[Teufelhunden]

Obviously, shotguns have characterestics that made them attractive options for home defense. Will dropping down to a 00 or 000 load in either .410 or 20ga remove any advantage one gains by using a shotgun? I think there are 3 000 pellets in a .410 shell, and I don't know how many are in a 20ga shell, but won't multiple simultaneous hits almost always beat single spaced shots?

The situation is that my wife is unable to shoot 12ga, and I'm not fond of long range sessions with it (and 00 buck) either. Understandably, 12ga 00 buck probably tops the list for a one shot stop, but how far down is a 20ga 00 shell? I figure any scattergun will probably beat single shots from a .38 (her night-gun), but where is the point where you would be better off with a pistol?

-Teuf

[Kharn]

Any shotgun should do fine.
Has your wife tried a 20ga gas-operated semiauto?
I'm not fond of heavy 12ga loads in my 870 either, so I shoot a lot of light loads for familiarization (during trap/clay games) whenever I get the chance and heavy loads on occasion so I'll at least know what to expect should I light one off.

Kharn

[foghornl]

My Humble Opinion only:

I would take a good 20Ga gas-operated auto (Remmy 1100, for example) over the .410 for the recoil-sensitive. Again, IMHO only, the 410 is a bit too small.

There are probably many more 20Ga loads, but I most often see the 20's loaded with #3 Buck shot. Never 'owned or operated' a .410, so I don't have a clue about ammo for same.

As I sort of vaguely recall, the standard 20Ga Buck shot load (2-3/4") is 20 pellets of #3Buck @1200 feet-per-second.

#3 Buck is a .25-cal lead ball. Serious stuff, indeed.

[Youngster]

.410 is too small for the task IMO, even the slug loads are pretty modest in power and effect, granted even such a little shotgun seemed imposing enough when I once had a cut down example drawn on me. 20ga would just be a much better option and would probably be downright fun to shoot in a gas operated autoloader.

[Al Thompson]

I think the big issue with your choice of guage is dependent on what amount of recoil your SO can tolerate. If a 20 GA works, it's a proven deer slayer in this neck of the woods.

A good pump .410 loaded with the OOO load or the Brenneke slug (1900 fps) is nothing to sneeze at either. I did find the OOO load to pattern very wide out of my .410. May be a result of the full choke these SGs come with. Dave points out that the .410 slugs as loaded by American companies seems to exceed a .41 magnum from a HG. It's all relative - eaiser to hit with a long gun than a short one.

If you can afford it, get a full size 20 ga and try it out. Some adustments may need to be made, trim the stock to fit and perhaps cut the barrel.
I'd initially go with the fullsize as the Youth models are reported to have some snappy kick with buck and slug loads.


TTBOMK, 20 guage buckshot is available in #3 buck (2 3/4 shell) or #2 buck (3 inch shell). I've seen deer killed with 20 ga buck, so it'll do fine.

[Dave McCracken]

The Fed database I can no longer access as a private citizen gave no distinction between gauges, chokes or loads. 99% plus one shot stops.

As a shotgun load, the 410 is miniscule. As a "stopper" within the range that the load stays in the wad, it has to be considered as any other half oz of lead moving at 100 FPS or better. That beats 45 ACP hardball, and more or less duplicates the old 41 Magnum "Police" load.

IMO, one of the few uses for the 410 is for defense use by non shotgunners.

My crystal ball lies to me sometimes, but I have reason to believe there's HD loads for major gauges in the near future that will have less energy to transfer, but way less kick. These will STRICTLY be for inside the domicile.

Stay tuned...

[cookhj]

hey there corporal, a remington makes the 870 in 20ga in a youth/ladies model. if you get that and maybe have the barrel ported, your wife would have no problem handling it. with a 20ga, you can get 2buck or 3buck loads, which will work fine for HD. let me know if you need anything else!

[Dave McCracken]

Cookhj, I got one of those for the kids. With oz loads, it's uncomfortable for ME to shoot. Light loads for the 20 are still not as common as I'd like.

[cookhj]

yeah, but with a ported barrel, wouldn't that help reduce the recoil enough?

or maybe get a regular/full size 870 in 20 ga, and just put a speedfeed shortened stock on it.

