My new deep woods pack gun experience...

[RoostRider]

Lets start this out with a little background....

I grew up with all kinds of guns, hunting, and living in the deep woods in Northern MN. I feel comfortable with any handgun less than a .50 (I hate those things).

We have an area called the BWCAW (Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness), that I love to frequent. The BWCA is very very remote (around 1 million sq/acres I believe) with no mechanical, motor or road access (standard federal "Wilderness" designation). It is inhabited by all of the standards of Northern Minnesota, which includes amongst its large game Moose, Deer, Coyotes, Wolves, and Bear, as well as the occasional feral redneck with an attitude.

I have been deep woods remote camping in this area since a child, well over 20 years (not to date myself too much... lol). I have hunted the area as a kid through adult, and have even done some successful bear hunting in the BWCA (including taking a 450+ lb chocolate brown Black Bear).

It should be understood that this type of remote camping requires you to carry everything you bring across some pretty hazardous and sometimes quite long portages, and it has to fit into my kayak without causing problems or being vulnerable to loss or weather while still being accessible on the water. It also has to be able to deal with being beaten/droped/submerged without me or the gun getting too upset.

I have always carried a firearm with me on my non hunting excursions into the wild. The firearm I have chosen has changed many many times over the years. I have brought along everything from an AR-7 (ultralight pack rifle in .22- not enough power) to a 12 ga. shotgun (too large to pack well), to a S&W SS 686 .357 mag. (close but still a hassle to carry and weighs a lot), to a full size 9mm semi-auto (hard to deal with in the weather/dark/cold/rain/sleet/snow/mud).

I was consulting some threads on this board regarding firearm choice for long haul packing in deep woods.... I took the useful input and ignored the silly battles about caliber vs weight and thought about my requirements, my knowledge, and my experience and concluded that it was silly that I didn't have a snub nosed ultra light SS .38 special to carry with me on the water and trails.

I also wanted a better, more concealable SD gun for around the big city where I now live.

In comes my new Taurus 851 UL with covered hammer.... This is a snub nosed 5 shot SS/alloy .38 with a covered hammer (just a knurled top exposed on the hammer) which can be used in DA or SA (if your thumb can take it). I picked up a molded plastic paddle holster for my deep woods, and a IWB holster for in town (concealed)....

I can't be happier with my choice. This gun is really nice and light (lighter than anything I've brought before with the possible exception of the .22). It didn't cost a fortune, so I don't feel real bad about it being exposed to the abuse. It is stainless and alloy, so it wont rust or corrode easily. It is .38 special and capable of +P, so it has what I consider to be ample power for everything I might encounter (a little light for Bear/Moose, but considering I would only fire at point blank, it should do the trick). I am pretty happy with the quality of the gun (I have never owned a Taurus before). And it is small enough that I can keep it right there on my side even in the kayak and not get in the way. The molded plastic paddle holster holds that gun in there really really well (too well for normal SD carry in my opinion) great for on the rough trail and getting in and out of the Yak.

I have hunted Black Bear intentionally with a .357 mag., and I am comfortable that, used well this would do the job at the ranges we hunt Bear here. I think the .38 at point blank should have what I need without the overkill, overweight, oversize, of most other powerful options.

I don't want this to turn into a pi$$ing contest about proper caliber or the quality of brands. So this is just a thread about my experience, which is pretty extensive in the deep woods and with firearms. Hopefully someone will find it useful in looking for knowledge on this subject.

[David E]

Personally, I want my sidearm in the woods have more capability than any .38 snubby.

Waiting until anything is "point blank" before you think the chosen gun/caliber will be effective doesn't strike me as the best tactic.

I'm curious, tho, what exactly, do you anticipate this gun being able to do for you in the remote woods? Load of choice? How many rounds do you take with you? Maybe you'll come up with something I've not considered.

I hope your choice works out well for you.

.

[vicdotcom]

I personally believe that a .38 special is a fine choice for a woods gun. I have carried one in the woods for many years. Easily packable, concealable, and comfortable to hike with! I think that is the major requirement when thinking of a woods gun.

You will CERTAINLY be doing more hiking than you will be shooting.

For me I used it as a "in case I run into bandits" type deal or the occasional animal deterrant. I also agree with your "point blank" statement. Although I would probably shoot a warning shot at 30yards and at a 5 yard distance or so for a charge. From my experience, a gun while hiking is a "just in case" measure and not a daily use tool. Not a hunting implement or a hand cannon to blast everything away. But in an emergency where something is better than nothing. And of all my years backpacking, the onlytime I ever pulled it out was because I thought I saw a bobcat. But I did keep at ready when I heard other hikers I didnt know nearby.

I also carried it fully loaded and packed only 3 extra rounds.

[mljdeckard]

I told my first sergeant that a long gun was to bulky to camp and hike with. He didn't say anything, just walked away. (?!)

This is a long explanation to get to the part where you decided that you would rather carry something too small to really help you from the dangerous things you might encounter where you will be hiking. If it is too small to help you, it doesn't matter how comfortable it is. Wolf? Bear? The last thing I would think as I pulled the trigger is "Man, I really, REALLY wish I had brought something bigger."

[sophijo]

Mine is a SW 649 .357. Carries well and I don't notice the wt re all SS.

[vicdotcom]

If it is too small to help you, it doesn't matter how comfortable it is. Wolf? Bear? The last thing I would think as I pulled the trigger is "Man, I really, REALLY wish I had brought something bigger."
To each their own. But I would rather be thinking "This is what I have to use and This is what I need to do to get out of the situation". Wishing for something isnt going to help you a lick in a bad situation and places false confidence in something other than your own skills.

Part of hiking and backpacking is to hike and backpack. You will run into wildlife and should have a plan accordingly. You aren't there for hunting or shooting. If it was a hunting trip, then something more may be in order. Being mentally prepared and being resourcefull with what you have is part of the whole backpacking and hiking experience.

[GooseGestapo]

I concur.
My "kit" gun, is an S&W mod337Ti, with 3" bbl and adjustable sights. The one before they started putting the fiber optic sights on it.

With a +p loading of a 150gr Cast HP-GC, at ~900fps, it's a tad much on recoil, but very, very accurate, light, and there when/if I need it. I have a Pachmyer Gripper-J on it so it has an outstanding feel and controls the stout recoil well.

I've got a 642 (no adj. sights- but shoots very close to sights), a mod 37 .22lr, KelTec P32, 2.5" 686, Ruger Redhawk, and the #2 choice, a Ruger Sec.6-4" which rates a "heavy" second choice, even edging out the S&W 617 6".

It's the gun you got, when you need one!- that counts.....
If you got one, you probably won't NEED one.....
The 2-3/4lb Redhawk in .45Colt is NICE, but the 3" Ultra-lite "Smith" will be there when the need arises.
I hike and trout fish is some of the National Forrests of N. Georgia, Tenn. and N.W. N. Carolina. Some fishing holes require a hike in one day, hike out the next.

Like every where else, it's the feral humans that pose the greatest threat.....

[oldrevolverguy]

I believe whatever makes you feel confident and allows you to enjoy the trip is what you should carry. For me that is a Glock 29 with DoubleTap 200 grain Hornady JHPs. It is light, compact, the Tennifer finish is largely impervious to the elements, and with 11 rounds in the gun and a 15 round magazine on my belt, I feel confident in the field.

If the gentlemen who started the thread feels that way about his 38, more power to him.

[DBR]

RoostRider:

Given your choice of firearm, you might want to consider loading it with Buffalo Bore 150gr hardcast wad cutters. These at least have the penetration required for some of your potential targets.

Here: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=23

[DMZ]

I backpack in the Wenaha-Tucannon Wilderness and the Eagle Cap Wilderness.

My carry gun is a 3" .357. A Taurus 605. I carry full power 158gr XTP's with it.



Oh yeah, I also carry a Ruger Bearcat with a box of Rem Yellowjackets in an exterior pack pocket.

[RoostRider]

Thanks DBR... I will look into those... but I also reload, so I will be putting together 'special' loads for use in the woods.... a hardcast wadcutter might be just the ticket.... got any recipes I should look into?

As to the other question about my ammo choice, I think that covers it.... as for my first trip with it, all I had was some SD hollow points because I haven't had time to work up a load... not ideal I know, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick....

