Glock 21 vs. 1911


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MagnumDweeb
May 19, 2009, 12:57 PM
I've been wanting a 1911 for some time but when I start to do the metaphorical math on getting one I can't really bring myself at that last second to want one. It's not a matter of money so long as the 1911 is less than $700 and many models in Taurus, Firestorm, Bersa, even used Springfields can be had, not to forget the Rock Islands.

I finally built my .45 ACP stash up to 1.5k rounds and have a few extra 50rd boxes laying around to shoot. And decided my two Ruger P90s(one for the fiancee I bought and keep till we get married, she loves the model) are great HD and target shooting guns but not great SD guns. I'm usually a fan of revolvers for CCW, I have three snub nose .357 magnums for SD (S&W 640, Taurus 617, and Rossi 461). And I want a .45 ACP for SD.

But I keep looking at Glocks in comparison to the 1911. 13+1 versus 7+1(8+1 with some magazines). Glocks don't have a manual safety to fumble with, can relatively easily install the 3.5lb trigger. While 1911s have a safety, sometimes an ambi safety(and I'm left handed). 1911s are one of the most easy to customize and modify platforms(uncle of mine I've helped work on projects with kits from Caspian and Fusion) and a long trusted platform. But Glocks have a long history of reliability and I know a few people who have had great customer service with sending back guns they bought used (cracked frames being replaced for free by the company).

Granted I could also go with a Glock 30 or 36 for conecealed carry so that is also something to consider.

I keep getting to that edge to buy one, but just can't take that leap.

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General Geoff
May 19, 2009, 01:30 PM
The Glock has capacity, the 1911 has a better trigger and slimmer design (arguably easier to conceal).

I used to be a fan of fantastic plastic but since I got a 1911, I carry that exclusively because it's that much more accurate in my hands and more pleasant to shoot. I have a doublestack 1911 so capacity is not an issue.

Reliability is more of an individual firearm basis problem. You could get a Glock that's a real dog, just as easily as a lemon 1911. No matter WHAT gun you get, always thoroughly test it for reliability before carrying it.

John Parker
May 19, 2009, 01:51 PM
I much prefer the Springfield XD 45 over the Glock 21. It fits me better. But in 9mm, I like my Glock 19 waaaaaay more than the XD 9.
That Glock 21 is a big gun.

Grey Morel
May 19, 2009, 02:03 PM
How can a gun be "great" for home defense, but poor for self defense? Are you talking about concealed carry?

HippieMagic
May 19, 2009, 02:03 PM
I have officially fallen in love with my Glock 19. I will say though it makes a lot more sense to buy the glock if that is where your heart tells you to go right now then later when you are able to actually have a gun you can play with and won't have to worry about being without a good .45 you can pick up the 1911 and begin playing around with one of those. I prefer to go with something you can trust to always go bang than going with something you might have to tinker with to get working perfectly.

CWL
May 19, 2009, 02:08 PM
Flip a coin if you can't make up your mind, there really isn't a right or wrong choice. Just get what you'll most be happy with right now (you'll want something else again later...)

Glocks don't have a manual safety to fumble with
This is the only bit of untruth in your post. You don't "fumble" with the thumb safety, it is where your thumb goes when you grip the pistol. "fumbling" with the safety is as big of a problem as someone forgetting where to place their trigger finger when they want to shoot -it just doesn't happen. Muscle memory will tell your hand where to go.

KBintheSLC
May 19, 2009, 02:15 PM
If you prefer a 1911, you might enjoy a Sig P220 DA/SA. Its not exactly a 1911, but much closer than a Glock comes to that feel. I love Glocks and own 3 of them, but it seems like most 1911 guys don't like them. You can find a used P220 under $700 without too much effort.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=6296534&cat=185&lpid= P220 for $675 with night sights

mljdeckard
May 19, 2009, 02:40 PM
I carried a Glock 22 for many years. I tell beginners, and people on a budget, "start with a new OR USED Glock, you can't go wrong." If I was in some hypothetical imaginary situation where I had to choose from a pile of guns of unknown origin to fight with, sight unseen, I would grab the Glock. I am also the guy in here who is always yelling that if you shoot it the best, that's what you carry, REGARDLESS of size. Adjust your lifestyle and wardrobe to accomodate the right gun, not the other way around.