[Andrew Wyatt]

ported shotgun barrels are not effective, as the gasses at the end of the barrel aren't moving fast enough to effectively use the ports.


a chopped 1100 lightweight would be the perfect gun for this instance. imho.

[Preacherman]

Jon Tank (http://www.tanksrifleshop.com/) does a very nifty HD conversion on the Remington 1100. Check out his catalog for details. Very reasonably priced, too, IMHO, considering the amount of work involved. I've handled one of these conversions, and am planning to have one done for myself as soon as I can find an old "beater" 1100 as a base.

[Dave McCracken]

Cookhj, porting is little more than wishful thinking on shotguns. Some folks claim it reduces muzzle rise, but I can't tell.

Better would be to heavy up the gun, IF the prospective shooter can handle same. Or, go to a gas auto.

[Mike Irwin]

.410 I wouldn't be too confident in, but the 20 gauge should be a real winner.

[sm]

Always said the best kept secret was a used 1100 around the home. If need find a youth stock, regardless just make sure it fits and she learns to mount it...reduces recoil...this fit and mount dealie.

Nope, don't port, just have her start with light target loads, get good form and comfortable...real good hearing ears helps with recoil too.

Keep eyes / ears open for a used skeet bbl that someone goofed up, bad choke, porting job...carry cash and act dumb. Have gunsmith whack to 21"- 24", put bead back on...looks PC too... cyl bore great for home and dense woods grouse/woodcock...if she will let you borrow it that is.

[WVleo]

Hi, Have been using a 870 20ga. youth model with a IC choked 21"rifle sights barrel for both Me & the wife for some time now ! Nothing as intimadating as the sound a 870 makes when You rack the slide ! Loaded with 2 3/4"buck shot and your good to go !..........WVleo

[Teufelhunden]

Truthfully, I probably wouldn't need a youth/ladies model because my wife's 5'11", so I don't think length of pull will be much of a problem. As a side benefit, a longer stock will give me more room to fill if I drill it and add weight.

How much of a difference is there between a pump 20ga. and a semi 20ga. in felt recoil? Does the gas action bleed enough thump out of shooting to make it comfortable (and justify the price difference)? Well, perhaps not comfortable, but at least not painful. ;)

The last thing I want to do is work up a gun that'll thump her too much and develop a flinch or unwillingness to use the weapon at all. I'm willing to shoot with a little pain just because it's fun, but she's not enough of a shooter to work through it.

-Teuf

-Cook, everything still in one piece up there, or has the armory blown up yet? ;)

[Al Thompson]

Tuef, I have a LW 20 ga M1100. It does soak up the recoil. PM me - if we're close, perhaps we can link up for her to shoot my 1100.

[akanotken]

On top of all of the other concerns, it'd be expensive to practice with. I'd recommend doing a lot of practice with field loads, and as much as you can afford with your HD shell of choice.

I concur with a gas gun (esp if recoil is prime decision maker) My 20 pump and SxS are more to handle than my 12ga gas gun.

Have you considered an AR? Very light on recoil, effective round, no reloads needed (10,20 or 30 rnd mag), because bullet will tumble and shred very low overpenetration. Similar in cost to own and operate and feed.

[Dave McCracken]

Tuef, felt recoil is subjective, but my best guess says that a gas gun cuts kick by 40% or so.The better ones like the 1100, 390, etc, also last a long time under heavy use.

While SLIGHTLY less dependable than the best pumps, the better gas autos easily pass the 200 round test.

[Firefighter]

Most people in a gun store or shooting range talking about guns look down their collective noses at the .410 bore. A major mistake in my book. a .410 loaded with 240 grains of birdshot propels it at 1300-1350 fps...roughly equivalent to .44 magnum loads

[Mannlicher]

Other than protecting yourself, and your loved ones, and instantly stopping an attack, what is the point of HD? If your life, and the lives of your family are worth protecting, then a 410, or 20 ga is just not practical. Go with the most effective gauge, the 12. Trust me, you will need all the edge you can get your hands on, when confronting a person intent on doing you and your family harm.

