[guy sajer]

The "deal" made by the S&W and the Clintonista's . I know this is a passionate topic for some of the members here .

Is it time to move on ?
The leadership at Smith that made the deal is out . The workers at S&W are Americans with families , mortgages etc . They had nothing to do with it .
What good would it serve you or the gun industry to put them out of business ? If S&W went out of business , it would be like winning the Super Bowl for Sarah and her crowd .

I'm trying to look at this from a logical as opposed to an emotional view point .

I didn't approve of it then or now but i think it's time we move on !

Mitch

[EJ]

I think S&W needs to be judged on their own merits now--

I personally perfer pre-agreement S&W firearms anyway-- and I have no problem purchasing them--

I haven't seen or heard a lot of great things about the "NEW" S&W(s) -- so my vote will be witheld -- I am willing to look at what they have and listen to what they say--

The next few years should be very interesting--

They have a free ride right now--With Bush--But that could change.
We could lose the presidency and part or all of congress in the next election.
S&W may or may not have to live up to the previous agrement based on a court determination of the lack of enforcement by Govt for four years as well as abandonment of both the letter of the contract as well as the spirit -- on both sides.

That may well free them up -- but attempts could be made by others to file similar cases then--

We are all still under attack-- S&W and us just have a short (Slightly) easier time of it right now--- That is of course unless you live in California or --(like me) Illinois with the new Dem Governor and state house--:rolleyes:

[Mr. James]

No.

The agreement lives.



Just waiting for President Hillary Clinton. :what:

[Preacherman]

I know the agreement is dormant, but it's not dead... and won't be until the court ruling, making it an order of court, is overturned. For that to happen, both parties to the agreement (the Feds and S&W) would have to go back to court, before the same judge, to mutually request that the court order be set aside. If the judge didn't like their request, he could refuse to do so... at which time the issue would have to be taken to a higher court on appeal. If the agreement is not set aside by a court, it remains in force, even though not observed (or required to be observed) by either party. If the anti's ever regain power, they could then reimpose it, and perhaps even sue S&W for not adhering to its terms.

I will only feel completely reassured about this situation when S&W initiates steps to have this agreement nullified in court.

[Coltdriver]

There is no way I am going to deny myself the worlds finest revolvers just because the clintonistas got into a game of patty cake with some brits.

That being said, the older S&W's are some of the highest quality guns ever made in mass quantities. That is my humble opinion and your mileage may vary.

I have a 940 and a Model 38 and they are keepers.

When I can afford it I am going to treat myself to one of those 3 inch model 27's from the performance center.

If we eliminate every good American gun maker because they get squeezed by the government, what will we defend ourselves with when the government comes to squeeze us???

[Mr. James]

Well, Coltdriver, there's no further comment needed. You won't be deprived, so go for it!!! Do you want affirmation? :p

We aren't out to eliminate any gun maker. But remember, the "Clintonistas" peddled this same agreement to all gunmakers. Only Smith & Wesson caved, agreeing to grotesque abrogations of not only their rights, as a legal "person" in the United States, but to the rights of unaffiliated gun dealers throughout the nation. Other gunmakers got together and said go urinate up a rope. Meanwhile, the S&W agreement stands.

No thanks, and no sale.

[Wildalaska]

S&W had a choice...cave in or go out of business..add to the mix British owners and voila, a probably legally enforceable agreement that Im sure isnt even binding on the new owners...

So judge them on their guns...

WildturntheothercheekAlaska

[beemerb]

Untill the agreement is declared void S&W will get no money from me.Plenty of used ones around. I just picked up a model 57 with all the T's and pined and recessed.
Have you looked at the junk they are putting out now?QC is down the tubes.
Bob

[KMKeller]

I won't yet say that it's time to move on. But I will say that when considering ultralight revos, I ended up purchasing an S&W 340 because I didn't feel safe trusting my family's lives to the other options out there. It's also my first revo and first Smith, so I plead paranoid ignorance...:D

[Wildalaska]

Have you looked at the junk they are putting out now?QC is down the tubes.

