[Moparmike]

In my house, the longest shot would be 10-12yds, and that is if I am standing _in_ the kitchen sink aiming at the front door. Realistically, my shots would be more like 10-15ft, and I dont want it to go thru walls. I have 1 slug, 2 2.75in 00buck, and 2 3in 00buck on the buttcuff for "other" needs as they might arise.

So, why is #8 bad for the scenario I described? I believe that a couple of rounds of this stuff would make a BG think again, right before he died on my carpet.

[Mike Irwin]

It's not necessarily bad, especially if you use a full choke to keep the full force of the load on target.

It's effectiveness may be negated some if the individual is wearing heavy winter clothing, though.

[C.R.Sam]

Worth testing with your gun and load.
Might still be in one package at that distance.

Sam

[Dave McCracken]

Sounds OK to me. But take the time to MEASURE that longest shot opp and pattern a few rounds at that distance plus one yard. I'd want the load to arrive in the smallest possible diameter.

As to heavy winter clothing negating the effect, true enough on handgun ammo but we're talking about oodles more energy.

[Al Thompson]

I've killed critters with #8 shot. The key is to be very close. If the shot is still tight, you get the "rat hole" effect. I tested the distances for spread with my two 870s and reported the results on TFL. I decided to got with a heavier shot (#2 birdshot) for an extension of my effective range.

Best thing is to plan your engagement areas and pattern your SG with your loads. Then BA/UU/R...... :)

[Mike Irwin]

"As to heavy winter clothing negating the effect, true enough on handgun ammo but we're talking about foot tons more energy."


Foot TONS more, Dave? I don't think so.

A typical load of No. 8 shot is 1.25 ounces, or 547 grains.

A typical velocity for such a load is in the 1,200 fps range.

Doing the math, we come up with just over 1,700 foot pounds of energy for that load of No. 8s.

Given that a .357 Mag. or a .45 ACP can easily crank out 400 to 700 ft-lbs of energy, you'll see the differen't isn't in multiples of tons.

We also need to note that energy alone is NOT a reliable indicator of any round's stopping ability.

A handgun bullet, say a hollowpoint, that plugs up with heavy winter clothing will generally turn into the equivilent of an FMJ and often will show greater penetration abilities. Not really a bad thing.

But light pellets that expend the their energy in attempting to penetrate the same heavy clothing can have a dramatically different effect, and not necessarily a good one, either.

[TrapperReady]

Mike - Don't all shotguns cause the bad guys to fly across the room when hit, regardless of what they're wearing? All those TV shows and movies can't have gotten it wrong. :rolleyes:

[kotengu]

Very true - I had a painful lesson at the last 3-gun match I attended. I found that even #6 shot, through a cylinder bore at a 8" steel target (on a TX Star) about 20 yds away, would NOT knock down the targets, no matter how many times I hit it.

It was a rude reminder that just hitting something with a shotgun does not always mean pure and utter devastation. It's all about how much energy is transferred to the target, and in this case it wasn't enough.

I'm glad I learned that at a match instead of when it mattered......

[foghornl]

This is In My Humble Opinion only, Your Mileage Will Vary.

Smallest I use for a "Home Defense" type load is #4 Bird shot, usually in a 3-Inch Mag "Turkey Load" Preferrred HD load is Rem 3"Mag #4 Buck shot.

Longest shot in my home is 9 Yds, and that only if poking muzzle inside living room wall while standing in garage shooting to farthest corner of kitchen.

[P95Carry]

#8 close in is pretty much like any shot size .... whilst it is a ''lump''!! yeah . find out where your pattern starts opening up.

A point here ..... I reckon one reason a shot gun is often chosen and in fact why it is often rather effective ..... is NOT for it's rapid and reliable ''knock down'' value ...... or even lethal wounding capacity. .........

It's that the BG on end of your muzzle should well know that something will hit him ...... even if not lethal. He may get pellets in the face, eyes ..... all very conducive to making the guy see sense and lay down and spread!!!

If he's only on the end of a handgun, whilst he could well think it potentially lethal ... he can also hope for a bad shot and so then his opportunity.

Staring down a close quarters shotty tube sure would loosen my sphincter .... whatever it is loaded with!!:p

[kotengu]

"If he's only on the end of a handgun, whilst he could well think it potentially lethal"

True - but that's exactly the problem I had painfully illustrated to me at that match. I'd always thought the shotgun had way more "knockdown power" than the handgun, but my .45 knocked down those very same plates easily. As I said above, it's all about energy TRANSFERRED to the target. You just have to figure out the nature of your target and prepare accordingly.

Would he know he'd be hit? Yes - but once he got over the initial fright and figured out he wasn't dead, he could either run, or turn on me knowing now my shotgun wouldn't take him down.

I don't want that to even be an issue. "Just enough" isn't what I want in a gun - that's why I shoot .308, 12ga, and .45, and by god I'll know more about what my loads and chokes will actually do from now on........