As to waiting until it is point blank.... well, the .38 will work reliably on anything smaller than a black bear.... I know bears pretty decent (no Timothy Treadwell mind you... lol)... I have experienced and hunted them my whole life.... I have yet to see one that wasn't more worried about me than I was about him... an occasional charge bluff happens out of fear, but that is not, in my mind, reason enough to shoot a black bear.... if he really does charge (very very remote... much less likely than a feral redneck), he will be on me quicker than snot, and point blank will be my only option....

Like a SD shooting, you can't just blast anything that threatens your 'personal space'...

I have seen Black Bears run away after being hit with a 30-06, and I have seen them dropped with a .357 or a well placed arrow from some pretty decent distance... so having a gun that will 'drop whatever I might encounter no matter what' just isn't going to happen where I choose to go for fun....

This one allows me to defend myself against any forseeable problem with relative confidence..... If I wanted to be 'perfectly safe' I would stay in a brick home behind a steel door....

[David E]

How many rounds of ammo do you take for it?

I've found the MTM "Ammo Wallet" to be a good way to pack extra ammo afield for my revolvers, backing up a speedloader or two.

[jpwilly]

While the Taurus 851 UL is a nice carry piece. And well placed 38's could be enough. I just don't think having only 5 shots before reloading would be ideal. I'd carry my Taurus PT145 Mil Pro 45ACP with fmj 230gr +P 10+1rnds first.

[DBR]

Any hollow point would be a bad choice for the range of uses you may face. Even in a heavier caliber. The BB 150gr wad cutter I recommended penetrates 20-24" in calibrated gello and produces a permanent wound channel approximately equal to 45 ACP 230gr ball ammo. They clock 860+ fps from a 1 7/8" S&W J frame. I think you will have a hard time equaling this with safe reloads. There is also the controversial issue of possibly using reloads for self defense against a human problem.

I have shot Russian Boar with 158gr Federal 357 mag HP ammo and the only shot that impressed the pig was the one behind its ear. I have all of the bullets showing picture perfect expansion.

With an under powered gun penetration and shot placement is everything.

Added: If the gun was my choice I would consider a Glock 27 with 180gr truncated cone flat points. That is if I was to be a minimalist in the preservation of life category.

[RoostRider]

DBR- I see your point..... I will definately take a look at those....

David E- I only brought 20 rounds.... again, store SD ammo, which I admit is no where near the best for the application.... 1 speed loader.... (not likely to be needed no matter what happens).. in the future I will be running something with a bit more penetration....

JPWilly- the 5 shots is something I had to compromise for weight considerations (it also makes it a better concealed gun in town).... not ideal for firepower, but again, we face the fact that nothing is perfect... even 10 rounds of 30-06 poorly placed might not stop an angry bear.

ScareyH22a- you clearly don't read real well.... as noted earlier, this purchase was well thought out over months.... not myopic (did you have to use a thesaurus for that one?).... this weapon has to be a compromise, because you and your long guns wont cut it in a kayak (unless you'd rather be unarmed because your weapon is broken down and in a bulkhead, when confronted with the biggest potential threat- the feral redneck with attitude)... this is why I get to go out and have these experiences and you get to armchair quarterback about my choices... lol.... so next time you dont want to 'be a dick' read the whole thing first, think about the reality of what you're proposing, and then just shut up.... that might help reduce your 'dickiness', as opposed to proposing ludicrous unworkable ideas that leave me WAY more labored and at least slightly more vulnerable most of the time.... while blatantly turning my thread into another stupid this caliber vs. that caliber babble fest, as I asked you not to.... (for the record, many many many 'adrenaline filled aggressors' have been stopped with a .38 special.... sorry to burst your bubble.... and some haven't been stopped with a .308.... comparison = failed pitifully)

Like I noted, there is no weapon made that can be portaged and used out of a kayak that can reliably kill a bear every single time.... not one.... the .357 so many would tout as the best gun for the problem has only marginally better characteristics at the ranges killing an aggressive bear would require, and only 1 more round in the chamber (reloading a gun while being gnawed on by a bear isn't likely going to happen), while being a bit heavier and bulkier and much more unwieldy in rapid fire.... a missed shot is nothing more than a loud noise, and that would have to have already failed before I would need a gun....

Not to be a dick, but I am betting I know a LOT more about the problems I might encounter in the deep woods of northern MN than you do... and probably a good shot more about what works and doesn't in a deep woods pack in situation (given I have been doing it my whole life).... including the bears, and what it might take to deter an attack from big game in the area (99.9% of the time a loud yell does the trick).... and even what it might take to kill one, if the need arose (being my hunting partners and I have killed them personally with everything imaginable aside from spears or jumping on their backs with knives)....

You might not feel safe with a howitzer in tow in the wilderness.... I'm not worried about how safe you feel.... as noted, this is my experience that brought about my choice and this is why..... and there will always be the yahoo who thinks he knows better.... always.... *cough*he usually has never been through it though....

I seriously have to laugh when I think of someone actually distance packing a large long arm because they are afraid of bears and think a long arm will help in some way... never seen it, and probably never will.... people who think like that don't last long out there in the deep woods... they are usually confined to within 2 miles of the car because they are "so prepared" they can't get any further.... lol

[ScareyH22A]

Sorry that I got you all butt hurt. If you feel that your thread title and your experience lead you to chosing a .38 makes any sort of sense, please feel good about your purchase. Like I said, I wouldn't. Have a nice day :)

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm not one of those who jumps on the "You need a 454 Casull or 460 Magnum in the woods" crowd. That said I wouldn't be comfortable carrying a snub nose .38 Special for woods protection either. I would think a .357 Magnum would be a better choice unless it was for 2 legged critters only.

I don't know what your budget is but S&W makes a few ultralight .357 Magnum revolver which carry 7 and 8 rounds, that would be my choice. I have no problem with the snub nose in the city for SD, I carry one. Since you said you want a light gun I think I would consider a S&W M327 PD (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=65225&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15706&isFirearm=Y). It's a very light 4" .357 Magnum that holds 8 rounds and weighs only 24.3oz. That sounds like just the right gun for what you are talking about. Load it up with some hard cast wide meplat rounds and you're good to go.

[Aka Zero]

I hear at some point some people sawed of mosin nagants into "pistols" Might make a good woods gun. And at $300 even after the tax stamp, it's a deal. Ammo is cheap too.

But personally, I would carry something with more rounds. If I have to take something down, 16 rounds of 9mm feels better than 6 shots of 38, 357, 44.
And you can reload 16 more if if it's still moving.

[loop]

I once shot a jackrabbit through the heart with a .45 ACP. The poor, disoriented animal ran straight at me and began trying to climb up my leg. I whacked it in the head with the slide of my pistol and it tumbled to the ground.

It was dead long before I hit it in the head. It just did not know it.

A gun is not a sure stop no matter what you have or where you shoot your target.

I dressed out that rabbit and it had no heart. It was running on adrenaline. It did not fall until I took out the central nervous system with a whack to the head from the slide of my pistol.

There is no such thing as "enough" gun. There is no such thing as a magic bullet.

Choose what makes you comfortable and practice your marksmanship. That is all you can do.

[DuLL_ExIsTeNz]

I see nothing wrong with a .38 for the BWCA. If it's good enough for a CCW, then it's good enough for the BWCA. While some would want something more potent or have more ammo, I also believe you'd have more chance having to use it against a feral redneck (as RoostRider put it) as you would against any game.

On a semi-related note, I'd love to get back to the BWCA. It's been quite a few years since I've gone up there.

[Holgersen]

You should bring a tank. That way you would have enough gun and you wouldn't have to walk anywhere.:)

I hike a lot as well and I would be more worried about human threats than animal threats. There are fairly simple ways to keep bears away. Namely a bear bell or just talking. I'm sure most of you guys know the other rules. Do wolves really bother people unless their rabid?

Just be thankful you can carry a firearm leagally in a place like that. Unfortunatly for me everywhere I can go hiking around here is a no go for firearms. Sure makes me feel safe being alone in the woods with no one to help me for miles around with just a walking stick to defend myself with.

[RoostRider]

Thanks guys..... I have to admit that this gun isn't 'everything and more' but I think Loop hit the nail on the head... nothing will stop everything, or even anything, everytime- so choices have to be made....

As noted previously, I have a SS S&W 686 that I used to take on some of these excursions, but it was cumbersome enough that it wasn't always where it was handy (no side strapping in the kayak without substantial discomfort, and a shoulder holster with that gun got to be a bit tedious quickly)... I felt that left me more vulnerable than a slightly less powerful round that never leaves my hip... especially considering the human factor being the most probable of issues....

