Why does everyone hate on condition-2 carry for 1911's?


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jeeper01
May 22, 2009, 01:43 AM
I was a bit dumbfounded to read all the modern internet propaganda about how unsafe condition 2 is (loaded chamber hammer down). This used to be a safe/acceptable carry condition. Did i miss a newsletter from the grave of John Browning?

Correct me if i'm wrong but a 1911 in condition 2 is no less safe than a beretta 92 or any CZ da/sa in that same position

Now arguably there is an unnecessary and increased risk involved with using your thumb to cock/decock (logical), but those risks are equally present in cocking and decocking CZ's and Beretta 92's. Only in the cases of Sigs, Rugers and HK's do those fancy-shmancy, liberal decocker levers show up.

I did plenty of searching and at long last found this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=415221&highlight=1910+condition

which has some good input from some genuinely experienced people, however every other thread on every other forum just bashes on condition 2 as unsafe, uneducated, reckless... etc. whats going on here?


Edit* why? because manual safeties have a tendency/possibility to switch off if you are being active. Ever checked your safety and found it had switched off? I find that scary




to those who are going to claim JMB specifically intended for C&L carry i'd like to see some documentation of that. It was my understanding that early 1911's did not have manual or grip safeties making conditions 2 & 3 the only 'safer' options. Condition 2 would have been preferred because of 1 handed operation.

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jpwilly
May 22, 2009, 01:48 AM
My CZ has a decocker.

If I carry a 1911 it's condition 1.

Just the act of putting a 1911 in condition 2 can lead to an accidental discharge...if you want to carry in condition 2 more power to you but why? There's a number of safeties in place to prevent an accidental discharge in condition 1.

cyclopsshooter
May 22, 2009, 01:52 AM
on pre series 80 colts the firing pin was free floating, held in place by spring pressure only. if the firing pin spring was light, there was a worry that a dropped pistol could discharge the weapon. from what i have heard, you have to drop it from 10 feet or so... who knows... anyway, a heavy duty spring would probably be enough, or buy a 1911 that has a firing pin block...
i think you be safe with a HD spring... but a lawyer might tell you different-

CapnMac
May 22, 2009, 01:56 AM
Well, as a guess, the educated reason would be the risk on lowering the hammer onto the live round, not the geting the hammer back in case of need.

As that other thread here went into, there are safe ways to control that forward-moving hammer while you have "booger hook on the bang switch" like pinching the wide part of the original 1911 hamer.

Slipping up on the way to C3 could be bad, but that also implies being at the threshold of Condition Orange going on Red, too.

Bringing the weapon up and having a thumb slip should just segue into tap-rack-bang drill, in an aideal situation.

Could also just be that other fora just bash stuff 'cause they don;t know any better, too.

John Wayne
May 22, 2009, 01:56 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=441761

Also, if you're going to carry it like that, you might as well carry a SA revolver.

22LRFan
May 22, 2009, 01:59 AM
I don't really know about the safety of condition two, like if force put on the hammer could cause the round to fire. However, it just seems like you're putting yourself in a risky situation by having to pull the hammer back as you draw in a self defense situation. It just seems easier to manipulate the thumb safety as you find your grip in condition one.

jeeper01
May 22, 2009, 02:05 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=441761 -John Wayne


that thread leads me to this point:
Now arguably there is an unnecessary and increased risk involved with using your thumb to cock/decock (logical), but those risks are equally present in cocking and decocking CZ's and Beretta 92's. Only in the cases of Sigs, Rugers and HK's do those fancy-shmancy decocker levers show up.

i think a cz97 would have done the exact same AD. But those dont get hated on for condition 2. Maybe because they are DA/SA, but that speaks nothing toward safety of manual decocking... just convenience of not having to re-cock

David E
May 22, 2009, 02:07 AM
The problem with Condition 2 isn't lowering the hammer (altho one must be extremely careful) it's thinking that you can cock the hammer under the sudden and severe stress of imminent death or seriously bodily injury.

Try thumbing that hammer back (especially a Commander style hammer) when you need to fire your first shot within 1 second of a start signal, gun in holster. Do this a couple times and you'll see the problem for Condition 2 carry.

David E
May 22, 2009, 02:14 AM
The original military requirements were for a pistol with a self-actuating safety that required no action by the shooter to disengage or engage. In hand - off safe, out of hand - on safe. The thumb safety was added later, the M-1910 looked just like a 1911 w/out a thumb safety.

IE; they expected the gun to be carried in Condition ZERO

SouthShoreTJ
May 22, 2009, 03:37 AM
If a 1911 is in condition 2 and the hammer is pulled back almost all the way and then released, the gun will fire. That means if the gun is holstered in condition 2 and the hammer gets caught on something and pulled back it could fire, also if the back of the hammer is struck hard enough it can fire. Putting the gun into condition two (lowering the hammer with a round in the chamber) is unsafe enough I wouldn't do it in my house for a fear of a ND. If you don't want to carry in condition 1 (cocked and locked) then carry in condition 3, hammer down no round in the chamber, and rack the slide after your draw to get to condition 0. Condition 1 is much safer than condition 2. I have never heard of a military or law enforcement organization carrying in condition 2, although I have heard of carrying in condition 3 (I think Israeli security forces carried this way at some point, hence the draw then slide rack called the "Israeli draw"?).

dmazur
May 22, 2009, 03:59 AM
If a 1911 is in condition 2 and the hammer is pulled back almost all the way and then released, the gun will fire. That means if the gun is holstered in condition 2 and the hammer gets caught on something and pulled back it could fire, also if the back of the hammer is struck hard enough it can fire.

Well, the 1911 (in either original or Series-80) has some form of half-cock notch that is supposed to engage the sear if the hammer slips off the full-cock hooks for some reason. Like it didn't reach them during a cocking operation. This mechanism works unless you have the trigger pulled back while you are cocking or snagging the hammer.

The 1911 firing pin, if it is to specification, is inertial. This means that it does not touch the primer when the hammer is lowered slowly (no inertia.) The hammer has to strike it from a distance to develop enough inertia to overcome the firing pin spring and hit the primer. When down, the hammer rests against the slide and doesn't transfer any energy to the firing pin when struck. (If you drop the 1911 on its muzzle on concrete, from 10 ft I believe, this can develop enough inertia when the gun stops moving that the firing pin can detonate the primer of a chambered round.)

John Wayne
May 22, 2009, 04:10 AM
I would also imagine the reason you don't hear this argument mentioned with other guns as much has more to do with the sheer volume of posts related to the 1911, than it does to the design of other guns.

Oyeboten
May 22, 2009, 04:15 AM
The Colt Model 1911 ( as such, ) had a Grip Safety and a Thumb Safety from the beginning.

The Colt Model 1905 .45 ACP Auto had no grip Safety or other Safety, and in essence was a .45 Calibre version of the Model 1902 'Sporting', 'Military' or 1903 'Pocket' .38 ACP Autos...possesing inertial Firing Pins, where, one Carried Hammer 'down', or, Hammer on half-cock, if carrying with a round chambered.


I believe the Model 1911 ( as such, ) posessed essentially the same inertial Bronze Firing Pin as had it's forbears.


Later renditions or recent renditions or emulations, may not, or do not.


I did drop a Model 1902 Sporting from waist height onto concrete, by accident of course, where it hit largely on the Round Hammer, and was in Hammer 'down' mode with a round in the chamber and charged Magazine...and, nothing happened.


I had experimented prior to that, tapping the 'down' Hammer with a Primed but empty Round in the chamber, wacking it pretty smartly with a short lengh of 2x 4, and also trying a medium size Rawhide Mallet, and I was not able to cause the round/primer to go off.