[keeperofthehills]

use slugs ...

what are you doing using #8 ... you dont want to kill an intruderthat much ... haha:)

[P95Carry]

use slugs ... Snails are better ... they have hard shells!!:neener: :D

[Dr.Rob]

At short range the shot is moving in a dense column, in essence they will likely pull the wad out of the wound too.

At 10 feet #8 shot isn't a slug.. it's a Glaser. True it's not going to penetrate like buck... but I seriously doubt anything in the reciving end.. winter clothes or blubber aside is going to feel any less dead and or greivously wounded.

Steel plates don't tell you much about what will happen to meat and bone. I suggest and informal "sacrificial roast" shoot to illustrate my point.

[Bruce626]

kotengu... with a bad guy in mind as opposed to some small bird, 20yds is way, way too far for a light load... at that range you should be shooting buckshot or even slugs. But, if you have a small house, you won't be shooting 60 feet, so a light load might suffice as others have noted.

[jsalcedo]

I got a really good deal on cases of #8 heavy dove loads at Academy sporting goods. So thats all I shot for about a year.

At 10 feet all the shot punched .70 caliber holes in some old water filled
garbage cans.

At 15 feet the shot went through an old car door but lost most of its energy after that.

I'm afraid any close range shotgun blasts regardless of pellet size is going to do its job in a home defense role.

The larger pellet size will retain energy and possibly over-penetrate causing additional danger to those in adjoining rooms

[NewShooter78]

I've got #8 bird shot loads in my SG right now, but the longest distance I would have to shoot would be 5 yrds. That's me either pointing at my bedroom door, or standing in door and shooting into living room. I have the light load because of overspray issues. This was well illustrated when I was patterning my SG last week. I had some nice big holes in the paper, and lots of tiny ones all over the paper. I do have 3" mag 00 buck in the shell holder on my stock if I need it, though.

p.s. This is through a 20" cyl bore.

[akanotken]

What are your options? After researching a bit, I've decided that I'd grab my AR15 if I had a choice. I have loved ones in the house, so overpenetration is my concern. I think the AR15 strikes the perfect balance between delivering enough penetration to reliably produce rapid incapacitation while having minimal overpenetration. (biggest fear is the length of bbl in CQ)

Shotgun is now way down on my list and I'd never use anything less than buckshot if given a choice. IMO, birdshot cannot be counted for 12 of penetration needed to reliably produce quick stops. I think 4 inches or so in gelatin, and that's not the whole payload. In fact, No1 buckshot is the minimal load I'd consider. It is a proven stopper, but not my first choice as it suffers from a lot of overpenetration. And it takes a bit of practice to produce quick follow up's.

I don't think anyone here would advocate the use of deadly force without the intent to STOP the threat as quickly as possible. Blowing a fatal, messy hole in the attackers lung might still allow him a chance to harm you or the others you sought to protect. The mindset that I'm adopting is this...Prepare to stop the worst of the offenders. Most people will leave you alone, the rest take anything from a verbal warning all the way up to a CNS shot to stop what they are doing. So don't concetrate on the 99.9% of people that will stop if hit with birdshot, it's the others you should prepare for as they pose the biggest threat.

IMHO, but I hope you will rethink your choice of weapon/ammo for HD.

[Al Thompson]

That's certainly a valid point of view. In fact, our concern with overpenetration is probably a bit extreme - but we don't know who's reading these threads (you'd be suprised at the number of lurkers here). The logical end of the "prepare for the average" crowd (of which I'm one) would be no prep for me - very few incidents where I live. :)

Your extreme would be arming yourself with active hearing protectors, combat vest, body armor and a 7.62 auto rifle shooting frangible ammo. After all, isn't 5.56 a whimp round? :neener: Lots of data suggests that 5.56 is not exactly a manstopper. Gotta prep for those North Hollywood style home invasions. :D

Big thing (IMHO) is to plan your engagement areas and determine your level of comfort with both the threat and your backstop. Once you have those things thought out, firearm and ammo selection should be pretty obvious.

[Lord Grey Boots]

The lightest I've ever seen recommended by those who know is #4 buck.

Low recoil tactical 2 3/4" loads will have enough ooomph (technical term :))

#8 sounds iffy to me. If the pattern is still 2-3" or so wide at that distance, then its probably okay.

[Moparmike]

At about 8-10 yds I had a clay target sitting on a bush. I shot it, and there wasnt a peice bigger than .25". Blew it nearly to dust, almost like it partially evaporated. At about 15-18yds, due to a poor shot and the distance, I had an intact half, and the other half was no bigger than .75" peices.

This was coming out of a 18" barrel with an open choke, in a Legacy Escort. Unfortunately, I have only shot 3rds out of it. I need to go to the range someday.

[akanotken]

Nice one Al:D

Can I reply with "oh yeah, well I wouldn't want to get shot with one":neener: or 30 :evil: Don't make me use my Cetme for HD, it hurts my whimpy shoulder :what:

Seriously, I wonder about the criticism of it not being a manstopper. As you know the 5.56 makes it's living tumbling/disentegrating on impact. This stops at distances well outside of HD scenarios. So my question is ... is the "non manstopper" name being applied by military (where distances come into play) or by civilians/police (where distances are more like HD)

Seems like more and more entry teams are gearing up 5.56 platforms. While it's not a definitive reason to use it for myself, it does mean someone else is thinking like me (and they are pretty over penetration sensitive too).

