[agtman]

... about stopping power.

Okay, now that I've got you're attention ... :D

Below is the link to my Range Report on Double Tap's 10mm defensive loads, which use Remington's 165gn & 180gn Golden Saber hollow-points.

DT specifies that from a 4.6" barrel (Glock 20), the 165gn 10mm load does 1425fps/744fpe, while the 180gn 10mm load does 1330fps/707fpe. This is powerful, accurate, well-made ammunition using high quality HP bullets.

The Report includes:

* three 10mm autoloaders

* 450rds of high performance ammo

* wet phonebooks

*denim jeans

* fresh beef :what:

* lots of photos :)

* more fun than one human should have on a sunny afternoon. :scrutiny:

Range Report:

http://bren-ten.com/agtman-delta/id6.html

Double Tap's 10mm line-up can be seen here (click on "products"):

http://www.doubletapammo.com/main_site/index.html

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/73942/agtman_g20.jpg

FYI.

[tlhelmer]

That is amazing! How do they stay within SAAMI or do they?
Any idea?

Great report.

[Sean Smith]

The owner of the company has stated that all of their ammo is within SAAMI pressure specs for 10mm Auto. They have special powders custom-made for loading their 10mm ammo.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40507&highlight=10mm

[Trisha]

Great, just great - now I won't be able to think about anything beyond giving in and doing that Delta Elite project that's been on hold!

Thanks!

Trisha

[agtman]

Thanks.

And Sean's correct.

But not only do McNett's (Double Tap's) loads stay within SAAMI specs, the velocities are apparently unaffected by altitude due to this special powder he uses. That's comforting to know if you're packin' a 10mm into potential bear or mountain lion country at the higher elevations.

Also, keep in mind that those velocity/energy stats for the 165gn & 180gn 10mm Golden Sabers are chrono-ed from the G20's 4.6" tube.

Two of the three pistols used in my Range Report have 5" barrels: the Delta and the S&W 1006. McNett says that with a 5" barrel you can expect a 25-30fps gain over the "box-flap" velocities. Taking the lower figure, the stats on the 165gn GS load should be "only" 1450fps/770fpe, and for the 180gn GS load 1355fps/734fpe. :cool:

So, Trish, get going on that Delta Elite project! ;) Good luck with it.

For those 10mm fans who enjoy their bullets "light-n-fast," Double Tap also offers a 135gn Nosler HP @ 1600fps/768fpe :eek: (again, as measured from the G20's 4.6" barrel).

But it gets better. McNett then shot this same 135gn load from a 6" KKM barrel and got 1785fps/955fpe. :what:

And who needs a .38 Casull? :rolleyes:

As Governor Arnold might say: "I don't vant a Pulse rifle in der 40-watt range, I vant a 10mm to pump me up!" :D

:)

[tlhelmer]

Why are you guys doing this? You are pushing me towards buying a 10mm.:uhoh:

[BigG]

Can't resist showing you my 10mm No. 001. :D

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=551419

[1911Tuner]

Always kinda liked the idea of a 1911 pistol mated with the ballistics
of my favorite revolver caliber, the .41 magnum. I don't own one,
and I could never figure out why....

Ah well...maybe in another life.

Tuner

[Fatcat]

the velocities are apparently unaffected by altitude due to this special powder he uses.

Holy crap, a powder that actually breaks the laws of science. Amazing. :D

But hey, I might have to add a 10mm to my want list.

[tetchaje1]

Holy crap, a powder that actually breaks the laws of science. Amazing.

Actually, McNett is well-known, and well-respected on internet discussion forums for his nuclear 10mm loads, and has been for quite sometime. His loads and data are no-joke and no B.S.

[Bren]

Nice report.

The 10mm is my favorite "one call, does it all" , auto cartrige. :D

[keederdag]

I have a series 80 (I thinK) stainless Delta Elite 10mm. God, I havent shot it in forever. Anyone know approx worth?:confused:

[c_yeager]

I have no doubt about the quality of the gentlemans loads. But, i think fatcats point is that alttitude will effect the performance of ANY load to some degree. Thinner air will always have an effect on combustion. This is a fact and cant really be circumvented. Now the problem could very well be MINIMIZED through various measures but, not completely eliminated. Saying otherwise is simply stating an untruth.