Having said that, I'm a 1911 guy. I just got spoiled to the way a 1911 feels and shoots, particularly the trigger. I thought that I needed to try newer and more current platforms, and after I tried many of them, I just didn't like or shoot any of them as well as I shoot a 1911. And the Glock 21 IS BIG. I could be wrong, but it's probably the biggest-framed auto on the market. If I wanted to use one, I would, I would adjust my wardrobe and carry it in 100+ degree summers, but it might well be the most difficult gun to do so with.

I'm less concerned with capacity. I used to live in MelGibsonland, where you use your carry gun for everything and it's not at all uncommon to need to fire all ....however many shots without reloading. I don't think that way anymore. If I'm doing a job that I can't finish with 8+1 and a reload in case of malfunction, I'm trying to do a rifle's job with a pistol anyway.

You listed a fairly extensive list of guns you already have. You also specified some experience with tinkering. I think that you will eventually get both. Of course if it was me, and I was going to get a big, bulky high-powered Glock, I would probably get a 20 in 10mm, to have it for open-carry general outdoor defensive use.

David E
May 19, 2009, 02:46 PM
It sounds to me like you're not ready for a 1911. If you get a cheap mil-spec version, you'll wonder what all the hype was about.

G-21's are not hard to hide with a proper holster and belt. Look at the "SF" version, as that points better for many people.

Other .45's to consider in your price range are the XD and the S&W M&P. Of these, only the M&P has 3 backstrap inserts to allow you to find the one that best fits your hand. This really only matters if the other two guns don't fit you and you like the M&P enough to pursue further.

Beagle-zebub
May 19, 2009, 02:54 PM
I'd second the suggestion of an XD-45, because the grip angle on Glocks turns me off; that said, it may be to your liking, so you would be best served by trying them all out yourself.

The Lone Haranguer
May 19, 2009, 08:45 PM
But I keep looking at Glocks in comparison to the 1911. 13+1 versus 7+1(8+1 with some magazines).
This is undeniable, but the G21 is awfully thick and bulky (at least for CCW), while the 1911, though heavy, is slender and flat.

cyclopsshooter
May 19, 2009, 08:46 PM
if you need more than three bullets youre dead

351 WINCHESTER
May 19, 2009, 08:50 PM
Pick the one that feels better in your hand.

GLOOB
May 19, 2009, 08:55 PM
If your fiancee loves the P-90 so much, you should have given her yours and then bought a G21. If YOU love the P-90 as much as she does, then I don't see any reason to buy a G21 for 5 more rounds. Both guns are reliable, accurate, and humongous. The G21 IS quite a bit lighter, but fully loaded, it's still a brick.

A G30 would at least be a significant improvement in the weight and size department, and it's probably more accurate, too.

The Lone Haranguer
May 19, 2009, 09:02 PM
The S&W M&P in .45 is less bulky than the Glock, optionally has no manual safety (even if it does have one it can be ignored) and its grip size and trigger reach (for me) is better. The magazine is "only" 10 rounds.

Straight Shooter
May 19, 2009, 09:56 PM
if you need more than three bullets youre dead

There are 3 things that can end a fight:
1 You go down
2 The BG goes down
3 You run out of ammo! See number 1.

I love the 1911 but carry an XD-45. If you go with the 1911 carry a spare mag.

I carry a spare mag for the XD but as malfunction insurance more than extra ammo. But the extra ammo can't hurt! :D

vigilant1
May 20, 2009, 06:05 AM
The best advice I ever received was from an Army Ranger armorer who suggested; "learn about your weapon." He was right. Had me doing complete tear downs and rebuilds in the dark.

I recommend: Jerry Kuhnhausen's books as well as Ken Hallock's.