Other than the Smegma autos, S&W quality control is superb and in the rare event that something goes bad, they fix it no question asked immediately.

They are the best DA revolvers on the market bar none..period...

WildsometimespeoplesaysillythingsAlaska

[SteelyDan]

I buy S&Ws, I buy Rugers, I buy Levis, I take my kids to Disney movies, etc., etc. I also smoke, own an SUV, and drink alcohol. I hunt and fish, and eat at McDonalds.

One way or another, these choices probably offend 90% of the population. Ya know what, I really don't care.

I grew up believing that respect was a two way street. We may not agree on anything, but you respect my right to my beliefs, and I'll respect your rights to yours. As an example, I don't even smoke in smoking sections of restaurants if there's any chance it drifts into the non-smoking section.

Bottom line: there are way too many people telling me how I should run my life. I tuned that out a long time ago. I do the best I can, and I'm not proud of everything I've done, but overall it's worked out pretty well and I'm happy with how things have worked out.

One final thought. We've had more tragedy and horror stories than most families see in several generations. These events remind you of what is really important, and what is not. And what is NOT important is telling other people how they should run their lives on every little issue that comes along.

[AR-10]

The Smith and Wesson Agreement is not like "every little issue that comes along". It is about people with power using Fascist tactics to create government control over an industry. Control that Congress would not grant them by law.

It is not dead.

It is not about British or American owners.

It is not any less offensive than it was two years ago.

[Sarge]

I was major PO'ed when this happened, and hoped the American shooting public would send S&W a message. I believe they did, and it was duly noted. I am as unhappy as anyone else that this "agreement" still stands; it is nothing more than a sleazy trial lawyer trick to facilitate gun control legislation that the antis could not get Congress to pass. And why wouldn't they pass it? They knew they would be held accountable by the public. Maybe the manufacturer needed to be reminded of that.

Conversly, I have to remind myself that we are talking about individual freedoms here, whether the subject is choosing to own a firearm or choosing which firearm to own. You earned it, you pay taxes on it. You don't need me telling you to do with it after that, do you?

Whatever you do with it, I don't reckon you'll be spending much of it at K-Mart. Their empty stores will stand as mute testimony of what can happen when you pi$$ off the shooting public. My advice to any corporation or politician is to pay attention as those "Big K" signs coming down- you could be next.

[Zander]

S&W quality control is superb Oh, please...it is no such thing. I've never seen it so spotty. Frame-mounted firing pins that break [one 610 I witnessed lasted two shots], cylinders with bolt-stop cuts that allow sloppy lockup, machining marks on frames, MIM parts that fracture...the list goes on and on.

Spend your hard-earned dollars on pre-agreement S&Ws...that way you'll have a fighting chance of buying a decent revolver.

[Dennis Olson]

Bush 2 is NO FRIEND of gun rights....

[pax]

We didn't start the boycott in order to kill the company.

We started the boycott in order to kill the agreement.

The agreement is not dead yet. It is sleeping.

When I hear people say, "What good would it do to kill the company?," I know two things. I know that they didn't understand why we were boycotting to begin with, and I know that they are more interested in emotion (those poor people losing their jobs!) than they are in logic.

Until the agreement is dead -- not dormant, not disabled, but DEAD -- the boycott should continue. If it doesn't, all the hoorah to date has been wasted because the boycott will not have accomplished what it was set in place to accomplish.

pax

Vox populi, vox humbug. -- General Sherman

[Wildalaska]

Oh, please...it is no such thing. I've never seen it so spotty. Frame-mounted firing pins that break [one 610 I witnessed lasted two shots], cylinders with bolt-stop cuts that allow sloppy lockup, machining marks on frames, MIM parts that fracture...the list goes on and on.

Evidently you must be getting the "seconds :uhoh:

In the past three years I have, shot, handled, shipped, sold, stocked, seen and otherwise been involved with probably over 1000 S&W pistols and revolvers and again, other than Smegmas, I have seen NONE of the problems you mentioned.

If you hate S&W becasue of their business practices, fine, however, IMHO, as one involved in the industry and with NO STAKE whatsoever in S&W, you post is untrue.