AKA Zero- As I stated, I have carried a full size 9mm (16 +1) in the past, but it suffered much of the same problems as the big Smith revolver, and I didn't like having to deal with it in foul weather and given the conditions it encounters during a week or two in the deep woods.... I just had to wonder if a revolver wasn't more reliable in these conditions... I figure if 5 shots doesn't do it I'm probably well over screwed at that point anyways...

Here is a couple of pictures from a gun site of the weapon....

http://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/5104/955712081/wm_md_1291093.jpg
http://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/5104/955712081/wm_md_1291094.jpg

You can't really see the knurled hammer top in these photos, but the hammer is just covered on the sides and has a knurled end you can (feasibly) slide back with your thumb to function in SA mode (if you could also flick a lighter with a 12 lb pull...lol).. so the hammer cant hang up on a pocket lining/clothes or the such.. I might have preferred the DA only model, which has a completely concealed and covered hammer... that would keep gunk from getting in there....

One down side of this gun is the trigger pull.... I'm guessing 12-14 lbs, and that is a LOT.... but for the purpose it seems better to have a hard trigger pull (no safety on a revolver)... I am definitely going to have to practice my instinctive shooting with this piece because of that trigger pull...

Holgersen- Thankful I am, not only that I have such a great remote area so close, and that I can carry a firearm to protect myself, but also for the great hunting and fishing it provides.... everyplace has it's ups and downs, glad I get to use one of the biggest 'ups' MN has to offer... the wild...

ScareyH22A- no harm done man, my butt is just fine.... just next time read the thread, comprehend the thread, and then look up the definition of a word like myopic before you use it and you won't come across like the dick... as for your issue with butts, well, I don't know what to say man, aside from quit talking about mine...

I still get a good chuckle out of thinking about you portaging a long gun back and forth because of your fear of bear attack... and the fact that a long gun would be less useful than a .22 pistol at the ranges it would be needed for a bear (because the barrel crown of a rifle would be past the bears head)... clearly you don't get out in the woods much, or you don't go far from your car, which is fine, but makes you pretty ill equipped to make suggestions in this thread.... but eh, there's one in every bunch.... heck, I'm surprised there's only one in this thread.... lol

[amd6547]

As you have found out, most internet gun folks have zero knowledge of what it means to backpack with a firearm, and even fewer have paddled a kayak into the wilderness. I've done both, and say the 38snub is a great choice.
My second favorite is a Tokarev pistol in 7.62x25. It is a sturdy, simple, flat and compact battle-tested pistol with Browning pedigree. They are around fairly cheap, right now, the ammo is also available cheap, and the round has excellent penetrative abilities. It also can reach out to 100yds, if you know how to shoot. Eight rounds in the mag, and a couple spare mags makes for a light load.
Wish I could join you on a paddle trip up there...never made it to BWCA, but I have sea kayaked a lot.

[ScareyH22A]

RoostRider. I apologize for being a dick. Honestly. Sorry, I came into your thread and immaturely stirred the pot without reading and comprehending your original post. I'm sorry.

As for the Taurus firearm itself, I feel that there's comparably weighted guns with more firepower out there. According to Taurus, that gun weighs 16.8oz and is 6.5x1.346x4.28 inches in dimension. It's a 5 shot .38 special ofcourse. The best thing going for it imho is the price.

A Glock G26 weighs 26.10oz loaded with 10 rounds of 9mm. Approximately 9oz more than an empty Taurus. It's dimensions are smaller at 6.29x1.18x4.17. I personally hate Glocks but I just mention it as an example and these seem to be very popular. Their subcompact line comes in every common semiauto caliber including 10mm, .357, and 45GAP.

I personally carry a Kahr PM9 and it's even smaller and lighter with a long but very smooth DA trigger. If weight and size is such an issue, I think there are plenty of better choices out there is all I'm saying. Just looking out for your well being old man.

BTW, kayaking is fun fun fun! I've only had the pleasure of doing it a couple of times here in the Pacific in San Diego but I can't wait to get back out there. Doing it in the wilderness, I'd be content just dying right then and there.

[Ed Ames]

If it is accurate it sounds good to me.

I have fired a smith airweight .38sp that could reliably touch targets out to 100 yards. It wouldn't be my first choice (I like my revolvers in .45 or .32) but I know I could hunt deer with it as well as some folks with a .460.

[DuLL_ExIsTeNz]

Hey RoostRider, where are you from in northern MN, if you don't mind me asking? I grew up in Grand Rapids (MN, not MI) and my parents still live up there.

[RoostRider]

Scarey- now we're getting somewhere.... apology accepted... if I had better self control I would have just ignored you.... lol... so please accept my apology as well....

Yeah, there are better guns out there for the job (certainly not a long gun in this case), but one serious consideration was the price as well.... I don't have heaps of cash around and I feel a lot better about beating on a Taurus than I do a Glock or other similar priced gun... that coupled with the want for a non-semi-auto for the reasons above led me to the Taurus.....

This is my first Taurus, and my first .38 special.... who knows, maybe someday I will find something better for the job... or maybe I'll get eaten by a bear.... lol..

I only look at this gun as another trick up my sleeve as opposed to the be all, end all... I know it leaves a lot to be desired if I encounter a rabid bear or moose, but I also know those chances are slim enough that I would camp without a gun if I had to (as you noted, dying out there might be one of the best places to take leave of this planet)... with this gun I have a better chance in a bad situation, and it packs well enough that I can keep it right there at my side the whole time...

I may change my mind.... especially if this gun develops any problems (I haven't shot it enough yet either), or if I see any demonstrated need for more power...

Ed Ames- we will have to see about accuracy.... I have not put any rounds through this gun in a controlled environment where I can accurately judge

Dull- I grew up between Virginia and Ely... no doubt you are aware of the "icebox of the nation", Embarass Minnesota?.... I now live in the big city though (if you call St Paul big).... but I still get out there a lot... can't get that out of your blood once it's in there.... lol

[RoostRider]

Hey DBR, can you tell me why it is you would think those rounds the best for the varying targets I might encounter?

I understand the wadcutter because you want penetration, but wouldn't a FMJ have the same result and be able to be pushed harder out the barrel? Those bullets are all non +P loads (which I would not go +P with a non-jacketed bullet anyways).

Also, why would it be hard to build a load similar to those on my own press?

[DuLL_ExIsTeNz]

Dull- I grew up between Virginia and Ely... no doubt you are aware of the "icebox of the nation", Embarass Minnesota?.... I now live in the big city though (if you call St Paul big).... but I still get out there a lot... can't get that out of your blood once it's in there.... lol

Yeah, I've been up that way a few times. I now live in the Twin Cities area as well. Yesterday it was 38 degrees in Grand Marais and 99 degrees in the southwest portion of the state. Ahhhhh, gotta love MN. :D

Enjoy the Taurus. I almost bought one of those, but as you've noted, the trigger pull is substantial.

[BlindJustice]

Lightest I could go is a Smith & Wesson
Model 60 3" bbl. Adj.rear sight in .357 Mag.
My carry ammo with it, is .38 Special +P 125
gr. Gold Dot JHPs Double Tap rates @ 1135 FPS
out of a 4" Bbl. It's all stainless steel but 24
oz. weight empty. I like it's balance and pointability
and has the option of .357 Mag although I'd like a
bit bigger grips, say Herret's Troopers.

I also like the new offering by S&W the CCO fromat
variant, with Stainless Steel slide, Commander sized
with the scandium Officers' Frame - 28? oz.

Either one and shot cartridges are available.

I'm in SE Wash, but the Clearwater forest -
western edge of the Rockies is less than 20-30 miles
towards teh east .

To each their own.

Randall

[David E]

If I had to carry a lightweight .38 snubby for a woodsgun, I would load it with 158 grain SWCHP +P

After all, the main purpose as discussed in this thread is for the rabid redneck. With that in mind, I'd want the best performing bullet for that particular beast.

If I also wanted or expected the .38 snub to pull "survival gun" duty (presuming I could hit with it at distance) I'd also carry some 148 full wadcutters for small game.

I'd maybe toss in a few shotshells, too.

One thing I would not do is expect a .38 snubby to be bear stopper, so I wouldn't worry at all about what the best "bear load" would be for an Ultra Light .38 snub.

