Would you carry a customized gun for CCW [Archive]

Double Naught Spy

May 23, 2009, 07:25 AM

For me I guess I dont have any major objections to carrying it but feel that it would suck even more while your gun gets held in evidence if you ever have to use and it hopefully you get it back in the same shape.

Ideally, you are using a quality gun for self defense. Therefore, this argument would apply to any such firearm used for self defense.

However my main carry piece is a 1911 commander that i've definitely put a lot of work in to. But, it's the gun I shoot the best, and that's why I carry it.

Right, if you shoot the gun well or best, why would you carry something that maybe you don't shoot as well? What is more important, self defense of your life or worrying about the finish on the custom (or non-custom for that matter) gun you may use to protect your life after it is used for that purpose?

Being realistic, there is much more risk to damaging a gun during carrying than there is from what might happen should you ever be in a self defense shooting after the gun is confiscated. Of all the guns being carried or owned legally by citizens, just how many actually get confiscated because of self defense shootings? Yes, no doubt it happens dozens of times every day and no doubt that is at a rate that is just a fraction of the daily new guns sold to citizen consumers. Every day, the fraction of guns confiscated in self defense shooting declines relative to the number of people carrying guns and the number of guns being sold for self defense.

If you are worried about what might happen to your gun after a self defense shooting, then leave the gun in the safe where it belongs. That risk is so far down the list of potential bad things that could happen to the carried gun that it is silly to use it as a reason to justify not carrying it for self defense.

MarineOne

May 23, 2009, 07:29 AM

I would perfer not to carry a custom piece while carrying, either open or concealed.

Knowing my luck, I would end up in a SD/HD situation where I would have to pull and because I have a "customized" weapon somehow it would be twisted into something that it's not.

It's more about "CYA" when the legal stuff happens after you end up with no other choice but to put down a bad guy.

Kris

Zerodefect

May 23, 2009, 09:26 AM

LOL, wut?

Any gun that saves my life in a self defense shooting has paid for itself. Who cares if it gets impounded for a while. Get another.

I'm not going to carry a pointed stick around because it's cheaper and I won't mind it being held as evidence.

Would I pay $2000 for a gun that would eventually save my life and my famillys, but would then be rendered useless. Yes. Its a small price to pay. Guns cost what they cost, get the one that works best for yourself no matter what it costs to buy/customize.

Choose the best tool for yourself. Regardless of cost, whether it gets stolen by the judge after the fact or whatever.

A customized gun is, for some, the best tool for the job. Every decent 1911 I've carried was custom right out of the box. I carry Glocks, but the Glockworks Fulcrum trigger really makes them shoot alot better. Throw a properly tuned recoil spring and stainless rod and the Glock improves substatially in performance and reliability. (For me) Also keep in mind that alot of guns would be too expensive to sell if they had all the good stuff installed. Who would actully buy the custom Glock I carry for $900! Its not too hard to improve a gun that is limited to cheap parts like plastic triggers, recoil rods, stamped connectors that aren't chromed or polished, etc.

Every gun I count on is slightly customized to fit me and to improve its reliability. My 1911, Glock, Ar-15, and p-90 are each a little customized. Not carried away or blinged out. Just a little extra detail that was needed. Only my tiny ccw's, like my Keltec p32, are stock.

I'd just avoid "smile for flash", punisher logos, and "semper pocca para marshmello of death" markings. Leave that to the comic book heros. I wouldn't put goofy stuff on a carry piece. Probally going to look crazy in court if I had to explain defending my self with a pink "hello kitty" ar-15. Guns are allready evil in thier minds. But if its a good shoot, it really deosn't matter if you changed out a trigger spring, or whatnot.

The Lone Haranguer

May 23, 2009, 11:46 AM

Also the one gun that I have seen that was used in an SD shooting was scratched to hell because it slid partway across the highway after the shooting.
That should be the least of your worries.

mgkdrgn

May 23, 2009, 11:51 AM

I would say it depends on what the "custom" features are. If they are related to function (ie, night sights, grips, mag mods, etc), then have at it.

If you are talking about engraving "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" on the slide, that probably wouldn't be the best idea. :evil:

cyclopsshooter

May 23, 2009, 11:54 AM

i carry reliable P.O.S.s so that they will be the ones spending time in the evidence locker

The Lone Haranguer

May 23, 2009, 11:56 AM

Firearms trainer Clint Smith has been known to bang expensive custom 1911s against fence posts, drag them through dirt, etc. while demonstrating alternative slide racking, reloading and stoppage clearance drills.

punkndisorderly

May 23, 2009, 01:41 PM

I would venture to say that Clint Smith does not buy his own guns. If he does, I doubt he pays retail. I may be totally wrong, but I would bet that Smith and Wesson (who makes a Thunder Ranch revolver) and others give him firearms just for the perk of being able to claim Clint uses them.

