how to get a FFL?


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xbox360
May 28, 2009, 04:12 PM
How do you apply to get a FFL? is it possible for non business? I seen local FFL dealers like out of home. :confused: :confused: do you have to pay taxes? fee's? a year?? :confused: :confused: :confused:

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TexasRifleman
May 28, 2009, 04:13 PM
It's not super expensive. You can't do it as a "hobby", you have to prove to ATF that you intend to try to make a living at it. You can do it out of your home but that may involve zoning issues etc.

I think the fee for the license is $200 for 3 years, but it's been a while since I looked.

You have to prove to the inspecting ATF agent that you have "facilities" appropriate for doing business. That can be your home, but it can be more difficult to prove it.

And, if you don't do enough volume to convince ATF you're really "in business" they can deny your renewal.

So no, it's not possible for a "non business" any more. Bill Clinton effectively killed that.

xbox360
May 28, 2009, 04:15 PM
where do you apply to get one?

kingpin008
May 28, 2009, 04:16 PM
Yup. It's not something you can do for the fun of it - you must be able to show that you're turning a profit, or else they'll revoke your license. While you don't necessarily have to have a storefront, it is essentially a business license, with fees and taxes that must be paid.

Try visiting the ATF's website and reading their FAQ page. That should give you all the info you need.

bartp40
May 28, 2009, 04:16 PM
Look into Curios and relics...
The firearms have to meet a requirement to qualify...

Look at
www.cruffler.com

CRUFFLER.COM

presents

THE FINE ART OF BECOMING A CRUFFLER

So, you wish to join the ranks of the few, the proud, the Type 03 FFL holders. . . the CRUFFLERS???? Ok. Repeat after me, three times: "To live is to cruffle, to cruffle is to live. . . ."

Still with me? Good, because it's not that easy. Before we get into the procedures involved, let's take a moment to discuss what a Collector of Curios or Relics Federal Firearms License is, and more importantly, what it is NOT. (This is known as the Cruffler's Advice on Avoiding Enforced Stays at Club Fed.)

a) A Type 03 FFL is *NOT* a license to engage in a business of any kind. Use it as such, and not only do you risk forfeiture of your license, but also federal criminal charges. In other words, bad juju. What constitutes engaging in a business is often the subject of debate, but it boils down to intent and appearance. If your intent, upon the sale of a firearm is to enhance your collection, then you're fine. If your intent is to earn a living, or if it appears that you are doing so for that reason, you stand to place yourself in serious jeopardy.

b) A Type 03 FFL does *NOT* entitle you to purchase and/or receive any gun you want from any source. You may only purchase and/or receive those firearms that are either 1) demonstrably 50 years or more in age or 2) specifically mentioned in the Curios or Relics List published by the BATF. For further clarification on this point, we strongly suggest that you either follow the links to the List that are found in various places here at Cruffler.com, or download the compressed self-executing version of the List by clicking here

Good! You're still here. Now that we've educated you as to the pitfalls, we can get into the meat of why you're here - namely the steps you need to take towards the issuance of your very own Type 03 FFL.

1) The first thing you'll need to do is get the application forms. This can be accomplished by either calling the BATF Firearms and Explosives Licensing Center in Atlanta, Georgia (404-417-2750) (FAX: 404-417-2751) and requesting a Curio or Relic FFL application or by downloading the application forms in PDF format by clicking here.What? You don't have a reader for PDF files? Not a problem. You can get it (for free!) by clicking here

2) Read the instructions on the form.

3) Fill out two copies of the form, and double check it against the instructions.

4) You will need to mail the completed form as well as a check or money order for $30.00 to the BATF address listed in the instructions.

5) You will also need to mail a signed original of the form to the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) in your area. Failure to do so is a violation of federal regulation and may result in a non-issuance of your license or worse. If you are unsure of who the CLEO in your area is, call your local police or sheriff's office and politely ask. We also suggest you send the form with a brief cover letter, something to the effect of:

Dear Chief Localpolice:

Enclosed please find, as per federal regulation, a copy of my ATF Form 7CR. You are not required to take any action with respect to the enclosed form. If I can be of any service, or if there are any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me at the address above. With kindest regards, I remain

Very truly yours,


I.M. Gonnacollect

6) Assuming that you haven't a criminal record, and that you've completed the forms properly, you should receive your license within 4 to 8 weeks.