They are invaluable and without peer.

Both Hallock's and Kuhnhausen's 1911 manuals are out of print as far as I know but they can be still found at Brownell's and Amazon.com.

I have; over the years, preformed many reliability procedures on my 1911 to my complete satisfaction. Including balancing timing (spring rates), milling and installing a custom trigger, polishing trigger action, de-horning, flared, lowered ejection port, and numerous other mods and procedures including mags and custom parts. Installation of Ed Brown, Bill Wilson, Dan Wesson, etc. parts.

I have fired literally thousands of rounds through this gun without incident.

If you are concerned the 1911, I would suggest a wheel gun of some sort. The Judge from Taurus maybe or a snubby Smith or Ruger.

Other guns are fine, like the XD or HK etc. but there is just something about the good ole 1911 that works for me. Perhaps it is the long and illustrious history or the pure simplicity and of course the .45ACP cartridge doesn't hurt either.

lexjj
May 20, 2009, 08:17 AM
You don't "fumble" with the thumb safety, it is where your thumb goes when you grip the pistol. "fumbling" with the safety is as big of a problem as someone forgetting where to place their trigger finger when they want to shoot -it just doesn't happen. Muscle memory will tell your hand where to go.

I whole heartedly agree. I have never understood the "fumble with the safety" argument. I find the 1911-style-frame-mounted-safety a real benefit because it provides a comfortable spot for my thumb that helps me control the pistol.

I have never fired a Glock, so I really know nothing about them. I own a full-sized Rock Island Armory Tactical. I doubt I would ever carry it concealed, though many people do. If I were going to carry a 1911, I would probably choose a commander size. I only know of one commander sized 1911 that is in your price range and that is the Rock Island model (it isn't technically a commander size, I think it is 4" even).

If the pistol is not for ccw, then the Chip McCormick 10 round magazines are very reliable. That would narrow the gap in your pistol ammunition arms race to 3 rounds (14 for the glock and 11 for the 1911). The 10 round magazines stick about an inch out of the bottom though, so it would be very difficult to conceal.

tipoc
May 20, 2009, 09:16 AM
I keep getting to that edge to buy one, but just can't take that leap.

Then don't.

1911s aren't for everyone. They don't suit everyone. They require commitment to training with that platform if you plan on carrying them. If you are concerned that you will be "fumbling" with the safety, well you have other options.

There is nothing wrong with having a 1911 that you occasionally take to the range while you rely on other guns for sd.

I won't tell you what kind of gun to get anymore than I'd tell you what kind of pants to wear. Get what you want to get and don't worry about it.

tipoc

GLOOB
May 20, 2009, 08:41 PM
I have never understood the "fumble with the safety" argument.

As applied to a 1911, I'd have to agree. But if you've ever handled a small auto with a slide-mounted safety, you might agree that it's a valid argument for some guns.

10-Ring
May 21, 2009, 12:39 AM
My first 45 was a Glock -- bought it on sale and couldn't pass it up at the time. Proceeded to blow it up w/ some bad reloads :( Glock fixed it but I couldn't trust it anymore. Sold it and soon after bought my first 1911. I still have my 1911s and don't have a 21

freakshow10mm
May 21, 2009, 12:47 AM
You blow up your gun with crappy unsafe handloads and can't trust the gun? It's not the gun, it's your reloads.

Cpt. America
May 21, 2009, 12:49 AM
Go with the 1911.

Straight Shooter
May 21, 2009, 12:57 AM
Proceeded to blow it up w/ some bad reloads Glock fixed it but I couldn't trust it anymore

Do you think that a 1911 would not have blown up? (not being sarcastic)

Dr.Rob
May 21, 2009, 12:59 AM
Glock 21 is a BIG gun. Size wise, you need big hands to paw a double stack 45. See if you can shoot a few more 45's before making your decision.

Dobe
May 21, 2009, 01:51 AM
Definatetly the 1911. I just picked up my 9th today. It's a Colt.