That said, I wouldn't carry an expensive full house custom 1911. Mostly because I wouldn't be able to stand the dings, dents, holster wear, etc that comes with daily carry. My parents drilled in taking care of things too much for that. In addition, I don't want any extra liability from a "hair trigger" or other custom doodads.

I guess you could say my Glock CCW is customized since I swapped the sights. I wetwith the glock so that I would have a reliable handgun hat I wouldn't mind shooting the crap out of. Dings, scratches, etc don't bother me because I can afford to replace it. It's identical to what thousands of police trust to defend their (and our) lives, so it would be easily defendable in court. Same for ammo. As a side benefit, I shoot my Glock better for some reason than all but the most high end 1911's. I'd rather spend the difference on ammo anyway.

weisse52

May 23, 2009, 03:44 PM

I love my Colt 1911's. But I carried a SA Mil-Spec for a long time. I now have a Norinco that is being groomed to carry.

I would rather give the Norc than my Colts, but if I needed to carry my favorite Colt and it was taken in a SD shooting, so be it.

Any handgun can be replaced.

Deanimator

May 23, 2009, 04:42 PM

Almost all of my guns are "customized" to some degree or another, usually with trigger jobs, better grips, or better sights.

Ed Ames

May 23, 2009, 05:18 PM

I can't comment on Clint Smith or where/how he hets his guns.

I will say that some people have an "honest wear" aesthetic and don't mind patina/scatches/dings that really bug others.

Years ago I was in the market for a particular black-finished stainless steel wrist watch. I went into a jewelry store to look at them and the salesperson actively tried to steer me away from it... "I had one of those, the black wears through and it looks horrible." I didn't buy from him but I did buy one...and the black did wear through, but to me it was/is great looking. It shows honest wear from going on 15 years of banging around through all sorts of nastiness... including a few cases where it has dragged across rock or banged hard against concrete.

Guns, including custom guns, can wear the same way. The trick is that they've got to start as good guns (a pot metal POS just wears out) and they must come by the wear honestly (playing street hockey with your 1911 isn't the same as using it for 10 years is rough conditions).

To the original question: Of course... but my idea of customization is very utility driven. I'm more likely to pay for a lack of engraving for example.

TIMC

May 23, 2009, 06:40 PM

I customize every carry gun I have to one degree or another. I don't worry about if it gets held in evidence because the odds are I will never be involved in a shooting. If you are confident you will be then you need to change your environment and lifestyle.

This is what I am carrying currently.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/KimberProRaptorII.jpg?t=1243114803

Ruggles

May 23, 2009, 10:14 PM

"Any gun that saves my life in a self defense shooting has paid for itself. Who cares if it gets impounded for a while. Get another."

Exactly.

Ragnar Danneskjold

May 23, 2009, 10:33 PM

No. I won't carry garbage, but I won't carry a custom or expensive piece of history or commemorative memorabilia. I carry a stock Walther P99 with night sights. It's a nice gun and I trust it completely. But if it gets dinged up over years of carry, I don't really mind. And if I lose it to a police evidence locker, it's just a stock gun, just like the replacement I'll get. If you're into autoloaders, a standard Glock, just like most police use will be a great choice. Or a standard 1911, no frills if you prefer all steel. Something reliable and not too costly. Dependable but expendable.

Kentucky Windage

May 23, 2009, 10:37 PM

Short answer: no. Not unless you're independently wealthy and don't care how much it may cost to replace something.

9mmepiphany

May 24, 2009, 01:36 AM

i think the only gun i have ever carried that hadn't been customise...i prefer optimised...to some extent has been a H&K P-7.

i'm not wealthy, but think it would be alot more costly to come in 2nd in a gunfight

Hostile Amish

May 24, 2009, 01:59 AM

Mine is customized, but not with any of that "looks" junk from RockYourGlock or anything like that. I've got a Robar frame, Heinie sights, a N.Y trigger, and an extended floorplate. Function over form for carry.

With anything else, however... ;)

May 24, 2009, 02:14 AM

I have.
I would.

Commander size 1911, in 9x23, with gold bead front sight.
Ivory stocks are not just for BBQ, Divorce celebration, Dawg having a litter of pups...
Ivory affords a good grip when hands are bloody.

Model 29, with 5" barrel, gold bead front sight Ivory Stocks.

Model 24. (.44 spl), engraved, gold bead front sight...

Some others...
Other stocks as well...

Kind of Blued

May 24, 2009, 04:16 AM

Guns are tools. I customize mine to make them more effective tools.

If I feel like expressing myself, it won't involve a gun. If I want to customize a gun just for the sake of doing so, I won't carry it, because it has become something more than a functional tool.

This all goes out the window at a BBQ. :)

May 24, 2009, 02:51 PM

Guns are tools. I customize mine to make them more effective tools.

Hence the gold bead/ enhanced front sight, and stocks that fit me.
Ivory really does afford one a good grip when hands are bloody...

