[litman252]

I am starting to feel an ich for a carbine, semi auto. Thinking of 7.62x39 or .223. I don't like sks's. Really like AR-15's but not that much cash laying around.
what else is available??? I want it to be short as possible, 16-18" barrel.
light is better than heavy...........
Thanks,
Tony

[eatatjoes]

SAR-1 for around 300$ fit the bill?

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Laminated_Stock_Romanian_SAR_1_7_62x39_Rifle.html

[TallPine]

Saiga available with 16" barrel (tho with the AK action it is still fairly long)

http://www.eaacorp.com/firearms/saiga/rifles/saigasynthetict.shtml

$219 out the door

[Detachment Charlie]

I second Tallpine's comment. Own one and it's a blast -- at at least it's been about 600 blasts since I got it. Faultless performance. Decent "combat" acuracy -- it ain't no 600 yd. varmit killer, but then it's only a little over $200 OTD. Plus, it's an EBR:D

[jrhead75]

I went the SAR-1 route myself and haven't regretted it for a minute. I just love that little sucker.

Either of the above choices are fine as frog's hair...and unless you go .22, you can't shoot more for less than with 7.62x39. I believe the last batch I bought was on sale at Cheaper Than Dirt for $1.54/20.

[Lawyerman]

I took an AK to Thunder Ranch Urban Rifle last month. Never regretted it in any exercize. The gun was running like a top not having been cleaned in 1300 rounds. I hit everything I was shooting at including the pop ups in Thunderville.

It was a bone stock AK, no tac sling, no light mount or Cobra. Worked just fine and better than some of the AR's that showed up. My ammo cost was half the AR crowds and my gun was easily half sometimes a quarter of theirs. Tough to beat.

[litman252]

Thanks for the replys guys, The only thing that I don't like about most/all of the above is the ?AK47/SKS? type of saftey. I can't stand haveing a huge lever to throw on the right side of the reciever. If any of the above, or other, rifles have a diffrent saftey, please say so.
Thanks again.
Tony

P.S. I saw a ruger deerfield .44 mag at a gun store. Sorta handy, price of ammo and penitration might leave something TBD.

[AK103K]

The AK's safety isnt bad once you learn it and get used to it. It just takes a little practice. They are handy little rifles. For the money, you cant go wrong. All the accessories are cheap and built like a tank, and ammo is dirt cheap too. If you want to move up in price and a little better quality, look into the Krebs AK103 and AK103K. The K has a 14" barrel with a permanently attached AK74 type muzzle break. Its a great shooter.

[Black Snowman]

If you want to spend just short of an AR-15 and get a really short gun I just picked up a Bushmaster M17S (http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/m17s/) . I saw a used one at a local gun show for $500. They have some disadvantages but if you're going for short their hard to beat.

Long trigger pull, bad iron sights, kinda heavy, can heat up quick if you're a hoser, but they have a nice long 21.5 inch barrel are only 30" long and have a really easy to use safety ;)

[dave3006]

Lawyerman, your AK did not choke once during your class. Can you tell us about the AR15s?

- how many malfunctions did you witness over how many days from how many shooters?

I brought my Garand to an urban carbine course. No malfunctions. The ARs were choking left and right. 10-15 malfunctions over two days. Some required tools to fix. Was my case unusual?

[Kurt]

For the AK safety, just use your trigger finger and stretch a bit.

One possible downside, this method isn't very quiet.

[AK103K]

I use my middle finger, and its no louder than a M1/M14 safety being pushed off quick. There are a couple of ways to get it off, if you use your thumb and trigger finger, its quiet and actually just as fast and natural.

[litman252]

There is a SAR at the local gun shop, can't remember the price, have to give it another look.
The M17S is very sweet. Looked at one at the gun shop awhile ago. I really liked it but the cost was a wee bit high for now.
I'm going to look at the saga's again, gun shop has the shotguns in stock. should be at a good price.

I'll try the safteys again, those AK/SKS's seem to be the best functioning for my $$,
Thanks again, any more comments??
Tony

[Dionysusigma]

Love my SAR, but what about an M-1 Carbine? Short, classy, American design, .30 cal (close to 7.62), and semi-auto. Seen 'em for around $575-$650.

[jercamp45]

Love mine! Ammo is cheap, rifle is inexpensive, mags available at reasonable prices. Accurate enough for most realistic defense scenerio's, ALOT of fun, reliable, military classic, pisses off the anti's, does not kick much, loaded with softpoints it makee big hole, fairly short, fairly light, good weapon to hold off the hordes of whatever.
The M1 Carbine, Ruger .44 and the various lever guns are nice too...but I can do alot more with the AK for a better price......
AR's and HK USC's are expensive...... but that old AR will chuck a little bullet along ways! And the 45 carbines are fun too!
Just ordered a mech tech carbine conversion unit for the 1911 to experiment with, but you have to 'give up' a pistol frame(since I have a few laying about....I thought I'd try it out!) Report to follow.
Jercamp45

[Lawyerman]

We had 21 shooters on the line. I wish I could say something ugly about the mouse guns but in all honesty they ran pretty well. We had maybe 5 guns go down that I saw in the 5 days of shooting-1,500 rounds apiece. Each was easily fixed and put back in service. One gun had a nasty double feed that required almost total disassembly, never seen that before. One gun had a bad extractor but the operator (an Air Force PJ) claimed he had nearly 7k through that extractor so you can't really blame the gun. A few guys seemed to have mag problems.