7) Once you receive your license DO NOT SIGN IT! Make about 50 - 60 copies, and put it away in a safe place. You'll need the copies to sign and send to the various businesses and individuals from whom you will be purchasing your collectable and historic firearms - this is the only way they will have proof that you are a licensee, and consequently they will not ship a firearm to you without having a signed copy on hand. Send your signed license copy with a cover letter, something to the effect of:

Dear Sir or Madam:

Enclosed please find a signed copy of my Type 03, Curio and Relics, Federal Firearms License. Please keep this on file so that we may do business in the future. Also,if you would send me a copy of your latest catalogue or sales flyer, and place me on the mailing list for same, I would be most appreciative. With kindest regards, I remain,

Very truly yours,


I.M. Gonnacollect

8) You will now need two things, a list of wholesalers and dealers to send your signed license copies to, and a "Bound Book" in which to keep the firearms acquisition and disposition records required by law.

For the Bound Book, we suggest that you contact RK Enterprises at 805 687-1416. Bob Kohn, the owner has put an enormous amount of effort into putting together a bound book and information package that is very useful in helping C&R licensees negotiate the somewhat convoluted recordkeeping rules. The package costs $23.95 + 4.95 S&H, and is worth every penny. If you're more interested in keeping costs down, you can try Brownell's, a full service gunsmith/dealer supply house, who also gives trade discounts to Type 03 FFL holders, but the language used in the Brownell's bound book is not as helpful as the RK Enterprises product.

For the dealer/wholesaler listing, we recommend subscriptions to two trade publications - The Shotgun News, and the Gun List. Shotgun News comes out three times a month, and the Gun List biweekly. Both of these contain thousands of advertisements for firearms and firearms related accessories.

And that's all there is to it. If you have any questions, your best bet is to call BATF at (404) 679-5040. However, we at Cruffler.com will be happy to try to answer your questions as well, feel free to email us!

TexasRifleman
May 28, 2009, 04:19 PM
Here is a link to the forms, you have to order them from ATF.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/5300instructions.htm#5310

Think about it very carefully before you start, you are playing with fire if you don't seriously intend to try to run a business.

mgkdrgn
May 28, 2009, 06:10 PM
How do you apply to get a FFL? is it possible for non business? I seen local FFL dealers like out of home. :confused: :confused: do you have to pay taxes? fee's? a year?? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Assuming you don't have any kind of a criminal background, your biggest hurdle is likely to be your state/local restrictions on running a firearms business (or any business for that matter) out of your home, not the ATF.

Look into it. Get ALL the state and local ducks in a row (zoning exemption, business license, license to collect state and local taxes, etc) in place FIRST, THEN apply for your FFL. If you can't clear the state/local with the "premises" you intend to use, then you will not get the FFL.

AND, you have to be comfortable with following "The Rules", be willing to allow for an inspection of your premises/paperwork on short notice, and be willing/able to keep detailed records for "as long as the wind blows and the grass grows". If ANY of that concerns you, don't bother starting the process.

PS ... just had my BATF interview ... agent said he would be recommending for approval. :-)

shaggy430
May 28, 2009, 06:51 PM
You have to be at least 21. I'm not sure you are.

Phatty
May 28, 2009, 07:04 PM
Didn't you just get your first gun two weeks ago??? And now you want to know how to get a FFL? I like your gun enthusiasm but maybe you should just slow down a bit.

SaxonPig
May 28, 2009, 07:09 PM
Most if not all of the following will apply when obtaining an FFL.

1. Business license from city. May require zoning (and parking) meeting. May require public meeting to let neighbors know what you plan to do at home. There may be lawsuits by unhappy neighbors.