Loyalist Dave

May 24, 2009, 04:02 PM

Again it depends on the gun and the customization, no? I have a friend who carries compact 1911A1's, and his were customized for reliability, with the accuracy being fine from the factory. He had three done the same way. His theory...,that was what he trained with at the range, that was what he shot the best, and if he had to use it, it would be impounded. Not to worry, two more identical pieces were at home, so he'd go get another out of the vault, and be fine until they released the first. If something happened in the meantime..., he had a third at home.

Here in the People's Republic of Maryland, I would have reliability done first, and accuracy if it needed it. I would not as the man pointed out, have cosmetics done to it (or bought as such) similar to that in the photo posted by TIMC (he's in Texas; God bless him), nor would I have it engraved with something like what mgkdrgn mentioned Kill 'em all; Let God sort them out, or Yea thou I walk through the shadow of the valley of death, I shall fear no evil, as I am the baddest dude in the valley, etc.

I have found a Glock 22 works out of the box for me. I like a mag well funnel, a flat mainspring housing, trigger job, a beavertail, an ambi-safety, ramped barrel, and good fixed sights on a Commander style 1911A1.

Maybe I'm old and old fashioned, but do you really get that much more when ya go from an $800 1911A1 style handgun, to a $2500 gun when it comes to SD? I'm sincere in my question.., maybe I should take mine in for some upgrades??

LD

Guillermo

May 24, 2009, 04:06 PM

Would you carry a customized gun for CCW

Sure...why not?

SaxonPig

May 24, 2009, 04:30 PM

A gun carried around can be lost, stolen, or damaged. It could be confiscated by police for some reason. There are plenty of reasons NOT to choose a real valuable gun for daily carry. On the other hand, some would argue that you should carry the very best tool for the job and the risk of damage or loss be damned.

My primary carry piece is a 1990 S&W M659 that was sold by the Atlanta PD. I hate stainless, and I detest the squared trigger guard on this model, so I feel no love for it and if lost I would shed no tears over it. It's the one gun I own that is strictly a tool. It's tough and reliable, durable and low maintenance. It's my work gun.

Now, having said that, I have on occasion carried guns that would me great angst if they were to be lost. But I admit that I don't do it very often.

Sourdough

May 24, 2009, 04:51 PM

I had a 1911 WWI comemerative many years ago. I sold it because I never took it out of its case. Very pretty but not a working gun. I have owned several guns and guns I carry are the most important to me. If you have a nickle plated gun with target sights don't carry it. You probably will not even notice the sights in a confrontation and if I am rolling around in the mud or dust I don't want something that is glaring and sparkling saying "here I am over here, go ahead and shoot me."
Anything that is going to interfere with the job of defending yourself or others should be left at home. There is a reason all military weapons are dull and plain looking.

stalkingbear

May 24, 2009, 05:17 PM

All of my firearms-every last 1, has been customized or optimized for more accuracy, reliability, and to be more ergonomically friendly. For example all my handgun grips have to be oversize due to my extra large hands. All my handguns have had full action tunes & hand fitting done to them. They feature good, high visibility sights that have been regulated to hit exactly to point of aim. All these features help me shoot them better. Why would I deliberately handicap myself with something other than 1 of these guns that I can shoot good?

WoofersInc

May 24, 2009, 06:45 PM

My primary carry is a 1911. Usually one of my Kimber's. I have had people ask me why I don't carry one of the cheaper 1911's I have like my Taurus or RIA or my Charles Daly. I just like the way the Kimbers feel and handle.
My goal is to put enough money together to get a high end 1911 like a Wilson or a Les Baer. And I plan on carrying it when I do get it. I can always replace a gun but not my life. I want what works best for me when I need it to.

AZ Desertrat

May 24, 2009, 08:32 PM

I would....but it is not necessary. I feel just as good carrying my Taurus 85 snub as I do carrying my S&W 686 or my Glock 19......they all can and will save your life.

Brian Williams

May 24, 2009, 08:40 PM

Yep I carry anything from a 642 with a 940 cylinder to a highly modified S&W 65.

Jim Keenan

May 24, 2009, 08:54 PM

I have posted to this effect before and the responses have been everything from flames to arrogance, but I will try again.

If you have to use the gun in self defense, it is very likely that the police will order you to drop it. And you will, or you will be too dead to care about the gun.

You will drop the gun in dirt, mud, sand, on concrete or macadam, and then some cop will kick it out of the way.

If you don't care what happens to it, fine, but the fact that you have an expensive custom gun in the first place suggests that it is not just a tool, like a hammer or a shovel.

