[singlestack9]

Looking for recent ballistic gel test results comparing the best currently available .357 Mag ammo. Specifically, looking for numbers on penetration and expansion through bare and also denim. Anyone have a source?

[Rob96]

It's really hard to come by, as most people aren't testing revolvers these days.

[singlestack9]

It's really hard to come by, as most people aren't testing revolvers these days.

That's what is getting me disturbed. Not only are they not being tested, but ammo manufacturers have spent next to zero R&D time/money on the .357 Mag cartridge probably in the last 15 years...

Whereas, all the R&D is being poured into designing the best possible cartridges in all the common service calibers (9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 SIG).

I was reading over on tacticalforums.com (http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000179.html), and DocGKR made the following post (which disturbed me greatly):

During the early to mid 1980’s, like many people, I was duped by articles singing the praises of the .357 Mag 125 gr JHP. I carried a 4” 686 and a customized 3” M13 loaded with Fed 125 gr JHP. However, after going on active military duty and being in a position to test ammunition at the Letterman Army Institute of Research with Dr. Fackler, it became obvious that the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP’s tended to have relatively shallow penetration, frequently fragmented with resultant decrease in permanent crush cavity, and had temporary cavities of insufficient size to contribute significantly to wounding. In addition, these loads had a large muzzle flash and blast, as well as a relatively harsh recoil which inhibited accuracy and re-engagement speed. As the FBI established a science based ammunition testing program, their research data also showed less than stellar performance from the lightweight .357 Mag loadings, including the 125 gr JHP’s. For those individuals who doubt evidence based research and prefer “street results”, the CHP, the largest agency to issue .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s on the West Coast, clearly reports significantly better results in their officer involved shootings since switching to .40 S&W 180 gr JHP loadings, based on officer perception, objective crime scene measurements, as well as the physiological damage described in the relevant autopsy studies. Anecdotally, one need look no further than the failure of Trooper Coates’s .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s to incapacitate the criminal who murdered him to dramatically illustrate the problems with this load.

At this time, I do not believe that the .357 Magnum is a good caliber choice for a primary duty, back-up, or self-defence weapon.

I happen to own a S&W 686P, but now I'm starting to really wonder if the .357 Mag is really as great as all the hype. Maybe I'd be better of with one of the standard service calibers, since that is where all the R&D dollars are going into the best bullet designs.

[444]

I hate to get involved in these types of threads because there really is no way for us to come to a logical, educated conclusion. But this stuff sounds like a bunch of crap to me.
"one need look no further than the failure of Trooper Coates’s .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s to incapacitate the criminal who murdered him to dramatically illustrate the problems with this load."
So, based on one single shooting we are going to condem the cartridge ? Failure to incapacitate criminals happens all the time with every caliber up to and including rifle bullets and shotgun slugs. I saw a guy within the last year that was shot right in the center of the chest with a .40 S&W and it took him two days to die. What does it prove ? As has been mentioned many times on threads like this, during WWII people were getting shot by 8mm Mausers, .30-06, .303s, 7.62x54s................ and lived to tell about it. And now we condemn the .357 for doing the same thing ?
"At this time, I do not believe that the .357 Magnum is a good caliber choice for a primary duty, back-up, or self-defence weapon."
Balderdash. The .357 was used for years as a law enforcement weapon. I am no expert on the subject, but I have heard very few complaints about it over the years. Just prior to the .357 cartridge being unveiled to the public, Wesson went on an extended hunting trip where he took pretty much every big game animal on the North American continent using a .357 revolver; I believe this included grizzly bear. And it is inadequate for humans ?

:rolleyes:

[Morgan]

Note that the good Doc is speaking of the 125gr loadings.

I would feel fine with a 158gr magnum, probably a Gold Dot from ProLoad, were I to carry a .357. When I bought my Dad a .357 I gave him 158's.

Actually, with the Gold Dot or similar bonded bullet, a 125 should hold together and penetrate well - but I'd still go for the 158.

[444]

If it isn't on wheels or have bombs hanging under it's wings, don't count on a one shot stop.

[Neal Bloom]

I always felt undergunned with my .357. ;) I guess that is why I own 5 of them.

[singlestack9]

Okay. So what are the best defensive loads for a 4" 686P? And can anyone provide test results comparing the penetration and expansion scores between what is considered the top .357 Mag loads? Thanks.