Sapper771
May 21, 2009, 02:32 AM
The Glock 21 is a big gun, I agree with everyone here. If you have the big mitts, it should not be a problem. I sold my G-21 and got a G-21 SF. Look for one in a gun shop and if they have both a SF and a standard G-21, compare them and see what you think. I was sold on the SF. After a while I sent the SF to a custom shop and had them do a grip reduction ( removed the rest of the palm swell on the back strap) to get that 1911 grip angle. The reduction was excellent. It had the grip angle of a 1911 and it had about the same grip size as a 1911.

I also own a couple of 1911s.........
Which happens to be the devil due to the fact that I sometimes cant decide which one to carry.

I got started shooting 1911s. Then after bad experiences, I went to Glocks and the bad experiences vanished. I got pretty decent with the Glocks and owned several different models. BUT.....I always drifted back to the 1911......

If you are not an avid or experienced shooter, I would recommend the glock to get started on. Then after you get proficient with the glock, you can move on into the realm of the 1911.
But, seeing that you already own some newer age polymer style pistols, you may want to go ahead and get a 1911.
I would try to find someone that owns both and shoot them to see which one you like the most. Maybe that will help your decision. If it is not going to be a carry pistol, then you wont have to worry about the weight and holster issue.

I guess you need to ask yourself "what am I going to use this firearm for ?"

Home defense? range only? carry pistol ? truck gun ? mantle ornament? BBQ gun ?

After you answer that question, then you can move on to the pro's and con's of each platform as they pertain to what you want to use it for.

Once one platform's pro's out weigh the other platform's pro's and the cons dont get in the way.....you may have your answer.

What is sitting next to me right now?????? My 1911.

I hope this helps you......I would just tell you to get both and let them fight it out, but then you would be like me, Glock 21SF in one hand, STI Trojan 1911 in the other.

Good Luck

lexjj
May 21, 2009, 02:59 AM
As applied to a 1911, I'd have to agree. But if you've ever handled a small auto with a slide-mounted safety, you might agree that it's a valid argument for some guns.
You and I are definitely on the same page. A frame-mounted safety is a benefit to me, but I hardly see the point for a slide-mounted safety. The only thing I use the slide-mounted safety on my P22 for, is to dry fire (it blocks the hammer, not the trigger).

Ridgerunner665
May 21, 2009, 03:52 AM
When it comes to 1911's...you get what you pay for.


They are not all created equal, just because they look alike on the outside...that does NOT mean they are the same.

Dobe
May 21, 2009, 09:54 AM
+1

That's the reason some people feel th 1911 is not realiable. The 1911 is an outstanding platform, if it is manufactured properly.

NG VI
May 21, 2009, 10:05 AM
My first 45 was a Glock -- bought it on sale and couldn't pass it up at the time. Proceeded to blow it up w/ some bad reloads Glock fixed it but I couldn't trust it anymore.

Really? I have to agree with freakshow10mm, if you made dangerous handloads and blew up your gun, why don't you trust the gun anymore? I assume since you sold the gun you stopped handloading as well?

If you blew it up and the company managed to get it back to working order without charging you half the cost of a new pistol, I'd say it's a pretty rugged design and a company with good customer service.

crebralfix
May 21, 2009, 10:58 AM
Being a heathen, I'll state that the Glock trigger is superior to the 1911 trigger. Even though the 1911 trigger can be tuned to be crisp, it's a hardware solution to a software problem. I can see this on a target/competition gun, but it's not really needed on a combat gun. The short reset is just fine and the trigger, while some complain about it, is just fine for combat use.

But...wait? How can that be? The firing system is more than just the trigger itself; it includes safeties. The grip and thumb safeties of the 1911 can be a problem in a panic situation, even if the user is highly trained and practices frequently. One of my instructors recently switched over to the S&W M&P 45 because he flubbed his draw and failed to deactivate the grip safety during a Tueller drill. This is a guy who used to shoot 15K+ rounds a year from his 1911's. Even Fairbairn and Sykes advocated pinning the 1911's thumb safety in Shooting to Live (looks like someone at Springfield Armory was paying attention).