[agtman]

Well, since McNett mods GT's 10mm Reloading forum, it wouldn't be too hard to ask him directly about his research and testing on the effects of altitude on the performance of his loads. God knows he's done quite a bit. He strikes me as very methodical and cautious, not someone given to hyperbole.

My remark on the altitude issue was a paraphrase from memory of a comment of his in a post on GT, so it's probable he meant that effects of altitude had been minimized by the powder he uses, not eliminated totally.

Anyway, his company makes great 10mm ammo. :)

BigG, that's a nice looking 10mm/40 combo Colt!

[forquidder]

Enquiring minds want to know. I was under the impression that gun powder contains all the ingredients to combust WITHOUT any outside oxygen. Think about it. As soon as the round is touched off the brass case seals the chamer end of the combustion chamber and the bullet seals the barrel end. The miniscule amount of air that is contained between the two would have negligable effect on combustion.
One effect I could see from a higher elevation is a lower frictional coefficient against the bullet AFTER it leaves the barrel. One comparison to this would be that it's supposedly easier to hit a home run out of Mile High Stadium than it is to hit one out of Yankee Stadium. Inform me on this one.

[wardog]

Must....resist.....urge......for.....a.....10mm. (Especially after buying 3 handguns this week.)

K-Y Imports has S&W 1076's for $359 (+$20 for night sights). I suspect these are police (probably FBI?) trade ins.

Anyone have any thoughts on these? I have heard that 10mm beats up on guns. Would a used Smith 10mm be a good idea? (I love my 6906 that I got used.)

Thanks.

[agtman]

S&W's 10XX-series pistols are built like tanks. I can't recommend them highly enough. Robust, reliable and quite accurate "out-of-the-box." Smoothing up the trigger only shrinks the groups.

Here are mine:

S&W 1076.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/73942/agtman_sw1076.jpg

S&W 1006.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/73942/agtman_sw1006.jpg

You may want to do a Search for posts from other Smith 10mm owners. :)

:cool:

[tlhelmer]

AGTMAN,
Which of the two smiths do you prefer? I am intereted in the attributes of both models. Do you also own a Glock 20?

[agtman]

That G20 pictured in my first post with the DT ammo boxes is mine. :)

I like both Smiths but truthfully, for CCW use, the 4.25" "Commander-sized" 1076 is hard to beat. I've owned a Sig 220, and while the stainless 1076 is heavier, it's thinner in the slide area and seems to lay flatter.

The 5" slide and barrel of the 1006 gives you a longer sight-radius and, according to MCNETT, a 25-30fps increase in your load's fps/fpe stats. The frame dimensions of both guns are the same, except that the 1076's decocking lever is on the frame, same as a Sig.

The 1006 is the perfect platform for long range sessions with full-strength 10mm loads, like these:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/73942/agtman_sw1006v2.jpg

:cool:

[tlhelmer]

Thanks!

This desire for a 10 mm is tearing me apart.:banghead:

[Jeff OTMG]

How about a 10mm at OVER 2400 FPS!!!!!!!!!! This is destructive. A 10 POUND roast, or was a 10 pound roast.
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/Image10.jpg

this is the hamburger that is left after the impact
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/Image12.jpg

RBCD of course and yes, everything is loaded to SAAMI standard pressures.

[Bergeron]

Wow. What is the weight of the 10mm bullet that goes 2400 fps? And what gun did it come out of?

[BigG]

10mm that goes 2400 FPS: Probably a .405 Winchester. :eek: ;)

[agtman]

RBCD's 10mm load is 77gn Total Fragmenting Soft-Point (TFSP) bullet that's doing 2420fps/1015fpe. :what:

Not surprisingly, the 10mm produces the highest fpe in RBCD's line-up.

As far as I can tell, the next closest, in terms of muzzle energy, is a .45 acp load topped with a 90gn TFSP that does 2036fps/828fpe.

You might do a Search if you want more info on RBCD, as there's been a lot of debate about their ammo here. Very controversial.

HTH. :)

[Lennyjoe]

I've come to the conclusion that when I get a 10mm its gonna be a Smith.