[Rob96]

I thought Trooper Coates revolver was loaded with 38spcl. +p ammo. But anyway.

In my Ruger 4" GP-100 I carry Wichester 145gr Silvertips. You will probably be very hard pressed to find a load this good. I have done my own informal tests of shooting this load thru 3 layers of an M65 field jacket into water soaked newsprint. It always expanded, even when fired out of my 2.25" SP-101. Expansion is over .60 and penetration is 14"-16". Other loads I have tested in my Rugers, Winchester 110gr JHP and Federal 125gr Classic Hi Shoks. I would feel comfortable with any of them. The Speer 125gr Gold Dot is a definet thumper, though I haven't conducted my informal testing of this one.
Edited to add.

http://pub57.ezboard.com/fammolabforumfrm21.showMessage?topicID=78.topic

http://pub57.ezboard.com/fammolabforumfrm21.showMessage?topicID=36.topic

[singlestack9]

How does the Winchester 145gr silvertips compared to the Winchester 180 gr. Partition Gold JHP?

*sigh*

I wish somebody would just go ahead and test all of these loads out in ballistic gelatin and post their results! The .357 Mag, while not a popular LE round anymore, is still probably THE most popular self-defense revolver round (perhaps aside from .22lr or .38spl but who cares about those)...

[valnar]

Federal or Proload 158 should be fine. Federal also makes a 130, but have not tried it.

-Robert

[singlestack9]

So far I've heard:

Winchester 145gr silvertip
Winchester 180gr Partition Gold JHP
Federal/Proload 158gr

Let's see the gel numbers!

[ChristopherG]

singlestack,

Noone is producing 357 gel numbers for the same reason noone is researching bullet designs to solve the problems of the 357; there are no problems with the .357.
Now, I agree to concerns about 125 gr bullets along the line expressed in the Fackler-influenced site you mention above. But in a 158 gr. bullet, it's a pretty simple matter to figure out that the 357 works. In lieu of gel tests, you can look at statistics like the comparative velocity, weight, and sectional density of the 357 vs. whatever competitor you want to stack it up against. The bullets are certainly of similar design--the silvertip, or the Gold Dot, or whatever.

If what you're wanting is for one of us to go out and 'test' the .357, I'll tell you why I'm not going to bother; I, like a lot of other folks, shoot the 357 because I'm confident it doesn't need testing. I shoot 158 gr. Gold Dots, and I'm not worried that they're not as good as anything else currently available.

Now, I wouldn't mind having more choice, to be sure. For special applications, like a 2" gun, I'd like federal to introduce a EMFJ, or corbon their powerball, to help ensure expansion at the lower velocities one has to deal with in a shorter barrel. But in a 4 or 6" gun? Hardly necessary.

ps--the 180 partition is a hunting bullet; even the hardcore Facklerite would admit, I think, that it presents the risk of overpenetration--thus wasting bullet energy, even if you don't think about what's behind your target.

[WESHOOT2]

Humans are not scientific, so jello tests are IMNSHO meaningless.

Science has not answered your question, so just guess, or learn from others experience.

In a 357 4" suggest a quality (Pro Load, Cor-Bon, Federal, Winchester, R-P, Georgia Arms) high-speed 125g JHP.
For shooting people.
In the 40 S&W try R-P's conventional 155g JHP.
In 45 ACP I'm partial to the 230g Golden Saber projectile, and I consider the Winchester SXT to be a good bullet, too.
For shooting people.

But there is no data that meets "scientific" muster, so quit asking.
Please.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha (22LR) ha!

[Penforhire]

To me it comes down to statistics. You have to pick SOME criteria for choosing a defensive round (and caliber).

I know .22's kill more people but no way do they have a good one-shot-stop %. I also know 12 ga buckshot has an excellent record, but we're talking handguns here. Seems to me the published statistics point to a stoutly loaded 125 g 357 Mag cartridge as the load of choice and I have no doubts about its power compared to, say, 9 mm standard loads. I wouldn't feel terrible about 158 g but, to me, more velocity and penetration is better.

I am open to more statistics, anyone? But anecdotal evidence (particular instance) is useless.