Of course, every 1911 user here will claim they've never flubbed deactivating their 1911's safeties and will never do so. They're sure of it. I have no problem with it either; it's their gun and their life. If that person is confident with their system, then I see no reason to change. Same goes for the revolver guys; either way: CARRY A GUN!

Glock 21 Carry Evaluation:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=422851

Now, in my view in light of the "Glock 21 Carry Evaluation" article I did, I would say that the 1911 is a better CARRY gun where concealment is important. As a fighting gun, though, I think the Glock 21 is a better weapon.

If you want a competition gun, then the 1911 is king. But don't confuse the attributes of a good competition gun with a good combat gun. I think we Americans tend to frequently make this mistake because some attributes overlap and typical training tends to follow competition methods.

crebralfix
May 21, 2009, 11:04 AM
The G21 is not the largest gun on the market. The XD45 is about 1/4" (or 1/2"...cannot remember exactly) taller and is just as wide (which is why I sold my XD45). Even the SIG P220 is a tad taller than the G21 with the "new" eight round mags.

I would think that the HK USP SOCOM is probably larger than all of the guns mentioned.

freakshow10mm
May 21, 2009, 11:25 AM
To say a 1911 is not a combat gun is pure ignorance. It was designed as a combat handgun and it served our nations military in that role for 70 years. I suppose that makes it not a good combat handgun.

Dobe
May 21, 2009, 11:31 AM
This is a guy who used to shoot 15K+ rounds a year from his 1911's

Sounds like your instructor needs instruction.

Even Fairbairn and Sykes advocated pinning the 1911's thumb safety in Shooting to Live (looks like someone at Springfield Armory was paying attention).


I think you meant grip safety. If so, Jeff Cooper once felt the same, but later in life said it was a non-issue. He was right. It's a non-issue.

JTQ
May 21, 2009, 12:26 PM
If you already have a Ruger P90 and just want something easier to conceal, get a Ruger P345. Same caliber, same basic controls, just slimmer and lighter weight with a little more refinement. It is also less expensive than either the G21 or 1911.

I have a 1911 and a S&W 4506. While they are both single column .45 ACP's, weigh about the same, and the 4506 has a shorter barrel, in my opinion, the 1911 is easily more concealable and comfortable. Both have been very reliable, but there are so many after market parts makers for the 1911 you will find lots of crummy 1911 magazines that can cause you problems if you aren't careful.

I find the 1911 thumb safety very natural to use, but I will concede it is one more step than just pulling the trigger. On the other hand, I never even think about the grip safety, but I'm convinced it does a much better job of preventing accidental discharges than the trigger safety on the Glock.

Of the .45's already mentioned, I find the Glock 21 and even in SF form rather large. The ambi mag release on the SF seems to be in the way of my shooting hand. I like both the Springfield XD and S&W M&P .45's. Both feel comfortable in my hand and I would be happy with either. I find the Sig P220 a little chunky for a single column, though you may find it feels similar to your Ruger P90. However, while I think the decocker lever is a good idea, it just feels odd.

Jim

Dobe
May 21, 2009, 01:21 PM
If you want a competition gun, then the 1911 is king. But don't confuse the attributes of a good competition gun with a good combat gun.

I didn't even see this one. Read some history books. And yes, there are still several 1911 manufacturers that produce a solid handgun worthy of CCW. Colt, DW, S&W, and Springfield are such examples.

sparkyguy66
May 22, 2009, 07:12 AM
I love my Glock 21, but as said, if your mits can't wrap around it you won't be happy with it. I also shoot reloads in mine, but I have an aftermarket barrel for it for that. But, even if it did blow up due to the reloads, I sure as hell wouldn't blame the gun for it.:scrutiny:

crebralfix
May 22, 2009, 08:05 AM
I think you meant grip safety.