WilddefenderofthetruthAlaska:

[Jason Demond]

Only pre-agreements S&W's for me!

[Zander]

If you hate S&W becasue of their business practices, fine, ... IOW, your anecdotal experiences lead you to say that my anecdotal experiences are fabrications.

That about it?

I don't 'hate' S&W the entity nor do I 'hate' the management. Such emotion is reserved for the sociofascists who fostered and intend to perpepuate an agreement designed to guarantee the institution of fascism in the firearms industry. That the products produced post-agreement [including those from the now-euphemistically titled "Performance Center'] are inherently flawed for strictly political purposes is a matter of fact.

S&W continues to struggle; IMO, that is a good thing. If they formally denounce the agreement, I'll be the first in line to buy new products. Otherwise, I'll extend my boycott and buy used S&W products which speak to the real quality of bygone days.

If you disagree [again?], I'd urge you to read the *entire* agreement and give us a reason why a portion of S&W's profits should be shunted to virulently anti-gun efforts. That, too, is a matter of fact.

It's all in the fine print...and has little to do with your dealer's desire to vend products.

[westex]

Did it freeze over and I missed it?

[Standing Wolf]

I'm not buying new Smith & Wesson products until a.) I can buy firearms without integral locks, and b.) the agreement the company signed with the Snopes Clinton-Liar Gore régime has been declared null and void. I don't do business with anti-Second Amendment bigots.

[Wildalaska]

IOW, your anecdotal experiences lead you to say that my anecdotal experiences are fabrications.


Well yes, because obviouslyyou have an axe to grind with S&W, and your reports fly in the face of what I have observed as aforesaid, and what has generally been reported about S&W quality on this and other Boards...


It's all in the fine print...and has little to do with your dealer's desire to vend products.

Dealers vend what their customers ask for. If nobody wanted S&W, they wouldnt sell. Unfortunately for the irrational S&W haters, they do.

BTW, I hate the locks. I also hate them on Remington, Sakos, Tauruses...

WildalwaysreasonableAlaska

[AR-10]

Is "irrational S&W haters" a generic term to describe all who prefer not to help this company profit at this time?

You do not address the agreement except to say that you doubt it can be enforced. That is typical of all the issue-avoiding Smith defenders. You seem to be saying that you are providing the gun community a service by providing them with the product they want. You would do better to digest the agreement and then either debunk the arguments against it or stop selling them. As a dealer you should at least try to be informed. I have spoken to half a dozen dealers about this issue face to face and at length. They all have the same vague opinion you express. They never made any fact based statements to back up their assertions that the deal is off. In each case I ended the conversation realizing that money was clouding their judgement.

The quality of product is a side issue, not the focus of the discussion. I did see two threads in this forum complaining of poor quality. Apparently they are not all perfect. The Hong Kong police just rejected a shipment of 1,000 revolvers. They feel that 20% of them are defective.

The truth regarding quality lies somewhere between your perception and that of Zander's. Calling him a "Smith Hater" with an "axe to grind" is not fair or acurate.

Address the issue. The Agreement. If it is dead, prove it. If it won't affect me, prove it.

[Gewehr98]

I'll continue to collect only pre-agreement, pre-save-us-from-ourselves-internal-lock S&W handguns. Didn't see so many tears when other well-known U.S. firearms manufacturers were threatened with extinction - H&R, High Standard, and the poor suffering employees of the now-defunct Raven, Jennings, Lorcin, Bryco paperweight company. Doesn't your heart bleed for them, too?

Businesses fold and reconstitute, for good reasons or bad. Were S&W to crumple, life would go on.

And, oh, those Sigmas. Ick. Never knew a gun would malfunction right out of the box so quickly. The 22A is unfortunately right there with it in the cheesy plastic category.:scrutiny:

Mike, you've been strangely quiet about this thread? I'm real tempted to insert your link about the agreement here.

[guy sajer]

Not being one to start a controversial thread and then bale , this is about what I expected when I started this thread . Thank you for the feedback from both sides .