Then the gun will be thrown (not carefully deposited in cotton batting) in the evidence locker, maybe on the concrete floor, where it will gather dust and rust while your case (yes, you WILL be arrested if you kill someone, whether you think it was justified or not) works out. In the best case, you are freed, and get your property back in a few days. But even if you are not prosecuted or are found not guilty, it may be weeks or months before you can get the gun back, if a police officer doesn't steal it or the police do not arbitrarily destroy all "crime" guns as they do in some areas.

So, carry a $10,000 engraved and gold inlaid pistol with diamond studded grips? Sure, if you want, but do NOT be under any illusion that it will be undamaged if you have to use it.

(To the guys who say, "I will NEVER drop MY gun, no matter what a cop says, as I have influence and money and ....", I say, lots of luck; I hope you mention me in your will.)

Jim

Big Daddy Grim

May 24, 2009, 08:57 PM

customized yes Engraved no just personal preference.

PPGMD

May 24, 2009, 09:01 PM

Is a $2k+ gun getting ruined by the police better then death? Yes. Is it a wise investment? IMO no for half the price you can often get a gun that preforms the same.

I see it the same way as those $300 knives, yeah it's a cool knife but does it do anything that my $50 Kershaw can't?

Ed Ames

May 24, 2009, 09:03 PM

Jim, Maybe the reason you got flames and arrogance is that you are stating obvious, irrelevant, and uncertain facts as though they are some deep and novel insight.

You sound like someone who doesn't understand how a Lamborgini owner could ever take it out in traffic.

twigs

May 24, 2009, 09:15 PM

My question is, WHY did you customize it? To make it handsome, pretty, or otherwise good-looking, or to improve its function, i.e., defending your life? If the last, be happy that your investment paid off in a justified self-defense situation. If you live in a locality that has evidence officers who don’t appreciate a good weapon, at least you will have the knowledge that your investment paid off. If they do, drop off the socks and supplies needed to preserve it, and keep contact. If they know that you are interested, it will not be “lost” and may be better preserved against the possibility of a civil suit.

SaxonPig

May 24, 2009, 09:19 PM

JK- Not necessarily how it goes although the scenario you describe is possible. Twice I have had responding police officers take my gun following an altercation (not with THEM, of course). The first time I had already set the gun down before the officer arrived and I pointed to it when he asked about it. The second time the cop reached out and I handed him the gun (same gun both times, now that I think about it).

I suggest that unless absolutely necessary you NOT be holding a gun in your hand when cops arrive on the scene. It's always a potentially dangerous situation when cops get to the scene of a shooting and see you standing there with a gun and they might not know yet who is the good guy.

Jim Keenan

May 24, 2009, 09:21 PM

It must be nice to be rich and influential! I guess people with a lot of money and no common sense do carry expensive guns and drive Lamborghini's in NYC traffic. And refuse to even consider that something bad could happen to THEM!

Jim

Jim Keenan

May 24, 2009, 09:26 PM

Hi, Saxonpig,

You might have enough influence (maybe your father is the governor) that the police will bow and scrape and make sure you are not inconvenienced. But most of the time, if you are at the scene of a shooting and you have a gun in your hand, they will NOT politely ask you to hand it over. They want that gun out of your hands, and now!

Jim

scf4003

May 24, 2009, 09:29 PM

I carry my Colt Python or SIG P220 Carry Elite on a daily basis, neither are customized but both are pretty expensive and would be hard for me to replace. I love these 2 guns and I shoot them very well with complete confidence.
In Ohio, a clean shooting requires the Police to return your weapon in a timely fashion or pay legal fees for it's return if taken to court, so I don't worry about it much.

lawboy

May 24, 2009, 09:32 PM

Dan Crocker

May 24, 2009, 09:36 PM

That's why I like Glocks. I could lose (hypothetically, I don't leave it around or anything) mine for whatever reason and not care. I'd just buy another one!

Zerodefect

May 24, 2009, 09:48 PM

:neener:Oh yeah, heaven forbid my fancy CCW should get scratched while saving my life. Oh the humanity! If my 1911 got scratched i'd have to shoot myself.:neener:

I carry guns that work. When they could work better, I customize them to make it so. If my Glock works better with $300 worth of mods, so be it. If my 1911 has to be improved for a faster sight picture, reliability, and corrosion resistance from daily carry in the snow belt and it ends up being $2000. So fn what.

Every mod i've made has made my pistols faster and more reliable. I'm confident that they are much more able to help defend myself than an off the shelf weapon.

I'd rather be alive but missing an expensive weapon, than buried with my Lorcin.

Ed Ames

May 24, 2009, 09:50 PM

Jim, It isn't a refusal to consider that something bad could happen. It's an acceptance of risks you are unwilling to accept. Your mistake is in thinking that your own thresholds are, or should be, meaningful for anyone else. As for gun in your hand... why on earth would you stand around with a gun in your hand after it was no longer needed? You have a holster for a reason...learn to use it.

May 24, 2009, 10:12 PM

Jim Keenan knows of what he speaks.

