Too much crimp??


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vjay
May 13, 2009, 09:24 PM
Hello, finally I reloaded my first 380acp batch.

Don't know how much crimp do I really need, here is a pic. Please tell me what you people think, have a higher resolution pic if needed.

I'am using a lee 3 die set on a single stage press (lee breech lock challenger), so my seating and crimping are made on the same step.

Well, I had a very hard time adjusting overal length and crimp, don't know if its normal. Maybe I should get a FCD??

BTW, all these loads are plinkers.


Thanks.
Jay

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supham
May 13, 2009, 09:32 PM
My first impression is it looks like a little too much. I tend to crimp very little... just enough to remove the bell I put on it. However, I don't load for the .380 yet. Looking forward to hearing what others have to say.

Martyk
May 13, 2009, 09:36 PM
Way too much. I only crimp about .003~.005" When your starting out, it's always good to have some factory loads around that you can take measurements off of and compare visually just to double check yourself. Of course that's only as a back up after you make your ammo to the specs in your reloading manual.

Steve H
May 13, 2009, 09:37 PM
looks to me like too much. is the cola correct? looks long

Walkalong
May 13, 2009, 09:38 PM
Way too much crimp. Back off the seater, then re adjust the seater plug.

Yo2slick
May 13, 2009, 09:58 PM
I would take a fresh resized case and use it to set the seating die. I put the empty case in the shellholder, run the ram all the way up and start to screw the die body (not the seater plug) into the press. You will notice the shell will run inside of the die, when the die stops (finger tight) then stop there. You can turn it just a little bit further for a slight crimp but that is a good starting point.

You cant crimp very tightly with an auto loading pistol cartridge because it headspaces off the case mouth. With a revolver you would be applying a roll crimp which is another story. The neck tension from the case and maybe a very tiny bit of crimp should be perfect for that round. The Factory Crimp die in my opinion is just a bandaid. Once you set your die correctly you will no longer consider the Factory Crimp Die, atleast I dont.

vjay
May 13, 2009, 10:04 PM
@Steve
OAL = 0.975"
But first rounds where sized little long (.980) or small (.970) since I have some troubles adjusting seating die..



I'll reduce crimp for next batch, so what does a good crimp look like?

Would be safe to shoot these loads?

1858
May 13, 2009, 10:06 PM
Deleted:

:)

vjay
May 13, 2009, 10:06 PM
Thanks Yo2slick, I'll try that.

1858
May 13, 2009, 10:11 PM
Deleted:

Sorry, a photo of a roll crimp won't help.

:)

AMBASSADOR
May 13, 2009, 10:26 PM
I too reload .380 with Lee dies,buy the LEE factory crimp die and reload happily ever after.

The Bushmaster
May 13, 2009, 10:43 PM
Wow!! Way way too much....

Doesn't need the Lee FCD. The seating die he has is more then just fine. All he has to do is back it off a bit so it JUST removes the case mouth bell and maybe a kiss more...

vjay
May 13, 2009, 11:09 PM
Thanks everyone for replying and helping me out.

One more thing, it's ok to shoot that ammo? It may cause overpressure or something like that? I'am using min loads.


Thanks.
jay

Yo2slick
May 13, 2009, 11:11 PM
VJAY, I posted these pics of my 9mm cartridges. Not the best pics but hope they help.

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/Yo2slick/9mmDummy2.jpg

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/Yo2slick/9mmDummy.jpg

Yo2slick
May 13, 2009, 11:14 PM
I dont think you will be able to shoot those rounds, I dont think they will headspace correctly at all. I would probably pull them just to be safe.

vjay
May 14, 2009, 12:34 AM
Thanks for the pictures yo2slick, I think you are right, better play safe here. I'll pull them and save those precious primers.


Thanks for the help so far everyone.

editingfx
May 14, 2009, 08:33 AM
Wellllll, I'm one of the suckers who went with the FCD, and while I agree it really isn't necessary, it does make the setup really easy to adjust when you change boolits. Found I cut my "setup" run of (empty) cartridges in half by having separate seat & crimp.

As for proper crimp, using the FCD you can adjust it so it just barely kisses the case mouth, leaving a slight, almost imperceptible bevel on the mouth. Set that way, when I pull plated bullets out of the case, there's almost no crimp line on the boolit. Yet all the belling is gone.

Walkalong
May 14, 2009, 08:40 AM
His seater/crimp die can be adjusted the same way. If he wants to buy an extra die, he can, but it is not necassary.

Here are some .45 reloads (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=78940&d=1211818258) that show how much crimp I use. Just enough to remove any belling, and a hair more. I used a seperate crimp only die in the 5th station of my projector. I don't remember which brand offhand, but it is not an FCD, I can assure you.

editingfx
May 14, 2009, 09:06 AM
But with a single seat/crimp, ya gotta move the entire die to change crimp, which changes seat.... (lol... just kicking sand).

rcmodel
May 14, 2009, 11:11 AM
It is important to remember that the .380 ACP headspaces on the case mouth.
A roll crimp should never be used.