[ChristopherG]

Penforhire--the 125 will penetrate less, not more, than the 158. That's the crux of the debate between Marshall/Sanow & Fackler as representatives of the debate between 'light & fast' vs. 'heavy & slow', a.k.a. 'energy/shock' vs. penetration. Heavier bullets = greater momentum = deeper reliable penetration. Lighter bullets = greater (kinetic) energy = more 'shock'. The concern expressed at the top with the 125 is that it's going so fast & expands so rapidly that it doesn't have a chance, sometimes, to get into the boilerroom.

The stats you point to come principally from the research of Marshall and Sanow. It is a kind of 'systematized' anecdotal evidence, the 'systematization' of which has been questioned (polite term) by some. I dunno--but I like the idea that I might hit the spine from any angle on a target, so I go with the 158. Anyway you look at it, the 357 is a great delivery system.

[Lofland]

Go read Sanow & Marshall, Stopping Power, so you can study both sides in this Jihad. Sanow & Marshall have test results for various .357 loads. I don't believe everything in that book, but I at least think they probably did a decent job with the gelatin tests. In .357, you can get a bullet hits whatever spot you prefer on the expansion-penetration spectrum. You can look at www.stoppingpower.net to see if they have any results since the publication of their book. In general, neither side in the bullet controversy impresses me very much.

[Jim March]

I'm shopping for a 357 for next month's paycheck :) and I intend to score some 158 Gold Dot-based load for "business purposes" - Georgia Arms or Proload in all likelyhood. I'm looking at either a 4.68" or 5.5" tube.

It's not at all as critical a choice as "what to feed a 38snubbie". There's probably a couple dozen 357 loads I'd trust my neck to in a 4" or greater barrel, and only three on a 2" barrel 38+P. In a 2" 357, the number of possible loads drops some but it's still not too crazy...some of the 125s have an energy advantage in the short barrel.

[singlestack9]

Well, at the moment I have the gray colored box Winchester SuperX 357 MAG 145gr Silvertip HP "Personal Protection" loaded up in my 7 shot 686P....

Seems like a good compromise between the 158gr and the 125gr camps....

I'd still like to see some ballistics tests, since I am one who believes in the FBI protocols as far as expansion and penetration.

[444]

I don't see what the problem is with using a 158 grain bullet ?
Police used them for decades in the .38 Special with a very poor bullet design.
Today we have far superior bullets and we are pushing them at substantially more velocity than those cops of yesteryear.
But now, with those two monumental improvements, we don't even want to consider them :confused:

[sm]

Yeah, agree on 158 gr lead also.

<whistle> Hey WEESHOOT, get back in here, and where is Sam ?

Ok so I knows we have new bullets and such, but many of the 357s (even 38 spl) are shorter bbls. people are totin'. 158 grainer especially in LSWC HP , would make sense to me. Umm I use them. Don't shoot jello myself, do use the "mud/dirt" test...occaissonal critters and such, and have shot bldg materials, cars, windshields...

Educate, explain, thoughts?

[WESHOOT2]

If velocity doesn't mtter why is there a 300 Kong?

Just some personal-type-thinking BS: spine shots are hard to make under stress (but some train this way -- heavier bigger bullets); short or long, a barrel needs testing before statements like "It's too short to give good speed" are made; IF I were to bring a 357 to the party (Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha!) I'd be wearing one with 125g JHP(at maybe 1500fps) all stuffed up inside it UNLESS I were in a LE capacity, because then I'd be stuffing it full of 140g XTP's going 1400fps; better make all hits regardless of caliber -- especially the first one; no one wants to be shot by anything (I've noticed); high-velocity handgun ammo striking people seems to disorient them more than heavy penetrators (anecdotal -- I haven't been shot by both); caliber of shooter is more important; stay safe so's it (this discussion) will ALWAYS be moot.

My wife's M38 holds 140g XTP-HP's just over expansion threshold, we hope.

[Jim March]

Well first, an unjacketed lead 158 hollowpoint moving at 357 velocities wouldn't work real well. In hardcast, no expansion, in soft it would just go seriously "splat" and lead the barrel something crazy (to where shot #6 might be problematic).

So with the 357's leading issues, you've got to run a jacket on any expandable load. JHPs need speed to work with; through the late '70s and well into the '80s, you really needed more than 1,200fps and that meant sticking with 125s to get the velocity (1,400+).