2. Business license from county.

3. State tax certificate from state.

4. Deposit paid to state Tax Board against future tax collections.

5. File quarterly tax report. (Don't like doing your taxes every year? Now you do them every three months.)

5. Homeowner's insurance will refuse payment if you file a claim and didn't tell them you had a business in your home. If you tell them then your insurance cost will go up if they don't cancel you outright.

7. File papers with Worker's Comp Office that you have no paid employees.

8. Now apply to ATF for FFL. Pay $200 per year. Keep meticulous records of all acquisitions and dispositions. Do not make any mistakes. Expect to be inspected by an ATF agent at least every 24 months and maybe more often or at any time they feel like it. You surrender much of your privacy when you have an FFL.

9. Now you have strangers knowing you have guns and where you live. In fact, it likely becomes a matter of public record.

Some people get the idea having an FFL will save them money when they buy guns for themselves. An FFL is not for personal use. It's a license to do business so if you are not seriously interested in being in the gun selling business then forget it. Find an FFL who charges a reasonable fee to transfer your guns and let him deal with the headaches that come with the FFL.

shaggy430
May 28, 2009, 08:27 PM
Didn't you just get your first gun two weeks ago??? And now you want to know how to get a FFL?

xbox360 is a troll. Check his other posts- about half are closed and the other half are about the exact same thing.

Either that or he is 11 years old.

SaxonPig
May 28, 2009, 11:26 PM
Every year about this time kids who are out of school and bored sign up.

slamfirev10
December 3, 2009, 12:34 AM
xbox360 is a troll. Check his other posts- about half are closed and the other half are about the exact same thing.

Either that or he is 11 years old.

Every year about this time kids who are out of school and bored sign up.


haha

dogtown tom
December 3, 2009, 02:34 AM
How many of you that posted actually HOLD an FFL? :scrutiny:


To the OP, Try starting here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html Don't waste $$$ on one of those "Get Your FFL" kits you see advertised in shotgun news, etc. EVERYTHING you need to know about a Federal Firearms License is found at the ATF site.

TexasRifleman: You have to prove to the inspecting ATF agent that you have "facilities" appropriate for doing business. That can be your home, but it can be more difficult to prove it.
If you can legally operate a home business you will be approved. ATF regs make no mention of "appropriate facilities". They require the licensed premises to meet all local/county/state laws & regulations for operating a business from that licensed premises.


TexasRifleman:...So no, it's not possible for a "non business" any more. Bill Clinton effectively killed that.
An 01FFL has ALWAYS been a license for a dealer in firearms. Bill Clinton didn't change the law. What DID occur during his term in office was ATF began enforcing regulations already on the books. Primarily the requirement that the licensed premises be compliant with local/county/state laws and including HOA covenents and zoning restrictions. If business licenses or sales tax permits were required to operate a business, then the FFL had to follow that as well.


kingpin008 Yup. It's not something you can do for the fun of it - you must be able to show that you're turning a profit, or else they'll revoke your license. While you don't necessarily have to have a storefront, it is essentially a business license, with fees and taxes that must be paid.
There is no requirement that you turn a profit (it's very easy to lose money in the gun business for your first several years). It IS required that you operate as a business (not a hobby). ATF does not look at you profit & loss, bank account or invoices. What they will look at is the FFL "bound book" and 4473's to see if incoming guns = outgoing guns. ATF has no legal authority to ask what i charge or how much money I earned off my firearms business. They ARE allowed to check if I'm conducting business according to ATF regulations and can account for all firearms I've acquired & disbursed.


bartp40 ...Look at www.cruffler.com...
A word of advice.....Don't look at cruffler.com for current ATF regulations. That site hasn't been updated since February 2002. The ATF Licensing Center is no longer in Atlanta, but Martinsburg, West Virginia.


TexasRifleman Here is a link to the forms, you have to order them from ATF. http://www.atf.gov/forms/5300instructions.htm#5310
Outdated link as of this week. ATF redesigned their website and lotsa links are dead ends. New link to order a Form 7 is here: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5310-12-notice.html


mgkdrgn ...your biggest hurdle is likely to be your state/local restrictions on running a firearms business (or any business for that matter) out of your home, not the ATF.
Absolutely true.