Hammer 'down' with one in the Chamber, on the early .38 Autos, or M1905 .45 Autos, while possibly disturbing to some on principle, was about one's only option other than half-cock, or, racking one in on short notice...and, far as I have heard, and asked around years ago, the practice had not occasioned any mis-haps anyone recalled.


1911 wise...having a crisply 'positive' detent keeping the Thumb Safety where one wants it, is a plus.


And, 'Condition 1' is how the Pistol was intended to be Carried, far as I know.

tkopp
May 22, 2009, 05:04 AM
Jeeper wrote:
Edit* why? because manual safeties have a tendency/possibility to switch off if you are being active. Ever checked your safety and found it had switched off? I find that scary

That's exacerbated by ambidextrous and extended safeties. I carry my Rock Island 1911 in a DeSantis Cozy Partner II IWB rig, which has a flap of leather which extends up just high enough to shield the safety from my body's movement. As a strong-side carry, the safety is tucked against my torso and even if my body rubs against something as I navigate the urban wilderness, there's no right-side safety to get caught and disengaged. The GI-spec safety is also, by its short and rounded nature, very unlikely to be disengaged accidentally. It would take a sharp force pressing from front to back between the pistol and my body. Even my portly girth can't snag and accomplish that, thanks to the holster design.

If the safety were extended and ambidextrous, however, even a moderate snag on the outside of the weapon in a front to back motion (such as brushing past a stationary object) could release the safety. You still get the grip safety, mind, and someone has to pull that trigger to make the gun go bang. Just bear in mind a GI-spec safety in a proper holster is very difficult to accidentally disengage, where your experience with an 'improved design' might indicate otherwise.

farscott
May 22, 2009, 08:46 AM
If the safety were extended and ambidextrous, however, even a moderate snag on the outside of the weapon in a front to back motion (such as brushing past a stationary object) could release the safety.Not with a properly fit ambi and a decent holster. I chose ambi safeties because I might need to run the gun with only my weak hand. In fact, that happened to me after a shoulder injury; I only shot lefty for ten weeks.

My daily, all day, IWB carry is a Series '70 Colt with a narrowed Wilson ambi. My backup, carried in a shoulder holster when needed, is a Baer Stinger with Baer's ambi. This ambi is a bit wider than the Wilson ambi. Both are common ambi safeties, and both are well fit to the respective pistols.

In all of the time I have carried these pistols, neither safety has never been wiped off in the holster. The safety detents are firm and precise, and only a deliberate swipe with a thumb or finger will actuate/deactivate the safety. Each holster is molded so that it resists a wiping action on the off-side lever that would release the safety. I can see that the safety could be wiped if the holster is not properly molded for the safety. That is a holster design issue, not a pistol issue as even a strong-side only safety could be actuated in a holster not properly fit to the pistol.

As for Condition 2, I will not do it with a 1911. Condition 1 carry eliminates the possibility of the hammer not being caught by the half-cock notch during the decocking motion as the decocking action is never attempted. That decocking motion does not appear to be something I would want to do after a dose of adrenaline was giving me the shakes after an incident where I drew the pistol. It also insures that one is not trying to holster a cocked and unlocked pistol as that could occur if one does not remember to decock the pistol while the adrenaline is still making things shaky. That could be an issue if one did draw the weapon and later holsters the weapon. Catching the trigger with a cover garment during holstering with the thumb safety off could easily force an AD/ND as the grip safety is disengaged during the holstering process.

Wiping the 1911 safety off as part of the draw and switching it back on before holstering, as mentioned by others, is part of training and good muscle memory.

71Commander
May 22, 2009, 08:58 AM
Edit* why? because manual safeties have a tendency/possibility to switch off if you are being active. Ever checked your safety and found it had switched off? I find that scary


That's not a big deal. The grip safety has to be disengaged and the trigger pulled in order to discharge the weapon.

Do a little test. Unload the weapon and cock and unlock. Carry it around the house for several hours then check to see if the trigger has fallen. I'd bet it didn't.

rbernie
May 22, 2009, 09:15 AM
If I'm using off-body carry, in which the pistol is likely to get jostled around, then I use Condition 2 carry. If I'm carrying on my body in a good holster, then I carry in Condition 1.

Oh, and avoid ambi safeties and you'll cut down the 'safety accidentally swiped off' scenario by a significant factor.

freakshow10mm
May 22, 2009, 09:23 AM
The gun was designed to be carried cocked and locked. That's how I carry it.

DeepSouth
May 22, 2009, 09:48 AM
Just curious, why NOT con 1?


Oh,and
Ever checked your safety and found it had switched off?

No

EHL
May 22, 2009, 10:09 AM
Ever checked your safety and found it had switched off?

No

Me either.

jon_in_wv
May 22, 2009, 10:24 AM
Because there is no legitimate reason to carry a 1911 in condition 2. It was designed to be carry cocked and locked and its safe to carry it that way. If your nervous about the safety getting clicked off when your carrying it, (it won't fire without the grip safety depressed or the trigger depressed anyhow) then carry it in a holster that is molded to prevent the safety from coming off. Problem solved.

rbernie
May 22, 2009, 10:53 AM
The gun was designed to be carried cocked and locked.Actually, there has been considerable evidence presented in this forum in past threads that the 1911 was NOT designed to be carried in Condition 1 but was intended by the Department of the Army to be carried in Condition 3 and often carried by soliders in Condition 2.

Nevertheless, Condition 1 carry *is* safe and most of us carry exactly that way if it's feasible.

If your nervous about the safety getting clicked off when your carrying it, (it won't fire without the grip safety depressed or the trigger depressed anyhow) then carry it in a holster that is molded to prevent the safety from coming off. Problem solved.
Unless you have an ambi safety and your cover garment sweeps it off. I have had that happen.

I no longer carry 1911s with ambi safeties.

rellascout
May 22, 2009, 01:15 PM
Because if I need to use the gun I want to be able to fire it instead of throwing it at the BG.

John Parker
May 22, 2009, 01:36 PM
I don't hate on it, I just don't see the reason for it. I carried mine condition 1. I don't see any reason to carry condition 2. When I was new to my 1911, I did put it in condition 2 a few times, (it doesn't look as 'scary' that way) but after having the hammer slip once, thankfully while my pistol was unloaded, I decided that I wouldn't do it anymore.

REAPER4206969
May 22, 2009, 01:43 PM
This thread makes the baby Browning cry.:(

mljdeckard
May 22, 2009, 01:52 PM
I HAVE found my safety off one time. It was carrying in a fanny pack. To this day, I don't know if I forgot to safe it, or if my daily moving around worked it off somehow. SO, I use the policy, if I'm carrying in a place where I can't easily draw or check the weapon, I leave the hammer down. The extra time to draw from a fanny pack makes the motion use in cocking it negligible anyway. When I carry IWB or shoulder, it's always condition 1.

jeeper01
May 22, 2009, 02:23 PM
Actually, there has been considerable evidence presented in this forum in past threads that the 1911 was NOT designed to be carried in Condition 1 but was intended by the Department of the Army to be carried in Condition 3 and often carried by soliders in Condition 2.

rbernie thank you for making this point. Too many people now days believe C&L is the only acceptable way to carry a 1911. (not that it doesn't have it's place)

The assumptions about what john browning would do are also a bit tiresome.. its disrespectful to put words in a dead guys mouth and no one seems to have documentation of this so you might as well call it your own speculation

Personally I am an advocate of condition 3. If I felt the need to save that 1 second between drawing and firing I would move somewhere safer. It would be stressful to live life on that short a hair trigger (mentally speaking). With that in mind I also like condition 2 because it gives you an extra round and 1 handed operation. This thread was just to find the reasoning behind the hatred of condition 2, I'm not trying to start an argument about which is better or trying to change any of your ways.

For those who are uneasy with manipulating the hammer (very understandable). Are you equally reluctant to decock a beretta 92 or a CZ without a decocker?