I am on record suggesting folks get a good used police trade in, or find a good used gun, that is pristine internally, and has surface wear for carry.
Many of the folks I assisted, were concerned about budgets anyway. Single ladies, single moms, elderly, physically limited. These include sexual assault victims, battered and abused women and kids.

That good used Model 10 bought right, that was a Police trade in, was the ticket, back when we could get these aplenty and for a good price.

Tools for tasks and environment. I and mine had to dress for the tasks and in settings.
It was acceptable risk nice guns, would suffer consequences.

Yes, I have dropped a nice custom gun onto a asphalt parking lot, when officers said "drop it!"
Officers felt bad, they did not know it was me, still, the priority was to get guns dropped and get the matter sorted out now.

I have kicked a Colt Detective Special, with the nice deep bluing , under a vehicle, to another.
Not my gun, one our peoples, and it was kicked to me, to kick to another.

Model 29, had to go back to S&W. This was the gun I gave my lady partner, and matters went serious and I messed up that gun big time.
I was messed up, and took some time to recover...
Vehicle was totaled.

Speaking of which, I was one serious car accident, and the first responders and cops did the best they could to keep my guns "in good shape". They really did, still blood does things to guns.

Another accident, and the folks felt really bad for not even thinking of taking care of my guns. It just never crossed their minds.
They felt bad about it, still their priority was taking care of me.

I had a brand spanking new Model 37, the game plan was to keep this one nice.
Oh well, you do what you gotta do and that one got to looking worse that the one I carried, and had to go back to S&W before I ever got a chance to actually shoot it.
I had not even gotten to take the stocks off, clean it of factory lube, and relube it.

I and others accept all this.

Now my experiences include, folks with guns, they are afraid to shoot. Seriously.
Assisting on private ranges, and folks, and always guys, had some new gun, or "the" gun, or "kewl gun" or "gun of the month" and they would not shoot it.
Nor would they use the belt and holster.

Instead, they wore the damn things out, cleaning a clean gun, with the newest wonder solvent and lube of the week.
I am dead serious.

Show off the guns, talk about them, show pictures...
And shoot one of our guns.

The girls with the "antiquated" and "not good looking" guns, would outshoot them, always.
And...seen the Model 10s, Ruger Six Series, Colt DS...outshoot the "custom kewl toy of the month" and what Teem Seel uses too.

My Smith & Wesson Model 29 had a 5" barrel for a reason. I was not done to customize, instead fix what had happened to the muzzle and barrel.
My 044 was not custom, it too had been repaired and had character. One Gov't Model of 1911, always got attention, it only had about a inch or so of rifleling in the barrel left, from being shot a lot, and there was some bluing left, mostly under the stocks.
Another Gov't Model was in the white, during some lessons and set ups.

I was having it fixed and figured with what all we were doing, I was going to mess up a gun, so it made sense to run a gun in the white.
I was correct.
Gunsmith...
Gunsmith's just get to a point they do not shake heads and ask "what happened this time".

Well...
No need in rebluing the thing, only to lose the bluing and start all over again.

"At least the gold sight bit holds up, with you" he said.

Note: Just because you have a lanyard, does not mean the gun will not get beat all to hell.
You are just less likely to lose the gun is all.

Escalators will do a number on a firearm , trust me.
No, they do not give style points when you bust your butt doing lessons and set ups with escalators either.

Kel-Tec P-11.

I was asked to test and evaluate this gun for various folks, with varying criteria.

Some folks put back up, nice , older, guns, and went with the P-11. Such as those guns kept in farm/ranch vehicles, or in various places in a business setting.

I have seen a few P-11s that have been dropped, kicked, and not taken care of in a "storage setting" or "evidence room".

Umm yeah, in testing, the gold bead front sight does hold up as well...

Ed Ames

May 24, 2009, 11:05 PM

Steve, with all due respect the question isn't whether guns will be kicked around or bloodied. The question is whether that matters to the choice of customization. For some it would. For others? It is so far down into the noise level it wouldn't even register.

There are people who will not take a new SP101 to the range because it might get powder residue on it. To them the gun is a talisman, not a tool, and frankly none of what Jim said matters because they will be dead or alive through no action of their own and the gun will be in its holster or maybe the factory cardboard box if the hammer drops. Those are the people with unopened toys from their childhood, and I'm not going to judge them but I will say I can't understand their perspective.

There are other people who flat don't see the relevance of the price tag when it comes to doing something. They may or may not spend $10,000 outfitting a handgun simply because that might be a huge amount of money to them, but if they had a $10,000 handgun it would be just as much a tool for them as a keltec. Their aesthetic sense may sway them to or away from a particular style of custom gun but at the end of the day function rules all considerations. I have had very expensive tools and I've used those tools, sometimes to destruction. That is what they were for. I didn't abuse them, but I never confused tool and talisman...never made the mistake of thinking that the survival of the tool was somehow more important than my own survival or success.

