[Khornet]

Met a fella yesterday while treating his wife. Middle-eastern name--I asked where he was from. Iran, he said. How long had he been here? 30 years. Oh, says I, you must have been there durng the last days of the Shah. Yes, he says. I asked a few other questions; he seemed excited that someone in NH knew anything at all about the Middle East. Which I think is bullhockey, by the way-- the way it's assumed that Americans know nothing about anywhere else--tells me that folks from everywhere else don't know squat about America.

Anyhow, I naturally asked for his take on the current WOT/Middle East situation. He said, "You will never change those people. The only thing to do is let those guys (the Mullahs, the Islamists) do what they want. Let them have their way." He could see no point at all in trying to make some kind of democracy of Iraq. We should forget it all and just get out of the region completely, forget the oil and get our energy elsewhere.

Interesting. He was quite Westernized, white-collar job, American wife, excellent English, and content here with no intention of returning.

[Pilgrim]

Yes, he says. I asked a few other questions; he seemed excited that someone in NH knew anything at all about the Middle East.

After the Shah was deposed and during the time the Americans of the United States embassy were being held hostage in Tehran, I was having dinner in a Los Angeles area restaurant with my aunt. I noticed our waitress had an interesting name. I asked her where she was from. She answered, "Persia."

I smiled and said, "Nice place."

She looked nervous and asked, "You know Persia?"

I told her I had spent several months on an aircraft carrier in the North Arabian Sea. Now she really looked nervous.

I told her to relax, I wasn't going to tell anyone in the restaurant where she was really from. That made her happy.

Pilgrim

[Labinnac]

A good friend and mentor of mine who is a PhD is the exact same way. He always refers to where he's from as "Persia" when he meets new people.

[mtnbkr]

My advisor in college also referred to himself as Persian. More than once, he complained/commented how the idiots in charge there ruined his homeland.

Chris

[geekWithA.45]

This reminds me quite a bit of my friend, Mohammed. (http://geekwitha45.blogspot.com/2003_03_23_geekwitha45_archive.html#91411630), who should be up your neck of the woods, Khornet.

[Moparmike]

Good story geek.

[STW]

Back when Iranian students in the US were demonstrating against the Shah (that is before they found out how bad it could be) I was taking a night class held in the federal building in West LA. As it happened, the night of a big demonstation coincided with a big test. Getting to the building should have gotten us extra credit. One of my fellow students happened to be Iranian. His opinion of his country men interfering with his test would not get past the moderators.:D

[bountyhunter]

He could see no point at all in trying to make some kind of democracy of Iraq. We should forget it all and just get out of the region completely, forget the oil and get our energy elsewhere.

Yes, but forgive him for disputing the wisdom of our current foreign policy. he is operating under the handicap of actually understanding the realities of the situation. You can't expect him to see the long term advantages of a puppet regime and US imposed rule.

[Standing Wolf]

He always refers to where he's from as "Persia" when he meets new people.

I've known several like that. Once upon a time, Iran was Persia, and it was quite the nation. That was hundreds of years ago.

[kentucky bucky]

It's easy for him to say let them have the country (abandon the people who want freedom) when he is living in America. Now, why did he leave IRAN?:fire: Short memory evidently!!!

[SteelyDan]

I've only known one Iranian well. Back in college there was an Iranian guy who lived across the hall. He was very rich, very arrogant, and very insufferable. Because of his attitude, we gave him a lot of crap, but he kept coming back for more, which was sort of endearing.

He used to walk into our room all the time without knocking, which obligated us to go kick his butt (more or less figuratively). The only time I ever got called down to the Dean's office was to explain why I had (literally) kicked his door in ("well, sir, he didn't knock" did not go over too well), and to pay for the cost of repairing the door.

Ah, college memories.

By the way, his father had been someone of importance in the Shah's regime. After the Shah fell, his dad disappeared, and the rest of his family came to America.

[Zak Smith]

TFL thread: One man packs, another attacks. (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=26068)


Shariar Ghalam, a gun-toting activist, fought a war and smuggled his family from tyranny to freedom. He's seen people hang for their beliefs. He thought he'd seen it all, until last week.


It's interesting to talk to the man. Whole new perspective on freedom.

-z

[Bill Hook]

I read about Mr. Ghalam's ordeal and the resolution of his suit in a TV debate w/ Howell.

Anyone know if he got his CCW back and if he's still active in RKBA? I'm suspecting 9/11 may have shut things down for him.

[Zak Smith]

Bill,

I found the following dated 2003:
http://www.erissociety.org/2003spkr.htm


Sharia Ghalam ? Topic TBD A combat vet of the Iran/Iraq war (as both an F-5 fighter pilot and as an infantryman), Shariar finally escaped from Khomeini's Iran via Turkey and France in order to fulfill his lifelong dream of immigrating to the USA. Today he is a proudly naturalized American, and is well-known in the Denver/Boulder area as a gun-rights activists. Shariar Ghalam (B.S.,Aeronautical Eng., CU Boulder) is one of four members of a team competing for a $10M "X Prize" for private rocketry.


-z

[BigG]

"To ride, shoot straight, and always tell the truth" was the ancient law of the Medes and Persians, imparted to their sons. Sound familiar?