No, I meant thumb safety. See p14, third paragraph (copy-n-paste didn't come out right). See reference to "side safety catches permanently pinned down". The context there was safety, but it's just faster. Look at the design of the Springfield XD.

To say a 1911 is not a combat gun is pure ignorance. It was designed as a combat handgun and it served our nations military in that role for 70 years. I suppose that makes it not a good combat handgun.

Reread the post. It's a combat gun, but there are better ones out there.


Sounds like your instructor needs instruction.

Don't be an ass. Unless you've attended his course or know him, you've never seen the guy shoot. The point was that it was an epiphany for him. It really freaked him out.

Philip Marlowe
May 22, 2009, 08:15 AM
That you can't seem to buy that 1911 may be your sign. You seem to be happy with your other autoloaders so maybe, as one poster said, you're not ready to make the switch.

You could also go "half-way" and try-out a Para LDA, although I don't know if that solves any of your problems.

Good luck!

Also - agree with Crebralfix - John at FPF is a solid intructor.

71Commander
May 22, 2009, 08:48 AM
If you're concerned about capacity, try the Para p-12 (12+1), P-13 (13+1) or the P-14 (14+1).

This is a Springfield, but it's the same as a P-12.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/tucker13/sa-1.jpg

freakshow10mm
May 22, 2009, 09:17 AM
Reread the post. It's a combat gun, but there are better ones out there.

Then enlighten me to the better combat handguns that have served similar terms with a standing army.

Dobe
May 22, 2009, 09:42 AM
Unless you've attended an FPF Training course or know him, you've never seen the guy shoot. The point was that it was an epiphany for him. It really freaked him out.


He is one instructor with one opinion. Would you like for me to list half a dozen instructors who praise the 1911?

Be happy with what you shoot, but don't expect to convert the masses.

crebralfix
May 22, 2009, 10:23 AM
Yes, Dobe, he's an instructor with one opinion. Prior to the current opinion, he was one of the "die-est hardest, mostest 1911'est" supporters there could ever be. He figured out what I had been telling him for at least two years in 1.5 seconds with a target bearing down upon him. It wasn't a gun failure; it was human error under light stress...something he'd done many, many times before.

It was interesting to watch the mental gears turning, that's for sure.

freakshow10mm
May 22, 2009, 10:57 AM
If I lived my life by anecdotal incidents I wouldn't have a life.

Dobe
May 22, 2009, 10:57 AM
Yes, Dobe, he's an instructor with one opinion.



I believe that is what it all boils down to. You apparently have your favorite plaform, but neither you nor I are any more correct than the hundreds of qualified instructors who prefer their pet platform.

The 1911 has made its mark, and will continue to do so. Yet I am not naive enough to beleive that other platforms will not perform just as well in certain people's hands.

Be careful about quoting "professionals". Everybody's either got one, or is one.

JTQ
May 22, 2009, 12:13 PM
crebralfix, you wrote....

No, I meant thumb safety. See p14, third paragraph (copy-n-paste didn't come out right). See reference to "side safety catches permanently pinned down". The context there was safety, but it's just faster. Look at the design of the Springfield XD.

I'm sorry, but I'm a new guy around here, what is the reference document containing "p14, third paragraph"? That would be the first recommendation I've heard to "pin the thumb safety of a 1911". It seems like an unusual recommendation for a single action semi-auto.

I've seen recommendations (and pictures) to pin, or tie down, the 1911 grip safety, and even "The Answer" from Novak Custom that actually removes it, but I've never seen any reference to disabling the thumb safety.

Also, what is the context for the connection to the Springfield XD design?

Jim

GLOOB
May 22, 2009, 07:11 PM
What the heck am I saying? I love my G21. Buy one, and you won't regret it.

If talking combat, the thing I like least about the 1911 is the top-rounded slide. It might help for CC, but it sucks for point shooting. Even with the sights removed, I'll bet I could hit a pie plate at 30 feet with my G21 all day long.

mljdeckard
May 22, 2009, 10:17 PM
Yes. The 1911 is a non-combat handgun which has happened to have saved more soldiers' lives than any other.