[HB]

There are fairly simple ways to keep bears away. Namely a bear bell or just talking
Talking to myself alone in the woods also works quite well for keeping away human predators :D

[ShadyScott999]

This is my answer. In a Kramer belt scabbard.

http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu106/shadyscott999/SW629-4.jpg

[MCgunner]

.38 works fine as a pack gun. I prefer a .357 in bear country, but hell, I've seen bears, in the circus. :rolleyes: I've hiked in New Mexico and saw a bear once, but ain't like I'm real worried about getting ate and a light .357 is enough, anyway. .38 around here is plenty. Good for personal defense, good for tranquilizing large sharks before boating them, good for an alligator if he gets too close. I have a little M85SSUL I carry concealed whenever I'm out just fishing or kayaking a bayou or something. Hell, around here, a .22 kit gun is plenty except that I'd rather have a .38 on me for 2 legged predators, which are 99.99 percent more likely to give me a problem than a gator or something.

That does sound like a fun place for a kayak, BTW. My wife gets on me about getting that kayak, but they're all the rage around here and add to my fishing experiences if nothing else. You get a little wetter in the yak than a canoe, so the stainless is much appreciated by me, too. Been so danged windy down here, though, I haven't had the yak out this spring. When it ain't windy, I seem to be flooded with work. :rolleyes:

I carry a Kel Tec daily normally, swap for the Taurus now and then, but always carry the Taurus when going out in the boat or yak. Too much chance of it getting wet and the little .38 is all I need.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=43447&d=1155431302

[ReelFaith]

I would probably carry my Ruger LCR and my 45 M&P. I like the idea of having two better than one.

[Cpt. America]

Sounds like a Ruger SP101 in .357 mag would do the trick. Its small relitivley light weight and can handle serious abuse. I would never waste my money on just a .38 I have always bought .357 mags and just shot .38s when I feel like it. Why limit yourself when for a few bucks more you could own the .357.

[Dr.Rob]

A stainless 5-6 shot small frame wheelgun in 357 is probbaly the best choice for a hiking/fishing/woods gun overall. Make sure you keep a POSITIVE retention holster. Your canoe gets upended by a moose/rock/spastic current and you go in the drink you'll cuss a blue streak for losing a gun.

As for ammo? No more than 2 reloads. When I'm hiking I have it for defense or signalling or food, to be used only in an emergency.

[Brian Williams]

I built this to be a woods walking gun. it started life as a S&W 65 with a 3" barrel, I put a 4" pencil barrel from a S&W 64 and had it moonclipped. It makes for a great carry gun and will handle much of what a 357 will put out.
In this pic is a Ruger Sp101, S&W 13 3" and my S&W 65.
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45571&d=1159536994

[M&PVolk]

I think you will like your gun. Myself, I am a fan of the .44 for woods carry. That said, I have a long barrel Redhawk that I usually take with me. I wouldn't mind having a shorter 3" barrel, though. If I find one, I am definitely going to pick one up.

[Johnny Guest]

RoostRider, it appears you've settled on your sidearm. Your choice might not be mine, but your posting indicates you've given thought, not only to weapon but tactics as well. I believe that a sportsman with a less-than-ideal weapon and a good plan might well prevail over one with a .454 Magnum and little thought about how to use it properly.

Concerning your choice of ammunition - - You say your snubbie is rated for +P pressures. Member DBR makes a really good point about hollow points being a poor choice in your situation. He states, "With an under powered gun penetration and shot placement is everything." Well said! Any expansion of a .36" bullet reduces penetration, and especially if the bullet has to punch through a significant amount of fur and thick skin. Another factor is that many animals purposely wallow in mud as protection from biting insects. Dried mud in thick fur is daunting to a heavy knife blade wielded by a strong man. How much more so, to a swift, lightly constructed bullet?

Several members have stated they'd carry 125 gr. JHP loads. One or two more mention the 158 gr LSWCHP+P load. This is my primary choice for snub nose revolvers, and it's a great urban anti-personnel load. Both, however, are still hollow points.

DBR mentions a good Buffalo Bore non-HP load, a 150 gr. full wadcutter the company rates at 850 fps. I like the BB cartridges, and carry their HPs for street defense. That particular load, however, is standard pressure, and has a full-caliber meplat, which tends to limit penetration.

A better choice for your purposes, I submit, would be the Remington number 38S14 load. It is a +P 158 gr. lead semi wadcutter NON-HP, rated at 890 fps from a four-inch barrel. This is the solid version of their number 38S12, the famous FBI load, one of the best of the 158 gr LSWCHP+P cartridges. The non-HP load is harder to locate than the HP version, and you may need to special order it.

If you're a handloader, you can pretty well duplicate this last Remington load, using a 158--160 gr. LSWC with 5.2 gr. of Unique powder. Speer says they got 919 fps from a 6" S&W, and Lyman says 982 fps with 5.3 gr. from a 4" barrel on a Universal receiver. These are published loads, but are definitely +P and NOT for use in non-+P rated revolvers. In a situation similar to yours, I'd be tempted to carry my 4" Colt Cobra, stoked with a hard-cast LSWC and 5.0 of Unique.

Whatever ammo you choose, I hope you'll put in a lot of practice with your little revolver.

I've never shot a big animal with a .38. This is just my best guess. I do know one man who stopped a grizzly bear with the fifth shot from a 4" .38 Special, over 40 years ago. He used High-Speed RNL loads. His rifle, and one of his legs, was pinned beneath a dead horse, so it was one of those "have-to" situations.

Best of luck,
Johnny

[MCgunner]

Sounds like a Ruger SP101 in .357 mag would do the trick. Its small relitivley light weight and can handle serious abuse. I would never waste my money on just a .38 I have always bought .357 mags and just shot .38s when I feel like it. Why limit yourself when for a few bucks more you could own the .357.

Now, as a pure WILDERNESS gun, sure. Carried open an SP101 is small and light on the hip. But, I carry my little Taurus as a CCW, in a pocket. I had an SP101 for a while. It felt like a cinder block in my pocket, had to be carried on a belt. Far as open carry hiking guns go, though, I have a very nice and very accurate 4" Taurus 66 in .357, a K frame sized gun. It's nickle finished, not stainless, but rugged enough in a flap holster. This gun succeeds a Security Six, a M19, and a Rossi M971. It is the most accurate of the medium frame .357s I've owned with both .357 and .38 special.

I own other guns that would work. I have a little M68 Rossi 3" .38 that's a neat little outdoor carry where I don't need magnum power for anything. I have a rather light Ruger P90 in .45ACP, stainless, very accurate, accurate enough for outdoor carry. I have a stainless 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt which I handload for if I REALLY need horsepower, but it's 40 ounces worth of gun on the hip. I have carried it in bear country and it wasn't too bad a weight to tote on a gun belt. But, around here, I just pocket carry and my little stainless UL .38 is my gun of the day if I'm going fishing or going to be around water or outdoors. I even put hogs down with it in the trap. .38 +P seems to work as good as .357 magnum for that.

If I get another SP101 (fine revolvers, very rugged design), it'll be a 3" gun this time. 3" guns offer more sight radius and a little more horsepower while not being any harder to carry than the shorter barrel since pocket carry isn't an option. I have a 3" Taurus 66 that is only about 5 ounces heavier and offers a sixth round, though, for IWB carry. But, it's blued and the grip frame is bulkier to tote under a T shirt. The SP101 is easier to conceal with a Hogue grip on it, nice little guns.

[David E]

He states, "With an under powered gun penetration and shot placement is everything."

Agreed. Accuracy with a .38 snubby is difficult for most people to achieve. I'd want basketball size groups @ 25 yds, double action, as a minimum. If the shooter can't do that, then another gun should be considered.

Another factor is that many animals purposely wallow in mud as protection from biting insects. Dried mud in thick fur is daunting...

One or two mention the 158 gr LSWCHP+P load. This is my primary choice for snub nose revolvers, and it's a great urban anti-personnel load.

Remember that the OP's primary reason for carrying the gun is for the "rabid redneck." While they, too, may wallow in the mud, I don't think it would affect the 158 grain LSWCHP+P too much.

I see a trend of trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. IE; taking a gun that's best suited for a specific purpose (a lightweight, extreme close range defense gun) and attempting to magically transform it into an all-around woods/bear defense gun simply by loading it with different bullets.

[BlindJustice]

Bear encounter, early '60s in the high Cascade
mountains of Washington State. We were hiking in
to a high mountain lake. The lead hiker Terry told us
he came around a bend and He met the black bear.
He yelled "BEAR!" and came back toward us, the Black
Bear took off in the other direction.