BUT the Gold Dot 158 will expand down around 1,150 or even a bit less. Proload sets theirs up at 1,250 from a 4" tube, so they're still in the groove from a 2" barrel as long as the range isn't crazy...from a 4", they should work OK even out to 100 yards. And the Gold Dots resist "overspeed problems" so shoot 'em in a 6", 8" or even carbine barrel and they should do quite well although I imagine they'll shed some in a carbine. Still, the hotter 125 loads will probably come completely unglued in a carbine and show severe overspeed signs in an 8".

("Overspeed" means the nosecone just shredded post-expansion and the main core of the round dropped back down to close to caliber diameter and probably drilled straight through still moving at lethal speeds. Bad scene in any bystander-dense situation...)

[Rob96]

Here is the newest info I could dig up for you.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm

It is from 1998 but most 357 loads probably haven't changed much if at all over the last 5 yrs. Like it was said the 357 works and hasn't needed improvement. On the 180gr Partition Gold loads. I think it is a fairly sout load to shoot quickly and accurately.

[BluRidgDav]

Didn't a 125 grain .357 load "win" the Strausburg(sp?) tests ???
(timed incapacitation of big goats that were shot in the chest for a controlled simulation of living human targets)

and

Aren't a lot of LE agencies (including the Secret Service) switching to the .357 SIG (125gr @ 1350fps) to get "old" .357 revolver performance out of an autoloading platform ???

Seems like the .357 magnum is still HARD to beat as a self-defense caliber !!!

[444]

Jim, I wasn't talking about cast lead bullets.
You mention that a Gold Dot will expand at around 1150 fps. I dug out some load data/chrono data I happened to have lying right in front of me and see that I tested three handloads out of my SP101 with a 2 1/4" barrel. They averaged 1084 fps, 1149 fps, 1201 fps. These same loads out of the 4" GP100 gave me 1354 fps, 1321 fps, and 1234 fps. All but one of the loads out of the 2 1/4" SP101 should give you enough velocity for reliable expansion of the Gold Dot HP and obviously all the loads in the 4" barrel give way more than enough velocity to expand that bullet. All these loads are straight out of the book, I wasn't pushing things here.
I went in and opened a box of Hornady XTP bullets to get that little paper they put in the bottom of the box that lists the range of impact velocitites that give the best performance for their bullets. In .357, 158 grain it says 700-1400 fps. Again, this criteria is very easy to meet.

I personally believe in heavy bullets, and out of the .357 mag. I see the 158 gr. bullet as being the most versitile. It gives you plenty of velocity to give good bullet performance and enough weight to give you good penetration also.

[Blueduck]

Didn't a 125 grain .357 load "win" the Strausburg(sp?) tests ???

Tons of data is quoted from the test from lots of sources. Problem is when you try to look into the actual test there is STRONG evidense the whole thing was a hoax that never took place...

Somebody rounded up over 100 fairly rare goats, all of the approximate same size/age, surgically implanted sophisticated electronics into them, shot them measuring results. Then anonymously submitted the report:uhoh:

[Mannlicher]

Gun writers and testing gurus have to come up with something new all the time to stay in business. Contentious subjects like saying that the .357 is no longer viable just increases readership and sells magazines.

One of the reasons that there is not a lot of new loads coming out, it that there is not much room for improvment. The .357 works. Period.

My personal favorite in a Factory loading is the Hydroshock 158 grain JHP, or the Speer GD JHP.

For handloads, which I carry most of the time, I like the Speer 146 grain SWCJHP over a fair amount of SR4756. Accuracy is wonderful, recoil is not that bad, and that bullet DOES expand at 1400fps.

[Jim March]

444: If the Hornady XTP 357 will expand at 700fps, I'll eat my hat. And the only hat I have is a motorcycle helmet, so that's saying something.

The XTP is really a hunting load. Expansion doesn't tend to be at the top of the scale, expansion is delayed, but once expanded it's tough and somewhat resistant to both bone-hits and "overspeed problems". In 240grain 44Mag flavor, it's a GREAT load for black bear and boar, and can do that job in 357 too if you can get around 1,450 at the muzzle.

But it consistently stinks at low-speed expansion. I won't even consider any XTP for 38+P.

Hell, the Gold Dots won't do well at 700fps either, but they'll almost always expand at lower velocities than the equivelent XTP, caliber and bullet weight being equal.