I've had PLENTY of experience with both, I AM a soldier, and I'll flat tell you, if I were allowed to carry any gun I wanted to to combat, EVEN IF IT MEANT I HAD TO LEAVE IT THERE BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL TO RE-IMPORT IT, I would put my Kimber in my duffel with 500 rds of FMJ. I have no idea what alternate reality you live in that has let you convince yourself that ANY Glock trigger is better than a 1911.

Maybe YOU don't think that you will remember to flick the safety off. Not only do I disagree with you, I will remind you that those who define what a combat handgun actually IS, THE DOD, disagree with you as well. They will not adopt a handgun without a manual safety.

No system is foolproof. It's a question of finding a sufficiently talented fool.

weisse52
May 22, 2009, 10:42 PM
No system is foolproof. It's a question of finding a sufficiently talented fool.

Too funny, I think I need to add this to my sig line...

mljdeckard
May 22, 2009, 11:01 PM
You may use it. I got it from my Sergeant-Major.

David E
May 22, 2009, 11:30 PM
If "John" is such a "die-est hardest, mostest 1911'est" supporter, then why didn't he have his grip safety tuned to his hand?

It's easy to do, yet a "solid instructor" failed to do it.

Interesting.

wickedsprint
May 23, 2009, 05:17 AM
On paper the G21 wins.

Pun intended if you can shoot the Glock better.


I would venture a serious bet that most people can shoot the G21 better than a 1911, ESPECIALLY a 1911 priced within a 100 bucks of the Glock. Myself included.

I have heard of some small parts issues with the Glocks though and a good friend of mine had to have something in his Glock 19 pinned back in place. Glocks looks like the inside of a VCR when you remove their slide. I would probably break anything in the reciever if I tried to fix it.

If I had to choose only 1, I'd take a good 1911 in a standard GI configuration though.

Since I don't have to choose, I have both.

crebralfix
May 23, 2009, 11:06 AM
JTQ,

The book is Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes. You can get it from the 'net in PDF format or order it from Paladin Press.

The XD safety system is operationally the same as a 1911 with a pinned thumb safety (minus the actual safety, of course).

***

I see the "GUN PC POLICE" are out in force.

IT WAS LITERALLY ONE ERROR IN THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DRAWS ACROSS A LONG TIME.

But to disparage someone's skills without experiencing their instruction is just...silly. You, David E, are not high road. Unless, of course, you've attended a course. In that case, please PM me with your criticism and I'll talk to him about it.

***

Never mind what OTHER instructors say about what happens in force on force. Gabe Suarez comes to mind and he writes extensively about what happens in those moments. His articles are not hard to find and are published on his forum. A bit of research will reveal that other instructors say similar things about what happens under stress with regard to operating a handgun.

***

Glocks have problems too and those have been extensively discussed on THR. I documented the problems I have with the Glock 21 design in my "Glock 21 Carry Evaluation" thread. It's not perfect, despite Glock's marketing department.

***

*** is this all about you thinking I don't know the history of the 1911? Sheesh. The Glock 21 is just another iteration on the combat handgun concept. It's an improvement over that and other designs. Other guns have come along since the Glock design that include improvements...the adjustable grips of the S&W M&P comes to mind as an example. HK has interesting options that make the gun more configurable (like going DAO or "Hi-Power-like" in their USP line). Again, I see these as improvements since they give the buyer choice.

But, heaven forbid that someone QUESTION and THINK about the advantages and disadvantages of a GUN DESIGN such as the 1911.

crebralfix
May 23, 2009, 11:17 AM
Yes. The 1911 is a non-combat handgun which has happened to have saved more soldiers' lives than any other.

I've had PLENTY of experience with both, I AM a soldier, and I'll flat tell you, if I were allowed to carry any gun I wanted to to combat, EVEN IF IT MEANT I HAD TO LEAVE IT THERE BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL TO RE-IMPORT IT, I would put my Kimber in my duffel with 500 rds of FMJ. I have no idea what alternate reality you live in that has let you convince yourself that ANY Glock trigger is better than a 1911.