AR you are correct .The "fact " is that the deal is not off . I've always thought of myself as an informed dealer . I guess I'm a little biased ? I have kept a copy of the several times amended "agreement" in my desk since it was released . I have digested it . As written , I would doubt that any dealer in the country would have been able to abide by it and would have declined to sell S&W . When it was first announced , we as well as most dealers denounced it and still do . It was maddening to say the least . After cooling off a little , we decided to leave it up to our customers whether or not to drop Smith . If that's wrong in your opinion , then that's fine . It's your opinion . You can refuse to sell S&W in your store . I respect your right to run your business the best way you see fit .

There will always be some that will stick to their boycott principles . I respect that . It's your choice . I will say that it probably has affected S&W monetarily . Their sales/profits do continue to rise though . But , I'm sure they would like your business .

As a dealer with bills to pay and a desire for growth as well as a responibility to our 20 employees to make a profit in order to pay them , yes money is important . That's why people start their own business . To make money and be independent as well as control our own destiny . We put up with a lot of crap from the govt and anti's to do this . That's the path we chose and we like what we do . Is money clouding our judgement , I don't believe so . Money is one of the tools we use to grow our business . Could we continue to grow without S&W ? Sure . But , our family store is bent on customer service . We try to carry the products that customers are asking for as long as it's safe we don't have service problems with it . If this makes me "typically clouded" then I guess you're right .

Smith is making a good product based on our experince . I'm the one that writes the letters inserted with malfunctioning guns going back to the mfg for service . In '02 , I can remember maybe 5 guns going back to S&W out of maybe 300 sold .

I have yet to see a MIM parts failure on a Smith . Several years ago we did have a thumb safety snap on a Kimber . We did have a 625 break a firing pin 3 or4 years ago though . Obviously , some of you have seen problems .We are not experiencing them .

As for the new lock , I don't like it . I'm not sure why . Most of the customers don't seem to mind though . We haven't had any malfunctions caused by it though . More and more companies are using one . I'll add H&K and Springfield Armory to the list of internal lock users started earlier here . We haven't had any lock failures so far on the brands mentioned .

Respectfully ,
Mitch English
www.oldeenglishoutfitters.com

[Shooter 2.5]

Yes, it's time to move on and give Smith and Wesson our support. The boycott worked and it's a new company.

The agreement was the same as if a parent gave a ransom to kidnappers of a child. No difference whatsoever.

I also think the people who continue the hatred of S&W and still buy Chinese Communist made firearms a bunch of hypocrites.

The last time I looked, my 22A isn't made from plastic which is one of the reasons I will never buy a Glock.

[Gewehr98]

Look at the rebound buffer, which holds the guide rod in place. By 200 rounds, you'll see significant wear.

And how about that flexible plastic trigger? Yee-Haa! It's why I sold mine and bought a Browning Buckmark.

Now, about us hypocrites.

Don't buy anything at WalMart. Ever. Your blue blood would just plain curdle were you to find out where stuff comes from in that store. That computer you're using to view THR? Look inside the case sometime.

And for Gawd's sake, don't forget to stay away from any of the following gun purchases:

Mauser rifles - evil Nazi things
Luger pistols - again, evil Nazi things
Walther P-38 - yup, more of the above
Japanese Arisaka rifles - Hey, weren't they part of the Axis Powers?
Italian Carcano rifles - Oops, another evil Axis power...
Russian AK variants - designed by Soviets, for world domination.
Russian SKS variants - Oh, my, another evil gun from a bad country!
Russian Mosin-Nagant - Soviet workhorse.
Russian Makarov - Evil little communist handgun
Russian Tokarev - Another evil little Communist handgun
Czech VZ-52 rifle - Hmm, they were Warsaw Pact, no?
Czech CZ-52 pistol - Warsaw Pact handgun with an armor-piercing bullet, too!
Chinese SKS - Red Chinese communist gun, pure evil.
Chinese AK variant - definitely reeks of evil.


Now, let's put the shoe on the other foot. I'm sure that some Native Americans have no great love for the Trapdoor Springfield. We were so nice to all those American Indians by showing them our Springfields. Too bad is was mostly just the muzzle end.