The taper crimp should do no more then remove the case mouth bell and return the case straight again.

The mouth of the case should measure no less then .370" at most.

SAAMI spec is .373".

rc

1858
May 14, 2009, 03:27 PM
Walkalong, EXCELLENT photo ... that brass looks perfect ... not a scratch, dent or ding to be seen ... is it new brass?

vjay, in the photos below you can see the difference between a taper crimp (.45 ACP) and a roll crimp (.45 Colt) both from the side view and the top view. When I set up my RCBS dies to load .45 ACP over fifteen years ago now, I did what Walkalong described but I also checked the crimp by looking down the length of the loaded road from the business end. If you can't see a clearly defined case "mouth" then you're probably over crimping. If you look at the top/side view of the .45 Colt load you'll notice that there isn't a clearly defined case mouth. I've shot something on the order of 8,000 to 10,000 reloads through my SIG P220 without a single failure so I figure I must be doing something right.

The photos below show three different .45 ACP cases and a .45 Colt load for comparison.

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/reloading/crimp.jpg

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/reloading/45acp_45colt.jpg

:)

Walkalong
May 14, 2009, 03:36 PM
is it new brass?Tumbled range brass, although I did hand pick ones for a pic. Good looking reloads yourself. :)

Knucklehead2
May 14, 2009, 03:59 PM
Vjay, I can see in the picture what appears to be a groove in the bullet usually associated with a roll crimp, maybe the source of confusion. They may look a little weird when you crimp them to the correct size, the size rcmodel gave you in post #20.

rcmodel
May 14, 2009, 04:03 PM
I agree it does appear to be a revolver bullet with a crimp groove.

Semi-auto pistol bullets normally have no crimp groove or cannulure for a roll crimp.

But you can't use it for a crimp with a semi-auto pistol round that headspaces on the case mouth.

rc

something vague
May 14, 2009, 04:04 PM
Crimping in a different step from seating the bullet is the easiest way to go in my experience. When I tried to crimp and seat in the same step I would always struggle to seat the last bit of the bullet before the crimping would start. Sometimes I actually ended up shaving a tiny amount of bullet but most of the time just ran into a bullet that seated with too much resistance and COAL would vary on me. And just as everyone else has stated, just a kiss of a taper crimp is all that is need, if that much at all.

1858
May 14, 2009, 04:29 PM
Walkalong, hand picked ... that's funny! :D You can see some cleaning residue on one of the cases in my photo ... your brass looks so perfect I felt that I had to make an extra effort. :)

Crimping in a different step from seating the bullet is the easiest way to go in my experience.

+1

I've always crimped in a separate (and final) step for handgun and rifle loads, although off the top of my head, the only rifle caliber I crimp is .45-70.

That bullet in the vjay's original post has some interesting markings on it too. Not sure what that's all about.


The mouth of the case should measure no less then .370" at most.

SAAMI spec is .373".

rcmodel, would you say that SAAMI - .003" is a standard minimum dimension for the case mouth diameter for most if not all handgun calibers that headspace on the case mouth? Lyman shows the .45 ACP to have a .473" case mouth so would .470" be the minimum acceptable diameter? I've never seen any published tolerances on case mouth dimensions so that's why I ask.

:)

Knucklehead2
May 14, 2009, 05:22 PM
1858, the easiest way I have found (since bullet sizes vary especially lead) is to mike the case, after pressing in the bullet, at the bulge near the bullet base, then taper crimp to that size, or a couple of tenths less (.0002). I hold it up to the light with the micrometer over the case mouth and look for light between the case mouth and micrometer. Should work with calipers if a micrometer is not available.

rcmodel
May 14, 2009, 05:33 PM
Lyman shows the .45 ACP to have a .473" case mouth so would .470" be the minimum acceptable diameter?I don't think there is a SAAMI crimp standard because there really can't be.
The measurement depends entirely on case mouth thickness of the brass, combined with actual bullet diameter.
That all can vary a +.001" here, and .+002" there due to manufacturing tolerance stacking.
Before you know it, measuring to a standard doesn't work so hot every time.

I recently did some .45 ACP measuring of three brands of GI issue .45 ammo I have:
WWC 64 Match measured .471".
RA 65 Match measured .4695".
RA 68 GI Ball measured from .469" to .471" in the same box.

But I do think anything more then .002" - .003" is going to cut into the bullet, or squeeze it under bore dia. more then it should, assuming neck thickness & bullet dia is what it should be.

rc

freakshow10mm
May 14, 2009, 06:13 PM
For crying out loud don't make it complicated.