David E
May 22, 2009, 02:43 PM
carry it in a holster that is molded to prevent the safety from coming off. Problem solved.

Unless you have an ambi safety and your cover garment sweeps it off. I have had that happen.

I no longer carry 1911s with ambi safeties.

That's your choice, but totally unnecessary IF you pick the right holster to carry your ambi-safetied 1911 in.

The KyTac BraveHeart absolutely prevents inadvertant safety diesengagement while holstered, ambi or not.

JTQ
May 22, 2009, 03:04 PM
Interesting debate. I don't use Condition 2 because I feel it is less safe than Condition 1 or Condition 3. I also feel it has no advantages over the other two options. This is not to say you can't use Condition 2 if you have some need or valid rational for using it or just because you can.

When I rode a motorcycle, I always wore a full face helmet, leather jacket and gloves, jeans and boots. You could make the argument I would have better vision without the helmet and less fatigue without all the heavy gear, especially in the hot summer months. All are possibly true, but why not just use the safety devices available to you, especially if they make it easier to operate the equipment?

jon_in_wv
May 22, 2009, 03:14 PM
There is a difference between intention and DESIGN. It may have been intended to have been carried by soldiers in condition 3 but it was designed to be carried safely in condition one. I would like to see evidence that it was not designed to be carried in condition one.

rbernie
May 22, 2009, 03:25 PM
I don't use Condition 2 because I feel it is less safe than Condition 1 or Condition 3The 1911 has an intertial firing pin, i.e. a firing pin that is shorter than the slide recess that houses it and which is retained to the rear of its recess by a spring. The only way for the firing pin to strike the primer of a chambered round is if the hammer smacks the back of the firing pin, forcing it forward against its return spring. The only way that can happen is if the hammer is cocked, either on the half-cock notch (which should NEVER BE DONE) or fully cocked, and then released and allowed to strike the firing pin with enough energy to overcome the spring pressure and drive the firing pin forward.

If the hammer is down on the firing pin stop in Condition 2, the firing pin cannot protrude into the chamber and (since the hammer is resting on the stop on the end of the slide) there is no way for the hammer to impart any energy to the firing pin and cause a discharge. Condition 2 is the safest possible way to carry the pistol and still have a round in the chamber, since there is ZERO possibility of any impact or manipulation short of cocking the weapon to cause it to discharge.

Say what you will about Condition 2 being slower or unnecessary, and I'd probably agree. But you cannot declare it less safe, because it is very very safe.

I would like to see evidence that it was not designed to be carried in condition one.
Recently discussed here, as I alluded to earlier in the thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=441143
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=415221

Search is your friend. :)

Gryffydd
May 22, 2009, 03:31 PM
If I felt the need to save that 1 second between drawing and firing I would move somewhere safer.
Huh? So you think it's worth it to carry a gun where you are, but you don't think if you ever need to use the gun you'll need to use it quickly? How exactly does the level of danger in your area affect how quickly you'll need the gun *if* you need it, rather than just affecting how likely you are to need it?

Anyway, here's my take. I don't care about intentions. I care about implementation.
Condition 3: Too slow, too much manual effort/things to go wrong under duress. No real advantage unless you let small children play with your gun or something.
Condition 2: Too slow. The 1911 hammer was not designed to be cocked in a hurry. Compare it to your average single action revolver hammer. Some are better than others, but it's an awfully small thing to be manipulating while trying to draw and fire under stress. Then there's the manually lowering a hammer on a loaded chamber. And what's the advantage again? That it's safer than having A. your safety somehow come off, and then B. Your grip safety get depressed and then C. your trigger pulled at the same time?
Condition 1: Just as safe as the other two, but you can draw and fire quickly.

It's not so much that I "hate on" the other two, it's just that they have disadvantages but no real advantage.

Eyesac
May 22, 2009, 03:32 PM
Because there is no legitimate reason to carry a 1911 in condition 2

Exactly. I'm not going to cock anything if I get in a "badguy-has-a-knife/gun-fight" and is stabbing/shooting me. Think your gun is unsafe? Fix it, or don't carry it.

rbernie
May 22, 2009, 03:39 PM
The 1911 hammer was not designed to be cocked in a hurry. Compare it to your average single action revolver hammer. Some are better than others, but it's an awfully small thing to be manipulating while trying to draw and fire under stress. Not as JMB designed it. It's been narrowed and rounded over the years to its current incarnation, but the big ol' wide spur hammers of the original 1911 were hellafast to cock.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/media/ccp0/prodlg/CS342lg.jpg
(from http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=prodshow&ref=CS342)

I can cock mine (I have three that I've retrofitted with an 'old school' wide spur hammer) while drawing from a fanny pack, and right quick. It's not as fast as drawing in Condition 1 from a strong-side belt holster, but it's not significantly slower.

And some folk just can't seem to get their head around the notion that SOMETIMES YOU CANNOT CARRY on body. Sometimes, you have to throw the pistol in the glove box or a backpack or something similar. In those cases, Condition 2 is very useful.

Sticking to the dogma of Condition 1 carry will eventually let you down.

Gryffydd
May 22, 2009, 04:06 PM
It's been narrowed and rounded over the years to its current incarnation, but the big ol' wide spur hammers of the original 1911 were hellafast to cock.
True, but you really don't see those very often anymore, unless someone does it aftermarket... I suppose I should have said "Today's typically seen 1911 hammers were not designed..."
But even with the wider spur, it's still an action that takes your hand out of firing position, and still has the potential of getting messed up.

With the mil-spec (small) size of my thumb safety on my carry 1911, combined with the amount of effort needed to switch it off, combined with grip safety, I have complete confidence with my 1911 in condition one in my glove box or backpack. I might think differently about my Colt Series 70 Mk IV, with its extended thumb safety which requires MUCH less pressure to deactivate, but that grip safety is still a very comforting extra layer.

Sticking to the dogma of Condition 1 carry will eventually let you down.
Once I find a situation where I think something else is actually better I'll be happy to use it. So far, Condition 1 has pretty much always made the most sense--for me.

rbernie
May 22, 2009, 04:18 PM
But even with the wider spur, it's still an action that takes your hand out of firing position, and still has the potential of getting messed upActually, I draw with the right hand (strong side hand) as usual and cock the pistol with my left thumb as I slide my weak hand into a supporting position. It's really not hard, and it's the same motion that I use with my revolvers.

So far, Condition 1 has pretty much always made the most sense--for me.
Roger that. Most times, it does make the most sense.

Until it doesn't, and you'll know it when you get there. :)

ROBBY.1911
May 22, 2009, 04:46 PM
...if your gun has a beavertail grip safety, there is probably nothing more dangerous. if it is a GI configuration you are mch better off. a properly fit thumb safety should put you at ease about condition one.

jon_in_wv
May 22, 2009, 05:13 PM
Rbernie, I would consider the 1911 in its current configuration WITH a thumb safety to be the one we are talking about. The fact the prototype didn't have one has little merit to the conversation. The fact it that it DOES have the manual safety for the purpose of condition 1 carry so it is in fact DESIGNED to be safely carried in condition 1 as one of its carry modes. Stop reading into it so much, it CAN be carried other ways but it can safely be carried in condition one so, they point is, carry it in condition one. The OPs original intent was a discussion of condition TWO which I would think we can agree not as safe due to the design. The only exception would be the series 70 style with the firing pin lock. IN that case I guess it would be equally safe in all modes but tactically it would be more sound to carry it ready to go in condition 1 in my opinion.

rbernie
May 22, 2009, 07:14 PM
The OPs original intent was a discussion of condition TWO which I would think we can agree not as safe due to the design.Absolutely false. It's the other way around. A hammer that cannot fall cannot strike the firing pin.