[HBK]

I knew a guy from the middle east when I was in college. He played soccer for the "international club" and I played for my fraternity. He had a ????ty attitude towrards women and was verbally and physically abusive towards any woman that was foolish enough to consort with him. Once after a hard tackle, he told me, "If you do that again I will break your two legs." I was going to let it go, but later in the match he tried to do just that so I elbowed him in the face. He represented everything negative about Islam. He was here, in the US, getting a first rate education and spending all the time berating the US and it's citizens. He was supposed to be some sort of prince. He viewed women as property. In the south, we don't like it much when you abuse our women and disparage our religion and country. The guy got his butt kicked a lot, usually at parties, and he almost always deserved it. I'm sure there are some worthy people from the middle east, but this guy wasn't one of them and I personally haven't met one.

[Keith]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2089329/


Conversation With Khomeini
The ayatollah's grandson calls for a U.S. invasion of Iran.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, October 6, 2003, at 11:03 AM PT


I have no respect for the hereditary principle and neither does Shiite Islam, which considers earthly kingship to be profane. But no one can be completely uninterested in heredity per se, and my first thought, on meeting Hossein Khomeini, was that he has his grandfather's eyebrows. Still, our conversation quickly banished the notion that this 45-year-old cleric is the least bit interested in running for his grandpa's job.

He is a relatively junior cleric—a sayeed—but he wears the turban and robe with some aplomb and was until recently a resident of Qum, the holy city of the Iranian Shiites and once the Vatican, so to speak, of the Khomeini theocracy. As soon as it became feasible, however, he moved to Baghdad (where he would have been executed on sight until a few months ago) and is now hoping to establish himself in Karbala, one of the two holy Shiite cities in southern Iraq. He refers as a matter of course to the work of the coalition forces in Iraq as a "liberation." He would prefer, he says, to live in Tehran, but he cannot consider doing so until there has been "liberation" in Iran also.

He speaks perfect Arabic, acquired during the years when the ayatollah and his family were exiled by the shah to live in Karbala, and he knows Iraq reasonably well already. He is of course a figure of fascination to the Iraqi Shiite population, but he doesn't seek any explicit role in their affairs. Nonetheless, his view of developments among them is worth hearing. "Talk of an Islamic state in Iraq is not very serious or very deeply rooted among the people. It is necessary for religion and politics to be separated." When I asked him about Moqtada al-Sadr, the Shiite anti-American extremist in Iraq who is the son of the late Ayatollah Sadr, murdered by Saddam Hussein, he was dismissive. "He is not considered an interpreter of our religion but only an imitator known only because of his father." Again, there is implicit disapproval of those who trade on the family name.

Even so, I could not resist asking his opinion of the famous fatwa against Salman Rushdie. I cannot say that I understood all of his reply, which was very long and detailed and contained some Quranic references and citations that were (to me at any rate) rather abstruse. But the meaning was very plain. A sentence of death for apostasy cannot really be pronounced, or acted upon, unless there is "an infallible imam," and there is no such thing. The Shiite faithful believe in a "hidden imam" who may one day be restored to them, but they have learned to be wary of impostors or false prophets. In any event, added Khomeini, there was an important distinction between what the Quran said and what an ayatollah as head of state might say. "We cannot nowadays have executions in this form." Indeed, he added, it was the policy of executions that had turned the Islamic revolution in Iran sour in the first place. "Now we have had 25 years of a failed Islamic revolution in Iran, and the people do not want an Islamic regime anymore."

It's not strictly necessary to speak to Hossein Khomeini to appreciate the latter point: Every visitor to Iran confirms it, and a large majority of the Iranians themselves have voted for anti-theocratic candidates. The entrenched and reactionary regime can negate these results up to a certain point; the only question is how long can they do so? Young Khomeini is convinced that the coming upheaval will depend principally on those who once supported his grandfather and have now become disillusioned. I asked him what he would like to see happen, and his reply this time was very terse and did not require any Quranic scriptural authority or explication. The best outcome, he thought, would be a very swift and immediate American invasion of Iran.

It hurt me somewhat to have to tell him that there was scant chance of deliverance coming by this means. He took the news pretty stoically (and I hardly think I was telling him anything he did not know). But I was thinking, wow, this is what happens if you live long enough. You'll hear the ayatollah's grandson saying, not even "Send in the Marines" but "Bring in the 82nd Airborne." I think it was the matter-of-factness of the reply that impressed me the most: He spoke as if talking of the obvious and the uncontroversial.

That reminded me to ask him what he thought of the mullahs' nuclear program. He calmly said that there was no physical force that was stronger than his faith, and thus there was no need for any country to arm itself in this way. No serious or principled Shiite had any fear of his belief being destroyed by any kind of violence. It was not a matter for the state, and the state and religion (he reiterated) ought to be separated—for both their sakes.