Maybe YOU don't think that you will remember to flick the safety off. Not only do I disagree with you, I will remind you that those who define what a combat handgun actually IS, THE DOD, disagree with you as well. They will not adopt a handgun without a manual safety.

No system is foolproof. It's a question of finding a sufficiently talented fool.

This post requires a separate response.



Just because the DOD makes a requirement does not make it the definitive definition of what something should be. There are many other considerations to take into account. In the case of the DOD's requirements for a handgun to have a manual safety, one primary consideration is liability. Yes, liability--at least according to the research I have done and commentary I have seen regarding that last proposal for a new handgun in 45 ACP. Additionally, since the DOD considers the handgun to be a secondary weapon, I can fully understand their reasoning behind including additional features such as a thumb safety. It's a way to be conveniently armed in a warzone...makes sense.

If you have different information, I'm very interested in seeing it.

Again, I do believe I'm seeing someone who is failing to objectively evaluate a variety of firearm designs. Your opinion certainly doesn't have additional weight just because you are a soldier.

mljdeckard
May 23, 2009, 12:16 PM
Interesting. The DOD requires safetys on all of their PRIMARY weapons as well.

I've carried over a dozen handgun models extensively. What you are suggesting, that a manual safety is a hinderance has never occurred to me. You need to learn your weapon system no matter what it is.

You can disagree with the DOD all you want. I frequently do. But THEIR point of view in defining equipment certainly holds more weight than YOURS. I cannot see how you are viewing it more objectively than THEY are. You have one class with one instructor you are entirely enamored with, and listen to what he says, even if it's contrary to Clint Smith. Massad Ayoob, and the many thousands of soldiers who have found the 1911 to work just fine in combat.

JImbothefiveth
May 23, 2009, 12:25 PM
if you need more than three bullets youre dead That's not true. For instance, there was one time where someone had to shoot someone about 2 dozen times before they stopped. Another that required at least 4 rounds of .45.

John Parker
May 23, 2009, 12:29 PM
Man, you guys need to calm down. This conversation is not worth getting so worked up about.

weisse52
May 23, 2009, 01:10 PM
This conversation is not worth getting so worked up about.

You wouldn't know that if you read some of these posts.

Some do, some talk about....

308win
May 23, 2009, 01:43 PM
Check out the S&W 4586 before you pull the trigger on your selection. The only negative is they are a large handgun.

mljdeckard
May 23, 2009, 04:33 PM
If all you need is three bullets, then why carry any more than that?

That's the statement of someone who has neither seen combat, nor participated in force-on-force training. No matter how easy they make it look in the movies, reality never gives you ideal circumstances when you are a life and death situation. You can take fire. You can return fire. You can wound. YOU CAN GET WOUNDED. You STILL have to stay in the fight until it's over. You must know how to continue fighting and how to run your weapon with one hand, EITHER hand, reload, clear a stoppage, and keep firing.

I was in a gun shop not too long ago, and a guy was looking at a Remington AR-10, and asking about the availability of magazines. A ....hunter type said, "Well, if you need more than one shot, you don't know what you're doing anyway." I asked him, "So, all of your weapons are single-shot, and you don't own any magazines for anything?" He stood there and looked stupid while everyone giggled.

A combat handgun, whether you're in town or on the battlefield, is what you use when everything else has gone catastrophically wrong. You can't use your rifle. You have no backup. There are no police anywhere near. All of your other plans to keep yourself alive have failed. YOU MUST ASSUME THAT YOUR WEAPON WILL MALFUNCTION AS WELL. There are no one-shot stops. you must train planning that your weapon will fail, your magazine will fail to feed, you will shoot the bad guy and he will keep coming. Everything must be redundant. But if you think you can do all of this with three rounds, go ahead and try it.

22LRFan
May 23, 2009, 05:02 PM
If the OP prefers a revolver for concealed carry, why doesn't he find a revolver in .45 ACP?

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