SaxonPig: ...8. Now apply to ATF for FFL. Pay $200 per year
Uh, no. $200 for the first THREE years, $90 renewal fee for the next three year period.


SaxonPig:...Expect to be inspected by an ATF agent at least every 24 months and maybe more often or at any time they feel like it.
Agents (guns) are the armed law enforcement officers. You would only see them when you are being arrested. Compliance inspections, as well as FFL application processing are done by the Industry Operations Investigators (no guns). By Federal law, compliance inspections are limited to ONE PER YEAR. Of course if they find that the FFL has serious recordkeeping issues they are allowed followup compliance inspections more frequently. "Any time they feel like it" is an internet myth. One compliance inspection per year period. At a compliance inspection they review your bound book, 4473's and your business firearm inventory. If you have guns in inventory that are not recorded in your bound book-bad. Gun in bound book, not in inventory, no 4473-real bad.


SaxonPig:...You surrender much of your privacy when you have an FFL.
Only as far as compliance inspections. ATF can't go and look through your sock drawer without a warrant. An FFL has the same constitutional right as any other American.


SaxonPig:...9. Now you have strangers knowing you have guns and where you live. In fact, it likely becomes a matter of public record.
Yep. Although NOT REQUIRED, it is wise to have a large gun safe, alarm system, insurance and several attack poodles at the very least.




.

CoRoMo
December 3, 2009, 10:23 AM
Guys, DTom know his stuff. He beat me to the few corrections I would have made.

SaxonPig
December 3, 2009, 01:48 PM
Had an FFL for 9 years. Close enough?

OK, I erred on the cost.

Anyone from the ATF who can royally **** up my life is an agent in my book. Skip the semantics and bureaucratic distinctions.

Having an FFL and local business license makes your name and address a matter of public record. Absolutely you give up privacy.

dogtown tom
December 3, 2009, 02:53 PM
SaxonPig ...Having an FFL and local business license makes your name and address a matter of public record. Absolutely you give up privacy.

Newsflash. If you own property, pay taxes, get a speeding ticket, drive a car- any number of things can make your name and address "a matter of public record". It's no big deal unless you live in fear 24/7. My city/county/state of Texas does not require a business license, so no biggie there.

My having a Federal Firearms License faaaaaaaaaar outweighs not having one. I only wish I had applied twenty years ago.

SaxonPig
December 3, 2009, 05:44 PM
Of course property records and others are public, but my land deed doesn't scream GUNS IN THIS HOUSE! Anyone searching for a good burglary target might be interested in homes with... oh, I don't know... maybe an FFL operating there?

I see you advertising transfer services. You are obviously someone engaged in the business of selling guns. My comments are directed towards those who think having an FFL is fun and will let them buy guns for personal use cheaply. I had an FFL for 9 years and was also in the business of selling guns until the city banned all business licenses from resident addresses.

CoRoMo
December 3, 2009, 05:54 PM
Anyone searching for a good burglary target might be interested in homes with... oh, I don't know... maybe an FFL operating there?

I can't believe that has ever happened. Ever. I'd like to see an example of such an occurrence. The would be burglar searching for kitchen-table licensees to burglarize? I can't imagine it ever actually happening either.

glock36
December 3, 2009, 07:34 PM
go to this site http://www.atf.gov/forms/dcof/ and order all the ffl licensing forms and applications pluss informative publications, then submit them and wait your turn

M2
December 3, 2009, 07:59 PM
You don't need an FFL, what you need is a friend who is a FFL! :neener:

Still, I applied for my C&R a few weeks ago; it will be nice to be able to have the old milsurp rifles I want to get shipped directly to my door! :evil:

Cheers! M2

justashooter in pa
December 3, 2009, 09:52 PM
add me to the list of people going into the biz. we are in the middle of the process, and having no difficulties. have tax number, use permit, application submitted, working on state liscensing.

worried about burglaries? i'm more concerned for the burglar's safety than mine.

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