After making camp and getting the food hanging correctly
and all that we teen boys and the two Dads talked around the
campfire for a while. The next morning as we fished one
side of the lake the Black Bear was doing his fishing on the other
side of the lake. Great fishing as we were the first ones in
there.

Randall

[MCgunner]

Agreed. Accuracy with a .38 snubby is difficult for most people to achieve. I'd want basketball size groups @ 25 yds, double action, as a minimum. If the shooter can't do that, then another gun should be considered.

My M85 has done some good shooting. At 25 yards, I'd rather cock the hammer, but I can put all my shots into 6-8" at 25 yards off hand DA. The DA on that thing is one of the best triggers I've ever picked up out of the box. No rabid redneck better mess with it. :D I don't really fear bears, especially since there isn't a black bear within 400 miles of me. They all got shot out around the turn of the century, probably a lot of 'em with .38-40s.

[John Parker]

Why is this such an issue? The OP is an experienced outdoorsman, and he's carrying what he's comfortable with. Big deal!

[redbone]

RoostRider:

Absent a brown bear threat, I often carry a 2" j-frame in the backcountry and when on the water. My concerns are mostly two-legged, not four. I usually carry two reloads (10 rounds). I have few other handguns to choose if I want (and sometimes do), from .22 rimfire to .44 mag, but it's the .38 that's usually with me.

Mine is a S&W 637. I added Crimson Trace grips, which I am totally satisfied with. My accuracy with the iron-sights is okay, but I can hit a dinner plate at 50 yards with the laser. It is of no use in bright sunlight, of course.

I believe you have made an excellent selection.

Good luck.

RBH

[DBR]

RoostRider:

1) BB says they use special powders to get the 850fps out of a 2" barrel at standard pressure. I know you can go +P but I doubt you will get better performance. Their powder is also flash suppressed.

Tim Sundles of BB told me they did a lot of development work on the bullet to get a very hard bullet that would not break up on impact with bone etc. If a soft bullet mushrooms or deforms say on hitting gristle or bone then you are back to inadequate penetration.

2) I have tested the Winchester version of the 158gr +P solid from a J Frame. Mine clocked 800fps +-. The 38 spl loads designed for a 4" barrel seem to lose a bit more than one would think in the 2" gun.

3) As I wrote, the 150gr BB penetrates 20-24" in gello. Also, the full diameter, very hard wadcutter makes a wound channel almost twice as large as the semi wadcutter shape.

Contrary to popular belief, the wound channel of a semi wadcutter is more related to the nose diameter than the shoulder diameter. Tests have shown the tissue tends to be stretched outside if the shoulder by the wake from the nose. The shoulder does not contact the tissue in a meaningful way, very similar to what a round nose bullet does.

[RoostRider]

Johnny Guest.... thanks for the load info... I will check my manuals and work up a load (I think I have some Unique around).... part of my concern about DBR's suggestion was that it was standard power, and I had to wonder if there was some reason behind that selection...

I know I wont be feeding this gun a regular diet of +P rounds, even though it is rated for them it seems a bit on the light side (for the sake of my hand as well as the gun)... but my initial thought was +P for the woods and SD..

I have never run wadcutters at +P levels.... always just built up plinker loads with the WC's..... will leading be an issue? probably not given it would only be 5 rounds max before a good cleaning I would guess....

Just to set the record straight- it was 'feral' rednecks.... not rabid ones.... lol... the rabid ones stay in the bars up there and I stay out of those bars, because the dangers there are FAR higher than the risks in the woods.... lol .....

Clearly you can never account for every possibility and still be able to carry your pack across a portage. When you can only reasonably carry one gun, and even that has to be small, every gun is a compromise of some sort and you just have to make your choices and, as several have noted, have a plan to work with what you have....

I have chosen to be more comfortable on my guaranteed portages, and have a plan to work with the remote possibility of an unpleasant bear/moose encounter (remote even given we have HUGE black bear populations up there... it's pretty rare they are even seen, much rarer for them to confront a human, but it happens)

You guys have all been very helpful.... even if you disagree with my choice you give solid advice that clearly is what you really believe.... mostly this thread was to point out what I chose and why, not to debate the whole caliber thing...

[vicdotcom]

not to debate the whole caliber thing... LOL eventually every thread not about a .45 or .357 ends up debating calibers! But I still agree that for long hiking trips or backpacking more than a few days, especially kayaking, you need to think about comfort and adaptability for ALL your equiptment. For a dayhike, sure you can go with a larger gun, but for some serious hiking you need to be comfortable in carry and use.

[SharpsDressedMan]

Any handgun, even a .500, should be easier to pack than a rifle or shotgun. A well designed pack distributes the weight it carries for maximum comfort. Carry any handgun you deem powerful enough for your needs.

[JHK94]

Easier to pack, sure, but those big pistols are hard to carry comfortably with easy access, at least in my experience of long hikes.

As for the OP; great choice. I hate whittling my backpacking weight down by chopping off the end of my toothbrush just to lose any weight savings to a heavy gun.

[336A]

RoostRider, I feel that for your applications you weighed the pros and cons and made a sensible purchase in the end. I too spend lots of time in the woods either hunting or just bumming about. A lot of the territory I frequent also has Black Bears however my 2 most carried sidearms is either my 4" S&W M10 or M60. When In the woods I've found that a good cast SWC does well for most applications. But I also carry a speed loader with 5.3gr of Unique under the same bullet when a little more oomph may be needed.

As has ben noted already the BB 150gr wadcutted would be hard to beat as well. This can be closey duplicated with a 148gr DEWC ( not a hollow based wadcutter) with the max charge of unique as listed in both the Speer #12 & #13 manuals. As I type this I have some of the afore mentioned wadcutter loads ready for range testing. Good luck to you and I hope that your purchase gives you lots of back country service.

[Wolfeye]

RoostRider, it sounds like we've come up with similar conclusions to what makes a good woods gun. I grew up in SE Alaska and now live in Washington. I think it's fun to disappear into the woods for a week at a time to do some hiking, paddling, scrambling, and maybe some foraging.

I've never had a bear encounter. I've run into two packs of wild dogs. I've been shot at by drunks once that I know of. I've gone from occasionally packing a rifle, to sometimes carrying a k-frame .357, to often carrying a 2" SP101. Even after all that downsizing, it felt like I was carrying a deadweight brick that would get caught on brush, and it still felt like I was packing too much gun given the history of what dangers I've come across.

About a month ago I handled a Smith model 642 for the first time and paid for a brand new one on the spot. I'm going to pick up a roto-paddle holster so I can switch between carrying it on my pack hipbelt and my pants. My plan is to handload some 140-160 gr hardcasts in +p and enjoy hiking with my new gun. :D

Best of luck!

[DBR]

You might want to consider one of these for carry. I own a couple of sizes and use them often.

http://store.thewilderness.com/index.php?cPath=70_51&osCsid=8ln9ngu7odfgabmglns2etk3a0

[kludge]

Sanity prevails!

[David E]

I dunno........."rabid redneck" just seems to capture the image pretty well.......and it's fun to say!

[David E]

I've been shot at by drunks once that I know of.

That you know of? Odd, I'd think you'd remember being shot at !

:D

.

[RoostRider]

DBR- thanks for the additional info on that round....

That holster/bag looks like a winner, even for some concealed carry applications.... being a contractor, I just can't accept even the remote possibility that a client might see me with a gun on site (better to just not have that discussion than to potentially loose jobs over ideological differences).... at the same time, I do work in some pretty shady neighborhoods and I don't feel too safe with the gun in the truck out front...

I have been battling this issue for a while now and haven't found anything that looks like a piece of professional gear that can hold my gun.... my briefcase is a no go, since I often need to access it on site... in the waist isn't worth the risk of a client seeing it...

It looks like that thing would strap right onto my tool belt, or sit in my breifcase, without anyone ever being the wiser....

[BCRider]

It's been an interesting read on this thread. And having done a few multi day canoe trips with buddy's in Algonquin park in Ontario I can attest to the need to shave those oz from the load.