Bolt on crap seemed to give more problems than the rifles themselves. The Tac Slings seemed to give a problem when guys went to charge their rifles from time to time. I think the webbing was getting hooked on/behind/around the bolt release.

There may have been more troubles, it is a long firing line and I was at one end-don't like shooting next to people. I would not expect that of the general public's AR15's though. Remember that these folks shelled out some serious money and took off 5-7 days of work to be at this class. Their gear was well taken care of and generally well thought out. At least two of the attendees were Colt Armorers for example.

There are several ways to deal with the AK safety. First, you need to either put it in a vise and bend it out a little or take a punch and peen the dimple that rides along the receiver flat. This will make the safety much easier to operate as it cuts down the drag on the receiver and will reduce some of it's characteristic "clack" when it is disengaged.

The safety is operated with the middle finger of the firing hand fairly easily-if you loosen it up a little. The other thing you can do is to buy a safety from Krebbs that has a "bump" on the rear of it that is easily engaged by the trigger finger. I have Tig welded a little "shelf" that mimics the tab on the front of the AK safety to the back of my safety and it works fine. If you don't have access to a welder then buy the Krebbs unit. Safety problem solved. Ak's lend themselves well to a little tinkering there are lots of little tricks, if anyone is interested, that really improve them. Best part is that everything is cheap, if you do really screw something up it isn't a big deal.

[litman252]

UPDATE:

My local dealer wants $370 for the SAR 1. By the above posts that seems high.
I've done more research, and discovered my lack of knowledge. Never realized the AK's and SKS's have DIFFRENT safety's. I was talking about them like they were all like the AK's. The SKS's are next to the trigger guard correct??
I still like the Saiga's simply due to price.
Looking over some SKS's sights, the short (16") barrels seem to be pretty nice looking. Do these feel close to the SAR for ballance??
Thanks much, your educating a newby in this kinda stuff..........
Tony

[Dave R]

IMHO, the AK designs balance much better than the SKS.

A Saiga will weigh more than a SAR, if that's important to you. The Saiga has a milled receiver, and the SAR has a stamped receiver.

I owned an SKS for a while and traded it in on another rifle, because I didn't like the balance or ergonomics. May fit you better, though.

I like the SAR's light weight (under 7 lbs) and handy pointing. Its pretty muzzle-light, so it feels very quick. The downside is its a little harder to get a steady hold than it is with a muzzle-heavy rifle. OTOH, an AK is rarely chosen for precision work.

[litman252]

Dave,
I agree with your entire post. I handled both guns again tonight. The SAR really feels better in the hands. I think I'm going to have to get used to the safety.
Tony

[AUTIGER04]

Ruger Mini 14 223cal.

[igor]

A thumb selector for AK brethren á la Galil can be found as a drop-in part. This (http://practical.hypermart.net/varusteet.html) is a Finnish 'smith showing his stuff for the Sako 92/95 (third pic from above)... if he has it, k-var or some other of them should have similar available.

[c_yeager]

Just for the record the Saiga does in fact have a stamped receiver. It should weight about the same as its Romanian cousin. Unless the Saiga furniture makes a big difference and i dont really think it does.

[Lawyerman]

Krebs offers a thumb operated safety on their KTR series of AK rifles. They are not widely available at this time. In fact, I don't believe Krebs sells them to the public but that may change.

[Dave R]

C-yeager, thanks for setting me straight on the stamped Saiga receiver.

[goon]

My AK is a milled SA-M7. It is heavier than the SAR-1 I used to have, but that helps to control it during recoil. The gun does vibrate around a little bit, but I can put three rounds on a man sized target at 50-75 yards at almost a full auto rate with it.
One guy I shot with thought there was something wrong with my gun. He said it sounded like it was doubling and tripling. Then he saw my finger moving.:D
I am thinking about getting another SAR. Eventhough I can outshoot the potential of the average AK, I like the damn things.
How many other guns can go through tens or even hundreds of thousands of rounds of less than ideal ammo with minimal maintenance and keep on putting lead on target?
Can your Remington 700 or your grandpappy's Winchester do that?;)

[jar]

Don't forget the original assault rifle, the '94 SC. I've found that the light, short Winchester '94 Saddle carbine in old 30-30 is a very, very handy rifle.

[litman252]

Thought I'd let you guys know that I bought a SKS from a friend a couple weeks ago. China model w/o bayonet, ~20" barrel. Stripper clips and front sight tool are on order.
I bought it as a gun to keep in the truck and for urban combat, since that might happen any day now :p OK not really.
Tony