Thought about the Witness but like the Smith better. Its on the list of "Must Have"

[tlhelmer]

I am going with the Glock 20. I already have a Glock 21 and enjoy shooting it. 15 + 1 rounds of 10 mm is hard to beat. :cool:

Now I need to sell a gun to get the money to buy the 10mm.:uhoh:

[Black Snowman]

I wish CZ made the CZ-97B in 10 MM. That would be sweet.

[Jeff OTMG]

Bergeron, that is a 77gr slug. I am going to say that it is a Glock 29. The barrel length is listed at 3.78" as is the .45 ACP info and I know that the 3.78" barrel for the .45 was on a Glock 30. Glocks do tend to give higher velocities due to the polygonal rifling. The RBCD design and jacket seals and glides well in Glock barrels.

For more info check out the latest offering from Marshall and Sanow, 'Stopping Power'. Chapter 19 is dedicated to RBCD and Sanow ranks some of the RBCD loads with a Fuller Index percentage of OSS of 99%.

Actually the .44 mag is MUCH more powerful than the 10mm.
10mm 77 gr. TFSP 2420 fps / 1015 flbs
44 Mag. 110 gr. TFSP 2430 fps / 1445 flbs

The .44 mag is shooting a heavier bullet at a higher velocity (4.00" barrel) and still has over 1000 fpe at 100 yards. with an 7.5' or 9" Redhawk or 8" S&W barrel it must be closing on 3000 fps. I have not tried the 10mm out of my Bren Ten, but it would probably be close to 2600 fps. Either way, it still isn't a .44 mag.

For pure veolcity the 9x23 is king, BUT from a 5" barrel:
9 X 23 Win 60 gr. TFSP 2625 fps / 751 flbs (this is a more recent load and NOT the one listed on their website. They sent me a PDF with the new ballistics tables last week.)

Of course I don't count the .454 Casull with a 125gr slug at 2825 fps/2400 fpe, that is a 9.5" barrel. I can see what that extra length does to velocity.

[agtman]

Jeff OTMG:

The 2001 copy of M&S' "Stopping Power" I have doesn't list the RBCD .44mag, 9x23 or 454 Casull loads. (See Chapter 19, p. 150, Tables 19-2 & 19-3). That's where the stats I posted came from.

And among RBCD's autoloading calibers, the 10mm exhibits the highest energy rating. :)

[MCNETT]

Agtman has it correct. DoubleTap's latest lots are MINIMALLY effected by elevation and humidity. You cannot break the laws of physics, but you can find ways to minimalize variations.
-Mike

[lawcox]

The Glock 20 is our issue weapon at my department, one of the last to still carry the 10mm. I've never worried one bit about it being enough. 46 rounds of 10mm is pretty good to carry around.
Firm grip is a must; no limpwristing.
In the winter, I've even been able to carry it concealed off duty in a Fobus holster and a heavy coat.

[Tamara]

Gee, and here I thought that those 155gr Gold Dots from Georgia Arms were perfectly adequate.

Now I find they're declasse. :uhoh:

[Jeff OTMG]

agtman, I see. I thought that you were at the www.rbcd.net website getting the info and I should have realized that this is the Handguns: Autoloaders forum.....DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess the Desert Eagle would would qualify the .44 mag as an auto cartridge, but that would REALLY be stretching it.

RBCD is constantly coming up with new loads and mixes. Last week they emailed me a new ballistics table that some of the loads on their website don't match up with. The loads not listed in Stopping Power were probably not available in 2000-2001 when Sanow was doing the testing for the book. In fact I didn't even find the stuff available for sale to the public until 1999. All the LE stuff was available for years.

[agtman]

BBT.

Let's get serious - with some t-shirts. ;)


For 10mm fans (and those who secretly want to be), check out:

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=193696

[zahc]

I can't figure out why altitude would effect velocity.:confused:

[Marcus]

All I can think is that this potent new ammo is gonna be just the thing for the sweet magnaported 1006 I just put on layaway!!! :neener: :D Marcus

[Covey Rise]

Here is my 10mm, fine o fine! Street Price is around $750.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290337519

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/pf4c09e955b01d6dd3b89937de4324530/fc52f99d.jpg.orig.jpg