For three years in a row we did these 4 or 5 day trips. On one of those the fourth dropped out and left me high and dry. Instead of giving up I rented a river runner kayak and went anyway. Turned out that other than having to pack all my own gear the kayak was better on the one day of choppy water than the other two in the canoe were. I felt like a little U-boat on the North Atlantic as it puched through the waves but stayed level while the other two were pitching to and froe... :D

Anyhow enough reminiscing. I don't have any personal experience on rounds for you BUT there was a good article on penetration and wound channel for full wadcutters that I ran across a few months back. Just don't ask me where to find it. Bottom line was that the full wadcutter pentrates well thanks to not mushrooming much but the blunt end tends to set up a shock wave ahead of it and it forms a damage channel that is much bigger than the bullet. Not as good as an magnum driven HP but much better than a round or SWC nosed bullet. And since there's debate on the reliable expansion for HP's driven by Spl or +P charges a full wadcutter may prove to be a good compromise. So a heavy 148gn full wadcutter with a +P charge behind it would appear to make a lot of sense.

Time to get or load up some ammo and try it out on a turkey carcase? I'd be willing to help you destroy the remains through careful exposure to heat and burying in gravy..... :D

[Zerodefect]

I carry a Glock 23 with an extra mag from the 22. I've encountered many bears and am more worried about 2 legged critters. The only problem is my Glock 23 weighs more than my tent, more than my sleeping bag and backpack combined. 1 week of gear is only 25 pounds for me, total. It seriously stinks carrying 2 pounds of dead weight.

In all the backpacking I've done people are still the only scary thing I've seen in the woods.

Most bears are like big, incredibly intelligent dogs. I've had black bears walk right through my camp at night. I was too tired to shoo them away. I've had one that was getting a little too used to people "fake charge me". Just stand your ground. We had to have a ranger trap and relocate that one. I don't see them as a real threat.

They will actually open your cooler at night, eat, and close up the cooler so it looks like they were never there. Even had them stick thier nose into an occupied tent like a curious giant racoon.

Bears, aligators, mountain lions (might have been a cougar, it was night), rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, scorpions, are all overrated. never had trouble with them. Shoot, you can step right over rattlesnakes. I was terrified of these at first, just like any sane person in the woods by themselfs, that wears off. People on the otherhand.........

Anyway, if you have to shoot a bear....your basically screwed. Even with a 12 gauge slug or an ar15, you can't be sure of stopping the bears attack well enough to save yourself. Guess we have to try still, but .38 vs .357 is hardly going to make much of a difference. Either God is on your side and you get a lucky shot in, or your toast.

Keep in mind most hunters that have shot bears killed them while they were snacking on berries at a distance. Not when they were hell bent on tearing up some hikers to save their young (Griz). I'm not convinced that a .357 will stop an agressive bear reliably. I'm not convinced anything will. If a deer can run half a mile with its heart blown to bits, I don't want to see what a bear thats within 50 feet can do.

[m2steven]

I think a 38 is a good choice. You make choices everyday and weigh the outcomes. What is the worst thing you'll encounter? Hungry wolves, bear; some creep with ill intentions. I'm pretty sure that a pack of wolves will scatter at the first loud report of gunfire. You can't protect yourself from a man with a rifle, so why worry about that? Most United States animals, including pack animals don't have the stomach for gunfire. I would caution differently if you were near Yellowstone or Estes Park. But you're in wolf country. Just stay away from the rabid ones. And don't try to ride a moose.

I hope you enjoy/enjoyed your trip.

[MCgunner]

Woohoo, well, next time I'm in Big Bend, well, after February, I can carry concealed thanks to a rider on the credit card bill Hussein signed today. :D I reckon out there, having a .357 concealed in a fanny pack would give me better long range capability on drug runners if I got in a bind. Of course, I'd still be putting a 4" revolver against, probably, AKs, but heck, it beats a .38 and it has to be concealed, can't carry open.

I load 5.0 grains Unique behind a very wide nosed 158 Lee cast tumble lube design SWC. It clocks 220 ft lbs (I'd have to look up the velocity, the energy sticks in my head) which should put it slightly into the +P range, but very mild +P if so. I think that bullet will do anything that needs gettin' done.

The thing about the nose stretch of the wound cavity is spot on, too. I've seen this in deer with the gas checked version of the above SWC. Neat little 3" path of tissue distruction and complete penetration through the lungs. Now, that bullet was fired from a 6.5' .357 magnum, but it just shows that big flat nose SWC was working as advertised. :D That deer went about 20 yards with a BIG blood trail and piled up. If I ever had to shoot at a bear with a .38, I'd be shooting for the head, tough.

I put a different front sight on my .38 Taurus, had a dove tail milled for it. Look closely at the pick on post number 34 and you'll see it. Set me back about 80 bucks, but I like black sights better than shiny ones and I wanted the wire. Now, it was a smith out of Florida that did it. I can't remember the name or number, so no need asking, sorry. The sight has an elevation wire as used by Elmer Keith. We used to shoot at a 14" gong made from a 12" slip blind (you oil field and chemical plant workers know what it is) and I could ring it just about any day 3 out of 5 from 100 yards using that elevation wire to help in the hold over Elmer Keith style. .38 snubs can be very effective for the man that knows what he's doing with one. Takes practice.

[Isher]

Well, if you're gonna want to pack a pistol,

The High Noon Undertaker shoulder rig fits beautifully

Under the Gregory GForce mid-sized pack, which,

If I pack it just right will give me 8 days on the trail

@ just over 33 lbs. (3 season use; winter is different).

Both the holster and the 2 spare clip pouches fall naturally forward/inboard

- just right - of the shoulder straps and don't interfere

With normal backpacking, bushwhacking functions.

It is just as if you were in normal CCW mode;

Draw and aimpoint time are probably slowed just a hair

By the constriction of the pack's weight and shoulder straps.

And, obviously you are loading your torso and not your hips, which is good.

Another plus is that when you dump your pack for lunch or to set camp or

Whatever, the pistol stays with you.

A final freebie, the rig fits just as well under my chestwaders

When out fishing.

The weapon?

CZ P01 in 9mm, 14 round magazines.

A remarkably light, reliable and accurate semiauto.

And its polyester finish could care about weather.

Form follows function.

isher

[kmrcstintn]

at this point, based on what I have in the collection, I would choose my Uberti Cattleman (1873 SAA clone) w/ 5 rounds of Remington 225gr lead semiwadcutters (pointy firing pin mounted on hammer means an empty chamber underneath the resting hammer) in my Uncle Mike's Sidekick nylon/codura hip holster; extra ammo is carried in an Uncle Mike's nylon/codura pistol cartridge holder with 2 rounds of CCI snakeshot and 10 Remington lead semiwadcutters;

if I had money to spare I would opt for a Ruger SP101 in .357 mag w/ 3 1/16" barrel loaded with 5 rounds of .357 mag 158gr hard cast lead semiwadcutters or Federal CastCore 180gr hard cast leadheads; same type holster; same type extra ammo setup, but using CCI .38 spl snakeshot and matching .357 mag leadhead ammo

[DBR]

If I were to carry a minimum woods gun I think I would chose the Ruger SP101 3 1/16" 357 mag revolver and use Buffalo Bore 180gr FP hardcast ammo. That is after I made sure I could handle that combo effectively.

That gun with a XS Big Dot front sight in a Wilderness SafePacker would be hard to beat within its limits.

If I were to carry it for self defense I would load it with either WW 145gr Silver Tips or Speer 158gr Gold Dots.

[hangovur]

I didn't want to read through all the responses, so sorry if this has been asked, but have you considered a charter arms bull pup in 44 or 357 magnum? It is only slightly larger than your 38 and significantly better power.

http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Mag_Pug_73521.html


http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Mag_Pug_73521.html

[Meeteetse]

Growing up in Wyoming I always loved getting away from it all in a wilderness area. I usually carried two guns, one in small caliber (.22) like a Ruger Bearcat or a S&W kit gun in my pack and the other depends on how I feel at the time. Occasionally I carry my Winchester 30/30 trapper, in a sleeve on my pack, that is surprisingly easy to get to, but most of the time I carry a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 (4 5/8").

I often carry two 50 rnd boxes of .22 and one box (20 rnds) of 30/30 and/or 30 rnds of .44. Two 12 rnd flat plastic wallet cases and six in the gun.

These choices may not work for everyone but they do for me. One thing for sure, I "never" go without a .22.

edit: forgot to mention that I rarely go alone, so the other person will also have a gun or two.
p.s. don't forget the matches

[RoostRider]

ZeroD and M2 are pretty much on the same page I am.... which is that this gun is going to give me a certain amount of protection from everyting (less and more depending on the circumstances)... if it's a bear or moose I have to shoot at, well, a little more luck is going to have to play into it for me to come out on top...

