[AWD]

Maybe someone could steer me towards the better round for my 45 ACP...

According the Corbon website for their hollowpoints, the 165+P is listed for the 3" barrel, and the 185+P is listed for the 5" barrel. Well, my barrel length falls almost right smack dab in the middle at 3.9". Which would be better for a carry gun?

I have e-mailed Corbon asking them but haven't heard anything. I suspect they are busy these days.

Thank you
AWD

[kyo]

I would stick with 230 for all sizes in .45. I don't even know what the point of +p is except more recoil and a little faster bullet. Still not enough to mitigate the light weight and recoil. Still less force than a 230g

[gglass]

165gr or 185gr... You might as well just get a .40 S/W based firearm.


Bullet weight reduction to .40 S/W weight
Speed increase to .40 S/W velocities


It looks to me like you are reinventing the wheel.:rolleyes:

[BlindJustice]

What model .45 handgun do you own with a 3.9" Bbl.

Most stick with 230 gr. JHP or FMJ

CorBon Conventional JHPs are made by Sierra
and they shred and lack penetration at least in
the test media I used in comparison to other bonded
JHPs and a hardcast 200 gr. load.

My carry load is the Doubletap 200 gr. Gold Dot
JHP @ 1,125 FPS 5" Bbl. - I use a S&W 1911 or 625
Revolver.

Randall

[kanook]

not to sound like a jerk, what does your gun shoots best? I don't choose ammo because "it's the best", my firearm chooses what works the best and is the most accurate. buy a couple of boxes and do some testing. :D

[ArmedBear]

Neither.

There's no reason to use a .45 to emulate a .40 or a .38 Special.

I'm a believer in bullet weight because I've seen it work. 230 grain is my choice for .45. There's no other reason to carry around the bulky thing. I've got Federal HST 230 grain +P rounds in mine. There's no reason to shoot anything lighter.

[HoosierQ]

230 is the way to go in .45. Maximizes everything. Stick with 230 and you're good with any type of bullet...even FMJ...nobody will say that about any other round (although some will disagree about FMJ .45).

[JTQ]

I also prefer the 230 grain bullet in .45 ACP. I even prefer FMJ bullets. I will concede less recoil with the lighter weight bullets, but you give that up when you go to +P rounds. I stay with standard velocities. That's what I like and it works for me.

However, as kanook said above, you need to find what works for you and your pistol. Try a few different rounds and see what you and your pistol like. There is no magic bullet, especially from a handgun.

[Confederate]

I hate to be the one who disagrees here, but my choice would be the 185gr JHP, simply because of the configuration and the faster velocity. You already have the bullet size you want. Extra mass does nothing but increase penetration and recoil, which can be detrimental. In short, the extra velocity of the round makes the .45 auto a better manstopper, IMO.

In revolvers, everyone always assumed that the 158gr JHP was the best defense round in a .357 mag. The California Highway Patrol found out it wasn't when they'd shoot people repeatedly with 158gr JHPs and the bad guy would just keep on chugging. When departments all over the country went to 125gr JHPs, on the other hand, the bad guys started dropping like flies, most times with one shot. (R.K. Campbell says: "I observed the effect of the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP once over the top of my own sights. The effect was gruesome. A solid hit that produced a severe blood flow AND dramatic effect from the rear, including lung tissue thrown perhaps three feet.") Continuing the logic, a 110gr JHP should be even better, but no, these light bullets not only came apart in heavy clothing (say, if the bad guy was wearing a heavy leather coat), the high pressure gas would decimate forcing cones and top straps.

The 165gr might very well be too light for this caliber, but 185gr JHPs would combine decent penetration with a superior wound channel and I think be better than the 230gr. For one thing, with a 185gr JHP, you MIGHT get some decent expansion in the bargain. (Despite all the BS about the .45's legendary manstopping ability, it was largely legendary. The truth is, the 230gr FMJ wasn't/isn't a great manstopper by any means. It may beat a .38 Spc 180gr round nose, but that's not saying much.) In short, I can't see that a 230gr-anything is going to be much better than a 230gr FMJ.