The only exception would be the series 70 style with the firing pin lock. IN that case I guess it would be equally safe in all modes but tactically it would be more sound to carry it ready to go in condition 1 in my opinion.I think that you mean the Series 80 pistols. The Series 70 (and earlier) had no firing pin safety.

John Parker
May 22, 2009, 07:26 PM
Say what you will about Condition 2 being slower or unnecessary, and I'd probably agree. But you cannot declare it less safe, because it is very very safe.
I agree that once it's in position, sure, it's safe and the gun isn't going off. But to put it there, you have to drop the hammer. To drop the hammer, you have to pull the trigger. When you pull the trigger, the gun is designed to go off. Lose control of the hammer and off it goes. No one is perfect, people have had ADs/NDs because of it. Things happen, fingers slip...

rbernie
May 22, 2009, 07:30 PM
Absolutely. Which is why the original hammer, with its wide spur and narrower body, is terrific for manual decocking. Using the pinch method, there is no way to lose control of the hammer unless you literally let go of the hammer altogether.

76shuvlinoff
May 22, 2009, 07:50 PM
Absolutely. Which is why the original hammer, with its wide spur and narrower body, is terrific for manual decocking. Using the pinch method, there is no way to lose control of the hammer unless you literally let go of the hammer altogether.
__________________

I think a skeletonized hammer gives you an even better grip. I've "decocked" my Kimber many times with never a slip.

JTQ
May 22, 2009, 08:45 PM
rbernie,

But you cannot declare it less safe

I believe I can much as John Parker mentioned above. Since it is the hammer making contact with the firing pin and the firing pin contacting the primer of a round in the chamber that causes the pistol to fire. In Condition 1, the hammer never comes into contact with the firing pin and you have the thumb and grip safeties preventing that from happening. In Condition 3 there is no round in the chamber which means the pistol can't fire. In Condition 2 you are intentionally putting the hammer on the firing pin and have by-passed the thumb and grip safeties. I Condition 2 unsafe? Maybe not. Is it less safe than Condition 1 and Condition 3? I believe so.

orionengnr
May 22, 2009, 09:05 PM
Ever checked your safety and found it had switched off? I find that scary
That's not a big deal. The grip safety has to be disengaged and the trigger pulled in order to discharge the weapon.
Do a little test. Unload the weapon and cock and unlock. Carry it around the house for several hours then check to see if the trigger has fallen. I'd bet it didn't.

When I first started carying a 1911, a friend (and experienced 1911 carrier) told me that he occasionally found his ambi-safety equipeed Kimber with the safety off (usually after getting into and out of his truck). I wore my Kimber unloaded IWB around the house for a week or two, found the safety off a time or two, and took the 1911 to a good local smith (www.crawleycustom.com) and had the ambi replaced with a single sided safety. No problems from then on.

Now that I've carried a 1911 for a while, I no longer find the idea of a disengaged thumb safety "scary". As long as it is in the holster, it is safe as it can be. The grip safety and firing pin safety are still fully operational, and no-one's finger is on the trigger.

coltoriginal
May 22, 2009, 09:10 PM
Stop reading into it so much, it CAN be carried other ways but it can safely be carried in condition one so, they point is, carry it in condition one. The OPs original intent was a discussion of condition TWO which I would think we can agree not as safe due to the design. The only exception would be the series 70 style with the firing pin lock. IN that case I guess it would be equally safe in all modes but tactically it would be more sound to carry it ready to go in condition 1 in my opinion.

As the OP maybe i should clarify, I know condition 1 is safe. I'm not trying to take it away from you or tell you my way is better for any reason (i mean no offense). I'm just making the point that Condition 2 is also safe despite increasingly frequent internet propaganda stating otherwise.

most beretta 92's and CZ's are regularly decocked with thumbs and its no different on a 1911. And as stated previously the hammer rests on the slide not just the pin so its not going to strike anything anyhow.

Huh? So you think it's worth it to carry a gun where you are, but you don't think if you ever need to use the gun you'll need to use it quickly? How exactly does the level of danger in your area affect how quickly you'll need the gun *if* you need it, rather than just affecting how likely you are to need it?

Is this a serious question? I'm a civilian and god forbid i do not live in mortal fear every second of every day about a sudden attack where the fraction of a second needed to rack the slide is going to be life or death. Does that mean i'm unworthy to carry a 1911 at all? If however you live in the slums of a Hollywood movie and get held at gunpoint daily, or are part of a military operation then yes that fraction of a second is probably very valuable. In that regard, level of danger would dictate my state of readiness, yes.

rbernie
May 22, 2009, 10:06 PM
Since it is the hammer making contact with the firing pin and the firing pin contacting the primer of a round in the chamber that causes the pistol to fire. JTQ - your scenario can never happen, and (sorry to be blunt) your description of things is utterly incorrect. This is not how the 1911 (and many other pistols) is designed at all.

Post #31 explained CLEARLY how the firing pin can NEVER contact the hammer and protrude into the chamber at the same time. IT'S TOO SHORT.

Clarence
May 22, 2009, 10:30 PM
I for one cannot understand why this issue is constantly being debated.

I ONLY carry in Condition 1 and would rather carry a DA revolver than a 1911 in condition 2 or condition 3.

Here is THE perfect reason that Condition 2 should be avoided at all costs.............IMO: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=441761

JTQ
May 22, 2009, 10:40 PM
What scenario are you talking about?

My description you quote is the ignition sequence of the 1911. It is the same as nearly every pistol. The only difference between putting the pistol in Condition 2 and shooting the pistol is the speed at which the hammer is lowered. The hammer does not touch the firing pin in Condition 1 and there is no round in the chamber in Condition 3. For those reasons I consider both safer than Condition 2.

David E
May 22, 2009, 11:10 PM
JTQ, the 1911 has a rebounding firing pin. This means that when struck by a hammer falling from full cock, there is enough enertia to overcome the tension of the firing pin spring. Then, the firing pin travels beyond the firing pin hole in the breech, striking the primer.

Once this is over (nano-second), the firing pin spring recovers from the compression and returns the firing pin to its normal position, which is inside the firing pin channel. It does NOT protrude past the breech face as you seem to conclude.

So, with the hammer fully forward, the firing pin is NOT protruding out, and does NOT rest against the primer of a chambered round.

To test this fact, take a primed case and chamber it. Lower the hammer. take a non-marring mallet and beat the snot out of the 1911 hammer. If your gun is within specs (I'd be shocked if it were not) the primer will not detonate.

BlindJustice
May 22, 2009, 11:33 PM
I carry Condition 1 a lot, but sometimes in condition 3, empty chamber
but keep it cocked so when racking the slide if need be
I don't have to overcome the 23 lbs Main Spring.

Also, I have a 75B and lower the hammer on it manually for
DA first shot, it's fairly easy to do thjis, not as strong a
mainspring - with the stronger mainspring it's tough for me
to lower the hammer to the half cock position so I never
do a COnd. 2 carry,

Randall

logical
May 22, 2009, 11:56 PM
If 98 years of debate haven't resolved this........

JTQ
May 23, 2009, 12:28 AM
David E,

JTQ, the 1911 has a rebounding firing pin. This means that when struck by a hammer falling from full cock, there is enough enertia to overcome the tension of the firing pin spring. Then, the firing pin travels beyond the firing pin hole in the breech, striking the primer.

Once this is over (nano-second), the firing pin spring recovers from the compression and returns the firing pin to its normal position, which is inside the firing pin channel. It does NOT protrude past the breech face as you seem to conclude.

So, with the hammer fully forward, the firing pin is NOT protruding out, and does NOT rest against the primer of a chambered round.

To test this fact, take a primed case and chamber it. Lower the hammer. take a non-marring mallet and beat the snot out of the 1911 hammer. If your gun is within specs (I'd be shocked if it were not) the primer will not detonate.