To all- Thanks for all your input... I did consider many other guns, including many mentioned in this thread.... for one reason or another it came down to the gun I chose... but, this thread is supposed to be about my experience with this gun, and not a debate as to what might be better... I only included my reasoning behind the caliber/gun I chose so people would understand the reasons behind the choice.... Hopefully and likely, I will never have to back up those choices with solid irrefutable evidence of the effectiveness of my choice...

I am more than glad to hear about anyone elses experience with a pack gun because it all helps in the long run... (I am planning on winning the lottery here pretty soon... and then I will be adding several more firearms to the collection... :) )....

I really enjoy hearing about what works for who and why in the deep woods....

To add to the subject- I took this gun with me out to the Great North Woods again this weekend for some fun on dirtbikes.... just tossed it in my hydration pack and never thought about it again... although it is easy to argue that dirt biking doesn't require the same weight/space savings, thus I could have brought a bigger gun, it is nice to have a gun that just goes wherever you are going without any hassle.... the only times I ever seen a bear on a dirtbike it was his tail end as he booked into the woods....

Right now (until that lottery thing pays off) this gun is my 'goes everywhere' gun and stands to take a lot of abuse... I hope it's up to that task as well.... I'll be sure to let you know....

[mnrivrat]

Well I am fairly familiar with the area you camp in. I have spent time around there myself hunting bear off the gunflint , and also west of the lake shore near Carlton Peak.
My woods gun back then was a K-frame S&W in .357 mag . A lot of the light weight guns have come along since my days in the woods of northern Minn.

I was never much concerned about my choice, and I have a healthy respect for the .38Spl which I reloaded and shot for years out of my Model 19's. Mostly with a hard cast 165 grn semi-wad cutter from my Lee mold. (gas checked for the hotter rounds & .357 mag loadings)
I hunted bear with the .357 as well ,and never felt under gunned so to speak. Most of the population of the critters are in the 350 lb or less range, with your 450 lb being near the top ( yes there are 500+ lb critters but darn few) As you mention, the bear and or Moose threat is not that great of a concern there. Attacks are very unusual.

Now you got me hungry for fresh blueberries mixed in the pancakes, and the clean fresh air of an autumn morning over a small camp fire grilling those pancakes on a small lake shore - and some home made maple syrup.

[medmo]

This thread reminded me of a story from my father in the late 60's. While deer hunting his partner killed a black bear in upstate NY with a six shot Colt Detective Special off duty gun. He said that he was protecting himself but he probably panicked when he spooked the bear. The ammo was the department issued 158gr lead round nose which is pretty anemic compared to today's options. The 38 special has been around a long time and has accounted for taking a lot of game.

[Lamont]

I also spend alot of time in the woods near Longville,MN. i Carry a tuarus model 66 in .357. just recently bout a 10mm but havent had a chance to carry it thru the timber so im not sure how it feels. Its funny ive lived in this state all my life and never been to the boundary waters i need to get up there an check it out.

[B yond]

I'm going woods'n tomorrow morning. Going to scout out some fishing holes I saw on a satellite image. I plan to take my p345 in a kydex paddle holster with one spare mag and a NAA mini w/snakeshot (for snakes) in a IWB holster over my appendix. I like to go super-light for day trips like this.

I can understand the preference for a revolver for stuff like this, but in my area you're more likely to stumble onto a mexican-cartel-owned pot farm than to get attacked by a bear, and I might need the quick reload (that would be a bad day). Plus, I don't own a large caliber revolver right now. :(

[cubesmoothie]

38 specials are overlooked a lot. They aren't weak or underpowered in any way. A .38 round is a big nasty piece of hot metal to get hit with no matter who or what you are.

[Antihero]

If you feel comfortable with a 38 spec, fine, but IMHO I'd rather carry a bit more weight than die because of not enough gun. There are plenty of really lightweight and small powerful guns out there right now. I had a Taurus 44c for a little while that weighs less than 30 oz had a 2.5 barrel and packed 5 rounds of 44 magnum. Its small,light and is a bear worthy caliber. Did you take a look at them when shopping around?

Personally my woods gun is a Blackhawk in 45colt loaded with 325gr Buffalo Bore hardcast but im also a member of the thin red mist line of thinking, if i have to shoot something dangerous in protection of myself that is all i want left of the target.

If you hunt bear than you know the only real reliable way of stopping them is to break them down so they literally cant move forward. A 38 special loaded with anything isnt gnna do that.

[David E]

I've noticed that some people regard a trail/woodsgun as merely "dead weight." Therefore, nearly any gun will suffice. (until they actually need it, of course)

Other people regard the firearm as essential equipment and carry the gun that best suits the anticipated needs and is fully capable of meeting them.

[amd6547]

Some people never carry a handgun on a thirty mile backpack trip, but are happy to pontificate for others who do.

[amd6547]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/amd6547/P1000789.jpg
One of my favorite trail pistols now...the spam can stays home though!
For a longer trip. I stick with the 38 snub.

[sophijo]

...sorta like the Pope!:)

[amd6547]

It was a GREAT trip...30 miles along the Grand Canyon of Pennsylvania, raining every day, but we were prepared for it...good rain gear, tight tent. Lots of up and down terrain, including a 2000+ foot gain at the start after a four hour car ride, with full packs. It is at those times that the light weight of a 38snub is appreciated.

[B yond]

It is at those times that the light weight of a 38snub is appreciated.

Weight is a big concern. .22LR ammo being so light is one of the arguments I frequently hear for it as a survival gun. The reasoning there being that you can carry much more ammo for the same amount of weight.

[David E]

It all depends what the gun is FOR.

If for survival, meaning gathering small game for food, then it's hard to beat a .22, providing you can hit with it.

If it is specifically for bear defense, a .22 or .38 snub are poor choices. Power floor begins at 10mm with proper loads.

If it is only for "two legged snake" defense, then the power floor begins at the .38 snub. (with a lot of practice)

[Antihero]

I've noticed that some people regard a trail/woodsgun as merely "dead weight." Therefore, nearly any gun will suffice. (until they actually need it, of course)

Other people regard the firearm as essential equipment and carry the gun that best suits the anticipated needs and is fully capable of meeting them.

Very good point, a gun for protection should be included in the essentials IMO, its a serious concern especially so when you are far in the back country.

[amd6547]

Bear danger, particularly from black bear, is highly over-rated...mainly by those who have no experience in the woods. Most backpackers I know don't carry any firearm, and have been backpacking for decades.
I have always carried because I am a shooter, and for me, a handgun is one of my essentials. I have encountered a couple squirrely individuals over the years, but I have never had to draw. There was an encounter where I had my revolver in hand in my parka pocket pointed at two guys who stopped their car while my pal and I were packing back to where our car was...they seemed a bit strange, and after a short conversation, they drove off.
The only time I actually prepared to fire a round was when a large buck came into our campsite and was acting in a strange aggressive manner (at 3am)...he ran off just as I was about to fire off a round to scare him.

[noob_shooter]

personally, a G27 or GP100 4" is fine... It's better to pack a little more power whenever possible.

OR a G20.. :)

.....LAstly, work out and become stronger so you can carry more... My brother and buddies always telling how heavy my hunting rifles are to be carrying and walking with them all day for miles and miles, up and down hills. HUH? I go hunting carry a backpack with extra ammos, some sandwiches, 2-3 20 oz bottles of water + 6" knife + a small folding seat to sit on.. and yeah with my G27 on the side with a full mag in my pocket. I'm a small 5'7" @ 155lbs medium build. All day long in the woods and no problem...

Depending on what i'm hunting, I'll carry a 12 gauge 26" shotgun, Savage 17 hmr BTVS (heavy gun for rim fire), or my Saiga .308 21"..

[amprecon]

Of the pistols I have, G21, G23, Bersa UC9, S&W Model 10, the G23 goes with me in the woods with (2) extra mags.

[amd6547]

Now add a 6-8lb tent, a 4lb sleeping bag, a 2lb sleeping pad, a 1lb stove plus fuel for a week, a 2lb water purifier, food for a week, cook pot, medical kit, spare clothes appropriate for the hottest and coldest and wettest conditions you might encounter. Spare socks. Decent knife, either folding or sheath. Put it all in a backpack which is appropriate for the job...the pack itself will weigh 6-7lb's empty.
Those are the necessities. Anything else is optional. After the first couple long distance multi-day trips, every backpacker I know re-evaluates what gear gets included, and what stays home. On one of my first trips, I listened to people I later found didn't know what they were talking about, and toted a six-inch 44mag "for black bears". I soon wished I had chosen a different piece, live and learn.