The 200gr JHP was popular for a long time with police, but then ammunition companies began lowering the weight even more. A 185gr will give you better velocity, greater chance of expansion, lower recoil, plus I like the configuration.

Doing a Google search, I just found these charts at Handloads.com (http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All). As imperfect as any such info is, still, take it for what it's worth, and notice the relatively poor performance of the FMJ.


http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/45StoppingPower.jpg

[KBintheSLC]

I would stick with 230 for all sizes in .45. I don't even know what the point of +p is except more recoil and a little faster bullet. Still not enough to mitigate the light weight and recoil. Still less force than a 230g

I couldn't agree more. The 45 acp does its best work with slow and heavy projectiles. I would stick with standard pressure 230g. By running light hot stuff, you are essentially turning it into a 40 SW. Let the 45 be what it was designed to be. Feed it the heavy stuff.

[ArmedBear]

Confederate, your own chart refutes what you believe.

Compare apples with apples, meaning same bullet designs, not FMJ vs. HydroShock, etc.

Compare Federal HydroShocks across all three, because that's the only one you can.

230 grain -- 96% stops -- 13.9"
230 grain -- 89% stops -- 12.9" with short barrels
185 grain -- 88% stops -- 12.9"
165 grain -- 84% stops -- 14.7"

That's 96% for 230, 88% for 185 and 84% for 165 grains, with comparable bullet designs. Even with compact guns, the 230 comes out on top.

The practical difference between these numbers, in the real world, is probably bigger than it looks. At least a third of attackers will stop when they're hit with anything, including a .22LR. That's the baseline for this comparison, not zero.

Now I don't think that 12.9" vs. 13.9" penetration is going to make the difference between a "safer" and a "more dangerous" defensive bullet, but since you consider penetration to be a bad thing, you'll note that the 165 grain, the least effective stopper, penetrated the most of all, 14.7".

Heavy bullets work. Plain and simple.

When, in a given caliber, you give up bullet weight in return for a bit of velocity, you lose effectiveness. You gain a flatter trajectory. That might matter if I'm hunting antelope. I might choose a less-effective bullet to get a flatter trajectory. But that's a decision you might make when shooting at 300 yards, not defensive pistol ranges. At close range, you're giving up an effective stopper in return for, well, nothing.

[Seven For Sure]

My first choice would be 200 Speer Gold Dot +P. After that, I'd choose a bonded 230 +P. After that I'd choose a bonded 230, no +P. No way I'd go under 200 gr. in 45. A 200 gr. 45 has the same SD as a 155 40: .138, which is as light as I would go in that caliber and prefer 165 and 180. A 165 in 45 is like throwing a frisbee top side forward (not really but you get it). It would probably work well on a naked skinny guy but you'd be lacking in penetration, both in barrier and BG. You will get considerably more noise, flash and recoil with the lighter bullet weights also. Lighter bullets generally need a longer barrel to burn all the extra powder in the case and as the lighter bullet is traveling faster, it needs more space to do so.

Just FYI, a 165 45 has a SD of .114. A 110 357 has a SD of 123. 110 357's are not reccommended for self defense by anyone I know of. They typically have almost twice the velocity of a 165 45 also.

[MICHAEL T]

185 gr Corbon DPX +P in my compacts and commander size . 200gr Corbon HP +P in my gov.
230 ball when I am out of other
If I remember right Sales Manger of Corbon carries the 165 DPX in his commander Might be close to a 40 in numbers but makes a much larger hole. and nicer in recoil

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

I think the main point you should take away from this thread is this:

You should always listen to people whose reasoning stops at "hurrr, bullet's heavier", and not listen to people who make ammunition for a living. [/sarcasm] If it was one of the ninja ammo companies, I could see the point, but it's cor bon.
Sorry if I'm being a bit crass, guys, but you're espousing unabashed fanboyism when it comes to the 230 grain bullet.



The truth is, a few grams of lead or copper isn't going to change where your shot lands.

How accurately a bullet shoots in your gun is

For me, the 185 barnes bullet shoots like a laser compared to the 230 grain federal and hornady loads I've tried, which gave sloppy groups.

