelio]

I'd tell them to shut up..I have a gun !!!!!!!!!1 (ok,ok, I know that I should not even joke about braggin on guns...)

[six 4 sure]

Living across the river, I can only HOPE and PRAY that someday I can worry about what the neighbors might think. However, I doubt that CCW will ever exist in Illinois.:(

Six

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

My relatives in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia wonder why CCW is necessary in Utah (all those nice, peaceful people). It is necessary so that we do not have the problems they have in the PRK.

[CGofMP]

I dunno what the neighbors would think, neither do I care..

But I can imagine that some of their teenager or young adult offspring would overhear the parents talking about it.... Bet those kids find someone else to rob or burglarize....


Charles

[pax]

Here's one I hadn't heard before:
"If you do shoot someone, and you belong to a church, have you thought of what your church will say? What will your neighbors say?"
Hmmm, a lot of flippant or callous answers here. Too bad. I think a lot of people have forgotten the issues they wrestled with when they got their first self-defense gun. For some folks, maybe it was long enough ago, or happened at a young enough age, that it's understandable you'd forget.

Me, I've only been shooting seriously for about three years now. When I first got my gun, and especially when I took my first class and got my CCW permit, I found a lot of different things to think through and consider. The reaction of neighbors and relatives was certainly one of them.

I think a lot of people have this starry-eyed idea that they'll be a hero if they shoot and kill some scumbag, that the cops will congratulate 'em and slap 'em on the back, that the neighbors will thank 'em, that the church folks will organize dinners for a week, that the city council will give 'em some kind of medal.

It doesn't work that way.

If you're a LEO and involved in a righteous shoot, you may be surrounded by LEO friends complimenting and reassuring you. This is a necessary and good thing, and is one of the primary reasons why police who are involved in deadly force encounters tend to recover their psychological equilibrium more quickly than ordinary citizens in similar situations.

For an ordinary person, defending your life might cost you half or more of your friends. If you live in a small community, odds are that the person you shot has friends and relatives whose paths you will continually be crossing. Even if they know that your attacker was a scumbag, they are hardly likely to give you a medal for offing him.

Remember the shooting in the Texas church a few years back? Some lowlife came into a youth group meeting and started blazing away, killing a bunch of people. Reading about it, I couldn't help but wonder, "What if I'd been there, armed and ready to protect the innocent?" Assuming I'd gotten through the physical difficulty of surviving the encounter, killing the perp, and not injuring any innocents, do you suppose anyone would have cheered? I really wonder. The folks in my own church would be unlikely to cheer (why is Christianity so often merely fatalism, I wonder?). Bet the folks in your church ain't so different.

Y'know all the threads here that begin with a line like, "I met a gun nut today!" or "You meet RKBA types in the darnedest places..." Such encouraging threads, aren't they? We're not alone, there's others out there like us -- and we are so damned rare that it's news when we encounter each other at any other venue besides the range. That should give you some clue what you could expect to face after even the most righteous shoot. Who in your community would really understand?

Nope, thinking it through is a good and valid thing to do. These are weighty matters. When all is said and done, you should be able to say, "I will do what I must do in order to survive." But you'd do well to count the cost before you say it.

pax

The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it. -- Woodrow Wilson

[Mike Irwin]

The day I care about what the neighbors, or virtually anyone else for that matter, says about me will be a cold day in central hell.

And that's not a flippant, or callous, answer, either.

It's a statement of fact.

As I've told people before...

Don't like my life? Stay out of it, then.

I'm fully cognizant of the social, financial, and psychological issues involved in shooting another person.

Fully.

And I have, as part of my decision to carry a gun, accepted those issues.

Given the nature of the few true friendships that I have, and the nature of the individuals with whom I'm friends (as opposed to the many, many acquaintances I have to endure on a daily basis), I sincerely doubt that I would lose a single true friend over an issue such as this.

[Ladybug]

Well, I for one hope I NEVER EVER have to shoot someone. I will in a heartbeat if I absolutely have to, but it would be a day that would change me for the rest of my life. Maybe I'm different (and contrary to all the mouthing-off I've been doing) but I hope and pray I am never in a situation that requires me to take anyone's life - no matter who they are.