Hossein Khomeini operates within an entirely Quranic frame of reference, but what he has to say is obviously of great interest to those who take the secular "regime change" position. The arguments about genocide, terrorism, and WMD—in all of which I believe the Bush administration had (and has) considerable right on its side—are all essentially secondary to the overarching question: Does there exist in the Middle East a real constituency for pluralism and against theocracy and dictatorship. And can the exercise of outside force hope to release and encourage these elements? This is a historic question in the strict sense, because we will not know the true answer for some considerable time. But that does not deprive us of some responsibility to make judgments in the meanwhile, and we have good reason to know that the region can't be left to fester as it is. On my own recent visit to Baghdad, Karbala, and Najaf, as well as to Basra and then Kurdistan, I would say that I saw persuasive evidence of the unleashing of real politics in Iraq and of the highly positive effect of same. Conversation with Khomeini suggests to me that in at least one other highly important neighboring country, the United States has also managed to get on the right side of history, as we used to say.

[alpineRKBA]

I read about this years ago when it was in the Daily Camera and the latest news about Iran reminded me of the guy.

Glaham's story sounded a bit too pat, too good to be true. Especially his alleged air force career.

At age 18, Ghalam flew F-5 fighter jets solo into combat, dropping a half dozen 1,500-pound bombs a day on Iraqi targets and shooting down enemy fighters.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=26068

At 18? F-5s?

I know a few fighter pilots (mostly F-16 guys) and asked them if any flew jets at the early age of 18, much less in combat. None had, and all found it extremely far-fetched given the considerable officer's and pilot training required. 21 y/o was the common consensus as the very minimum age. Yeah, Iran was desperate for pilots in the early 1980's, training just can't be rushed like that.

On a hunch I searched for websites on Iranian air war fighter pilots. Found five pretty thorough links:

http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/aces1/iran-iraq.html
http://jpgleize.club.fr/aces/irairn.htm
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_210.shtml
http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/iiwirn.htm
http://www.irandefence.net/archive/index.php/t-920.html

None of them list any "Shariar Ghalam" for even a single air-to-air kill even though he claimed to reporter Laugesen to have shot down more than one.
Given the many listings of pilots with single kills, how is a guy with multiple kills would be missed in all those sites?

Does anybody know what fighter squadron he was allegedly stationed at? Dates and circumstances of these kills? Witness him fly? See a wartime photobook or flight suit? Anything beyond what he himself claims to have done 25 years ago on the other side of the world?

I like a good RKBA story as much as anybody, but only if it's all true, including self proclaimed background and experience. Otherwise it taints the entire story and plays right into the hands of our gun-hating enemies.

[Zak Smith]

Please note the date/time-stamps of the original thread. This some serious thread resurrection.

Why don't you contact him and ask him yourself? Last I knew, he was still in Colorado. In my opinion, that would be the honorable thing to do, not malign him on forums. I have friends who know him; I have met him only briefly.

[Deanimator]

A guy I went to Infantry Officer Basic Course with in '80, went to Nichols State in La. He said there was a Lebanese guy there who was getting a hard time because people thought he was Iranian. He eventually had a T-shirt made which said, "I'm Lebanese, NOT Iranian!" This apparently irked the radical Iranian students. He apparently had a lot of fun with it.

[St. Gregori]

Old thread, but since nobody else made the points.

The reason Iranians make such a point about being Persian is simple, they aren't Arabs. They don't speak the same language, have the same history, belong to the same sects of Islam, or live in the same countries. An appropriate analogy would be calling everybody with a pinkish skintone an Englishman. I can fairly guarantee that the folks in France and Germany would be annoyed when the national language isn't even English.

The reason the guy was surprised that you knew anything about the middle east is simple, most Americans haven't the first clue. The fact that there was any discussion about why Iranians insist on being called Persian proves my point quite eloquently. Try taking someone seriously when they tell you they are knowledgeable about European history and politics if they can't tell the difference between French and German.

And I'm Lebanese, NOT Iranian. :-)

[RealGun]

Not gun related. Makes a science out of of who to hate.

[Thin Black Line]

Let's quote the paraphrase from 2003: He said, "You will never change those people. The only thing to do is let those guys (the Mullahs, the Islamists) do what they want. Let them have their way." He could see no point at all in trying to make some kind of democracy of Iraq.

Not gun related.

No problem, RG, I'll make it Gun-related:

From The Sunday Times
February 18, 2007

‘Security forces’ rob Baghdad academics

Hala Jaber and Ali Rifaat

WHEN Iraqi soldiers and police smashed their way into Mohammed al-Jabouri’s home on the first day of Baghdad’s latest security crackdown last week, he did not imagine they would steal the family’s life savings.

The security forces separated the men from the women and then ordered Jabouri’s wife to give them a suitcase filled with jewellery and £20,000 in cash. When she argued they threatened to shoot her. Then they destroyed the furniture and broke the windows of the cars in the garage.

“The same militiamen who used to raid our areas in the past are now conducting the security crackdown, using this as a chance to attack us further,” Jabouri said.

Later the same night, security forces raided a compound containing the homes of 110 university professors and their families. Professor Hameed al-Aathami described what happened: “They dragged us out of our beds as we slept with our wives and children, took us outside, bound our hands and blindfolded us. They beat, cursed and insulted us.”

