Middle ground between the AR and AK?


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Hammerhead6814
May 17, 2009, 11:07 PM
Your either an AR fan or an AK fan these days. Either way you've successfully gained understanding of the first letter of the alphabet, but despite this relationship AR owners and AK owners do not like each other.

So what of us who don't own either but want a good semi-auto for a reasonable price? That's what's had me googling for the past half-hour. I can't find a rifle that has a better track record of reliability than the AR, and has a record of better accuracy than the AK. I'm not looking for AR-AK hybrid, just something that fits the bill of a good semi-auto but keeps me far, far away from either owners group.

I keep thinking about the Mini-14. But where on earth can you find one for under $800? Then there was the idea of a CETME, but the quality apparently ranges from "simply amazing" to "it's not worth a damn past 50 yards".

What do semi-auto owners who do not own AR's or AK's own?

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FlyinBryan
May 17, 2009, 11:10 PM
the sks rifle is great middle ground.

as accurate, if not more than an ak.

BunnyPuncher
May 17, 2009, 11:14 PM
Not really the middle ground, but the Romak-3 seems to be a good gun for the price ($699 - $799 online - just avoid any comparison to a certain legendary russian rifle with a similar stock). Sort of an AK in design but chambered in 7.62x54R.

It is what I am planning to get to fill the semi-auto void in my life.

BP44
May 17, 2009, 11:14 PM
their is a new style w/flash hider Mini14 on the shelf at the local farm/sporting goods store for $699. and used ones selling for around $500ish

Hostile Amish
May 17, 2009, 11:33 PM
Either HK roller-locked rifles, M1 Carbines, or Mini-14/30s.

jpwilly
May 17, 2009, 11:45 PM
semi auto owners that don't want either the AR or AK generally are in the FAL and M1A camp and that's the 308. IF you want an intermediate cartrige you should reconsider and get an AK or AR.

jbsmwd
May 17, 2009, 11:48 PM
Well you could increase your understanding of the alphabet with the letters F, A, and L to make FAL (even if it not a word). I saw two of them at my local toy store for $1000. Check them over real good and make your it's not built on a Heese receiver, Imbel being the best copy of the orginal (sp?) FN FAL. The done side to this gun in today's market is the cost of 308 cal ammo. You will find more parts for the metric then you will for the inch version. If you want to know more about that gun check out.

www.falfiles.com

sarduy
May 17, 2009, 11:50 PM
the sks rifle is great middle ground.

as accurate, if not more than an ak.

you got that right!

http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/43961/2451305740095461090S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2451305740095461090tDHHhq)

http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/41805/2361387990095461090S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2361387990095461090zNhgYs)

dscottw88
May 17, 2009, 11:50 PM
Get one of those new Century Arms C93 HK rifles. I've been fondling the idea of picking up one.

rm86
May 17, 2009, 11:56 PM
I'd say bite the bullet and get one of each... They make credit cards for a reason don't they :)

Hammerhead6814
May 18, 2009, 12:16 AM
I'd say bite the bullet and get one of each... They make credit cards for a reason don't they

They also evict and repossess for a reason :( .

Travis Bickle
May 18, 2009, 12:18 AM
I can't find a rifle that has a better track record of reliability than the AR, and has a record of better accuracy than the AK.

I think you made a mistake here. It's the AK that's renowned for reliability and the AR that's known for killer accuracy, not the other way around.

So what of us who don't own either but want a good semi-auto for a reasonable price?

There are plenty of platforms that have all the virtues of both the AR and AK and none of the flaws, but the price point is the hitch here; very few of them are affordable, especially since the current political situation has sent the price of black rifles through the roof.

If you are willing to forgo detachable mags, take a look at the M-1 Garand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRCOr212E9g&feature=related). It's rugged, reliable, accurate and it won't break the bank. Even though you'll have to give up detachable mags, you can take some comfort in the fact that the Garand is much more powerful than either the AK or AR.

P.B.Walsh
May 18, 2009, 12:24 AM
What if you up the price for a gas piston AR like POF or LWRC, best of both worlds at $1500+:)

Dr.Rob
May 18, 2009, 12:51 AM
Daewoo was a cross of both. Not sure how 'good' the imported ones were, do a search here for them, see what comes up.

benzy2
May 18, 2009, 12:54 AM
The SKS is fun. I must say not all of us are either AK or AR guys. Some have and like both. I currently have sold my AK and am looking for another but will wait for prices to come back to close to where they were before the election. They are just different rifles. Not better or worse overall, though some specific uses make one design better than the other. Buy whatever seems like fun. If you don't want either of those or the SKS you have the mini line as well as all the FAL versions though you are jumping up in cartridge size there. If you are looking for a .223 to x39 cartridge you might want to reconsider either the AR or AK. They tend to be the two most popular for a reason.

