[ccw_steve]

Hey guys...just recently picked up a shiny new G19 for CCW. I have one good friend who insists that non +P ammo is the only ammo for CCW, and it is overkill to buy +P. He also claims that 9mm +P can over penetrate in certain situations, where non +P is less likely to do the same.

I know that +P ammo isn't going to hurt modern firearms, and I certaintly can't afford to shoot enough +P TO hurt my piece.

So, is there really any benefit to carry +P ammo vs non +P ammo?

[SaxonPig]

"So, is their really any benefit to carry +P ammo vs non +P ammo? " (sic)

Yes.

I load +P+ in my S&W 9mm.

Why? Because they don't make any bloody +P++.

[PT1911]

tell him/her there is no reason for anything more advanced than a BP revolver.. seeing as it will get the job done.. or a 25 acp is perfect for any situation... what more could you want?

+p =more speed=more power....

I am not following the logic that it is not for CCW purposes...Why did you go with a 9mm rather than a .380? same thing right? after all the projectile is the same diameter (roughly) hell.. why not go with the 9x18? it is even bigger around than the 9mm (9x19)

[ccw_steve]

Actually the reason I got a pistol in 9mm is because it's one of the few calibers I can afford to shoot often :D

Otherwise, I would have gone with a good 'ol 1911 in .45

Is there any truth in the statement that "9mm +P could overpenetrate"?

Now, every caliber known to man could overpenetrate under the right conditions, but I am asking whether or not an overpressure 9mm has a much higher chance of penetrating too far than a standard 9mm bullet.

Just a newbie trying to get some good info,

Thanks!

[ArchAngelCD]

The 9mm round is known to over penetrate. Increasing the velocity for an already fast round can increase the likelihood of over penetration. I shoot +P in my .38 Special but the standard pressure .38 Special isn't traveling at over 1100 fps.

Remington 124gr Golden Saber 9mm ammo is rated @1125fps, their 124gr Golden Saber 9mm +P is rated @1180fps. I don't think that small an increase in velocity will matter much at all.

Winchester 158gr LSWC .38 Special is rated @755fps, their 158gr LSWC .38 Special +P is rated @890fps. There's a difference that counts IMO. I don't think I would pay the extra money for the +P 9mm but with the .38 Special, the +P is a necessity IMO.

[Kind of Blued]

I would guess that your friend hasn't done much testing on ballistic gelatin.

I'm assuming that we're talking about JHPs here. 9mm FMJs have been documented to over penetrate, but carrying FMJs is ill-advised in any caliber, at least from me.

The general consensus is that 9mm, even loaded to +P pressures attains penetration which is on the lower end of the "acceptable" spectrum. This is generally in reference to FBI tests.

Here's some good stuff (http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php), which I think was written by our very own Zak Smith. It was the first thing that came up when Googling "FBI ballistics tests".

In my opinion, +P especially makes sense in shorter-barreled guns where you'll want to make up for that lost velocity if possible, but with 9mm, you could pretty much always use that extra bit of mustard.

[Pistol Toter]

All the above arguments is exactly why I carry a .357 mag with 125 grn jhp's or a .45 acp with 230 grn jhp. There is no doubt that either one will more than adaquately get the job done with little more fanfare than a drum roll.

[Noxx]

It seems to me, after much reading, that the accepted consensus in the community at large is that 9mm is only suitable in an SD round when loaded to +P or +p+.

That being said my preference is for .38JHP in +p.

[freakshow10mm]

I would never carry +P ammunition in any caliber. Stick with standard pressure rounds.

[edelbrock]

A lot of the good factory loaded defensive ammunition in 9mm is +P. I have a feeling there is a good reason for that. I carry +P in 9mm and .38.

[rcmodel]

Our +P is actually closer to what the 1908 Germans, and now NATO, thought the 9mm was supposed to be to start with.

With modern JHP ammo, over penetration is not the problem it is with FMJ.

Expansion decreases penetration. The more expansion, the less it penetrates.
The faster it is, the more likely it will expand.

rc

[psyopspec]

I carry +P in 9mm, and here's why:

-The reason we carry hollow points is that they can expand upon impacting tissue.

-In order to expand, hollow point rounds need velocity.

-By bringing more velocity to the table, +P rounds have a better chance of expanding.

This means a solid hit is less likely to overpenetrate; that expanding bullet that hit COM is most likely going to stay where it's at. Of course, there are 100 other variables at play here, but stay with me; +P or not, a miss is still a miss, and a graze will still continue past the target. So, +P and a solid hit COM = more damage, where standard velocity OR +P in a miss still equals a round that keeps going.

[David E]

I would never carry +P ammunition in any caliber. Stick with standard pressure rounds.

Why?

If you're worried about over penetration, then why not carry a .22 short?

[freakshow10mm]

I load all my ammunition to be SAAMI compliant and within SAAMI specifications. I do not load over pressure, which +P ammunition is over pressure.

Increasing pressure in an already max loaded cartridge is not gaining anything. If you need to tweak an extra few fps from a cartridge, time to move up to the next bore size where you get more velocity with less pressure.

I am definitely not concerned about over penetration so don't come at me with that crap.

[TehK1w1]

I don't worry about overpenetration myself. Considering how many studies have been done that show most shootouts result in 75% (at least) of the shots fired completely missing the intended target, I'm far more worried about rounds I'd miss with than rounds that hit and (possibly) "overpenetrate".