Dr Salah Bidayat, the dean of the school of law, fired two shots from his licensed gun in the air to get the soldiers’ attention. “They caught him, lay him on the ground and proceeded to beat, kick and curse him in the most aggressive manner and when he explained we were teachers and professors they told him you are all a bunch of asses and terrorists,” Aathami said.

“They gathered all the men in the centre of the compound and proceeded to their homes, where they broke furniture, stole money, mobile telephones and jewellery as we sat outside listening to our women and children scream and cry,” he said.

“It was very hard for us to go through this. This is the security crackdown they have been bragging about. There is no such thing as a security plan; it is all an attempt to rid the country of the few remaining educated and decent people,” said Aathami, who is planning to leave Iraq as soon as he can.

Baghdad’s latest security offensive was intended to regain neighbourhoods from Shi’ite militiamen and Sunni insurgents. Many believe the advance publicity surrounding the crackdown allowed many militiamen to escape.

American and Iraqi military yesterday reported a drop in violence in Baghdad since the start of the security offensive. They attributed the success to increased troop presence but also to a decision by Sunni and Shi’ite militants to lie low. Sources close to Moqtada al-Sadr, the leader of the Iranian-backed Mahdi Army, confirmed that he had fled Iraq for Iran at dawn on February 8 with 27 senior aides.

[1911Tuner]

On the day the towers went down, I had some business at my bank, where an Iranian woman has worked for several years. She and her husband fled Iran when the Ayatolla and his gang of henchmen took over. They were newlyweds at the time. She is a pleasant, soft-spoken woman who always has a smile on her face...always willing to help. Both she and her husband are practicing Muslims, though she doesn't use the prayer rug while she is at work. Neither did she demand to have her face covered for her driver's license, nor does she dress in traditional garb except when she is in a mosque, or going to and from a mosque. (I ran into them once after they'd been to their church...at a KFC.)

I walked into the bank within an hour after the last tower fell. I was the only customer in the bank when I entered, and the staff was gathered around this lady, trying to console her. She was sobbing uncontrollably, and she kept repeating: "What is wrong with these people! What is wrong with these people! I am so very sorry." As though she felt like we would blame her for the acts of a few radical crazies. She put in for a 2-week vacation that day. When she returned to work, nobody...neither a customer nor an employee...ever showed any animosity toward her. She confided in a few of her friends that her high school aged children didn't fare quite as well, and they left the public school system shortly afterward. Kids...:rolleyes:

They're not all of the same mindset, though apparently there are enough to cause us a lot of grief.

[alpineRKBA]

Zak, that Firing Line thread you quoted in 2003 was started in back in 2000 so I didn't think anything about time gap, sorry. I don't think I actually "maligned" Ghalam. He seemed far too young at 18 to have been a combat fighter pilot that's all. As far as asking him about it, the Laugesen reporter already did. What I was asking for here was independent corroboration of his air force service. Since you have friends who already know him, then cool, they would likely know (seen war photos, etc.) If Ghalam was a combat vet in the air then he'd no doubt want those sites corrected ASAP.

About Iranians in general, I've know some throughout the years and don't have any beef with them. As long as people don't cause trouble, live and let live.

[CrawdaddyJim]

"If Ghalam was a combat vet in the air then he'd no doubt want those sites corrected ASAP."

Probably not, He doesn't strike me as a chest thumping, medal wearing, mall ninja.

[longeyes]

I'm more concerned about having to tell people in another country how "they" ruined MY homeland.

It's happening, day by day.

[Old Fuff]

We should forget it all and just get out of the region completely, forget the oil and get our energy elsewhere.

And just where would that be???

Right now most of the foreign crude we use comes from:

The Middle East
Venezuela
Mexico
East Africa

Oh I know, we should be using "alternative energy." I've heard that for years, but have yet to see any serious moves in that direction. Rather like controlling our borders – all talk and no action.

What I think is going to happen is that the Democrats will force a military withdrawal from Iraq, and shortly thereafter the region will be engulfed in warfare between the various factions. This will cause a sharp increase in petroleum products, especially gasoline. As prices at the pump climb to $4.00/gal. and over, Democrats will try every socialist trick in the book to control prices, but none of them will work.

Any viable energy independence program in this country with take years, even decades – and yes, we should be starting right now. But the dingbats in Washington are unlikely to agree on what that program should be, and while the Democrats may be able to get folks out of their big SUV’s and trucks and into little cars with 2-cylinder engines, they may not survive the next election thereafter.

We have a lot of our military forces stuck in areas where we have no pervasive national interests…

But the Middle East isn’t one of them.

[Glock Glockler]

Not gun related

TOPICS IN THE LEGAL & POLITICAL FORUM DO NOT HAVE TO BE GUN RELATED

[Art Eatman]

But they should relate to the rights of gun owners as a group--and to the laws affecting gun owners as a group.

We are affected by the views of electees, which is why discussion of political candidates is part of our deal.

The name-calling is totally unnecessary and reflects poorly on both the name-caller and this website.

Art

[dmarbell]

Any viable energy independence program in this country with take years, even decades

OldFluff,

That's true. The serious research should have started 33 years ago, when OPEC first embargoed oil. Thirty-seven years ago we put a man on the moon. Alternative energy will never push an 18-wheeler, but it might take a few million people per day on their daily commutes. We don't get all our oil from the middle east, so we don't need to replace all our oil usage. Just that part.