[Al Thompson]

:confused:

How does a 12 ga that the operator dislikes and dosen't shoot well beat a 20 that the operator likes and shoots?

Can't be ammo - seen too many critters DRT from a 20.

[cookhj]

i think the armory is still there......well, at least last time i checked. too bad you're not with us anymore!

[Powderman]

First of all, in consideration of the .410:

Think of it this way. You have a choice of shot, buck, or slugs. A .45 ACP, for example, moves out in its best loadings at around 950-1000 fps. We consider it (collectively speaking) as a fight stopper.

Now, take a heavier slug, drive it around 1200-1250, out of a longer barrel. You have the .410. Why do so many people look down their noses at it?

Second, if recoil is a consideration, I have only one recommendation:

Vang Comp.

Hans Vang will install a compensated, back-bored barrel that reduces recoil to the almost negligible. I have fired a friend's 870 in 12 ga. that has been Vang Comped, with full power 2 3/8 inch, 1 oz slugs. The recoil felt like a light 20 ga. I have also fired a Remington 1100 in 20 ga, Vang-comped. The recoil is comparable to a full sized AR15.

If budget is a problem, consider the Aguila line of short shells for the 12 ga. Also, think about a 12 ga, using trap loads.

At home-defense distances, a 1 oz charge of #6 or #8 shot through a cylinder bore barrel is much more than a skeet, trap or small game load.

Think Glaser Safety Slug on steroids.

I also recommend a pump for another reason, and I think that most will agree:

There is NOTHING that will induce instant, explosive diarrhea in a criminal faster than the sound of a 12 ga. pump being racked.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

[akanotken]

The racking of a pump as a deterrent.

Why do I want to waste a shell? If I wanted to scare someone (and I don't, I want to stop him) I'd fire a round. And, if the sound of racking a slide will stop your attack then you do not have a determined foe anyway (and count your lucky stars).

Get yourself a gas gun! You could shoot it one handed more than once.(you might get hurt, you might be helping/dragging someone to safety). They are plenty reliable.

Don't get me started on using birdshot for a quick stop.

My opinion only, YMMV.

[Teufelhunden]

Looks like a quality gas operated 20ga. loaded with 000Buck might be the ticket then...for variety's sake, what other guns are worthy of consideration aside from the previously mentioned Remington 1100?

-Teuf

[Bowlcut]

i currently keep my 20ga ithica model 37 featherlight loaded in value pack winchester loads beside the bed. my sister used to shoot it without much trouble. the light weight does work against its recoil...but its easy for females that have shot it to wield it confortably. With some lighter loads its still better for HD than a pistol and alot easier on the arms than a 12ga. Epcialy here in my apartment i dont need to worry about long distances so a mod choked 20ga is plenty.

a gas system might be the way to go. but dont go thumbing away pumps. a decent 20ga with say a slip on recoil pad or add on might work as well.

[russlate]

Have had an 18 1/2" Browning A5 in 20 ga. for years. Has size and handling of an M1 carbine. The store I got it from chopped the barrel and reinstalled the front bead. Absolutely no other changes.

On the other hand I have a Remington 1100 12 ga. tricked out with all the fancy tactical gear and extended magazine. My gunsmith wanted to make himself a copy of it.

Guess what I grab when things go thump in the night. ( Yes, it's the 20 ga. )

[tiberius]

First of all, in consideration of the .410:

Think of it this way. You have a choice of shot, buck, or slugs. A .45 ACP, for example, moves out in its best loadings at around 950-1000 fps. We consider it (collectively speaking) as a fight stopper.

Now, take a heavier slug, drive it around 1200-1250, out of a longer barrel. You have the .410. Why do so many people look down their noses at it?

The .410 slugs that I see are 1/5 Oz. That correlates to 88 grains. That's more like a .380 ACP than .45 ACP so I wouldn't consider it much of a "deathray".

[zahc]

20 guages are very popular in my family, in fact i can only think of one 12 I've ever shot. I've seen a lot of stuff killed (and missed:p ) with 20 guages and would never feel underarmed with one against people. Bears maybe.

.410? good enough, but 20 is better.