More importantly though, good luck finding 1 round of either cor bon

[KyJim]

For me, the 185 barnes bullet shoots like a laser compared to the 230 grain federal and hornady loads I've tried, which gave sloppy groups.

That's a good reason for you to shoot the Barnes bullet in your gun. I don't think anyone will argue that accuracy and shot placement is the most important thing.

Let me also point out a couple of things about the chart in the post above. First, there is a HUGE debate about these so-called "one shot stop" statistics. I'm not going to go into that, other than to say they are controversial.

Second, the chart lumps together stops from 4 inch or smaller barrels. In a caliber like the .45, a one inch difference in a three and four inch barrel can make a big difference in terms of whether a bullet will expand reliably.

Finally, anytime you're shooting a 1911 at under 4 inches (some say 4.25 inches), tolerances become critical. While you may have a gun that is 100% reliable, the fact is that short barrels push the limits of the design of the pistol. For that reason, I choose to carry only FMJ ammo in anything under 4 inches. I know most 1911s can feed hollow points reliably these days but it is still one less factor that can go wrong in a gun (under 4 inch barrel) where everything has to be pretty much perfect to work reliably.

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

That's a good reason for you to shoot the Barnes bullet in your gun. I don't think anyone will argue that accuracy and shot placement is the most important thing.
Exactly my point. :)

[AWD]

Did not expect to get such a number of responses, thanks for everyone who has given advice.

Reason I was asking specifically about Corbon, and their two weights, is that those are the only two available for the DPX. Based on how the DPX shoots out of my other weapons (accurate and clean) I was going to stick with it for the .45 ACP.

I may go with another brand/weight alltogether as I do not try and get hung up on brands... I basically was just curious as to why Corbon (or anybody) would suggest a bullet weight based on barrel length, and what would be the better one for mine.

AWD

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Did not expect to get such a number of responses, thanks for everyone who has given advice.

Reason I was asking specifically about Corbon, and their two weights, is that those are the only two available for the DPX. Based on how the DPX shoots out of my other weapons (accurate and clean) I was going to stick with it for the .45 ACP.

I may go with another brand/weight alltogether as I do not try and get hung up on brands... I basically was just curious as to why Corbon (or anybody) would suggest a bullet weight based on barrel length, and what would be the better one for mine.

AWD

I use DPX and Taurus Hex in my 1911 as well.

Think of the barrel as a runway. A lighter, faster plane is going to need less runway than a flying fortress.

[ArmedBear]

Sorry if I'm being a bit crass, guys, but you're espousing unabashed fanboyism when it comes to the 230 grain bullet.


By referring to a chart?

I carry DPX in my pocket gun, but it's not a .45.

My .45 is a beast. There's no reason to shoot anything lighter than what I do, in it. I can keep it in a pie plate at 25 yards one-handed. That's good enough for self-defense. I use another gun for bullseye matches.

The truth is, a few grams of lead or copper isn't going to change where your shot lands.

How accurately a bullet shoots in your gun is


Exactly where it lands matters when you're shooting paper, not an attacker. If you have to worry about getting tiny groups, you'll probably end up in jail, because at 7 yards, I've never seen a gun that wasn't broken that didn't group well enough...

I used to think bullet weight didn't matter. I used to believe that a few hundred FPS really made the bullet just as good, because the energy numbers looked that way.

Then, I went hunting with black powder and a big, heavy bullet.

Reality changes one's perspective. People knock Elmer Keith's opinions about heavy bullets, but the thing is, not a single one of them has used so many bullets to actuallly kill anything as he did -- not by a VERY LONG SHOT.


What Cor-Bon's SALES manager says he carries doesn't matter to me in the least.

(And the carry rounds in my gun right now as we speak are Cor-Bons. I have nothing against them. I do, however, have my own brain and my own experience.)

[Ben86]

I wouldn't want less than 200 grs. for fear of underpenetration.

[Confederate]

Confederate, your own chart refutes what you believe.

Compare apples with apples, meaning same bullet designs, not FMJ vs. HydroShock, etc.

Compare Federal HydroShocks across all three, because that's the only one you can.