Some Southerners would have nothing to do with a Spencer carbine, and some Northerners would thumb their noses at a Whitworth.

There are German immigrants who loathe the Springfield after WW1.

The Koreans at No Gun Ri may have suffered the ultimate fate at the hand of the Garand or M1 Carbine.

The Palestinians probably feel that the M-16 was one of the most hateful things the US could have supplied Israel. Same goes for our Vietnamese-American community.

How about Kent State and the M14? Could these people have a legitimate reason to dislike a certain weapon?

Now, which oppressive government would that be? And we're the big kids on the block these days. We Americans are no angels, even as a military member I'm not that brainwashed.

Looking elsewhere in my gun safes...

Oh, yeah, those gol-durned Browning designs! Winchester lever guns, Colt 1911, Remington Model 8, Browning Auto 5, Browning BAR, you name it! My Lutheran upbringing said that Mormonism was an abomination. I must have evil Browning guns by default.


Oops, there's a well-worn Kahr K9 in a Bianchi holster in my car as I type this. I don't have any urge to join the Unification Church. But I do very much like Justin Moon's little 9mm, and will use it to defend my life.

Moral high ground, eh? I'll continue my hypocracy, thank you very much. :scrutiny:

[Shooter 2.5]

Well, you said it better than I did.

A bunch of people who complain about S&W and ignore all the other agreements of the gun companies. Thanks for the list. I had a similar list on Free Republic.

Wow, the 22A has a plastic trigger like a Colt 1911. Oh my god, I better sell the thing right now. Gee, thanks for the warning. So tell me, when can I expect it to break? A couple thousand more rounds? By the way, I tossed the buffer out a long time ago. It's been fine without it.
None of my centerfires have plastic.

You forgot to add Para-Ordnance,[Socialist country] Ruger, [Hi cap mag agreement] Taurus[Smart gun agreement] and Colt[Smart gun agreement] to the list.

[guy sajer]

Mr Mauser ,
No , I am not bleeding . But , thanks for your concern . Yes , life will go on .

It's been a long time , but if memory serves me H&R and High Standard went out of business because they chose to alienate the dealer by selling huge quantities of merchandise to "Big Box" stores at cut prices . Eliminating their best salesman , the dealer . They were being sold for price alone . When the Boxes got into some economic trouble late 70's early 80's and stiffed the small gun companies as well as other companies that supplied them with goods , for money due , they had no where to go . No money , bankrupt . Remington came close to the same end several years ago with K-Mart .

As for the paperweight companies , they were bankrupted by the legal system from our country's liberal left needing someplace to put the blame for their own negligence . Whether it be a careless mother leaving a loaded Raven (I think) in her nightstand so her teenage daughter's friend could access it and then shoot the daughter carelessly . Then the mother sues the dealer in PA and Raven because they didn't teach her to be a responsible gun owner . Yes , it's terrible . But we continue to be a nation where some will not take responsibility for their own lives or mistakes they make .
They also failed because in my opinion they made an inferior product that not only was unreliable but prone to breakage . Whether it's a gun company or widget company , if you make a shoddy product , it will eventually catch up .

S&W makes a good product. Their leadership made a bad decision/mistake . That leadership is gone . We are willing to give anyone a second chance in most cases . (No not an inmate on death row in Il) . If you chose not to , I respect that .

Your continued buying of used firearms is still a help to all of us in the industry . I'll assume you buy ammo , holsters , cleaning stuff . Thank you .

I think the gun industry has finally caught on to the fact that each other is not the competition as much as the anti-crowd . This I believe is shown by the gun industry with the industry organization NSSF www.nssf.org and Heritage Fund www.hsshf.org Please check them out . There's a lot of good info there .

Yes the 22A has a "plasic" grip . But the grip frame underneath is an alloy . Take the grip screws off and remove the grip and you'll see. As far as malfunctions with the 22A , we sell about 60 - 80 a year . I have returned maybe 2 in a year that actually had problems . The few complaints we had were mostly related to poor ammo quality and poor maintainence . I had one customer tell me the rifling was coming out of his barrel . He was using cheap promo ammo like Thunderbolt/Wildcat which pushes at high velocity and uses only a thin wax coating as lube . The rifling was full of lead . It was caked from one end to the other . When we cleaned it for free for him and explained the problem , he was satisfied enough that he bought a new 686 .