I don't think you are telling me anything I don't know. If you look at my last post where I said....

The only difference between putting the pistol in Condition 2 and shooting the pistol is the speed at which the hammer is lowered.

When putting the pistol into Condition 2, if for any reason that hammer drops faster than you want it to, that round is going to fire. There is no chance the pistol will fire when you put it in Condition 1 or Condition 3.

GLOOB
May 23, 2009, 02:07 AM
When putting the pistol into Condition 2, if for any reason that hammer drops faster than you want it to, that round is going to fire.

This only applies if you don't know how to do it. In reality, if the hammer drops faster than you want it to, it still shouldn't fire. If you're skipping step 3, you should learn how the halfcock and/or firing pin safeties work.

1. Block hammer
2. Pull trigger
3. RELEASE TRIGGER
4. Lower hammer.

Or maybe I give the 1911 design too much credit. On my FEG PA-63, at least, there's a firing pin safety which would prevent a hammer strike from hitting the firing pin unless the trigger is held all the way back.

Extremely Pro Gun
May 23, 2009, 03:10 AM
If you are worried about accidental discharge than get a hk or sig.

John Parker
May 24, 2009, 02:41 AM
1. Block hammer
2. Pull trigger
3. RELEASE TRIGGER
4. Lower hammer.
Yeah, that's how it's supposed to work. But how is that better or safer than either condition 1 or condition 3? I don't see the advantage, unless I'm open-carrying in an environment where dirt, mud, whatever could get into the internals, but in that case, I'd carry with a flap holster, hammer down in condition 3. I'm personally not seeing a scenario where condition 2 would be better. If someone can explain that scenario to me, then I'd change my mind for that specific instance.

Noxx
May 24, 2009, 05:24 AM
If 98 years of debate haven't resolved this........

QFT.

dirty dave
May 24, 2009, 08:11 AM
WellI had a llama 380 built like a 1911 fall out of my waist onceupon a time.And it was in stage #1 loaded round in chamber hammer in halfcock.Fell on concrete sidewalk.Did not fire.Guess the grip safety saved me.

The Lone Haranguer
May 24, 2009, 08:49 AM
When carried on my person, I find cocking the hammer on the draw to be difficult under time and adrenalin pressure, much more so than simply wiping off the thumb safety. This operation might be easier with the original style hammer and grip safety, but is made much more difficult with stubby hammers and beavertails. For home defense, where hopefully you have some time to react and make ready, it makes more sense.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
May 24, 2009, 09:38 AM
1 or 3 only----whole thing about 2 is that sticky thing about decocking---and yes--I've had an AD with a skelotonized Commander hammer :what:---I was being carefull and it still happened---no one or anything was hurt--other than my pride for being so stupid.

Con 2--DON'T DO IT!!!

moooose102
May 24, 2009, 09:44 AM
Edit* why? because manual safeties have a tendency/possibility to switch off if you are being active. Ever checked your safety and found it had switched off? I find that scary

i had this happen once. yes, i was rather concerned.i have no idea what happened, or why. i have been carrying it for over a year since, with no other issues.

nitetrane98
May 24, 2009, 09:52 AM
Sounds like the SFS gadget they put on some FN Hi Power's is just the thing for those who are afraid to carry in C1. I think C&S has them for 1911s.

A few other things.

1. Block hammer
2. Pull trigger
3. RELEASE TRIGGER
4. Lower hammer.

That gets you to the halfcock notch.

In the interest of accuracy, actually with the hammer sitting on the FP energy can still be transfered to the FP. Though an extremely unlikely event, theoretically it is possible to transfer enough energy to move the FP. Wouldn't begin to hazard a guess to what that might have to be. A LOT. Think of croquet or pool balls or those little swinging steel balls, the hammer is just another piece to transfer energy through.

In stressful situations the brain immediately goes to what it has trained for. I trained in cond 1, that is all I know. I don't want my brain running through a pull down menu of options before reacting.

Carry however you're comfortable but train that way and stay that way. KISS

fineredmist
May 24, 2009, 10:14 AM
John M. Browning was a practial man as well as a genius so when designed the pistol now known as the 1911 he had this in mind. He wanted a pistol that was dependable, packed sufficient power and was ready for instant use. The grip safety was not part of the original design but incorporated after the U.S. Army decided it needed one. The manual of arms for the 1911 is simple, insert a loaded magazine in the magazine well, fully retract the slide and release thus chambering a cartridge. At this point the shooter has only two options, to fire the weapon or engage the thumb safety and holster. Lowering the hammer is not safe and it also requires recocking which is also not a safe procedure especially if done under stress.
If you are uncomfortable with the idea of carring a 1911 or any.other single action semi auto pistol cocked and locked then find something else to carry.

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2009, 03:27 PM
The M1910 only had a grip safety. It is the thumb lock that was requested by the military.

VTChuck
May 24, 2009, 03:43 PM
Conditions I, II, and III carries refer to 1911-style handguns, i.e. single action only trigger with a cocking hammer, and further, the thumb safety CANNOT be engaged while on condition II.

The reason condition II is dangerous is therefore two-fold. 1: With a round in a chamber, you MUST drop the hammer while pulling the trigger to get to condition II, that act in and by itself is very dangerous and can cause an unintended discharge if not exercised carefully; 2. With the hammer dropped and a round in the chamber, it doesn't take must of a bump or knock on the back of the hammer to cause the gun to discharge. (My friend and I actully tested this. With the gun fastened on a shooting bench and on condition II, he hit the back of the hammer with a empty magazine a few times and it caused the gun to discharge.)

If safety is your concern, condition II is absolutely the wrong way to go.

If the perceived "danger" of a cocked hammer is your concern, then carry it without a round in the chamber and practice drawing and racking the slide simultaneously on your own time.

Carl
May 24, 2009, 04:37 PM
Ok guys, hear me out on this. I'm left handed and if I decide to get a regular old fashion 1911 without the ambi thumb safety, then I believe that I could carry in Condition 2 since it'd be difficult for me to flick off the one sided thumb safety, being left handed. I could carry in Condition 2 (with an old fashion 1911 and not have the trouble with the stubby hammer and bigger beavertail being in the way, and listen to this.

Instead of decocking the hammer if a situation is diffused, I could put it into Con1 until I have the time later to lower the hammer with patience and not influenced with adrenaline shakes (moments right after a diffused situation)

Does that sound plausible?

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2009, 04:39 PM
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/REAPER1911-A1/M1910.jpg?t=1243193784

rbernie
May 24, 2009, 05:04 PM
2. With the hammer dropped and a round in the chamber, it doesn't take must of a bump or knock on the back of the hammer to cause the gun to discharge. (My friend and I actully tested this. With the gun fastened on a shooting bench and on condition II, he hit the back of the hammer with a empty magazine a few times and it caused the gun to discharge.)
If the hammer is fully decocked, it rests on the firing pin stop and the firing pin is pushed flush into the slide. There is no way for the hammer to impart any force onto the firing pin - period.

The only way for the gun to have discharged under the conditions stated is if either the firing pin spring was removed/insanely weak (in which case the inertia of the blow caused the discharge - something that would have just as easily occurred in Condition 1) or the firing pin was way out of spec or the gun was on the half-cock notch and not actually fully decocked.

actually with the hammer sitting on the FP energy can still be transfered to the FP. Though an extremely unlikely event, theoretically it is possible to transfer enough energy to move the FP. Can't. Happen.

I dunno why this doesn't seem to be obvious, but if the hammer is down IT IS NOT RESTING ON THE FIRING PIN. It's resting on the firing pin stop, and the firing pin is pushed into the slide (without coming out the firing pin hole in the chamber, since it's too short). No energy imparted on the hammer will directly cause the firing pin to move. The only way that the firing pin can move is via inertia - a blow to the back of the gun can cause ANY firing pin to move fore/aft in a pistol that does not have a firing pin block, occasionally with enough force to cause a discharge. This can occur regardless of hammer position - cocked or not - since the dynamics in question have everything to do with the inertia of the firing pin and nothing to do with the hammer.