I don't know what the alternatives are, or when they will come, but we have to start now taking this seriously. The only answer to the middle east problem is to make it an area where the US, and other developed countries, have no national interests. The Republicans are no more uniquely endowed with the ability to do that than are the Democrats.

I know I'm a dreamer. But I could tell you exactly what was coming down the pike when US carmakers started making giant SUVs and brought back the hemi. How soon we forget.

[Old Fuff]

Let's look at some reality here:

While all of our imported oil comes from different places, most of it comes from the Middle East. Other sources are:

Venezuela (Now controled by a Commusist Dictator who hates the United States.)

Mexico (Friendly for the moment, but that could change).

East Africa (Most of the countries involved are controled by warlords and thugs).

Meanwhile, an ever-growing Communist China is starting to compeate with us for availavle supplies. They just sent missions to the Middle East, where they were well received, and Venezuela where they struck a trade deal.

I admit that the Republicans aren't very sharp on this issue either, but they aren't as dumb as some Democrats that can't (or won't) wake up and smell the coffee. Almost any effort to develop our own resources are blocked by Democrats, not Republicans.

Within my lifetime we have gone from being completely energy independent to completely dependent on foreign suppliers. If they should for any reason pull the rug from out from under us in the short term this country will crash - both in terms of economics and lifestyle.

And no one, Democrats, Republicans, whoever - is doing anything about it except talk and make proposals that either won't happen, or will take decades to put in place.

And I don't think we have decades left to get the job done.

In the meantime we'd better keep a strong military presence in the Middle East. The way things are going, one of these days Iran with get "the bomb," and then what? Considering how the leadership hates us they will pressure other smaller, weaker oil-producing countries in the area to either dump the United States, or gouge us to the limit.

Then what?

[Charles Martel]

He could see no point at all in trying to make some kind of democracy of Iraq. We should forget it all and just get out of the region completely, forget the oil and get our energy elsewhere.

Roger that. Islam is not amenable to democracy. It is explicitly outlawed in the Koran which dictates no other authority other than Allah.

Bush should have invaded Iraq, kicked ass and then gotten the hell out! This nation building business is doomed to failure. Our lightweight El Presidente Jorge Bush is willing to piss away our most precious resource (our men in uniform) all the while failing in his central duty as CIC to protect and defend the laws of the USA. He has been a dismal failure.

[Old Fuff]

Bush should have invaded Iraq, kicked ass and then gotten the hell out!

And if he (we) had done this what would the situation be now? Or does "kick ass" mean we don't leave anybody among the natives standing? To hit and run would have left a power vacuum that somebody would have filled. You sure that's what you really want?

This country for the foreseeable future is dependent on this region. They have what we must have to maintain our economy and lifestyle. If we pull out it will be at a grave risk, and some others would love us to do it so that they could move in.

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by Charles Martel:
Roger that. Islam is not amenable to democracy. It is explicitly outlawed in the Koran which dictates no other authority other than Allah.

Bush should have invaded Iraq, kicked ass and then gotten the hell out! This nation building business is doomed to failure. Our lightweight El Presidente Jorge Bush is willing to piss away our most precious resource (our men in uniform) all the while failing in his central duty as CIC to protect and defend the laws of the USA. He has been a dismal failure.

Can you tell me where it is explicity outlawed in the Koran? I am curious and since you seem to be an expert in all things Islamic I figured I would ask.

Second, we should have just bombed their country and deposed the leader is what I assume you mean? Alright so were talking about invading a country and overthrowing its govermnent for what? If we do that I assure you that the people who are put into power would be far worse as well as I think it would only make us lose face with our allies. The world opinion of us right now is pretty low it seems. If we were to lose trade partners we might end up hurting ourselves.

So once again please respon, Charles Martel with where in the Koran democracy is outlawed.

[45Frank]

If we weren't fighting these loosers over their don't you think by now we would have had several more attacks here. Yes we would have.:uhoh:

As far as the oil is concerned why has chile I beleive how inport very little oil if any, they use sugar, No reason we can't use corn, we pay farmers BILLIONS :what: not to grow corn in this country well make them grow it and convert it to gas. There's a gas station who sells biofuel about 15 miles from my home when I'm in the area I buy it and my explorer gets better city driving milage although it runs a little rougher. Wouldn't it be worth paying $3.00 per gallon and have our troops home and spending the money on bio fuel and let that part of the world rot away.
Only my thoughts.:cool:

[Optical Serenity]

Not all Iranians support the current regime over there, in fact, very few do, even those that live there.

Most Iranians in the US are extremely patriotic towards the US and when asked the response is "I'm American, and was born in Persia."

Most Iranians in the US are are very pro RKBA.

Most Iranians in the US are also professionals with plenty of property and money, and unlike some others here, they don't send a dime back home.

I know this, because I was born in Tehran, and I'm extremely patriotic, pro-RKBA, and had to flee from Iran because otherwise they'd kill my whole family because we were not Muslim.

God Bless America.

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by 45 Frank:
If we weren't fighting these loosers over their don't you think by now we would have had several more attacks here. Yes we would have.