Thank you for your opinion .

Mitch

[Blackhawk]

The leadership at Smith that made the deal is out .And so is the leadership in the government that made that deal.

HOWEVER, neither the government nor S&W has repudiated the deal nor have they rescinded it. If and when that happens, it will be time to move on.

[Gewehr98]

Were Ruger and Colt to go Tango Uniform from their own corporate decisions.

Nature abhors a vacuum. It's not like somebody else wouldn't make a Single Action Army revolver, 1911, or AR-15. And I seriously doubt that the demise of the Mini-14 is gonna shake up the gun-buying public.

My 22A was a total miscarriage, in both fit, finish, and function. Hence my dropping it like a bad habit. Hopefully, S&W got their fecal matter collected with regards to that gun. I love the S&W Model 41, so it's not like they don't know how to make a decent rimfire autopistol.

Some feel stronger than I do. Two of the bigger gun dealers in my area refuse to carry S&W products, and they were moving quite a bit of product for those folks earlier. Having my own FFL, I understand that this represents a good chunk of potential income for those dealerships. Pretty strong convictions.

[Mike Irwin]

Anyone who knows me should know my stance on this issue fairly well, by now.

The fact that S&W is under new management doesn't matter.

If you stopped eating at an old restaurant because the kitchen was filthy and unsanitary, then it changed hands, but the kitchen remained filthy and unsanitary, would you go back just because it changed hands, or would you wait for the new managment to make proactive steps to solve the problems at hand?

Anyone who says that the boycott was about internal safety/locking devices (guns have had internal safety devices for well over 100 years) or smart gun technology (that's been an ongoing technological challenge for nearly 50 years) is missing the point.

Anyone who believes that it's OK to buy S&W just because it's an American-owned company again, instead of British owned, is also missing the point.

The boycott has always been about a company agreeing to what essentially was a government end-run around the Constitutional process for passing laws in the United States. What the Clinton administration couldn't get through legislation it got by making promises that it immediately broke.

The boycott has also always been about a company adopting a mechanism by which its enemies, OUR enemies can pretty much gain operational control of the firm. Does anyone really want ATF or the cities that have been trying to sue gun manufacturers, the ones who have pretty uniformly adopted serious firearms restrictions within their borders, controlling production, marketing, and sales of firearms based on their political agendas?

The boycott has also always been about presenting a unified face to the rest of the gun industry as a way of saying "if you choose to do the same thing, your sales will also go into the toilet because we won't buy your guns either."

Unfortunately, at the moment, other manufacturers no longer have to worry about this, as it seems that the majority of American gunowners have apparently make the mistake of "American Owned = AOK!"

As others have noted, the agreement isn't dead. The language of the agreement makes that very clear -- that once S&W signed it, it had the force of both a contract AND a court order.

Even though the it's not being enforced now, that's not the point. Many contracts and court orders go unenforced for years. Until they're enforced.

That, then, is the danger here. That 2 or 4 or 6 years from now, when a ground-shift happens in the American political scene and the Democrats again seize power, that they'll dust off the agreement and demand to the letter enforcement.

By sticking its head in the sand (Bob Scott's recent interviews make it perfectly clear that that is what the company has done) and refusing to address the issue, S&W's doing nothing more than endangering their own business, and our rights.

[AR-10]

Mitch

My comments regarding dealers and their attitude were not directed at you. If you are aware of the full impact of the agreement and wish to sell them because your customers want them, that is fine as long as you do not mislead them. I respect your decision to let your customers choose what firearms they will buy from you.

That is a large part of my disgust with the Smith Agreement. They are willingly putting themselves in the position of telling you what rifles I can buy from you.

My bewilderment concerning local dealers is that the ones I have discussed the agreement with adamently state that the contract is null and void. They are telling all their customers who ask the same thing. It is not true. They are misinformed and prefer to stay that way, or they are lying for temporary profit. One gentleman became quite irate when I would not accept his stock reply (the deal is gone) without a rational explaination of how that could be.