230 grain -- 96% stops -- 13.9"
230 grain -- 89% stops -- 12.9" with short barrels
185 grain -- 88% stops -- 12.9"
165 grain -- 84% stops -- 14.7"

Thank you for your comment.

Actually, take another look. The chart also must be read according to the bullets used. It's not enough to simply look at the weight, but the configuration. The HS is Hydro-Shok, a specialty bullet. The GD is Gold Dot (Speer), which also is a specialty ammo with a wide mouth. Only when you get to JHPs and FMJs do you really compare apples with apples.

Rather than noting barrel length, look at the bullet types themselves.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/45StoppingPower.jpg

BT=Black Talon◄►GS=Golden Saber◄►GD=Gold Dot◄►HS=Hydra Shok◄►ST=Silvertip◄►LRN=Lead Round Nose◄►
SWC=Semi Wadcutter◄►JHP=Jacketed Hollow Point◄►FMJ=Full Metal Jacket

The Federal 185gr JHP comes in at 88%, and the Remington 185gr JHP comes in at 81%. Most of the standard 230gr bullets come in non-hollowpoint configurations because no one really expects them to expand at all. Not shown is the CCI 200gr JHP, which rate an 88%.

Now the proverbial elephant in the room is the fact that we're really talking about +P, which is not quite what the chart is all about. And the question was, which is better, the 165gr JHP +P or the 185gr JHP +P?

The added velocity is only going to cause those JHPs to open up better and, thus, boost expansion. Boosting a 230gr bullet's velocity, on the other hand, will only increase its penetration, making it perhaps too penetrative.

Given the above, I think either JHP +P (185 or 165) will outperform all of the standard 230gr ammo and will edge out the specialty ammo as well. At any rate, it should keep you well into the high 80s to low 90s at least.

Keeping also in mind that the gun will recoil less with lighter bullets, I'd feel comfortable carrying either the 185gr or 165gr JHP +P. Having said that, I would also feel comfortable carrying a 230gr specialty ammo.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/4506_fired.jpg

.

[JohnBT]

Specialty ammo? Do you mean carry ammo - self defense ammo? It's common everyday ammo to most of us. We practice with it and carry it. We also shoot ball ammo from time to time when plinking.

And I know enough about statistics and scientific method not to take seriously any claim, pro or con, based on 45 shootings with 43 One Stop Shots - the numbers on the Gold Dot line. The sample size is inconsequential. IOW, not big enough to draw a conclusion.

I'm not sure any of those sample sizes are significant, but I'd have to have access to the raw data to tell for certain. Even then, the reports were not made by one observer, so the data could well be skewed.

I suppose one stop shots are important if you only have one shot.

To each their own.

John

[elde]

From THE widely acknowledged authority on stopping power:


http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9127&SearchTerms=45,acp,dpx

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9127&SearchTerms=45,acp,dpx

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7282&SearchTerms=45,acp,dpx

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6972&SearchTerms=45,acp,dpx

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

ArmedBear, give me a break. :)

I wasn't referring to you in the first place, and your reference is to a chart that is merely a reflection of popularity and a billion other factors with no real relation to bullet weight whatsoever. Anybody that's taken statistics can infer that.

a couple cm to the right of a critical hit is 1cm too far. Having a heavy bullet isn't going to change that.

The slow and heavy design of a hunting bullet has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
The reason you use big heavy bullets when hunting buffalo is so that it can freight train its way through all that hide, muscle and bone.

Apples and Papayas.

[.357 magnum]

The way Modern LE Ammo is made the 230gr is perfect for a 3.9 inch barrel. All you are doing with the other loads is adding Recoil which takes away from Accuracy. Ammo such as the Federal 230gr HST or Winchester 230gr Bonded, Are Excellent Stoppers. I would also recommend the Winchester 230gr Ranger SXT and the Speer 230gr Gold Dot LE loads.

The Best to All!

Frank

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Specialty ammo? Do you mean carry ammo - self defense ammo? It's common everyday ammo to most of us. We practice with it and carry it. We also shoot ball ammo from time to time when plinking.