R.W.Dale
May 18, 2009, 12:55 AM
one of the greatest gun fallacies you can fall for is the whole "AK's are inaccurate and AR's are unreliable" line.

don't you be next. Once ypu move beyond what the History channel tells you and dig a little deeper you find the reality depending on the particular rifle can be anywhere from one extreme to the other and anywhere in between

John Parker
May 18, 2009, 12:56 AM
The Arsenal Bulgarian AK-74 types are wicked good rifles. And you can get them in 5.56!!!

Big_E
May 18, 2009, 01:11 AM
SIG 556... its what I am going to pick up when I can. At first I wanted an AR with folding stock and diopter sights that is piston driven. Then I realized SIG offers everything that I want. Now to just up the caliber of the bullet is fires... :neener:

Eightball
May 18, 2009, 01:21 AM
SIG 556... its what I am going to pick up when I can. At first I wanted an AR with folding stock and diopter sights that is piston driven. Then I realized SIG offers everything that I want.This.

Save money, buy what you REALLY want. You'll be happier that way.

You remember exactly how many pennies you saved when you buy some cheap knock off rather than what you want, and think "well, I saved $XXX". If you buy what you want, at most, you'll probably think "I spent over $XXX, but geez was it worth it."

I don't have all too many firearms, but I'm proud to own every single one of 'em, with no regrets.

YMMV.

armoredman
May 18, 2009, 01:24 AM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/CZbooth11.jpg

VZ-58, not an AK, not an AR, all around great rifle.

UMB
May 18, 2009, 01:28 AM
Daewoo makes (made) a rifle that has an AR bolt and sorta SKS piston type gas system and uses AR type mags. Mine out shot a new Colt H Bar all day long at 200yards, sold the H Bar and still have the Daewoo DR200. Parts could be hard to find since it's a Clinton era banned rifle, but it seems that there are some US ones showing up more and more. Nothing has ever broken or malfunctioned on mine.

RockyMtnTactical
May 18, 2009, 01:34 AM
What about those of us who like AR15's and AK's?

LoneRider
May 18, 2009, 01:41 AM
I agree RockyMtnTactical. I'm fond of both weapons and aware that both have their advantages and disadvantages.

I've heard stories from fellow soldiers of unearthing AKs from caches and firing them on our firing range and they shot fine despite having been buried under a half rotted tarp for God knows how long. There's a definite indicator of battlefield reliability right there. That's why I'm an AK fan. I am, however, aware of the fact that the sights are too close together and if you're even off a tad when aligning the sights that leads to a big miss even over 150 meters.

I like how modular the AR family of rifles are and their tack driving accuracy. I also like that with a simple upper receiver swap you can make a CQC carbine, mid range rifle, or even a sniper rifle and with the Picatinny or comparable rail systems you can mount optics, lights, and other accessories rather easily if you so desire (personally I just like an optical sight, not really a fan of lights or other such gadgets). But I am aware that the weapon must be cleaned every day to preclude the possibility of a stoppage.

And thus I present to the OP it is possible to be both an AK/AR fan.

Travis Bickle
May 18, 2009, 01:51 AM
This.

Save money, buy what you REALLY want. You'll be happier that way.

You remember exactly how many pennies you saved when you buy some cheap knock off rather than what you want, and think "well, I saved $XXX". If you buy what you want, at most, you'll probably think "I spent over $XXX, but geez was it worth it."

I don't have all too many firearms, but I'm proud to own every single one of 'em, with no regrets.

Yup, that's my philosophy. I'd rather own just a few guns of superb quality than a whole bunch of cheap junk.

Coal Dragger
May 18, 2009, 02:11 AM
^ Exactly. You'll be using and enjoying the rifle/carbine long after you forget exactly what you paid for it.

gun addict
May 18, 2009, 02:29 AM
2 guns that comes to my mind that's a middleground of AK and AR

Isreali Galil : Lean more toward the AK design

Korean Daewoo rifle : lean more toward the AR design

both are great guns that incorporates features from the AK and AR series

lvcat2004
May 18, 2009, 03:06 AM
I have to agree with sig 556. AR look with AK-like action.

You're wrong about AR and AK owners hating each other. Some of us like both and have multiple firearms of both platforms :neener:

ScareyH22A
May 18, 2009, 03:15 AM
Gas piston AR's are pretty much the future so.... Ruger SR-556 :p You know there'll be plenty to go around since no one wants to pay $2K for a Ruger.