As for my neighbors, the ones who are my friends - and whose opinion DOES matter to me, because they are my friends - would stick with me. The rest I don't care about. AND if I AM in a situation that requires me to shoot someone, I will not be pausing contemplate my neighbors' opinions.

[CGofMP]

Well, I for one hope I NEVER EVER have to shoot someone. I will in a heartbeat if I absolutely have to, but it would be a day that would change me for the rest of my life. [...] I hope and pray I am never in a situation that requires me to take anyone's life - no matter who they are.

All I can say are "dittos"

Charles

[capt_happypants]

Well, I know what the co-workers will say...

"Ya should've used a .45!"

Again, if your friends won't stand by you in your hour of need, well, they're not really friends.

[Nightcrawler]

Indeed. At the ripe old age of 22, I'm not exactly a worldy, salt-of-the-earth type with a million stories from my younger days (unless you really want to hear about Nightcrawler in elementary school). However, in my short time in this world, one thing I have learned, and learned well, is that trying times show you who your real friends are.

So someone isn't talking to you after you used a gun to save your own life? To hell with him/her, then. What kind of friend would rather see YOU dead than your attacker?

Community pressure CAN be a problem, though, espeically in small towns, and espeically if you've got kids in the local school.

Nevertheless, if your kids get picked on by the other kids because their mommy/daddy shot the badguy, it's still a lot better than them getting pats on the back and hugs because mommy/daddy is dead.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Huzzah, Mike.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[eatatjoes]

Here's one I hadn't heard before: "If you do shoot someone, and you belong to a church, have you thought of what your church will say? What will your neighbors say?"

"If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed." (Exodus 22:2)

"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his house, his possessions are safe." (Luke 11:21)

[Nightcrawler]

eatatjoes: Good reply! I'm not up on my study of scripture by any means, but I had thought that there was something about self-defense in the Bible.

[Gunslinger45]

I can honestly say that I have no close friends. Sad, but true. I have a few friends that have moved away who know me a little and I have some relatives who live close by as well as out of town. If I shot someone in defense of my life or someone else’s I think I can guess who would understand and who would not. I am not currently attending a church but I have ties to 2 different churches. I think that a lot of people in both would be praying for my situation should the incident arise.

I have wanted my CWP (here in Florida it's a concealed weapons permit - we can carry a variety of weapons concealed, not just guns) since before the 1987 statewide law was passed. However I never had a concealable weapon and the funds to get the permit until 2003. So I had a long time to think about the consequences of shooting another person. Oddly enough it wasn't this issue that almost stopped me form applying for my CWP it was the carry law itself.

It was during the 4 hour course that I had to consider the legal problems involved in just carrying a concealed weapon, especially a handgun, as well as what would happen if I used it in a defensive situation. The responsibility is a grave one, one I take seriously. Sometimes the weight of the gun increases when I consider the ramifications of using deadly force.

But long ago I answered one vital question concerning the use of deadly force. If forced to, meaning if there was no other way out, I could take the life of another human being if that human was a deadly threat to myself, a loved one or an innocent. I think I have an idea of the problems that this would cause emotionally as well as legally. I would have to face those problems as they arose. But one thing is sure if I am able to prevent it I will not allow another human to wrongly take my life, the life of a loved one or an innocent.

I pray to God that I will never ever be in a situation where the need arises for me to be forced to use deadly force. But if the situation does arise I pray that God will give the quickness of mind and body to respond to the situation properly.

[DigitalWarrior]

Seriously, the only thing that I am slightly concerned about is it's potential effect on my business. I choose my friends carefully, but all kinds of folks need to keep secrets.

[DorGunR]

"If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed." (Exodus 22:2) "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his house, his possessions are safe." (Luke 11:21)

Well that pretty well covers it for me.:)

[Shootin' Buddy]

Anyone who can throw away friends as easily as you guys apparently can, isn't a very good friend.