Regarding that 1998 data somebody posted: there have indeed been significant tweaks to the Gold Dots since then, and probably others. So take that with a grain o' salt (not meant as a slur on the website or the accuracy of the original data). That said, it's interesting to see Federal's stuff consistently sucking again. There's a LOT of people who just insist on swearing by Hydrashocks when the performance data from EVERY source shows 'em down close to dead last and way too often, the powder charges not delivering peak "ooomph".

[444]

" If the Hornady XTP 357 will expand at 700fps, I'll eat my hat. And the only hat I have is a motorcycle helmet, so that's saying something."

So if I shoot one into an anvil, you will send me a picture of you wolfing down some fiberglass ?

[Dave T]

This is in support of the idea of the 158g in the 357 instead of M&S's darling, the 125g.

The 155g bullet is getting to be all the rage in the 40 S&W Auto pistols. It goes something like 1100-1200 fps. It would stand to reason that a 158g bullet that was only 1mm smaller in diameter, traveling at about the same velocity, should do at least as well as the auto pistol.

[ChristopherG]

I'm intrigued by the bullet Mannlicher mentions--the 146 gr Half-Jacketed Semi-Wadcutter Lead Hollowpoint. I hadn't been aware of its existence before, but here it is:

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/275027

Anybody else have any experience with this bullet? Seems like you could build a super moderate-velocity (and moderate blast) load that would both penetrate adequately and expand easily enough to stop in its target with some certainty. As I say, I'm intrigued. The chance to shoot a LSWCHP, basically, at 357 velocities without the leading problem alluded to by Jim above. Any further experiences or opinions to share?

[Jim March]

Whoa! Those ARE nice...dang! I wonder how fast you can drive 'em without 'em coming apart? I'd guess 1,200fps or so? If the lead is the same hardness as the usual plain-lead LSWC-HPs used in 38+P, the "sweet spot" oughtta be around 1,100ish with good performance from 950 to...dunno, but I wouldn't go past 1,200.

By 1,400 I'll betcha they'll shed the nosecone like Hillary dropped Vince Foster :scrutiny:. But if the goal was to get something useful without full-boogie-stomp recoil in an SP101 or similar (like maybe an Unobtanium S&W?)....HMMMmmmm.

[BluesBear]

I was using the Speer 146gr SWCHP over 25 years ago in my 6" Python.
I loved this bullet. It did everything I wanted it to do.

It was accurate.
It didn't lead the barrel.
It would vaporize a gallon milk jug of water.
It would pulverize a block of ice.
It would rip the shot out of a phone book, wet or dry.

I was reloading Remington and Norma brass using CCI 550 Magnum Small Pistol Primers over a healthy charge of IMR4576. I won't mention the exact load because I think it might be a bit stout even though I never had any excess pressure indications and recoil was about the same as the hot Hornady 158gr JHP. I think I got this load out of the Law Enforcement Handgun Digest but I am not sure.

Just my tuppence, YMMV.

[Jim March]

Just guessing here, but if the goal is to do "full power loads" with, say, a 158 @1,300 or better, the Gold Dot will work better than that 146. The lead and jacket of the Gold Dot are bonded such that they resist flying apart.

The role I see for those 146s is for when you want to cut the power/recoil some, basically working at the border of "really warm 38Spl" and 357. Betcha anything that at around 1,100fps, they're the best in the world.

25 years ago, these probably WERE the best possible at pretty much any speed, but the tech has advanced some since.

Now, those are my opinions based on reading a lot...when I do score a 357 and start reloading (soon now! I'm *employed* finally!) I intend to play around with both.

[ChristopherG]

Yup, Jim, that's exactly the role that I'd envision for these. My own unobtanium 357 shoots the 158 Gold dot wonderfully at around 1100, and is controllable to me (with appropriate grips & practice)--but I feel like I'm on the lower end of the performance envelope for that bullet. With this 146, I could hit that speed or even a little faster with the same recoil, and a lot more confidence that the bullet would splat on impact. I'm gonna try 'em out.

[Blueduck]

357 really became known as the king of stopping power in LE with a 125 grain hollowpoint driven so fast that it regularly fragmented. Now days most the high-tech bullets (Gold Dot, Bonded Golden Sabre) are designed virtually from scratch to do anything BUT fragment. I know there have been cases where fragmentation or overexpansion of various rounds led to underpenetration, but I'm wondering if were really comparing apples to untested oranges looking at the street results of the old style 125 grain hollowpoint results compared to the newer tech rounds???