Jim seems to have a low risk acceptance threshold. That's fine. I have no problem with people setting their own limits. He is also projecting that threshold to others and acting as though someone else violating his thresholds is somehow wrong. That's just silly.

I don't personally own any engraved firearms because I think they are hideously ugly... but I do have some that I have customized and I consider expensive and frankly if I need to use one the fact that it might get banged up is not even remotely relevant. It's no different than a car or anything else... I have driven cars that rolled off the dealer floor with a price tag approaching the median home value of the USA at the time... and the fact that it might get into an accident was simply not relevant to the decision of where or how I drove it. I wouldn't have been in that car if I couldn't afford it at the time and I treated it no different than I'd treat a toyota or VW. There are a lot of people like that and it's silly to think they would treat a gun differently than they'd treat a car. At the end of the day it's just a thing.

orionengnr

May 25, 2009, 12:26 AM

Nah, I'm not worried about it. Anything I own, I carry. I'm prepared to use (and to lose) whatever I carry.

Same applies to my other possessions. I've owned and driven nice cars, nice motorcycles, nice guns. I've had nice cars damaged, and nice bikes wrecked and stolen. I've had beautiful women leave me (not recently :()

Stuff happens, and I'm still here to laugh, cry and tell the stories.

Bottom line: they are all possessions. Owning a nice gun or a nice car makes life just a little bit more fun. Losing one of them is not the end of the world. They can be replaced.

To paraphrase one member's sig line:
Having a Les Baer 1911 and never carrying or shooting it is like having a beautiful wife and never making love to her.
The difference is, the Les Baer can save your life, and you can replace it for $2000 or so...

Edited to add: I don't own anything with engraving, because as Ed Ames said above, I find engraving hideously ugly...moustache on Mona Lisa ugly. However, I carry Kimbers with upgrades--Ed Brown/Cylinder & Slide ignition parts, TruGlo TFO sights, Crimson Trace lasers, etc. I have several N-frames with Hamilton Bowen upgrades. These are all working guns. Maybe not "custom" to your definition, but worth (in replacement value anyway) far more than your standard sidearm. I don't hesitate to grab and holster one of them, because I trust each implicitly, and my life is the most valuable possession I own.

David E

May 25, 2009, 12:49 AM

If you have to use the gun in self defense, it is very likely that the police will order you to drop it. And you will, or you will be too dead to care about the gun.

What, the cops are AT THE SCENE within a second or two of you shooting the badguy? Um, doubtful. Proper tactics has you reholstering after you're sure the situation is over for the expressed purpose of NOT being shot by the cops. If you forgot to do this and you have cops telling you to drop it, tell them you're afraid it'll go off if you drop it, so set it down gently and step away from it. Tell them that you are the good guy. They MAY kick it, but we never did once we knew they couldn't reach the gun.

the fact that you have an expensive custom gun in the first place suggests that it is not just a tool, like a hammer or a shovel.

Maybe it's a matter of defining "customized." Most of my guns have work done to them to improve my ability to HIT with it. Isn't that a good thing to be able to say in court?

it may be weeks or months before you can get the gun back, if a police officer doesn't steal it or the police do not arbitrarily destroy all "crime" guns as they do in some areas.

They don't destroy evidence guns.

It seems like you have an unusually high disregard for the cops in your area.....any reason ?

Ragnar Danneskjold

May 25, 2009, 04:46 AM

Jim Keenan is wrong. If you have to use a gun for self defense is it EXTREMELY unlikely that law enforcement officers will be present when you do. Typically, you will have minutes to either: set the gun aside, reholster the gun, or vacate the area. You are not likely to be held at gunpoint by police after a self defense shooting simply because they are not likely to be present when it occurs. It sounds good, but emperical evidence shows otherwise.

No, Jim Keenan is right. Because nothing you said about when the police arrive at the scene has anything to do with what happens to you gun WHEN, not if, the criminal justice system takes it into custody. If you fire your carry gun, plan on it being gone for a long time, or it being mistreated. Probably both. And that has nothing to do with whether the police are on the scene of the shooting right away.

SaxonPig

May 25, 2009, 10:16 AM

Jim- I understand that it can happen (cops demanding that you throw your gun down) and like I said, having a gun in your hand when cops arrive can be dangerous so I think it better to set the gun down before they get there, but what you describe wasn't my actual experience. I think you are giving cops short thrift in assuming they will not behave responsibly.

Mas Ayoob has addressed this issue and his advice is to immediately comply with an officer's order to "drop the gun" by placing it on the ground and stepping back. I think if the cop is so nervous and untrained as to shoot you for doing that then he would likely shoot you no matter what you do.

Personally, I think throwing or dropping a loaded gun is dangerous and if only for the sake of safety I would set the gun down rather than throw it. If that's not good enough, then I guess the cop will have to shoot me.