[Al Thompson]

Yeah, the 5.56 getting less penetration thing surprised me too. I've read some good tests using JHP/JSP ammo and note that it does work.

Heck of a lot cheaper to get a couple of good shotguns and spend the savings on ammo and training. :)

[MrAcheson]

True - but that's exactly the problem I had painfully illustrated to me at that match. I'd always thought the shotgun had way more "knockdown power" than the handgun, but my .45 knocked down those very same plates easily. As I said above, it's all about energy TRANSFERRED to the target. You just have to figure out the nature of your target and prepare accordingly.

No its about MOMENTUM transferred to the target since thats the physical quantity that tells you how much something was thrown around by an impact. At 20 yards I would imagine its really a function of poor velocity retention by small shot and too large a pattern at that range.

[jato]

Why is #8 bad for HD?

#8 at point blank range will probably be very effective. As the distance from the muzzle increases, the effectiveness of #8 decreases dramatically.

The minimum load I would use is #4 buckshot. I currently load with 00 buck.

I have seen the effects of a light bird shot load on humans. I just went to a shooting last week where a shotgun was used at contact distance. A man was shot in the back with what appeared to be #6 or so. He went down, went to the hospital and is recovering.

I also saw a shooting with a sawed off shotgun used in a robbery. The store clerk was shot at a distance of about 7-12 yards with a light load. The clerk was hit in the back as he ran out of the store. He was not stopped. The pellets did not penetrate far enough to reach any vital organs.

I ask my shotgun to perform the same minimum requirement as my handgun... 12 inches (minimum) of gelatin penetration.

With that being said, I understand the need for some to use birdshot to prevent over penetration.

[Al Thompson]

Thanks jato. Always good to get some real world results.

[SkunkApe]

Squirrels are often not immediately killed, or even stopped with #8 shot. I've seen a squirrel in a tree shot with #8 shot from the ground (albeit from a 20-gauge) that managed to hang onto a branch with his forepaw for some time after being hit. It took another shot to bring him down. This was from perhaps 30 feet. When squirrels are hit with birdshot, the pellets are often found lodged between the skin and muscle. It seems they penetrate the skin, than deflect in strange patterns partially circumventing the body between the skin and muscle.

Rabbits are another matter entirely.

Why someone would use a load that is marginal on small rodents to defend himself against 200-pound mammals is beyond me.

Birdshot is for birds. Thats why its called birdshot.

[Al Thompson]

It's all about distance. :) I've killed racoons with low brass #8s at very close range. Not once or twice, but several times. FWIW, our prison guards use birdshot for duty inside the prison.

[kotengu]

"No its about MOMENTUM transferred to the target since thats the physical quantity that tells you how much something was thrown around by an impact. At 20 yards I would imagine its really a function of poor velocity retention by small shot and too large a pattern at that range."

You are exactly right, I should have been more careful with my words. From basic physics, MOMENTUM is the only thing conserved in a collision (what we are studying here). ENERGY is rarely conserved, as much is lost in heat and sound, as well as during deformation of the colliding objects.

My main point with the TRANSFERRED comment was that many people talk about how powerful a round is by quoting its "energy" in ft-lbs at a given distance. What they don't say is how much of that ideal "energy" actually gets imparted on the target. In a FMJ rifle bullet, for instance, very little energy gets transferred to the target as the bullet will retain much of its own energy as it zips right through. Or I guess more appropriate here, if it's a rapidly expanding zone of birdshot, only the pellets that hit the target could possibly transfer the small amount of energy they have, and they probably won't transfer all of that energy to the target anyway.

Thanks for pointing that out - I let myself slip into the lazy wordings that frustrate me so much sometimes......

[sm]

I have said before here that due to arthritis mom can't due the revolver like she once could. NEF youth model 20 ga is always handy and she handles it well. It has the 2 3/4 " # 3 buck. We discussed the selection. She lives alone. Basically she is more concerned about stopping the threat, than remodling...but she lives alone.

jato, Al ... good points made.

I have worked in a OR, GSWs do not always duplicate what one thinks, reads about or puts pen to figures. ( math). Contact the BGs body with promo dove/quail load , and pull trigger, and it will stop an immmediate threat. but I've seen poorly placed buckshot results too. Seen the guy shot with 45 ,live and the guy shot with 22lr die.

It always boils down to 1) Shot placement, 2) testing for a particular gun and that choke as to what happens at a certain distance with that combination. Yeah rabid racoons at close range and #8 work. So does a 20 ga slug at 15 yds. But I knew the gun /loads/patterns and placed the shot. Would #3 buckshot have worked,probably...didn't have any that time out.

In a prison yeah birdshot I can see being a very good control load. Bunch of farmers used to shoot birdshot and rock salt to keep melons in the patch too. Not that I know anything about that of course :)

How many people have actually tested their choice ( pattern board), how many have taken game with that choice...