This is why Condition 2 is the safest way to CARRY; the hammer cannot possibly fall and hit the firing pin. (This is also why you should never carry on the safety notch, aka half-cock, because if that notch breaks the hammer CAN fall and cause a discharge and the thumb safety cannot stop it.)

Lowering the hammer is not safe and it also requires recocking which is also not a safe procedure especially if done under stress.
I agree fully with the latter part of your statement, and so did the US Army (who asked that the thumb safety be added specifically to keep troopers from having to decock under stress).

However, I do not believe that manually decocking a pistol, under normal circumstances, is so fraught with peril as to be untenable. I do it all the time.

If you're not comfortable doing it - then don't. But you probably shouldn't make blanket statements that manually decocking a pistol is patently unsafe, because it can be done quite safely if one has a mind to learn how.

Getting to Condition 2 is less safe (from an AD perspective) than flicking on a thumb safety. Carrying in Condition 2 is more safe (from an AD perspective) than relying upon the thumb safety.

seeker_two
May 24, 2009, 05:07 PM
Another thing to consider....

When the 1911 was introduced, the predominate sidearm for the cavalry was the Colt SAA...a revolver that the soldiers would draw from holster, cock, and fire. If a rider decided not to shoot, he usually would fire in a safe direction (as decocking a SAA from horseback was somewhat risky to horse, rider, and anyone near--as is trying to operate the slide to chamber from Condition 3). The 1910/1911 design presented a problem since, unless you emptied the whole mag, the SAA procedure wouldn't work. Hence, the grip and thumb safety was developed. That way, the cavalry could adapt the 1911 easily to their manual of arms.....

Draw....cock....fire....thumb-safe...holster....decock upon dismounting....


I've carried a 1911, a 9mm Tokarev, and a M43 Firestar in Condition 2 with no ill effects....just takes a little dry fire and range time to get it down.... :cool:

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2009, 05:16 PM
Basic Field Manuel
Automatic Pistol
Caliber .45
M1911 And 1911A1

Section IV
Functioning

.12 Method Of Operation
b. If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked may be carried safely at full cock and its only necessary to press down the safety lock when raising the pistol to the firing position.
....

rbernie
May 24, 2009, 05:22 PM
Absolutely. This isn't an argument AGAINST Condition 1 carry. It's an argument defending the utility of Condition 2 carry.

Dunno why some folk seem to feel that carrying in Condition 2 (when appropriate) somehow diminishes their preference for Condition 1.

doubs43
May 24, 2009, 05:50 PM
However, I do not believe that manually decocking a pistol, under normal circumstances, is so fraught with peril as to be untenable. I do it all the time.

Agree 100%. Over the years I've probably lowered the hammer of a 1911 on a loaded chamber SAFELY several thousand times..... without a SINGLE AD. My bedside 1927 Argentine is condition 2 and has been for all the years it's been there. Except for range time, that's how it stays.

There's really no trick to it. If you're able to walk and chew gum at the same time, you're coordinated enough to lower the hammer SAFELY on a loaded chamber. Hold the cocked pistol in your right hand. Place your thumb hard against the hammer spur FRONT to BACK, squeeze the trigger and ease the hammer down.

This method works for me and has for many years. I'm completely comfortable with it. My several 1911's in the house are all in condition 2.

OTOH, if you lack the confidence and/or coordination to safely place a 1911 in condition 2, then don't do it! Likewise, if you see no need or reason to have a 1911 in condition 2, then don't even consider it. It's really a matter of personal choice.

John Parker
May 24, 2009, 08:49 PM
I'm still waiting to hear about the advantage of condition 2 over 1 or 3! Guys that do 2, what is your reasoning?

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2009, 09:05 PM
Lack of confidence/training as well as ignorance of the pistols mechanics, or simply fear.

Dan Crocker
May 24, 2009, 09:47 PM
Reaper are you saying that is why people choose cond. 2 over conds. 1 or 3?

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2009, 09:52 PM
Yes.

JTQ
May 24, 2009, 10:08 PM
rebernie wrote,

Getting to Condition 2 is less safe (from an AD perspective) than flicking on a thumb safety. Carrying in Condition 2 is more safe (from an AD perspective) than relying upon the thumb safety.

I could probably be persuaded to agree with this statement.

The follow up question would be ... "how likely is an accidental discharge getting to ether condition and subsequently carrying in said condition?"

The 1911 has a thumb safety, grip safety, firing pin safety (some models), and some have counted the brain and the trigger finger as additional safeties.

To get an accidental discharge going to Condition 2, first you disconnect the "brain safety" when you tell your hand grab the pistol and disconnect the grip safety, then you disengage the thumb safety, then you disconnect the "trigger finger safety" when you put your finger on the trigger and pull, thereby disconnecting the firing pin safety. You have now defeated all of the safeties typically associated with the 1911 pistol. You are relying on the thumb and forefinger of your off hand to keep the pistol from firing. I'll give you that most don't oil the sides of their hammers, but most will likely have some oil on their slide and no doubt you just used that off hand to retract the slide and chamber a round possibly getting oil on your thumb and forefinger. The chances of not having a wide spur hammer is probably pretty good, since most of the 1911's sold over the past 20 years are not equipped with one. Now you probably have a slim, short hammer, and possibly a light coat of oil on the thumb and forefinger of the off hand you are grabbing the hammer with. Is that a likely scenario for an accidental discharge? You decide.

We have already conceded it safer putting the pistol into Condition 1 rather than Condition 2. Now we should consider how likely is it to have an accidental discharge while carrying in Condition 1. Let's say we have thrown our unholstered Condition 1, 1911 into our backpack with a bunch of other "stuff". To get an accidental discharge, something would need to disengage the thumb safety, and then together at the same time disengage the grip safety and pull the trigger. Is that a likely scenario for an accidental discharge? You decide.

I don't doubt there are thousands (possibly millions) of people who have safely put their pistol into Condition 2, millions of times. The question is which scenario is more likely to produce an accidental discharge? The first in Condition 2, where you have chosen to actively defeat all of the 1911's safeties, and where at least two posters in this thread alone have already admitted to having had accidental discharges with their own weapons going to Condition 2. No knock on them, I believe both are probably very safety conscious in their gun handling, but accidents do happen and you have chosen to bypass all of the 1911's safeties. Or is it more likely that somehow the thumb, grip, and firing pin safeties are all defeated by random chance in your backpack, barring of course you're not carrying a backpack full of clamps. We have had posters in this thread say their thumb safeties have disengaged, but none have had accidental discharges since the grip safety wasn't disengaged and the trigger wasn't pulled.

I will admit, as unlikely as I feel it would be for the thumb safety to be disengaged, and the grip safety disengaged and trigger pulled at the same time while in a pack, if I were carrying loose in a pack, I would put the pistol in Condition 3. The 1911 has many options for carry. The point is for you to understand the risks and benefits involved in each option and decide which is right for you. For me that means Condition 1 or Condition 3. If you have thoroughly weighed all the advantages and disadvantages of each mode of carry and chosen Condition 2, more power to you.

PT1911
May 24, 2009, 10:18 PM
for me it is two things... First, loading and dropping the hammer every day for years on end greatly increases the likelyhood that you will have an accidental discharge. Second, in a situation that would require you to actually pull your gun for self defense or the defense of someone else, you may not have time to take the effort of holding the gun in one hand and using the off hand to reach up and cock the hammer. (there is no reasonable way/comfortable way to cock the 1911 one handed...save the de-cocking for double actions that actually have a DE-COCK...

rbernie
May 24, 2009, 10:32 PM
Guys that do 2, what is your reasoning?I carry my 1911 in Condition 2 in those situations in which I choose to carry a loaded pistol but cannot do so in a holster. I am simply not comfortable having my 1911 bounce around unrestrained in a pack or glovebox and trust to the grip/thumb safeties to not get inadvertently disengaged.

