308 VS 300 wm


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tequillaeagle
June 1, 2009, 06:26 PM
My question to all is i have the oppertunity to get either a 308 or a 300 win mag and im not sure what to get.. the main pourpose of this rifle would be punch paper @ 300 yards with the occasional trip to 600+ But i would also like to have a rifle that i can Elk hunt with in New Mexico

Now im not to concerned about $ bc i will be reloading and well powder is pretty cheep and they share the same Lead
as for recoil im not sure bc i can shoot a 12 Ga all day and i have shot some others like a 7mm a couple of times and it didnt bother me but i was flinching bc i didnt have hearing protection on ,

so what do all of you think?:confused:

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P.B.Walsh
June 1, 2009, 07:18 PM
I would buy a .308 for your needs, mainly for cost.

dullh
June 1, 2009, 07:23 PM
If you want more retained energy farther out, and you think you will be taking long shots at Elk, go with the .300 Win Mag. What weight bullet you going to use?

If using bullets weighing 180gr or less, have you considered a .300 Short Mag? I have one and while I haven't shot an Elk with it, it seems to have alot going for it. Only time will tell as I log time with it out hunting. I will tell you this - I put it side-by-side with a Winchester in .300 Win Mag and recoil is noticeably less with the short mag. Same bullet weight in each rifle. The .300 Short Mag pretty much mirrors the ballistics of the .300 Win Mag in a short action package; if you're going to use heavy bullets over 180gr you'd be better to stick with the .300 Win Mag.

edelbrock
June 1, 2009, 07:23 PM
If you are going to reload then go for the 300 Win Mag. A lot more potential there. You can download it to .308 levels if you want to shoot light loads. Then you have the extra capacity for that elk hunt.

TnBigBore
June 1, 2009, 07:52 PM
If your main objective is to punch paper, definitely go with the 308. The recoil of the 300 from the bench will get old really quick. You would learn to appreciate the lighter weight of the 308 hiking up and down the mountains/hills of NM elk country.

planetmobius
June 1, 2009, 10:22 PM
Get the 300 WM. First, the recoil of this round is routinely overstated. Second, it is capable of match type accuracy, depending on the rifle of course. It is actually used by many different military rifle teams because it can handle heavier bullets with superior wind bucking charicaristics. Consequently, load data for this round is almost as abundant as that for the .308. third, as stated above, the .300 is much more versatile than the .308. You can load it down with light bullets for varmints, deer and all the way up to hunt moose and large bear with confidence.

berettashotgun
June 1, 2009, 11:03 PM
IF - IF - IF you reload -get the 300wm, then you can load down.
Punching paper formally or informally?
308 if formal.
I used a 300wm for years and somehow traded down to a 7mag. Never have broke out the 308 stuff yet, punching paper around here has become kinda serious and seems like everybody is using a 6.5 something or other.

USSR
June 1, 2009, 11:10 PM
Since you reload, consider the .30-06. I match Federal's .300WM 190gr Gold Medal Match load with my '06, and you don't have to contend with that stupid belt.

Don

Kingcreek
June 2, 2009, 10:31 AM
Since you reload, consider the .30-06. I match Federal's .300WM 190gr Gold Medal Match load with my '06, and you don't have to contend with that stupid belt.
that right there is your best advice yet.

Uncle Mike
June 2, 2009, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Since you reload, consider the .30-06. I match Federal's .300WM 190gr Gold Medal Match load with my '06, and you don't have to contend with that stupid belt.

that right there is your best advice yet.

I was giong to say.....

30-06... more than enough for elk critters, needs no hype from me as to a paper puncher, the 30-06 has proven itself time and time again, both setting records on the line and dispatching elk.

BornAgainBullseye
June 2, 2009, 01:11 PM
I ring steel at 600 on a regular basis with my .308. It will get the job done! and it will be lighter, cheaper to shoot and reload, and you will not have a numb shoulder after a range session. Go and shoot the two. The .300wm is a kicker!!! It will go the distance, but for what you want unless you want to throw 190SMK's 1100 yards then the .308 will do anything you set your mind on.

Acera
June 2, 2009, 02:47 PM
.300 Win Mag. All the other posters for the 300 gave enough good reasons.