TexasRifleman

May 25, 2009, 10:22 AM

I'm having trouble figuring out why anyone cares if the gun gets scratched.

If you just used a gun to save your life, or the life of another, having a scratch on the gun would not make it to the list of things to worry about.

If a very expensive custom gun makes you want to carry it more often, or you shoot better with it, who cares if it gets damaged in a lawful defense situation.

That's what they are for.

That's like not wanting to drive a car with airbags because the airbags might get dirty.

thorazine

May 27, 2009, 07:08 PM

Reminds me of the glock with "F THE POLICE" engraved on the slide.

Good idea -- no?

Zerodefect

May 27, 2009, 08:55 PM

I'm going to engrave "Hang King George!" on my next 1911. Then have Obamalamadingdongs face roll stamped next to it!

Just kidding, that would certainly get me jail time knowing todays cracker box judges.

Philip Marlowe

May 27, 2009, 09:08 PM

I've got a compensated barrel in my PM9, and a solid guide rod. I guess that's sort of customized...

Butter

May 28, 2009, 01:07 PM

Interesting conversation. My brother was once allowed to handle a couple of museum quality swords in a private collection. One was used in the Crusades another was a few hundered years later. So when I look at swords, American Indian war axes, any ancient weapon in a museum, I am struck by a couple of things: 1) that they are utilitarian in their requirements for usage; and 2) that often as not, and probably more so, they have been embellished some how. There are personalized engravings, meticuluous bead work, all sorts of aesthetic accoutrements that get wrapped around these arms. Some seem really functional as well as beautiful.

All I am saying is that if you personalize something, perhaps their is a case for making the weapon more than utilitarian, but also very personally usable. If you feel better about it, use it more often and can handle it well because of the customization, well then, hey go for it. :)

Ranger Rog

May 28, 2009, 01:23 PM

Yes,
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=SFSkits

33-805

May 28, 2009, 01:26 PM

I carry stock glocks with the exception of tritium sights. But I do this because they work for me that way. I have carried customized Wilsons and Cylinder and Slide guns over the years. At that time, they were best for me. At no time did I ever worry about them getting scratched, as they were work guns. I have had to have a couple work guns refinished due to them getting banged around a bit. S&W Model 28 and an 870, IIRC. I went right back to carrying them both, way back when...

MDPuckett84

May 28, 2009, 03:44 PM

I would definitely carry functionally customized gun, as obviously this just makes it better at what its intended for no matter the cost. I like the look of a gun that's worn from carrying anyways.

I personally have never purchased a gun solely for cosmetic reasons and don't have much intention to. If I did, it'd be because I already have a gun for range & carry so the point is moot.

However, I do avoid carrying my guns which have sentimental value unless there is no other option.

krs

May 28, 2009, 07:27 PM

Personally, I think throwing or dropping a loaded gun is dangerous and if only for the sake of safety I would set the gun down rather than throw it. If that's not good enough, then I guess the cop will have to shoot me.

Yeah, I guess they'll just have to shoot you, and I think that it's exactly what happened to a kid in seattle recently.

This kid, age 22, was an enthusiastic reenactor of German Army WW2 history, and he dressed in full wermacht uniform with rifle for many gatherings and occasions. I talked with him at length one day at the Portland gun show where he'd brought his MG42, a nice version of the Kubelwagen, and was in his equipment so completely that he looked like a scene from "The Great Escape". He was so earnest in his interest that I accepted him as a real enthusiast, if a little strange. But he was a bright young history major in college and his focus was on the German Army. Not the Nazis he carefully made clear, the wermacht.

Anyway, there was some occasion not long ago in which this kid and some of his friends were partying and letting off firecrackers. It was a holiday of some kind. The kid was in uniform and had his Mauser. Someone called the cops and reported shooting in the area of the apartment where one of these kids lived and where they'd all gone inside.. When the cops arrived this kid came out of the apartment, coincidentally - he was just going home apparently. The cops saw him and ordered him to drop the rifle. He turned toward them in the dark to see what was going on, saw cops at the top of the stairs, and then began to set the rifle down carefully as it was a cherished piece to him. As he set it down butt first just like you'd do the muzzle naturally went upward and a cop thought he was aiming at them, or so their story goes. Two of the cops opened fire with M16 rifles and killed the kid before the butt of his rifle reached the ground.

That kid would probably be alive today if he'd cared less for his perfect Mauser and just let it fall to the ground when told to drop it.

Ed Ames

May 28, 2009, 07:51 PM

I don't think that story has much relevance to most of us here.

krs

May 28, 2009, 08:00 PM

I'd agree Ed, except that there was commentary in the thread to the effect that rather than drop a weapon if directed to do so, setting it carefully down would have to suffice for the needs of any law enforcement person who arrives to the scene.