Sunray
May 18, 2009, 03:48 AM
"...What do semi-auto owners who do not own AR's or AK's own?..." M1 Rifles, M1 Carbines and M14/M1A's.
You buy an AR for accuracy and an AK, an SKS or a Standard Mini-14 for screwing around with a rifle. None of the latter 3 are made for great accuracy with any ammo. Screwing around with a rifle isn't a bad thing though.

Hammerhead6814
May 21, 2009, 02:36 PM
I think you made a mistake here. It's the AK that's renowned for reliability and the AR that's known for killer accuracy, not the other way around.


I guess I worded that kind of funny didn't I? What I mean is I couldn't find a gun that is more reliable than an AR, and more accurate than an AK.

As in the AR is a ten in accuracy and the AK is a five. The AK is a ten in reliability and the AR is a five. So what I'm shooting for is a 7.5 accuracy and a 7.5 reliability.

I know the thread has been off the main page for awhile, but I wanted to make sure this little issue was stamped out.

RP88
May 21, 2009, 02:38 PM
my AR and AK are best friends forever.

But honestly, if you want something in-between, then get an AK in .223 or an AK-74. Decent accuracy, lower recoil, in a semi-invincible platform

dscottw88
May 21, 2009, 03:57 PM
I'm fond of both weapons and aware that both have their advantages and disadvantages.

+1

I own and love both. Infact, my saiga shares a seat right next to one of my ARs in the safe.

Eon047
May 21, 2009, 04:40 PM
I Agree with some of the above posters in that many of the flaws counted on each rifle, You'll find someone makeing a solved version.
I would say a rifle with a caliber between both systems would be a middle ground. I say you could say the barett m468 is a middle ground, but thats just caliber-wise and even then you could chamber a AR for anything.
So I Say It;s all a matter of opinion.

61chalk
May 21, 2009, 05:29 PM
I own the MAK-90, an AR. You want something different...something that has a statement in accuracy, an reliablitlty...something that won't break the bank....an yet something with authority, something with power an when others look at it...an they do...they admire it....then I would suggest going to CMP.com an check out a WWII M1 Garand. You just can't go wrong with one....

msgsummit
May 21, 2009, 08:12 PM
I don't own an AR or an AK...although I have plenty of trigger time behind both after 22+ years in the military. The semi's that I do own are the 580 series Mini-14 and an M1 Garand from the CMP. I love my mini. It's one of the early 580 series with the skinny barrel. The only thing I have done to it was add a strut to the barrel. My mini is very reliable and more than accurate to take a man down out to 200 yards and was so even before I added the strut. Factory 20 round Ruger Mags have come down in price and are becomming more and more available. 10 rounders from Ruger are on the way as well. I highly reccommend the mini as long as you are not one of those who has to have a sub or 1 MOA rifle. The M1 Garand.....what can I say...it's an M1 garand. It's a pleasure to shoot, accurate and powerful, not to mention the looks of the weapon and the history behind it. I also owned an SKS about 10 years ago and was more than happy with that rifle also.

gotime242
May 21, 2009, 08:17 PM
I would say a saiga. Its all black, got some plastic..etc..

HoosierQ
May 21, 2009, 08:20 PM
Wow this one is easy. CMP M1 Carbine.

Kurt_D
May 21, 2009, 09:13 PM
Your either an AR fan or an AK fan these days. Either way you've successfully gained understanding of the first letter of the alphabet, but despite this relationship AR owners and AK owners do not like each other.

Wow, I must really hate myself; I own several of both :D. That said I prefer my AKs orignal looking (wood or poly) and my AR both ways (KISS and loaded). That's just me.

I didn't read all the responses but the Sig 556 and the XCR are current rifles that borrow from both platforms. You'll pay the price though as neither of them are mass produced enough to get the cost down to AR/AK levels.

rde
May 21, 2009, 10:17 PM
IMHO (without really thinking it through)...Mini-14 (newer 580 series), SKS, Daewoo, Bushmaster M17s (if you can find one..out of production), Armalight 180B, maybe Keltec SU-16 (if you can find one and you get a good one that is reliable).

SHvar
May 21, 2009, 11:31 PM
"but despite this relationship AR owners and AK owners do not like each other"

Actually theres no problem between AR and AK owners, whats to keep us from liking each other, we just prefer our own choice of rifle over the others rifle. The only AK owners that most AR/M-16 owners or users dont like are those who are shooting at our soldiers with them.
As for the mini-14, even with improvements in the new models they are inaccurate compared to the AR. Why else would Ruger decide to make ARs, its a niche they had no rifle to fill.
There are many gas piston ARs now available, due to prices Im sure there is little to no wait time on most of them.
There are many rifles available that are similar, in fact the sig 556 is similar, uses AR mags, but is not an AR at all in any way, again pricey.
Some of the other choices such as the SKS, or garand are rifles from other niches altogether, none fit the description of either an AK or AR. The FAL is comparable to the garand or M1A, different type of weapon.
Decide which you like, and want, or buy a few different models.