Maverick223
June 2, 2009, 07:49 PM
I agree .300WM for paper and the big beasts of NA, and dang it I want mine...should have received it a couple of weeks ago. :banghead:

snowpro440
June 2, 2009, 10:34 PM
I have all 3 and to tell you the truth 300 win mag will do everything but it comes at a price , look at the cost to shoot paper with it vs recoil and it will shoot heavy bullets, but the wsm will shoot 180 gr or les great with great recoil but not as much as the 300win mag and is good accuracy at 1000 yards and you dont have to worry about the belted mag caseing and the last , the mighty 308 will take elk to 1000 yards with the right bullet an is cheaper to shoot an you can achieve great accuracy with the 308 because you can comfortably sit at the bench an shoot an easy 50 rounds without flinching and less heat on the barrel with 5 shots:o

diggler1833
June 2, 2009, 11:28 PM
Didn't read the rest of the replys, but for your needs the .308 is perfect.

browningguy
June 3, 2009, 12:20 AM
I own and hunt with .308's, but my elk gun is a .300 Winnie. I like to shoot 180 gr. loads at elk and the Winnie does it a lot better.

And you can download a .300 to .308 velocities for paper punching.

sarduy
June 3, 2009, 12:29 AM
308 vs .300WM ummm...... i go with the 30-06, it's right in between plus you can find ammo under a rock in the desert ( i mean everywhere )

but if you have to choose between those two great calibers....i would go with the .308 because it can kill an Elk at 100/150 yards and you can shoot at 600 yards too, BTW .308 is cheaper than .300 wm

Maverick223
June 3, 2009, 01:12 AM
i go with the 30-06I agree, why have you excluded the venerable old '06? I know it's not the sniper round of choice...but tell that to all the Germans in WWI & WWII. Assuming it is offered in a rifle that fits you, I think it may be the happy medium that you want. FWIW I went with a 300WM for long range because the .30-06 wasn't offered and I was dead-set on the rifle system that I chose.

noob_shooter
June 3, 2009, 04:39 AM
.308.. After a few rounds of 300 win mag, you will start to feel it real good or maybe it's just me...? haha.

For me when choosing the caliber for me, I always choose the one that can do my job with the least recoil and $$$$. Comfort/$$$ > power

Maverick223
June 3, 2009, 12:23 PM
Comfort/$$$ > powerWrong...Power=Work/Time :D

Reid73
June 3, 2009, 01:01 PM
Both the .308 and .300WM are excellent rounds and I don't think you'll be ill-served with either one.

The .308 has some theoretical benefits that have not been mentioned above, probably because they are of limited importance for practical purposes:


typically a .308 will hold more cartridges in its magazine than a .300;
the .308 can be chambered in a shorter action, although for some reason one sees so many .308s in standard (.30/06 length) actions;
the .300 magnum really needs a 24" barrel, whereas you can have a 22", 20" or even an 18" barrel on a .308 without dramatically decreasing the ballistic performance.
Again, the above advantages are largely subjective. More objectively, here are some things to consider. The magnum has more power but more recoil, more muzzle blast, and more barrel wear. Ammunition will cost significantly more than the .308 if you reload (substantially more if you don't). None of those facts are meant as criticism: just be aware that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

(1) If (as your post suggests) your emphasis is on paper-punching, but you would also like to do some occasional hunting, .308 should get the nod.

(2) If you reverse those priorities, the magnum is the more appropriate choice.

(3) If you can't make up your mind, the other posters who have recommended the .30/06 as a [de facto] compromise cartridge halfway between the .308 and the .300 are quite correct. With appropriate twist the .30/06 can also use heavy bullets fairly effectively, which is not really an option for the .308 or the magnum.

SharpsDressedMan
June 3, 2009, 01:33 PM
How much are you going to shoot, do you reload, and what distances will you need it for? I have a .300 Whisper and .300 WM. I used to have a nice .308 Rem 700 to go with the other two (both M700's), but got to the point I never used it. The Whisper serves for close range and target shooting (mostly suppressed, but it does ALMOST what a .30-30 does, so I have used it for whietail hunting), and the .300WM got used for hunting Colorado and long range events at Camp Perry. I know my ballistic tables for the Win Mag, and have a Mildot scope that gives me fast ranging and shots from 100-1100 yards without any elevation adjustments. My load is 68.5gr of IMR4350 under a 200gr BTHP Sierra match. I can go to 1200 yards with a few clicks up on the target elev turret should I ever need to go that far. This far outclassed my .308. Except for excellerated throat erosion over the .308, the .300WM is superior in performance (it gives you about 200-300 more yards with an equal trajectory & a heavier bullet, and stays supersonic out to 1000 yards). IF you reload, you spend more on powder.....bullets, primers, and brass will be about the same. So the number of rounds you fire, and ranges to be used, will probably dictate your need of one cartridge over the other. I shoot many lesser cartridges, reserving my .30's for limited uses. They get fired, but I usually only fire 250-200 rounds through the Win Mag in a year. My barrel still gets 3/4 minute groups at most distances if I do my job ( and don't let the wind mess with me). I verified my zero a few days ago and shot 1.5" groups in a light gusting wind at 200 yards. Good enough for me!