For my part, I'll drop an original Walker Colt like that hot potato if told to do so by a cop who doesn't know what's going on when he arrives to a shooting call. Jim Keenan is right that caring for a weapon will be the smallest consideration in such a case, certainly smaller than seeing to the future safety of all concerned which is what the police are trained to do.

hunter25

May 28, 2009, 08:13 PM

My carry gun has been customized but only for functional purpose. I will spend as much as I can afford for reliability and function.
I would never carry a gun with some of the engravings on them such as the glocks with "smile wait for flash" on the end. I think the legal problems would be much worse If you ever had to use it.

farscott

May 28, 2009, 08:31 PM

All of my carry guns have been extensively customized to help me shoot better, and I accept the fact that if I ever use one "for real", it is likely gone and will need to be replaced. Sounds like a good excuse to buy a new gun, and if I can afford a new gun that means it all ended well.

I treat my carry guns like tools; I use them but do not abuse them. I am not wealthy, but I rather spend money on guns that on expensive vehicles and other "big boy" toys. Just like I would not buy a new vehicle and leave it in the garage, I use my custom guns. My usual carry gun has cost me around $3500, and I have others that range in cost from $900 to $5400. The only one I do not carry is the $5400 one; it is my wife's gun and she carries it.

Ed Ames

May 28, 2009, 08:35 PM

The kid wasn't shot because he didn't immediately drop the rifle. He was shot because he was a social deviant and cops don't handle that at all well. Look at the number of mentally retarded people, people having seizures or other medical problems, etc that result in police officers shooting, beating, or otherwise harming folks who were no threat to them.

Don't count on dropping your plastic pistol to save you from a cop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHjhtYZpX0

twigs

May 28, 2009, 08:38 PM

Another thought.

If seized by law enforcement, a gun doesn't stay in the local evidence locker. It gets sent to the lab for ballistic, NIBIN, and possibly DNA and fingerprint testing.

Contrary to CSI, in most states the process takes months, not hours.

I believe that an owner should accept the probability that damage will occur.

krs

May 28, 2009, 08:52 PM

That's true too, Ed. They saw a nazi and killed him. I never saw anything more, like whether that kid's parents tried to get some justice but it really sounded wrong when I read about it the next day. I had met that guy and the news report showed a picture of him in his German uniform so I knew it was the same kid I'd met. Blonde, pinkcheeked young Arian. (LOL!) And although he was somewhat strange for dressing up like he did I'm sure that he really treasured every piece of his collected regalia. The machine gun was a semi-auto replica using original parts and he had the mount and belted ammo - the works. It really was a nice job of reenacting or restoring that gear no matter what you or I or those cops thought about it or him for doing it.

There was another one in some small town near Portland, OR. I get Portland news on the local programming because there's mountains between me and Seattle so I got to watch the hullabaloo over this evidently retarded but harmless according to everyone who knew him guy who was shot. He'd gone to the wrong door thinking it was his home and the people inside called in a prowler. This guy was unarmed but was shot dead mostly because he didn't understand what was going on.
It sounded like a shame, and there were people demanding investigations. The cop involved turned out to be involved in another case in which he'd sexually abused or raped a girl in town. He was fired but they never brought him to account for the retarded guy's death so far as I know. The news stopped covering the story as soon as there was no more sensational stuff to tell, as is typical of news everywhere.

The one in your link is really incredible. We used to live in Alameda and my wife worked in Oakland. The Bart police were never thought of as being as bad as the Oakland PD, but that tape is clear and there's no doubt at all that it was unnecessary to shoot the guy. Whatever he might have done it was obvious that he was completely under their control and that cop just murdered him. Good thing that someone had the presence of mind to get it on tape.

I carry a modified Colt New Agent with Crimson Trace, ambisafeties for my lefthanded self, and EGW sear, disconnector, extractor,and slidestop. I don't really like the silly thing but it is custom and it is dropdead reliable. I'd carry my Sig 220 if it wasn't so chunky because it's even more safe while being just as reliable.

KyJim

May 28, 2009, 10:05 PM

I think people are talking about two different things here. One is a highly customized engraved show piece and the other is tool costomized primarily for function (an maybe a little for looks).

Frankly, I can't imagine why someone would want to get a customized show piece and carry it but to each his own. I can understand why people have tools that are on the expensive side. I don't have any of the customized show pieces but I do have a few guns I would not carry; e.g., a couple of mint Pythons I shoot sometimes but don't carry.

On the other hand, I have some tools that I do carry that are on the expensive side -- a Baer and an Ed Brown. If I have to use one of these guns and the police confiscate and abuse it, so be it. It's served its purpose. If you can't accept this, then you shouldn't carry an expensive gun. BTW, I'm no gun snob. I also carry less expensive guns.

Don't count on dropping your plastic pistol to save you from a cop.
I've seen this before and there is speculation the officer thought he was pulling his taser. I don't know if his response was ever made public. A tragedy, however, no matter how it happened.