When I carry in a holster, I carry in Condition 1.

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2009, 10:38 PM
Why not simply leave it holstered in your glove box or pack?

rbernie
May 24, 2009, 10:44 PM
Most don't fit, due to their width. Those that do, don't let me get a clean draw. I wind up losing more time to getting the pistol out of the holster than I do in manually cocking it.

doubs43
May 24, 2009, 11:20 PM
Lack of confidence/training as well as ignorance of the pistols mechanics, or simply fear.

Or, none of the above. I choose to place my 1911 in condition 2 because that's what suits ME. When I need the approval of someone, who I don't know, posting on an internet forum, it'll be time to give up shooting altogether. Until then I'll continue using condition 2 because that's what I want to do. Everyone else is free to do as they choose.

REAPER4206969
May 24, 2009, 11:34 PM
Why does it “suit” you? Is it because you are confident in that technique? If so, why? Is it because that is how you were trained? Is it because you believe the weapon is poorly designed? You say “none of the above” so tell us why none of those apply to you.

PT1911
May 24, 2009, 11:41 PM
I am with reaper... there is nothing wrong with your choice, but saying you do something just because is not a valid or informative response to someone who is considering different carry options.

I am not trying to tell anyone what they should do or shouldn't do only provide my opinion based on the design of the gun in question and its timely use.

David E
May 25, 2009, 12:09 AM
However, I do not believe that manually decocking a pistol, under normal circumstances, is so fraught with peril as to be untenable. I do it all the time.

For me, that is not the real issue. I understand the technique for safely lowering that hammer.

But, as I asked previously (and no one responded to this point,) how fast can you COCK the hammer under time pressure? Can you do it 10 out of 10 ? 20 out of 20? One handed? Weak handed ?

Of course, most will reply that they'll have plenty of time, etc, etc, ad nauseum, to deftly cock the hammer at their leisure. I've heard the same arguments for Condition 3 carry.

I'm going to the range Monday, so I'll compare the time frames. I will do FIVE reps max.

Anyone else is invited to do the same so we can compare more times.

I will set up a steel IPSC target at 7 yds. Gun in hand. CED shot timer used. Starting at "low ready,"

Condition 2:

I will do two hand, strong hand only and weak hand only (thumb OFF hammer) I will accept ANY hit on the steel, since I'm going for maximum speed.

Condition 3:

I will only compare two handed on this one.

Condition 1:

Same hands, etc, as C-2

PT1911
May 25, 2009, 12:17 AM
there is no real practical way to cock the 1911 with one hand unless you have huge hands... you are required to put your off hand in a strange position to cock the gun, then aquire your target and defend yourself. there is no valid argument that any method is faster, more comfortable, or allows you to put rounds down range quicker than condition 1. draw, normal position depresses the safety, and you are ready to defend yourself within 1-3 seconds of recognizing the threat.

REAPER4206969
May 25, 2009, 12:21 AM
The important factor to consider with C2 is the weak grip necessary to thumb cock an M1911. It is very easy to drop it or be disarmed by your adversary.

doubs43
May 25, 2009, 12:43 AM
I am with reaper... there is nothing wrong with your choice, but saying you do something just because is not a valid or informative response to someone who is considering different carry options.

I don't consider saying that someone who uses condition 2 has a "Lack of confidence/training as well as ignorance of the pistols mechanics, or simply fear." to be a statement that encourages civil conversation. Obviously it disapproves of condition 2 but it's hardly an informative post.

Over 60 years of pistol shooting - 49 of them with the 1911 - has provided experience and habits that I'm comfortable using. There are several 1911's plus other pistols in my house. All have hammers and all are in condition 2. Condition 1 in the house makes little sense to me and when the grandchildren come to visit, the pistols all become condition 3 before they arrive as they don't have the strength to work the slides. (None are where they can easily get to them anyway.) Home invaders would have to come up a flight of stairs after kicking in the door so cocking the pistol isn't a problem.

When I carry a pistol in the car, it's either in the console or on the seat and in condition 2. I don't take a holster and cocking the hammer would take no more time than pulling the pistol from a holster. Sometimes I take a Makarov and in condition 2, the hammer will not contact the firing pin unless the trigger is all the way back. It can be fired double action as well.

Often, when I go to the range (2,3 or more times a week), I'm alone and there are wild dogs around and sometimes homeless people pass on the nearby railroad tracks. I keep a 1911 on the bench in condition 2. When I go downrange, I usually carry it in my belt. Even if I wear a holster, I use condition 2 because that's what I'm comfortable doing. Condition 1 is fine and I've carried that way as well as used it in competition but over the years I find I like condition 2 in most situations best.

I understand the advantage of condition 1 and those who choose to carry that way will not be criticized by me. Once one understands the three conditions, it's up to them to choose how they want to carry or keep the pistol. You can disagree with my choice but it's not necessary to disparage anyone. After all, it's still a personal choice and if you elect to use condition 3, that's fine with me.

rbernie
May 25, 2009, 12:45 AM
there is no real practical way to cock the 1911 with one hand unless you have huge hands... you are required to put your off hand in a strange position to cock the gun, then aquire your target and defend yourself.Because you've never learned how doesn't mean that there isn't a way to do it that makes it works.

The important factor to consider with C2 is the weak grip necessary to thumb cock an M1911. Don't thumb cock it with the strong-side hand.

As I tried to explain in post #36:
I draw with the right hand (strong side hand) as usual and cock the pistol with my left thumb as I slide my weak hand into a supporting position. It's really not hard, and it's the same motion that I use with my revolvers.
It works. I'm regularly about a quarter second slower with it than I am with a Condition 1 draw, but that's mostly due to the fact that I don't practice Condition 2 draw nearly as much as Condition 1. I doubt that I'll ever get equally fast, since this technique does require that I slide the weak hand up a bit further than normal during presentation and get it back down in time to complete the hand extension and get the front sight on target.

But it's very do-able.

I normally have the hammer cocked right about the time that the pistol is level with my sternum and as I'm presenting the muzzle towards the target. This two-handed presentation can easily be morphed into a one-handed shot by simply taking the weak hand and using it as a block while completing the presentation with the strong hand.

REAPER4206969
May 25, 2009, 12:58 AM
So now it is a two handed proposition? Why not just carry C3? The only advantage to your method is another cartridge.

seeker_two
May 25, 2009, 10:44 AM
The important factor to consider with C2 is the weak grip necessary to thumb cock an M1911. It is very easy to drop it or be disarmed by your adversary.

If your adversary is that close, you shouldn't be going for your gun...you won't have time. That's where the empty-hand skills will be more useful. When you have time and distance, draw.

rbernie
May 25, 2009, 11:50 AM
Why not just carry C3? The only advantage to your method is another cartridge.
And a significant time savings, and less to get wrong (misfeed, etc.).

Y'all clearly never grew up shooting revolvers, or thumb cocking with the offhand thumb would be second nature to ya..... ;)

Gryffydd
May 25, 2009, 12:22 PM
I'm a civilian and god forbid i do not live in mortal fear every second of every day about a sudden attack where the fraction of a second needed to rack the slide is going to be life or death.
So you're anticipating a slow attack where you have plenty of warning? Sorry, but muggings and related activities happen everywhere, and they go down about the same way everywhere. They don't mug you nicely just because you're not in the hood at the moment.