As far as the oil is concerned why has chile I beleive how inport very little oil if any, they use sugar, No reason we can't use corn, we pay farmers BILLIONS not to grow corn in this country well make them grow it and convert it to gas. There's a gas station who sells biofuel about 15 miles from my home when I'm in the area I buy it and my explorer gets better city driving milage although it runs a little rougher. Wouldn't it be worth paying $3.00 per gallon and have our troops home and spending the money on bio fuel and let that part of the world rot away.
Only my thoughts.

I agree completely. We could easily bring the troops home and start working on alternative fuels. Corn and other biodiesels are an excellent place to start.

However an even better idea would be to start encouraging people to walk more. And to ride bikes. Especially if the distance is less than a mile. It would also help to fight the obesity epidemic we have in our country.

And we should encourage public transportation. If more people start using it we could help to fight pollution and the oil crisis at once.

Gosh, I feel like a hippy. I am gonna go smoke a joint, roll in a pool of mud and then not shower for a month.:neener:

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by Optical Serenity:
Not all Iranians support the current regime over there, in fact, very few do, even those that live there.

Most Iranians in the US are extremely patriotic towards the US and when asked the response is "I'm American, and was born in Persia."

Most Iranians in the US are are very pro RKBA.

Most Iranians in the US are also professionals with plenty of property and money, and unlike some others here, they don't send a dime back home.

I know this, because I was born in Tehran, and I'm extremely patriotic, pro-RKBA, and had to flee from Iran because otherwise they'd kill my whole family because we were not Muslim.

God Bless America.


Shhh....

you will destroy the stereotype that all Middle Easterners are Muslims hell bent on raping the white women and destroying American society.;)

[Charles Martel]

Can you tell me where it is explicity outlawed in the Koran? I am curious and since you seem to be an expert in all things Islamic I figured I would ask.

Second, we should have just bombed their country and deposed the leader is what I assume you mean? Alright so were talking about invading a country and overthrowing its govermnent for what? If we do that I assure you that the people who are put into power would be far worse as well as I think it would only make us lose face with our allies. The world opinion of us right now is pretty low it seems. If we were to lose trade partners we might end up hurting ourselves.

So once again please respon, Charles Martel with where in the Koran democracy is outlawed.

The Koran states unequivocally that Muslims are to accept no other authority other than Islam. Assuming you are asking your question in good faith then I will refer you to a site (there are MANY) where you can educate yourself: http://www.prophetofdoom.net/ The Koran is very clear: there can be no separation of religion and state since allah cannot be subordinate to the state.

Insofar as our misbegotten venture in Iraq: Democracy in any meaningful sense in the Middle East is impossible. Attempts to impose democracy are doomed to failure unless we are willing to (as Ann Coulter stated so eloquently) kill their leaders and conver them all to Christianity. We cannot be expected to do the impossible. But we must defend ourselves and our nation and our way of life.

We legitimately believed that Iraq represented a threat to the security interests of the United States and therefore were justified to act preemptively. We should have established achievable realistice MILITARY objectives and then gotten the hell out. That cesspool will revert back to type IMMEDIATELY upon our departure. Hamstringing our troops and not supporting our troops is unconscionable. We're fighting with one hand behind our backs.

You asked one other time for references which I provided in this post: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3111769#post3111769 Clearly you either didn't read them or ignored them. They provide incontrovertible proof that Islam is a supremacist imperialistic hegemonic political ideology bent on world domination. I would suggest before you so flamboyantly request proof that you take the time to read those proofs I have provided.

[Optical Serenity]

Charles,

I am not Muslim, but, I would urge everyone here who wants to study the Koran to read the original text rather than a website called Prophet of Doom.

http://www.bibliomania.com/1/7/80/1940/frameset.html

That website has the full text, and you can make up your own mind.

Also,

Keep in mind that reference to Allah is simply arabic for God.

If you get a arabic Bible, it refers to Allah, because that is the word for God.

So many people get their panties in a wad because of a word. God is not arabic, Allah is.

[dmarbell]

If we weren't fighting these loosers over there don't you think by now we would have had several more attacks here. Yes we would have

I don't necessarily agree with this assessment. 9/11 was horrific, but it was a wake-up call. Just imagine if they had had access to nukes, and could have gotten them onto airliners. Pilots and flight attendants were trained to cooperate with hijackers. We'd have been toast.

We've beefed up our security and closed some loops. We could have done that and fought Al-Qaida and the Taliban in Afghanistan at the same time, without the distraction of Iraq.

WMDs aside (which apparently they were), the Sunnis were busy helping Saddam keep the Shia in line. Now it's anarchy. US soldiers are targets, but mainly the Sunnis want to kill the Shiites and the Shiites want revenge. This doesn't make for a good republic.

I think Iraq will be the worst misjudgment of any administration in our lifetimes.

Danny

[45Frank]

We've beefed up our security and closed some loops.

Our border security is a JOKE, anyone could walk from anyplace in south or central america right into this country thru our southern borders. thousands upon thousands of Mexicans do it. Until there is true imagration reform and a true border in the south another attack is coming.