For a cartridge like the .380 that headspaces on the case mouth, the proper crimp is to remove the bell you made expanding the case mouth. That means the case mouth should be flat against the bullet shank.

Case mouth diameter x2 plus bullet diameter= crimp measurement if you're into that sort of thing.

Walkalong
May 14, 2009, 06:16 PM
For crying out loud don't make it complicated..... :D

editingfx
May 14, 2009, 06:43 PM
For crying out loud don't make it complicated.
... but I was just about to get out the Powerpoints & protractors.....

Martyk
May 14, 2009, 08:19 PM
Hello, finally I reloaded my first 380acp batch.

Don't know how much crimp do I really need, here is a pic. Please tell me what you people think, have a higher resolution pic if needed.

I'am using a lee 3 die set on a single stage press (lee breech lock challenger), so my seating and crimping are made on the same step.

Well, I had a very hard time adjusting overal length and crimp, don't know if its normal. Maybe I should get a FCD??

BTW, all these loads are plinkers.

Hey Vjay.. did you ever think your question would get this much attention?? What a great group of helpful folk here at THR... don't ya think...;)

vjay
May 14, 2009, 08:46 PM
@Martyk
hehe, never ever ^^


Well guys, here's an update. New batch of 50 rounds, I can't feel any case flare with my finger tips.

ar10
May 14, 2009, 09:32 PM
Much, much better. I'd bet the first ones you pictured wouldn't chamber properly.

1858
May 14, 2009, 10:06 PM
Well guys, here's an update. New batch of 50 rounds, I can't feel any case flare with my finger tips.

Where did you buy those from? :D Your before and after photos remind me of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde! :D

:)

Walkalong
May 14, 2009, 10:55 PM
Very nice looking reload vjay. Let us know how they shoot, which should be well. :)

vjay
May 14, 2009, 11:10 PM
Thanks, I'll shoot them at the range tomorrow, these are my first reloads, can't wait ;)

Seedtick
May 15, 2009, 12:22 AM
Those look great. I hope mine looks as good.

ST

vjay
May 15, 2009, 05:45 AM
Thanks for helping me get into reloading guys :)
Great tips and advice so far THR.

Maybe a little off topic, but yesterday I reloaded some more, while seating & crimping, bullet got stuck on seater die! Ramp goes down with case only... I just had to turn the adjustment knob clockwise and it eventually pushed cast bullet out of the die. It happened twice! Flare disappear, so I guess case was crimped normally. Any thoughts? :confused::confused:

Martyk
May 15, 2009, 06:30 AM
Is that a picture if a Winchester factory load..??? :p

Looks great !! Have Fun !!

vjay
May 15, 2009, 02:17 PM
Thanks :)

rcmodel
May 15, 2009, 02:25 PM
bullet got stuck on seater die!Check for scraped off bullet lube in the seater die.

Will change seating depth, and the bullet may get stuck in the grease.

Not sure how you got it to crimp without a bullet in the case though.

rc

vjay
May 15, 2009, 02:48 PM
@rcmodel
I see, maybe case flare still there but didn't notice at all.
So this issue is normal due to lube?
When I was done reloading yesterday, notice seater plug had excessive lube and dirt, so I cleaned up.

rcmodel
May 15, 2009, 02:54 PM
So this issue is normal due to lube?
If you are not flaring the case mouth enough when loading lead bullets, yes.

Every one will get lube scraped off and it will end up in the seating die until it builds up and causes problems.

Bell the mouth enough that it cannot scrap lube or lead.

You should be able to start a lead bullet in the case by hand far enough to pick it up by the bullet without it falling apart.

Not as much flair is needed with jacketed bullets, but I still like to be able to start them by hand.

rc

vjay
May 15, 2009, 11:43 PM
Well, went to the range today to try these reloads. They shoot very nicely on my CZ83, but what is more important I had a great time shooting and reloading as well.


Thanks everyone for helping me get started on this nice hobby :)

Yo2slick
May 16, 2009, 01:33 AM
Congrats and welcome to the hobby!

something vague
May 16, 2009, 09:51 AM
How was the leading in the cz83 after shooting your reloads? How many do you end up shooting? The reason I ask is I have always loaded jacketed rounds with my semi but have recently bought 100 LRN 9mm bullets to try out due to cost.

AMBASSADOR
May 16, 2009, 04:07 PM
Here's what they look like when using the Lee FCD,every roung feeds without a hitch!Magtech 95 grn FMJ.

vjay
May 16, 2009, 04:56 PM
@something vague
Only 50 rounds, barrel looks dirty, lube and dirt. But no leading at all.

My lube is old NRA formula I made weeks ago (same amount of parafin, vaseline & bees wax). Don't know which is the best lube out there, but well it seems to work for 380acp :)


@burr00
thanks, nice pics ;)

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