[David E]

SAAMI allows for +P and +P+ pressures. A standard 9mm 115 grain goes 1150 fps, a Corbon +P pushes the same weight @ 1350 fps without excessive pressure.

Some folks don't have the option to go "one bigger" caliber-wise, so they must select the best load for what they have. Me, I'll go with the Corbon in 9mm

.

[KBintheSLC]

He also claims that 9mm +P can over penetrate in certain situations, where non +P is less likely to do the same.

Not necessarily true. The hotter +P will hit with more energy and expand more rapidly that standard stuff. This results in faster energy transfer via more friction and resistance. I have seen many gel tests in which +P, particularly in 9mm, penetrate less than standard pressure loads.

Here is the deal with over-penetration... you are far more likely to hurt an innocent person by missing your target than you are by hitting them with a round that fully penetrates it. Worry about hitting, not over-penetrating. That being said, use the ammo that your gun works well with... for a Glock, that should not be too hard as mine eat everything.

[Steve C]

In all test and statitics the +P and +P+ is a better stopper than standard pressure ammo. Why would anyone want to rule out a more effective defense ammo out of hand. Doing that is effectively saying "don't carry the most effective ammo, after all its only you and your family's life and health that's on the line."

[mljdeckard]

I'm with freakshow. I always assume all of the shots I fire in a defensive situation will overpenetrate.

Cartridges were designed to perform at a certain velocity and pressure. When you start doodling with these numbers, you may get the intended results. You may not. I certainly WILL NOT assume that just because a cartridge comes from a factory that the bullet they matched to a +P round was designed to open at that pressure. This is yet another reason I only carry full-size pistols, I don't want to start loading with bullets other than the intended design.

If I wanted hotter performance out of a 9mm, I would get a .357 SIG. If I wanted hotter performance out of a .40, I would get a 10mm. If I wanted hotter performance out of a .45........I DON'T.

[kyo]

the one thing I noticed in that web page posted was the guy stated already. the heavier rounds have less of a problem expanding.
Well, imo the thing about +p is that there is more pressure(duh) but all that means is more recoil.
Lets look at the .45 chart for a sec. We see the Remington GS @185 grains and right under it the same but in +p. What is the difference in velocity? less than 10! only 9. now compare the data for those 2. the normal one did better in every aspect. Why is that? well, whats the point of having 1.5 times the pressure for a measly 9 more feet/second?
I keep 230 in my 45 for a reason, its slow, it has more mass to expand with, and the recoil is just fine, and I know its lighter than a 40, slightly more than a 9

[Blue Brick]

I use +P.

[Armed_Scientist]

I carry 127 grain +P+ hollow points, expansion is primarily a function of velocity with 9mm so it only makes sense to try to ensure as reliable expansion as possible.

Besides, more muzzle energy is always a good thing.

[mfcmb]

When I was choosing defensive rounds for my 9mm CCW handgun I did a lot of studying. One of the articles I read was by Massad Ayoob, who reported that in 9mm, 124 grain +P JHP ammo has performed best for LEOs over time in real life encounters (or something to that affect). I did more research focusing on performance tests of this load, and shot a variety of brands. Eventually I settled on Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P JHP for my CCW ammo. Speer Gold Dot has a good track record, has less muzzle flash then some of the other well-rated loads I shot, comes in the 124gr +P load, and works reliably in my gun (a Kahr CW9).

FWIW, YMMV

[Zundfolge]

Most +P ammo (if not all of it) are hollow point ammo.

+P+ hollow points are less likely to over penetrate than standard pressure FMJ.


The only reason to choose standard pressure SD ammo in 9mm is if you've got a gun that is not designed to take the higher pressures (a Rohrbaugh for example).

[The Lone Haranguer]

I have one good friend who insists that non +P ammo is the only ammo for CCW, and it is overkill to buy +P. He also claims that 9mm +P can over penetrate in certain situations, where non +P is less likely to do the same.


That is a bit of a blanket statement.

[Aka Zero]

I have some +p frangible, made for knocking steel plates over.

+p 124gr gold dots, for knocking people over.

More speed is always better.

[jfh]

freakshow10mm:

Does your 'never use +P' statement include 38 Special? Especially in light of the history of the SAAMI specs for this cartridge and the '+P' designations?

What about the European CIP spec?--i.e., there is no +P spec; 38 Special simply runs out <=21,750 PSI.

With modern 38 Special handguns?

(Note: I am not referencing the 38+P+ loads from the 70s, just historical / modern SAAMI specs.)

Jim H.

[Noxx]

Increasing pressure in an already max loaded cartridge is not gaining anything.

Jut as a point of procedure, the above is factually incorrect. Of course something is gained, velocity. While that gain is a matter of a diminishing returns vis a vis load pressure, let us remember that in all of our energy calculations the most volatile figure is velocity, which is always squared.

I agree with your assertion that simply moving up in caliber is the best way to achieve more energy on target, however I can't put a .45 in my jeans pocket, the same cannot be said of a 642.

So, IMO, if in any instance it is a given that the caliber may be fixed by other influences (A .38 fits in a pocket, grandad left you a .38 and you can't afford a new gun, etc, etc), in the caliber you have, more velocity = more energy on target = a greater chance that you go home.

Or more simply, all other things being equal, mo' faster is mo' better