We are so so so so so lucky in this country many as well as the politicians take this to lightly. Didn't McVey prove how little of anything sold over the counter can make a bomb. We are BLESSED.

We weren't over there bothering anyone when the Cole was bomber, the first world trade center or on 9-11 for that fact. It was the inactivity on the first two that let them beleive they could get away with a third, They are spending all their money I beleive in Iraq now instead of concentrating on our soil.

[mmike87]

Unfortunately, he's probably right. We will never change these people.

[Zak Smith]

The following topics are not RKBA-related enough for L&P:

* Iraq / ME strategy
* Energy

Religious compatibility with various political systems might be OK, but most religious threads cross the line and get locked eventually.

[Axman]

When I was in college about 15 years ago I had to take a U.S. Government class. The instructor for the class was from...TURKEY! How's that grab you? Best part was, I learned more indepth into the workings of the government from that class. Kinda ironic!

[Autolycus]

So Charles Martel you sent me to a site called Prophet of Doom and expect me to take it as a non biased site.

How about you give me verse numbers and chapters instead of referring me to a website. I mean your an expert on the Koran as you seem to know so much about it. I am sure you have at least read it?

[Thin Black Line]

The following topics are not RKBA-related enough for L&P:
...
* Energy

I agree, especially if people are not going to do the research and then make
statements that "most of our oil comes from the Middle East."

U.S. Oil Supply 2000

Source Millions of Barrels Per Day

Domestic Production 9.39 45.8%
Canada 1.69 8.2%
Mexico 1.36 6.6%
South & Central America 2.58 12.6%
Western Europe 0.89 4.3%
Former Soviet Union 0.07 0.3%
Middle East 2.50 12.2%
North Africa 0.23 1.1%
West Africa 1.40 6.8%
Australasia 0.05 0.2%
China 0.04 0.2%
Japan 0.01 0.1%
Other Asia Pacific 0.18 0.9%
Unidentified 0.11 0.5%

Total 20.50 100.0% (*)

(*)numbers do not add up to 100 due to rounding

Source: Energy Information Administration and BP Statistical Review of
World Energy 2001

But, Zak, at the same time, this (oil and ME policy) becomes "gun-related"
when my fellow Americans consent to sending their uniformed citizens out
with guns to enforce policies based on their own lack of knowledge
on the global situation, ie, being ignorant and manipulated by the PTB.

It is the fedgov's continued attempt to monopolize on the use of force in
our division of labor society that has made the fedgov's argument that the
2nd Amendment has become less relevant and therefore unnecessary for the
average non-uniformed American. The "who is the militia" part of the 2nd
Amendment is defined by the government and is then used to restrict the
citizens who are NOT deeemed part of that militia.

So before everyone wants to strap on the blinders and say this isn't part of
the big picture on guns, they better ask themselves how sending our soldiers
into another country affects their liberty here at home. Because as students
of history we should know it always affects our rights here at home when
even just a few of us go to war overseas. And in our current time, this has
been very few.

It also gets rather ridiculous that US soldiers are enforcing what has essentially
become a matter of internal security in another country including the verification
of gun licenses for the citizens of that country. I won't even get into the
other dumb-crap missions we were on over there.

So how does this relate to Iran? We'd better be sure, in fact how about 100%
convinced given our Iraq intel fiasco, before we consent to the use of force
(example: a very real possibility where I'm going to point a GUN at someone
and one of us may end up dead) in another country.

We all like to talk about how the 2A is not just about target shooting and hunting,
but for the legitimate use of self-defence (force) --especially when it comes to
"justifying" our possession EBRs. As citizens we had better make sure we are
actively involved on the consent to use state force. So there, I just made
the case for THR involvement as citizens when it comes to the use of force,
the militia, and the 2nd Amendment. If people want to split these issues up
and say they can't be handles here, then they are very effectively doing the
dividing and conquering that the antis are already so adept at doing to us.

[Charles Martel]

I am not Muslim, but, I would urge everyone here who wants to study the Koran to read the original text rather than a website called Prophet of Doom.


The "Prophet of Doom" does quote directly from the original text. The other books I've recommended quote directly from the original text. There is no need to distort the Koran to impute evil to Mohammad (MHRIH) and the cult he founded. He was in fact a prophet of doom. I would have chosen another name for the web site since it can so easily be dismissed (just as you have) but do not make the mistake of going to web sites which white wash Islam - anything short of calling it an evil cult is sugar coating.

[Charles Martel]

So Charles Martel you sent me to a site called Prophet of Doom and expect me to take it as a non biased site.

How about you give me verse numbers and chapters instead of referring me to a website. I mean your an expert on the Koran as you seem to know so much about it. I am sure you have at least read it?

It is in fact a non-biased site. And you sir would appear to have adopted the wrong moniker. I would have been thankful to anyone who had given me the references and books I've recommended to you. You instead are churlish and petulant. I've led you to the water. If you refuse to drink then you are simply a child playing games. And I've no time to play games with children other than my own.

I am prayerful that others of good will will take the time to explore those references and books.

Direct quotes from the koran:

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Christians.Islam

You can find additional quotes on any topic DIRECTLY from the Koran by clicking the relevant words on the right hand of the page.