And I know enough about statistics and scientific method not to take seriously any claim, pro or con, based on 45 shootings with 43 One Stop Shots - the numbers on the Gold Dot line. The sample size is inconsequential. IOW, not big enough to draw a conclusion.

I'm not sure any of those sample sizes are significant, but I'd have to have access to the raw data to tell for certain. Even then, the reports were not made by one observer, so the data could well be skewed.

I suppose one stop shots are important if you only have one shot.

To each their own.

John


So you mean to tell me you shoot $2 per round for practice?

[model of 1905]

Im in the heavier vs faster group in all calibers. I dont shoot anything other than 230 gr. whether plinking or for self defense.

JMO

[Confederate]

Specialty ammo? Do you mean carry ammo—self defense ammo? It's common everyday ammo to most of us. We practice with it and carry it. We also shoot ball ammo from time to time when plinking.
Well, by specialty ammo I mean ammo that's sold at a substantially higher cost and manufactured to a substantially different criteria than standard ammo. Whether it be Hydra-Shok, Gold Dot, Golden Saber or Glaser Safety Slugs, they are not ammunition that can be used extensively for practice (unless you're a lot better off than I am). Your non-specialty stuff is FMJ, JHP and the such. This is the stuff you store for doomsday and hope you never need. Specialty ammo is what you carry but don't generally shoot.

[JohnBT]

"So you mean to tell me you shoot $2 per round for practice?"

It wasn't $2 a round when I bought it. I have lots of ammo including a bunch of Georgia Arms Gold Dots; started stocking up for retirement 7 or 8 years ago. I shoot $15 a box rimfire some days and Win and Fed .38 Spec. wadcutters on others. Sure, I have inexpensive ammo too, but that's only half of what I shoot.

And don't get me started on the cost of replacing the 28 ga. shells I shoot. AA-HS isn't $3.49 a box like it was when I started storing it up.

I should quit buying, sell some of this stuff, and retire. That's it, retire and start reloading.

John

[orionengnr]

Well, I don't go out and buy the latest, but if it ends up being viable/promising, I'll pay a premium for good ammo.

My two current .45acp choices are Winchester Ranger 230+p and the Barnes X-bullet as loaded by Cor-Bon (DPX 185 gr) and Taurus (TCB 185).

The new HST load is looking good and I may spring for some one day soon...however, I'll have to buy a fair amount, to make sure my carry .45s like it. Buying an amount of anything these days is...a proposition. May have to hold off for a bit. Fortunately, I'm pretty well stocked in the above-mentioned loads.

[orionengnr]

From THE self-proclaimed authority on stopping power:

There...fixed it for you. BTW, there is no shortage of them. :)

[mljdeckard]

I'll add this to the list of reasons I don't carry compact guns. The ammo was designed to work a certain way at a certain velocity. And while I trust Corbon more than just about any other entity on the idea, I would rather just use the gun as it was designed, 5", 230 gr, 875 fps, standard pressure. I have yet to see a cartridge outperform the 230 gr HST JUST LIKE THIS.

I think +P ammo is trying to solve problems that either don't exist, or should be solved by using another cartridge.

[dsj]

shoot whatever gives you confidence.i like heavy bullets because i feel i can put them where they need to go.

[AWD]

You all are probably already familiar with this website, but I just found it and it has some good info. They did a few tests with a 3.8" barrel using 200 +P and regular 230 (Speer Gold Dot.) Looks like good penetration and expansion all things considered. This ammo is tested with a 5" barrel, as per Speer's website, but it looks like it works pretty good at 3.8"

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Various%20.45ACP%20JHPs%20(test%202).html

AWD

[BlindJustice]

Getting back atcha....

AWD, in my post towards the start of this thread,
I referred to the CorBon Conventional JHPs not the DPX
line which uses the Barnes XPB HP solid copper bullets.

Thanks for the post about the Speer Gold Dots.... makes
since I carry the Double Tap +P 200 gr. GDs @ 1,125 FPS.

FYI - Guess the heaviest load I have in relation to the
above is .45 Auto Rim 225 gr. Barnes XPB HP @ 944 FPS
out of a 625 5" Bbl.

Randall