RSVP2RIP
June 3, 2009, 03:44 PM
One thing you never mentioned was weight. All things being equal, a 308 will weight less than a 300mag because of the action length. Maybe only 4 oz, but if you are going to be walking, ALOT, 4 oz feels like 4 lbs. If you want a little more gusto and a light rifle, look to a 30/284 winchester wildcat maybe. Same volume as the 30/06, same action length as a 308. You might not mind the extra trouble of necking up the cases. A little harder to find/expensive brass though. You could also improve the 308 chamber, but thats not gonna give you a whole lot of practicle difference.

rcmodel
June 3, 2009, 03:53 PM
One thing you never mentioned was weight.The guy that said a .300 Mag doesn't kick never mentioned it either!

Put it in his 15 pound match rifle and he is right.
Put it in a 7 pound sporter hunting rifle and it will knock the snot out of you.

Cabala's used gun rack is full of light 7mm & .300 Mags the former owners wished they had never bought.

rc

Reid73
June 3, 2009, 04:58 PM
You are right, but I suspect that - within reason - weight is not a particularly important consideration in this case.

For paper-punching purposes, he will not be carrying the rifle very far. And even if he does some occasional elk hunting in New Mexico, a horse will likely do the majority of the heavy lifting.

That said, I like a reasonably handy rifle. I hope that our friend does not wind up with one of those overbuilt, bulky psuedo-sniper rifles that are seem so common these days.

planetmobius
June 4, 2009, 01:02 AM
Mine is a Remington 700 BDL with a Leupold scope. A far cry from a 15 pound match rifle and I could shoot it all day.

Uncle Mike
June 4, 2009, 01:26 PM
30-06.... you'll see!

ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 01:28 PM
Uncle Mike is right on.

.308 is a bit under serious elk rifle ballistics. .300 WinMag is a lot of expense, recoil and barrel wear for target shooting that a .223 could do.

SharpsDressedMan
June 4, 2009, 01:40 PM
"My question to all is i have the oppertunity to get either a 308 or a 300 win mag and im not sure what to get.. the main pourpose of this rifle would be punch paper @ 300 yards with the occasional trip to 600+ But i would also like to have a rifle that i can Elk hunt with in New Mexico" .............................................................................. Some of you have forgotten the question. No .223 is even going to target shoot at 300yds like a .30 cal (don't forget the wind). Shooting elk at any distance is better served by a .300WM. My gun is a slightly modified Sendero with a 24" barrel, plently light for hunting. If I am going to shoot 20-50rds at targets, I have the option of using a PAST pad, which leaves me with no bruises on the shoulder....could shoot all day long. I like the .30-06, too, but for the purposes dfined, the .300WM is better. As stated earlier, if reloading, the .300WM is not THAT much more expensive than the .308.

Uncle Mike
June 4, 2009, 02:04 PM
"My question to all is i have the oppertunity to get either a 308 or a 300 win mag and im not sure what to get..

Some of you have forgotten the question.

You are quite right... my apologies.....

I would, if given but only these two choices, choose the 300 Winchester Magnum.

The 300Win. will suffice for a long range paper punch, as well as a elk, deer cartridge.

The 308Win., while not seriously handicapped for elk and such is, IMHO, marginal at best for these creatures at distance.

In short, given 'only' these two choices.... make mine the .300 winchester Magnum. :D

USSR
June 4, 2009, 04:17 PM
...the main pourpose of this rifle would be punch paper @ 300 yards with the occasional trip to 600+ But i would also like to have a rifle that i can Elk hunt with in New Mexico

...i will be reloading

Restrained to the two choices and main purpose mentioned, I would go with the .308. For the occasional elk hunt (since you reload), you can always load a premium 180gr hunting bullet to 2700fps, which will produce a world of hurt on any elk.