Carl
May 25, 2009, 02:21 PM
What about condition zero? It's not as dangerous as people think. You still have two safeties. Grip safety and keeping the finger off the trigger. It would be no different than a glock or XD right?

dmazur
May 25, 2009, 03:57 PM
What about condition zero? It's not as dangerous as people think. You still have two safeties. Grip safety and keeping the finger off the trigger. It would be no different than a glock or XD right?

I have limited understanding of other platforms, but I believe both the Glock and XD have some kind of firing pin lock that's disengaged when the trigger is pulled.

You might argue that a Colt Series 80 has a similar firing pin block as the Glock or XD, in that the user has to pull the trigger to disable this safety. The original 1911 design has no firing pin safety, and comparing it to modern designs is difficult.

Yes there are safety mechanisms in place in addition to the thumb safety. However, there is considerable support for using the safeties that are available. The famous "shirt tail caught in trigger guard" is defeated by the thumb safety, and would present a possibility of a ND if the pistol was in Condition 0.

So the "1911 in Condition 0 is the same as a Glock" statement isn't quite correct, as most 1911's aren't Series 80, AFAIK.

coltoriginal
May 25, 2009, 04:09 PM
So you're anticipating a slow attack where you have plenty of warning? Sorry, but muggings and related activities happen everywhere, and they go down about the same way everywhere. They don't mug you nicely just because you're not in the hood at the moment.

Have you ever been mugged? and if so did you shoot him? I haven't been mugged and i don't carry a gun solely waiting for the opportunity to kill the spontaneous mugger. I'd rather give him my wallet than shoot him, to me killing is a last resort. If he's going to kill me it will likely be blindsided shooting/stabbing me and rob my corpse then i'm screwed anyway.

Have you ever drawn and fired on your mugger in the x# of seconds you clocked yourself at on the range? I haven't

Are you really truly at the ready 24/7 to draw and shoot-to-kill in a fraction of a second? I'm not, and i'd bet that in the moment very few are. Most that will are likely to do so recklessly

sorry i'm not as trigger-happy as you, perhaps that makes me the much feared liberal. But none of my points above disqualify me from the right to carry.



back to the original question now.
Have we agreed that once in c2 the gun is safe?
if we have agreed on that then this becomes an argument about whether or not decockers are necessary. I'm sure some of the CZ and beretta guys have something to say about that.

Gryffydd
May 26, 2009, 12:12 PM
Are you really truly at the ready 24/7 to draw and shoot-to-kill in a fraction of a second?
No, I'm not. That's why it makes sense that the one thing that can be ready 24/7 (my gun) should be.
sorry i'm not as trigger-happy as you,
How does recognizing the fact that if you ever need a gun you may very well need it QUICKLY make me trigger happy?
But none of my points above disqualify me from the right to carry.
Who on earth said anything about your right to carry? Where did that even come from!? :eek: All I did was probe into the unusual logic that says it's worth it to carry a gun, but not worth it to have the gun as ready as safely possible because you won't ever need it quickly.
perhaps that makes me the much feared liberal
Pulling random arguments that don't make any sense or have any relation to anything that's been said does more to make that case. And I don't think "feared" is precisely the right term, though I'm sure you'd like to think so. :p

Philip Marlowe
May 26, 2009, 12:26 PM
I too missed the news letter about decockers being 'liberal'...

Guess I'll chuck my HKs and Sig in the garbage.

That said - very interesting info on carry styles. Glad the OP made this thread...

polekitty
May 26, 2009, 12:54 PM
No sir, South Shore T, it won't fire. Just releasing the hammer on a modern 1911 won't fire it. You have to also have the grip safety depressed at the same time. And I do agree the safest gun on the planet is a modern 1911, carried condition one, "cocked & locked." If that makes anyone nervous then go for something like a DAO pistol, maybe an FNH, Sig, Hk, Taurus, whatever. And in passing I would mention "snagging" the hammer on a 1911 won't fire it, but "snagging the trigger" on a Glock is really bad news!!

tipoc
May 26, 2009, 09:09 PM
No doubt about it condition one is not only a safe way to carry it's the fastest way to bring the gun into action and when I carry a 1911 for the purposes of self defense and in a proper rig, condition one is the way I carry.

But when hunting in rough country, and a 1911 is my sidearm, I often carry condition 2 in a rig that helps keep the dirt and grit out. The hammer down helps keep trash out. As my long gun is the primary weapon and there is no anticipation of immediate need of a handgun, Condition 2 works well. This is an old G.I. method, by the way.

I've also carried condition 2 while pocket carrying where a holster was unwise and in a belly band I tried for awhile where a C&L Detonics was not comfortable or safe as I saw it.

I've had to carry condition 2 in a paper sack in a shoulder bag and in a tool bag. I've slept with a gun in condition 2 in a sleeping bag where C&L was uncomfortable and made no sense that I could see. I've carried condition 2 in a paper bag in a briefcase.

If you live with 1911s long enough you get to see that condition 2 has it's uses. The gun was built to be carried 3 ways. Each has it's place.

tipoc

ferretray
May 27, 2009, 10:56 AM
The fact is that the more unnecessary screwing around you do (Lowering the hammer with a loaded chamber) the more likely an ND.
To ready: Insert mag, rack slide and engage thumb safety.
To make safe: release mag, disengage thumb safety (Keeping finger away from trigger) and rack slide.
Simple really.

texagun
May 27, 2009, 11:55 AM
To make safe: release mag, disengage thumb safety (Keeping finger away from trigger) and rack slide.
Simple really.

Not so simple if you do it wrong. I saw a young MP die one morning after a night of guard duty when another guy failed to follow the rules exactly. We were clearing our weapons before getting on a truck when the guy ahead of me failed to perform step #1 (remove the magazine). He racked the slide and pulled the trigger (on a supposedly empty weapon) and shot the guy ahead of him in the back of the head. BE CAREFUL WHEN FOLLOWING THIS PROCEDURE....STAY ALERT AND DO IT RIGHT.

Dan Crocker
May 27, 2009, 12:03 PM
It's simple to do it right. I've seen numerous incidents of guys shooting into clearing barrels. We all laughed when an O-5 fired three times into the barrel before the Sergeant Major came and took his pistol away.
There's no excuse for not knowing your gun and handling it safely.

coltoriginal
May 29, 2009, 02:38 AM
Gryffydd
No, I'm not. That's why it makes sense that the one thing that can be ready 24/7 (my gun) should be.
think about that.. you're insisting that you need a gun that will be shooting before you are even mentally capable to evaluate what you are doing.

How does recognizing the fact that if you ever need a gun you may very well need it QUICKLY make me trigger happy?
you already admitted you would not mentally be ready that quickly (assess the threat), but you are still eager to shoot as fast as you can? thats trigger happy

I'm having a hard time picturing your fantasy scenario where you are saved by your c1 draw and fire time against a mugger who ambushes you. perhaps you could elaborate on that one for me.

Are you supposing you are at gunpoint and your c1 draw time is faster than his eyes (wild west style)? or is it more like he attacks you from behind but because you are in c1 your draw time is so fast you spin around and shoot him?

you propose an unexpected random mugging that will happen in a flash and with no time to cock the hammer, but solely because c1 is .1 seconds faster you will survive?

Me on the other hand, carrying a gun has nothing to do with mugger protection, which is why i mentioned my right to carry (you gave the impression the only viable reason is mugger defense). i'm sorry you are so worried about muggers.. do you live in a bad neighborhood?

this is nothing against c1 i believe it has its place just as all the others.

ScareyH22A
May 29, 2009, 03:07 AM
Why wouldn't you carry a 1911 in condition 1? I don't own a 1911 but I carry my USP cocked and locked. I think the 1911 is even safer considering that it even has a grip safety.

What are the chances that something will accidently disengage the safety, then press on the grip safety, then pull the trigger... all in that order? Some of you guys are just paranoid. That's so safe, you almost don't even need a holster. Sheesh.

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