Another thing I've wondered about is jelly test which seem to indicate that the old style 125 grain hollowpoints were on the shallow end of the penetration scale (enough to put some folks off it), yet I've also heard LE agencies and others repeatidly justify the move away from the 357 due to it's OVERpenetration???

[Jim March]

Blueduck? Don't assume that the guys writing up the PR material for police departments who are justifying a switch to slideguns are either A), gun guys and technically correct or B), honest regardless of their technical expertise.

[George Hill]

Wait a sec...

Fragmentation is bad?
But lately that is all the M-16/AR-15 cats have been banking on... that the 5.56MM fragments.
So if a 55 gr .22 caliber slug that fragments is so outstanding... why wouldn't a .355 caliber slug weighing in at 125 grains be just as earthshattering?

[444]

As long as you get decent penetration also, it isn't bad. In fact it is good.
Keep in mind though that in the rifle bullet (5.56 military ball) you also have a steel core that continues to penetrate after the lead and jacket have fragmented.

[Jim March]

George, there appears to be different "types" of fragmentation going on between the two examples.

The 223 is moving fast enough that the fragments are thrown explosively forward. This aids wounding, and is more or less how a Glaser or Magsafe works, but better because of the velocity/energy involved.

With a 125grain 357 moving at between 1,400 and 1,500fps, something different happens: expansion begins and it looks like the typical JHP "mushroom", but then the "rim" or "petals" flake away and are found dribbled back along the wound channel like breadcrumbs on a trail. They're not thrown forward or even sideways, and don't do squat for wounding. I've seen any number of gelatin photos and test data where this pattern is clear...the round isn't "exploding" at all.

With this pattern, you end up with a projectile that's dropped back down close to the bore caliber and minus about 20% - 25% of it's original weight. This is sub-optimal.

The Gold Dot's serious bonding of the lead to the jacket was an attempt to prevent this effect, and it works...or rather, it moves the effect up in speed by at least 100fps over most other JHPs and by some reports, considerable more than 100 in most calibers. (That's why I keep mentioning Gold Dots for people who have unusually long barrels for their caliber, such as with carbines or whatever.)

Now, drive a 125 fast enough and you DO get that "explosive red mist" effect. A number of wildcat cartridges involve necking down the 44Mag or 41Mag to 357 and driving 125s at up to 2,200fps :eek:. Some reports from those loonies claim that "red mist effects" of the round violently "blowing up" on impact and doing wound damage seldom seen this side of a cannon have been reported.

But there's very little hard data on the subject. I'm willing to believe that at some velocity point, very explosive fragmentation happens with 357-bore projectiles, but I don't claim to know what the required velocity is. The cheap way to play with this is to get a Blackhawk convertable in 357/9mm and have Gary Reeder ream the 9mm out to 356GNR (necked down 41Mag) and I'm seriously considering doing just that. (As a bonus: if that wildcat is downloaded to where it's only doing conventional 357Mag peformance, recoil should be more moderate as the peak pressures involved are lower, and the cases should fall right out of the gun for the same reason, if the cylinder bores are polished some.)

[Pinned&Recessed]

I like 158 gr .357 myself.

I recall reading the summary of the tests the FBI conducted when they were in a frenzy to replace their sidearms and were testing the 10mm Auto. IIRC, they tested some other calibers side-by-side with the 10mm and the only two others to pass all the barrier, clothing and gel tests were Federal's 230gr Hydra-shok .45 ACP and 158gr Hydra-shok .357 Magnum.

I know some here poo-poo Federal for wimping out on powder charges, and it's deserved because they sometimes do, but I think they design damn good bullets. I like the Hydra-shok and the older Hi-shok.

I found thier 158gr Hydra-shoks to be damn reliable out of my 4" M19. 1203-1255 fps has been my spread as tested on a buddy's chrono. Not to shabby.

[BluRidgDav]

Maybe someone has some high-speed experience from a old .357 Remington MAXimum?

or

By firing some hot .357 loads out of a 18-20" carbine barrel?

or

By firing some .357 bullets handloaded into a .35 Remington rifle?