Defense Minister
May 21, 2009, 11:40 PM
I'm a Mini-14 fan. I really like that little carbine, and after putting $100 and a little of my time into it, it is more accurate than the Colt 20" HBAR I once had. I bought another used Mini today, with the factory folding stock, for $600. It came with 5 mags and a padded carrying case by Shooting Systems. You just have to be patient, and one will pop up for a reasonable price. Just be ready to jump on it fast when it does.

FiREhAwk
May 22, 2009, 12:13 AM
Maybe the new ruger ar?

KTALGSTO
May 22, 2009, 01:02 AM
theres a panther carbine for cheap cheap..and a really good quality gun also.https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411535100

u can look it up also at dpms home page but they sell them for more so?http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=39

northwestneighbor
May 22, 2009, 03:17 AM
For the money, the VZ-58. In general, the Sig 550. A chinese SKS is the cheapest option, but those 20 round box mags are expensive and hard to find and not all of them run nicely (mine's great).

I'm biased towards AKs, I'd say get one and sell it if it happens to be inaccurate. Through the irons, most of them are probably about as accurate as you are. You can still find them for $500-700 if you get an AMD-65, WASR-10/63 (not a plain WASR-10) or Yugo M70. I think if you went for an AR, you'd want to get something like an LMT or Colt 6920, but that's gonna run you $1000-2000.

Rubber_Duck
May 22, 2009, 03:40 AM
For me, the midle ground between the AR-15 and the AK is covered by the Robinson XCR and the Galil. The XCR if you lean towards the AR in modularity, Galil if you lean towards the AK in terms of feel.

Ignition Override
May 22, 2009, 03:47 AM
Now own a used Mini 30 and SKS. Can't tell you about accuracy (never checked), but both are very reliable, lots of fun blasting anything at a deep river from 40-100 feet.

Have seen two very good-looking Russian SKS at a gun show this spring, each listed for about $425.
With an SKS, the rifle always has a magazine.

stubbicatt
May 22, 2009, 09:18 AM
Think first of the cartridge you want to shoot. It's strengths and its limitations. Once you have decided upon that, then begin the search for the platform you desire.

Unless you design and build the rifle yourself, you will be limited to what is produced by others. SLRs or semi automatic rifles can be a whole lot of fun, true enough. The subtle and gross differences between them as far as action types seem to me to be exaggerated. The actions are all designed and constructed to open the breech, extract the empty, and chamber a fresh cartridge.

Accuracy is a relative thing, range is generally longer than you would imagine, in the hands of a trained and accomplished marksman.

Get your rifle, shoot it and enjoy it.

W L Johnson
May 22, 2009, 10:47 AM
AR-180B
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as36-e.htm
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/11546

I have one and it's my favorite plinker.
would that fit the bill?

Schofield3
May 22, 2009, 10:55 AM
You're wrong about AR and AK owners hating each other...:neener:

+1!!!

briansmithwins
May 22, 2009, 11:24 AM
I must be bipolar then, since I shoot both the AK and AR at matches.

My SLR017FR is a 4MOA rifle, but has never failed since I took it out of the box and put the 1st round thru it.

My AR is a 1.5MOA rifle, the only failure I've ever had was a broken gas carrier key bolt head. The rifle kept functioning and I found the failure while cleaning.

Some of the other options in intermediate cartridges: XCR, SCAR, FN2000, AUG, FNC...

All suffer from only being available from 1 manufacturer or being mucho expen$ive. Some, like the SCAR, suffer from both flaws.

After the SCAR has been out for a couple years and the price comes down to something semi-reasonable, I may move that direction. I'm a firm believer in the saying 'Never buy the first model year of anything more complex than a hammer'. BSW

SHvar
May 22, 2009, 11:40 AM
Wow, you must have had some serious problems with that colt Hbar to be less accurate than any mini14. My experience with the Hbar is extremely accurate, in fact with open sights at 100 yards punching round after round into the size of a quarter is pretty easy.
Ive been a long time owner of the mini14, its most accurate round is the very first one from a spotless, clean, well lubed mini14. After you fire the first round you can practically multiply the distance each shot spreads afterwards (up to about 4 inches).
With a few hundred dollars into mine it improved the accuracy by putting a more stable stock than the factory wood stock (which was also cut wrong and the trigger assembly on occasion would fall out until I replaced it with a synthetic stock, which worked flawlessly).
Sorry, comparing the accuracy of the mini14 at any distance beyond 50 meters to an AR is almost like comparing an AK to an AR.

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