Don

[MJRW]

If my friends (replaced other church members with this because I don't go to church) or neighbors don't want me to be able to defend myself or others, why the hell would I give a damn what they would say after that? Flippant nothing. I can make more friends as long as I'm alive.

[Balog]

Anyone who can throw away friends as easily as you guys apparently can, isn't a very good friend.


Anyone who would rather I get killed than defend myself is the definition of a bad friend. By saying that, they are saying that they value my life less than that of my attacker.

[Tamara]

Anyone who can throw away friends as easily as you guys apparently can, isn't a very good friend.

Here's where we have one of those yawning gulfs between worldviews. None of my friends would have a problem with this, because all of my friends have CCW permits, own guns, and have politico-philosophical viewpoints that aren't more than a few degrees off from each other. I read posts from folks who talk about things like "Should I let my friends know I CCW?", and I just can't get my head around it, because a common question among folks I hang out with is "Whatcha totin' today?", said in the same blase tone usually reserved for comments about the weather. When folks get together for dinner at my neighbour's house, it's not uncommon for there to be three or four people with unconcealed pistols on their hip.

[HankB]

Here's one I hadn't heard before: "If you do shoot someone, and you belong to a church, have you thought of what your church will say? What will your neighbors say?" I only have a few close friends, and assuming my actions were rightous - meaning I didn't get drunk or doped up and injure an innocent - I'm confident they'd be supportive. My biggest problem would be keeping my mouth shut and not sharing details with any of them. (Possible legal pitfalls, you know.)

I have a much wider circle of "friends" that are really just people I see and talk to from time to time. If they dumped me even though I did nothing wrong, I'd value that, since it would reveal their character - or lack of same. I really don't need that kind of "friend."

[Balog]

I kinda want to have dinner with Tamara and her friends:) :)

[jrhead75]

I kinda want to have dinner with Tamara and her friends Me too! :D

[Gus Dddysgrl]

I've told a couple people I plan to carry. Most of the girls don't care cause it sounds like something crazy I would do. The guys are a different story. Some say why would you want to do that(one of which WAS my fiancee till I sat hit down and set him straight). The others would be like cool, can't wait till they can too.

People at church. I honestly don't know what they'd say.

My neighbors...............very scary thought. They are probably related to the bad guy I would have just offed and would come after me in revenge. Gotta love gangs. The other neighbors ....well the one guys is more fruity(well more soft and sensitive-he's a vegitarian who is anti-war, gun etc.) than I am. The rest of them would probably not say anything, but be glad that one less bad guy was wandering the streets. Daddy what would the neighbor's say?

As to taking a life- I sure would take a bad guys before someone I knew was hurt. If it came down to me or him. He will end up with a few holes in him. (Hopefully my shot will improve soon to be able to do that.) Daddy when are we going to the range again. I want to try your smaller ones to try and carry someday. ;)

Gus

[Mike Irwin]

"Anyone who can throw away friends as easily as you guys apparently can, isn't a very good friend."


Beg your pardon?

I count my TRUE friends on one hand -- Dave, Bob, John, Pete, and Chuck.

I've been friends with Dave, Bob, and John for over 35 years, and I'm only 38. Who else here can say that they have that sort of long-term friendship with someone, let alone three other people?

I know if anything happens, they'll be there for me. They've proven that in the past. And they know that if they need ME, I'll be there for them.

When Dave's wife was critically ill some years ago I drove over 800 miles overnight and manned the phones at his practice and watched their kids that he could spend time with her and make sure she got the care she needed to recover.

Conversely, I know I can count on them for anything, even my life.

I have a very, very simple way of defining a friendship...

A true friend is someone for whom you would kill, or be killed, if the situation warranted, and who feels the same about you in return.

If you don't know whether you have that kind of relationship with someone, then I submit that you're not really friends.

[Al Thompson]

Great post and point Mike.

[Brian Williams]

Our neighbors would probably not even know Gus or I shot someone except Nancy who would probably have seen it out her front door and she would say the perp deserved it. Tac the Buddhist-Vegan neighbor would probably say "It's your life.....but you should not do that".

Gus, range time is when ever