ATF email alert on kit guns in Mexico.


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PvtPyle
May 27, 2009, 12:48 PM
The ATF just sent out a restricted alert to the CA LEO's (both federal and local) that showed four kit guns that had been built on flats and converted to MG's somewhere along the way. They outlined how you could buy flats and kits, fold them and then build an illegal MG out of it and bypass all the laws. They are asking LEO's in CA to report and kit guns they may find to the ATF so they can purse this matter.

Now I do not have a copy of the email, as I said it is restricted to LEo distribution, but I got read a good bit of it. Either way this can not be good for future imports and home builders as this just gives them more ammo for their fight.

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BHP FAN
May 27, 2009, 01:01 PM
It behooves those of us in California to follow the letter of the law.

ravonaf
May 27, 2009, 01:16 PM
They outlined how you could buy flats and kits, fold them and then build an illegal MG out of it and bypass all the laws.

Does it bypass the law or does it break the law? Wouldn't something that bypassed the law be a legal loophole?


Correct me if I'm wrong but can't anyone with some knowledge and a machine shop convert just about any semi-auto into an automatic weapon? Does anyone buying legal kits off the internet going to start getting raided by the AFT now?

PvtPyle
May 27, 2009, 02:45 PM
With simple hand tools I can convert just about any semi-auto rifle into a select fire weapon. And the best part is that the .gov trained me how to do it. There is no science to it, you takes a logical series of steps and parts to make them work.

The ATF is also trying to raise hell about the metal bodied airsoft guns saying you can convert them to MG's easily. We are looking for a busted airsoft so we can see if it is easily done or not. Then we will whip out the hand drill and convert a regular receiver. (yes, I am licensed to build NFA items like this). But the point is that any build is very easily converted if you follow the logical chain and either have or make the parts. The vector RPD is one that is VERY easy to convert if you have spare parts.

The ATF is trying to demonstrate that these guys are trying to get around the law, which they are by breaking other laws and show it as a gunshop loophole combined with the readily available parts kits. Never mind the fact that the individuals in question are breaking a bunch of laws in the process, this demands new laws to close the posibility of anyone being able to do it again!!! (insert projectile vomitting here)

ClickClickD'oh
May 27, 2009, 03:00 PM
Plain sillyness.

The ATF is plainly heading towards making parts kits illegal with a revitalization of the "OMG Mexico" bit that so recently failed.

Of course, it's absolutely silly to anyone with half a brain since it's one logical step from bending a flat and assembling the parts kit to completely assemblying the rifle from scratch.. which any competant machinist already knows isn't that hard in the case of the AK.

runrabbitrun
May 27, 2009, 03:55 PM
ATF?
What's that?
Automatic toilet flusher... http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l299/tlc1223be/scratchhead.gif


Seriously, IMO it's high time many
of the alphabet agencies get shut down.

We're gonna need those misappropriated funds for socialized health care. http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l299/tlc1223be/laughing7.gif

MagnumDweeb
May 27, 2009, 04:35 PM
As a homebuilder (some AKs, i.e. Yugo M64, Yugo M70AB2, Hungarian AMD 65, Romy G, CETMEs, FALs) I can tell you that most AK kits used to include FA FCGs, and before TAPCO stopped selling to the public you could easily buy the Semi-auto only FCGs and easily build a Semi-auto only AK. Now that TAPCO only sells to retailers (granted other companies still sell retail) and more and more kits do not include barrels because of some ban I've been told, most folks don't use kits anymore.

But lately I've seen Dp28s, Polish RPDs, and 1919 kits out there. With the DP28 so long as you know what you are doing with an Arc welder for 210 volt you can reweld the old receiver and modify it to remove the FA ability. Granted any terrorist with half a brain would just reweld the receiver and clean it up a little to be far along on their way to a FA LMG.

The Chechnyians were building FA MGs for 37mm out of cargo truck axels, steel pipes and studs, with the use of Drill presses, lathes, and homemade gun drills. Not to mention homemade small parts like triggers and such. The Russians kept running into these little homebrews with frightening results as the Russian soldiers got chewed to pieces by them.

It's far easier to build a FA firearm given it's a open bolt as opposed to a closed bolt. Remember lots of folks talk about STENs but a far better example would be the Soviet PPSH41. I was doing one as a project but after I cleaned the parts up and was looking at the 80% receiver, the grief of getting the sheriff's department to sign off and get the ATF forms just didn't measure up so I have spare parts for when I eventually buy one of the finished carbines built as new. Had the same epiphany for my PPSH43 kit and just turned it into a pistol. As I was looking at the necessary steps to create the semi-auto form, it was I realized a lot easier to do it as an open bolt if I wanted to, but I don't.

A blowback or recoil style MG isn't really all that difficult for the skilled and experienced machinest, it gets trickier when you start rifleing the barrels but a good broach cutter carbide bit and some steady hands and patience would allow you to use a lathe to crank out a low quality barrel.

runrabbitrun
May 27, 2009, 04:59 PM
Can't we just get full autos cheap from Mexico anyway?

Whats the big deal http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l299/tlc1223be/dontknow.gif

runrabbitrun
May 27, 2009, 06:09 PM
It's a nice thought. A people's own government wouldn't have power to limit the people's power and set itself above the people. Ergo, it's not our government anymore, otherwise we would be able to get all the full autos we want.

I hear ya there my bud and I concur.

UhKlem
May 28, 2009, 01:24 AM
Federal law allows one to build a gun for personal use with no markings required if built for personal use and not for sale. But a homebuilt gun from flats in California would need to be California legal (limited magazine capacity for a semi-auto and none of the onerous cosmetic features) or registered prior to the ban (thus marked).

So these guns even as semi-autos are already a crime in California regardless of whether they are a semi-auto or converted to FA. "Pursue the matter"? The only purpose of this that I can see is to gather statistics on non-factory-built guns from local law enforcement who might otherwise not bother to trace an unmarked gun (which by definition is untraceable). To what purpose this data can be used one can only guess.

One could be to find out that flat-built AKs are a certain percentage of confiscated contraband. Then one could use that number to pressure for the ban or retroactive (unConstitutional ex post facto) control of homebuilt guns that are unrelated to crime because they COULD be used in a crime.

If you want to make rain, you have to cloud seed. If they are finding illegal MGs then their original source as factory built or home built guns from flats is sort of irrelevant. Unless the desire is to associate earlier non-crime activities with a potential for later criminal activities. Such thinking during Prohibition would have cast aspersion on rye and corn.

ar10
May 28, 2009, 07:04 AM
I've read one ATF report about a year ago regarding assault weapons straw purchased in the US and smuggled into Mexico. After delivery they were given to the gang gunsmith and he modified them to full auto and just about every configuration you can imagine. The report stated when they confiscated some of the weapons to trace serial numbers, the smithing was so good they thought they came directly from the manufacturer.

nc76
May 28, 2009, 08:59 AM
For a noob on this subject. What is a flat? Is it a receiver that has to be folded, welded and drill to be able to be ready to accept parts?

runrabbitrun
May 28, 2009, 09:02 AM
No it's an apartment silly.

Just kidding. :-)

Lightninstrike
May 28, 2009, 09:15 AM
Can't we just get full autos cheap from Mexico anyway?

I bet with the right amount of grease you could. Wouldn't advocate doing it though.

heviarti
May 28, 2009, 09:15 AM
Wait... an AK can be full auto when you hand build it? next thing you know you'll be telling me that an AR is a fire control system away from being full auto... crazy talk.

runrabbitrun
May 28, 2009, 09:16 AM
shhhhhhhhhh don't tell anyone. :uhoh: :D

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