I have yet to see one good reason to stop boycotting Smith. It has nothing to do with hatred of a company or a brand name. It has everything to do with my love of semi-auto rifles and a desire to see the gun industry remain healthy for decades to come.

[guy sajer]

Thank you for an intelligent , adult reply . It's refreshing and I understand your viewpoint .

As I stated , until such time as we are pressed to make a decison , we'll leave it up to our customers . They are the reason we are doing so well (7,000 guns a year retail out of 1 store )in a depressed economy. We are located 20 min north of Dayton , OH on a back country road . It's hard to believe that we can be successful when the key standards in business is location and location . We have great customers !

I can totally understand your attitude towards dealers that try and BS you . We were raised that honesty is best . Customers will find out if you're not .

Mitch

[44Brent]

I saw an article "somewhere" which suggested S&W has, and continues to turn over customer lists to the BATF. Unfortunately, I sent in my registration cards to S&W when I bought a revolver and pistol.

[fallingblock]

As far as I'm concerned, by not repudiating 'the agreement' the new owners are still playing both sides of the street. For what it's worth, my experience with the 22A suggests that one would be wise looking elsewhere for a .22!:rolleyes:

[guy sajer]

Brent ,
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it . ATF doesn't need lists from the manufacturers . The ffl holders keep the list for them . All new and used guns received and sold .

[Mike Irwin]

One thing I forgot to mention...

I generally avoid gun dealers who are selling new S&W firearms.

I patronize those who have dropped the line.

These guys get the lion's share of my business these days. We see eye to eye.

Virginia Arms, Manassas, Virginia (http://www.virginiaarms.com/)

[guy sajer]

Fair enough . Whether you are buying from me or VA in Manassas you are helping the industry . Thank you for your support . It all counts .
We'll leave the light on . Just in case .

[AR-10]

It serves a purpose for me.

I can sleep at night knowing I have not compromised my morals or helped to fund anti-gunners.

You read the whole agreement and then do what you want. I do what I need to.

[Mike Irwin]

Sort of like writing your Congresscritters serves no purpose?

Or when the time rolls around voting serves no purpose?

The only reason the purpose has largely been robbed at this point in time is because of far too many people either being misguided on S&W's current stance and the agreement's status, or for all their lip service, they really just don't care about the Second Amendment.

[JohnBT]

What's an S&W ;)

John

[buzz_knox]

Well yes, because obviouslyyou have an axe to grind with S&W, and your reports fly in the face of what I have observed as aforesaid, and what has generally been reported about S&W quality on this and other Boards...

Go search TFL and you'll find numerous nightmare stories about S&W quality control, including weapons coming out of the Performance Center (where everything is "handmade") with grossly defective barrels.

As for the agreement, it is not dead; the other parties can always enforce it even if the feds don't (ya'll do remember that it was signed by other muncipalities, cities and states, don't you?); and it was not forced upon S&W. It was signed against advice of counsel in order to get preferential treatment in procurement contracts, one of the most ignored aspects of the agreement. S&W wanted the preferential treatment, so it sold us out. End of story.

[pax]

The boycott worked and it's a new company.
The boycott was not started in order to make S&W "a new company," nor to make it "an American company," nor "to drive the company out of business."

The reason the boycott was put in place was to kill the agreement. What happens to the company is of no consequence in the long run. It is what happens to the agreement that will matter.

The agreement is not dead. It is dormant.

If we stop the boycott now, the agreement will wake up as soon as conditions are most favorable to anti-rights people and least favorable to RKBA people. And then it will bite us and maybe devour us -- and it will be our own fault, because we didn't kill it dead when we had the chance.

It is too bad that people who didn't make the important decisions at the company have lost their jobs over this. But they will have lost their jobs for no reason whatsoever, if the agreement does not die.

We owe it to them, and to ourselves, to continue the boycott until the agreement is dead.

pax

Consider the postage stamp: its usefulness consists in the ability to stick to one thing until it gets there. -- Josh Billings