[Thin Black Line]

Maybe I should just acknowledge that we have been divided, conquered,
and wash my hands of this entire matter.....

[Zak Smith]

I have no problem with a thread started with a clear thesis about the moral justification of the use of force and how it is compatible or incompatible with any individual's or the state's actions. However, wildly disparate opinions arguing about foreign policy and military strategy without that articulation and context are not helpful to promoting RKBA.

[longeyes]

The global scene is not about theological exegesis, it is about behavior. It doesn't matter "what the books say," what matters is how people comport themselves--how they treat others, how they co-exist.

[longeyes]

We all like to talk about how the 2A is not just about target shooting and hunting,
but for the legitimate use of self-defence (force) --especially when it comes to
"justifying" our possession EBRs. As citizens we had better make sure we are
actively involved on the consent to use state force. So there, I just made
the case for THR involvement as citizens when it comes to the use of force,
the militia, and the 2nd Amendment. If people want to split these issues up
and say they can't be handles here, then they are very effectively doing the
dividing and conquering that the antis are already so adept at doing to us.
__________________

+1

[Thin Black Line]

Thanks, Zak, and we'll continue to adjust our fire as the shapes of the
silhouettes might appear different at times.

[Charles Martel]

The global scene is not about theological exegesis, it is about behavior.

Well insofar as certain theologies dictates certain behaviors, that theological exegesis can help us understand the critical differences between different religious belief systems. And that exegesis can further highlight the importance of RKBA when the SHTF as it inevitably will.

[longeyes]

Personally I'm very interested in how ideas produce behavior. But my point was that we can get lost in parsing religious tenets, sorting through various sectarian niceties, etc. Actions tell me all I ultimately need to know about what someone purports to believe.

[Charles Martel]

Actions tell me all I ultimately need to know about what someone purports to believe.

Well I would have to agree. Actions do speak louder than words. Many refuse to believe what their eyes see and their ears hear. They've become so indoctrinated by the leftist multicultural relativistic drivel that they are no longer capable of analytical skeptical thought. For them, exegesis is nothing more than an excuse to deny the evidence provided by their senses.

[Charles Martel]

I do wish to clarify my statement regarding Islam being incompatible with democracy. Of course Islam and democracy are compatible once the Islamists have killed, converted or subjugated all infidels. Under these circumstances, Islamic majority rule is possible. But in no sense is a meaningful constitutional republic protecting basic human rights compatible with Islam. Pluralism is incompatible with Islam. A meaningful democracy protecting basic human rights is incompatible with Islam.

Islam cannot coexist equally with other religions. This is clear from any reading of the Koran. Religious freedom and nearly every other basic human right would be abrogated under any Islamic system. And the Islamists will not rest until the world has been converted, killed or subjugated as is commanded in the Koran.

[Autolycus]

Charles Marten: Straight up answer time...

Have YOU actually read the Koran from end to end?

Second if your so anti-Muslim why are you posting on THR? The site is only here because of the kindness of a Muslim man. You know one of those guys who is out to kill all of us and destroy our country, well at least according to you.

[Charles Martel]

Have YOU actually read the Koran from end to end?

Yes. And it is VERY tough slogging. Most of it makes no sense whatsoever. It is written in no particular order. There is no discernable organization. The stories it tells are preposterous. No rational human being could read it and come away with the impression that it was written by a sane man.

Second if your so anti-Muslim why are you posting on THR? The site is only here because of the kindness of a Muslim man. You know one of those guys who is out to kill all of us and destroy our country, well at least according to you.

There you go again. I've never said all Muslims were bad or that all were out to kill all of us. This is your straw man argument. I said that the koran commands Muslims to kill infidels, not to befriend infidels, to deceive infidels etc. etc. etc. This is indisputable. And if you don't believe me just listen to their imams. Simple my misnamed friend.

I happen to be in business with a Muslim. I know and like his wife and children. We do not discuss religion. But despite his many admirable qualities, his religion is one that preaches hatred intolerance and death to all infidels. His silence and quiet complicity are ominous. I've NEVER heard a Muslim reject ANY teaching of the Koran. They are not allowed to do so. There is no spirit of free inquiry in the Muslim world.

There are many fine Muslim people, but indisputably their koran teaches hatred, intolerance, subjugation and Islamic hegemony.

[SoCalShooter]

I like to think most ME people are good people. Atleast all the ones I have met were ok. Its unfortunetly a few that ruin it for all of them.

[quatin]

Any viable energy independence program in this country with take years, even decades

What? That's not the problem, alternative energy is already here. Most people just don't care enough to spend the extra $$ to use it, because they want to chip away at the cheaper oil based services. You want to cut your oil usage? Start investing in these:

http://www.asappower.com/
http://www.utilityfree.com/solar/
http://automobiles.honda.com/shopping/landing.aspx?lo=0e0000b1000a1a0a0b4a3b5b200010000103a2000d0dzfaaaaaaaa&groupname=accord&modelname=accord+hybrid&ef_id=1097:3:968d5ad045cec4f03f02b0c33337524e_340687107:6aLwT0GvMUIAAEqoU1MAAAAM:20070219223321
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/

[Art Eatman]

Enough wandering for one thread.

Art