[David E]

I've said all along that my main concern isn't bears, snakes or wild dogs, but rabid rednecks. It is for them I choose which gun 99% of the time.

[20nickels]

Sounds like the OP found his gun, but I'll add anyway. The .38 will handle 99% of any shooting situation you will encounter. I personally wanted the versatillity of the .357 Magnum and bought the S&W 386. I will soon be adding a SP101 3" to the pile, it weighs about the same, just smaller and the clockwork is rugged.

[JShirley]

I've been a light infantryman. I understand the weight challenges. I used to have a Glock 23 that I took on several camping trips. Other potential good woods guns:

Glock 36
S&W 65

I do have a little Model 642. Easy to carry, but far from my first choice if I really needed it.

John

[Speedyfish]

Had a close call yesterday hiking in Hillsborough County (FL). A group of wild, drunken young men were partying back in the woods. Heard them just before my attractive wife and I stumbled into them. I guarantee there would have been trouble. We gave them a wide berth and avoided contact. I will protect my family first and always. I did feel a bit undergunned with an M&P 340 and a speed strip. Next time, I'll have the G23 and spare mag to defend against the two-legged threats.

[JShirley]

Yep. That used to be my standard load when camping. Just have to weigh your priorities, I guess. :)

I don't really expect to need a carbine and 240 rounds, but there's a hell of a lot of difference between carrying a little backup piece and one that's effectively a duty piece.

S&W 642: 14 oz, unloaded
Glock 23: 21 oz, unloaded

I'll gladly take that 50% additional weight in exchange for at least double the accuracy, significantly faster accurate presentation, faster follow-up shots, and over twice the ammunition capability and more power...not to mention much faster reloads. Now, you have much faster diminishing returns between, say, 21 oz and 30 oz, but a good compact polymer firearm like a Glock 23 is (IMO) a great choice. Some people prefer the subcompact versions, but my personal experience is that the size is getting too small for the return, and the size difference between a G19 (20.99 oz) and G26 (19.75 oz) size isn't nearly as significant as the additional usefulness of the larger piece.

John

[ArmedBear]

I went hiking today with a J-frame .38, with snake loads alternated with Barnes/Cor-Bon .38+P. I didn't expect anything larger than a coyote, and mostly just expected snakes.

Farther up the mountain, I carry a .44 Mountain Gun. It's heavier, but it will actually do something if I have to use it on an aggressive bear or a pack of imported Canadian wolves. It weighs about the same as my .357, so I err on the side of the more powerful round.

Around town, the J-frame is usually in a pocket holster. It's one of the best guns for that purpose IMO. 450 pound bears? You know that, a couple years back, a guy was killed by a bear after emptying his .38 into it? The bear was shot by rangers or wardens some time later, and all six rounds of .38 were found in the bear, which was apparently none the worse for them.

WRT bears, the threat they pose varies from place to place. I don't worry much about them, but if I'm going to carry a gun around for miles, it might as well work for whatever I would have to shoot. We have the imported wolf packs, pissed off bull elk, moose, mountain goats, cougars, black bears, grizzly bears, and BLM land pot cultivators, all of which can kill people in the wilderness.

....oh, and beavers! You don't want to mess around with a beaver that wants to kill you. Or a marmot.:D

[Big Bill]

I live in Idaho and we have the same threats in the deep woods that you have described in your opening post Roostrider. I carry a 3" Ruger SP101 loaded with .357 Federal Fusion 357 Magnum 158 Grain Jacketed Hollow Points and four speedloaders.

[HB]

A group of wild, drunken young men were partying back in the woods. Heard them just before my attractive wife and I stumbled into them. I guarantee there would have been trouble.
I understand what you mean, but i have never seen anybody party in the real backcountry. When I backpack, I walk at least 6 miles into the woods before setting up camp, depending on whether and water sources... I have never, ever, met anybody that is weird enough to carry a couple 30 packs of crappy beer to a swimming hole, 6 miles into the woods. Generally people you see on the trail will be individuals quite like yourself.

I would think that if you are going to run into trouble, it will be at the trailhead. If you run into trouble on the trail, it will be meth cookers (but they seem to move towards cities now) or pot growers.

HB

[JShirley]

AB, I think I would be more likely to carry less firepower if I only have myself to consider. When I speak of carrying that G23, for instance, I was married to my first wife. By myself, it might be a different situation, but if I'm with others, I am assuming at least some responsibility for their safety.

J

[ljnowell]

Had a close call yesterday hiking in Hillsborough County (FL). A group of wild, drunken young men were partying back in the woods. Heard them just before my attractive wife and I stumbled into them. I guarantee there would have been trouble. We gave them a wide berth and avoided contact. I will protect my family first and always. I did feel a bit undergunned with an M&P 340 and a speed strip. Next time, I'll have the G23 and spare mag to defend against the two-legged threats.

I dont know why you felt that was a close call. Probably some good ol boys blowin off some steam. Chances are if you would have stopped and talked they would have offered a beer or passed along something else. Not saying you should accept either, just saying they probably didnt have any violent intent. You cant be scared of everybody, thats no way to live.

[amd6547]

I agree...Most trouble occurs near trailheads, someplace close enough for a yahoo to carry a twelve pack of beer after having already consumed a few.
I have carried a Glock 23, and it was fine for the trail. The best thing about it is it's trail-worthy finish.
I am really liking the Tokarev, now. The 7.62x25 Tok round has incredible penetration, and shoots very flat out to 100yds. The pistol itself is combat tough, and very simple. For all that, it is a cheap $200 pistol for knocking around the woods.
As for Speedyfish's encounter, you have to go with your gut feeling. When my pal and I are moving through the woods, we are usually pretty quiet...usually, we are aware of others on the trail long before they are aware of us.

[David E]

I did feel a bit undergunned with an M&P 340 and a speed strip. Next time, I'll have the G23 and spare mag to defend against the two-legged threats.

Funny how that works.........

[Antihero]

but if I'm going to carry a gun around for miles, it might as well work for whatever I would have to shoot.

Exactly, the extra weight is well worth it when you actually need it.

Also we're not talking about 20lbs here, or even 5 lbs. We're talking about a pound more in the case of the Taurus 44c i mentioned.

[SwampWolf]

I canoe/fish the Boundry Waters regularly (try to once a year but, living in Ohio, I don't always make it). At my age (66), the portages aren't getting any shorter but I don't plan on giving it up any time soon. As an aside, my brother and I put in at Mudro Lake (where the Chainsaw Sisters have-had?-there little saloon) and traveled up the Horse River to Basswood Falls where we camped, canoed and fished for two weeks. As best as I can recollect, our paddles first bit the water @ about 8:45 A.M., on September 11th, 2001. Because we never carry a radio (or GPS for that matter) for reasons of making our escape from "civilization" as meaningful as possible and because at that time of the year contact with other people is pretty much nil, imagine our shock and disbelief after we learned of the 9-11 attack for the first time, a full two weeks after the terrorists struck. We were informed of the attack by other canoeists on a portage trail while they were headed in as we were going back. I've always maintained that my brother and I may well have been the very last people on planet earth to have heard the awful news.

I always tote a firearm when traveling the Boundry Waters, not so much for the bears (though they are a factor!) as for the admittedly unlikely encounter with, as one poster aptly put it, feral rednecks or their humankind ilk. Over the years I've tried carrying various types of handguns (long guns are out of the question as far as I'm concerned due to their weight and bulk), including an alloy, six-shot Colt Cobra, a steel framed, five-shot, 3" barreled Smith J-frame (both .38 Specials), a Ruger Super Single Six (with the .22 Magnum cylinder) and a Colt Commander .45 ACP. My weapon of choice, however, for the past few years is the same one I carry concealed most of the time "in the city": a Smith & Wesson 6906. I have found this pistol to be the ideal compromise (any choice of a firearm will entail a compromise of some sort or another): relatively lightweight, of fairly rust-free construction, adequate caliber (9mm) and having a capacity of 13 rounds. Importantly, the pistol is also reliable to the extreme. I carry the pistol loaded and pack two loaded, spare magazines.

Despite my considered choice, I have no quarrel with the op's reasoning. A light-weight, .38 Special revolver is never a bad choice in the environs being discussed.