Don

1858
June 4, 2009, 04:21 PM
the mighty 308 will take elk to 1000 yards with the right bullet

I don't agree with that at all. There is NO favorable comparison between a .308 and .300 Win Mag at 1000 yards. The diminutive .308 only has something on the order of 500 ft-lb of energy at 1000 yards whereas the .300 Win Mag has more energy than a .44 Rem Mag at the muzzle. Now add in the significant differences in bullet drop and wind drift between the two and clearly there's no excuse for taking a shot at an elk at 1000 yards with a .308.

1000+ yard shooting has two real-world applications. Competitive target shooting (where bullet energy isn't that important) and military scenarios where ethical kills are irrelevant since a gut shot on OBL will do just fine thank you very much. Let's be honest, who's going to take a 1000 yard shot at an elk? Before you answer that, you have to think about bullet drop (fairly easy) and wind drift (not easy) with no sighters. Top F-Class Open shooters can't hold 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards, heck, even 1 MOA in good conditions with sighters is tough. So unless you can put a cold bore shot in a 10" target at 1000 yards in real-world conditions then you shouldn't be thinking of shooting an elk at 1000 yards.

So now back to the original question of which to choose between a .308 and a .300 Win Mag. I have both, (and a .300 WSM) I like both and I've never had a problem with the Win Mag in terms of recoil, either in the original H-S stock or the current AICS. The recoil of the .300 Win Mag is overrated since it's more of a push than a thump. Also, why folks make a fuss about the belt on the Win Mag is beyond me ... I get many, many reloads with my cases.

However, if I could only choose one of the two it'd be the .308 hands down with ZERO regrets for the following reasons:

Excellent accuracy out to 600 yards
Easier/faster to shoot in terms of recoil (you WILL lose your sight picture with a .300 Win Mag ... you MIGHT not with a .308 if you have a good stock, suppressor or muzzle brake)
Less muzzle blast means less noise ... a lot less
About 35% cheaper to shoot if you're releoding
A lot cheaper to shoot if you're buying ammunition
Typically lighter (particularly with a 20" barrel)
Short action is easier and faster to work the bolt (good for tactical matches)
Enough bullet energy to ethically take sheep, deer, elk etc out to 500 yards, maybe a little further but shot placement becomes critical
Longer barrel life

At the end of day, you need to think about what you WILL use the rifle for, not what you HOPE or THINK you'll use the rifle for.

:)

ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 04:25 PM
No .223 is even going to target shoot at 300yds like a .30 cal (don't forget the wind).

Damn, now we need a .300 Win Mag to punch paper at 300 yards?!?

Magnumitis has really gotten bad!

Besides, wind reading is part of what makes it interesting after the first few shots.

That said, if you want an elk gun, and someone has you suspended over the Snake River Canyon on a piece of rope, and they're screaming, ".308 or .300 WinMag, DECIDE NOW or I CUT THE ROPE!", then .300 WinMag is the better choice.

ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 04:26 PM
the mighty 308 will take elk to 1000 yards with the right bullet hallucinogens.

Fixed it.:D

TeamRush
June 4, 2009, 04:40 PM
I hunt with both .308 and .300 Win Mag.
To tell you the truth, If I were going to reload my own (and I do) I'd go with the Winchester .300 Short Mag. rather than the .300 Win Mag full length case.

The .308 is a fine rifle, has ballistics virtually identical to the .30-06 and you can find ACCURATE factory loaded ammo for it nearly anywhere.
While it's more than enough to take down Elk at 300 yards with the correct shot placement....
---Most people don't have the correct shot placement---

I have hunted hogs mule deer, moose, elk and bear with both the .308 and the .300 Short Mag (and .300 Win Mag.) and out of the three, I prefer the .300 WIN short mag.

I believe the .300 Winchester Short Mag gives me more bullet choices, a little more zip on the bullet (never hurts!) and they are as inherently accurate as the .308 rifles.

You can EASILY down load your target rounds so they don't kick the crap out of you every time you pull the trigger, so getting past the flinch isn't a huge issue,
And about every maker cranks out a rifle chambered in the .300 Win Short Mag now.

I put down a 690 Pound Alaskan Grizzly two years ago with a .300 Win Short Mag, 310 yards out,
One shot, got about 10 feet and dropped.
Couldn't have been a cleaner shot, and I was using factory loaded ammo... about $1.10 a round!

For smaller game, I couldn't recommend a .308 more up to Mule deer and even larger,
But Elk, Moose or dangerous game like bears or hogs, I suggest you step up to the magnum velocities and slow expanding bullets.

Just my opinion, so let the flames begin! ;)

Eb1
June 4, 2009, 04:41 PM
:banghead:No .223 is even going to target shoot at 300yds like a .30 cal (don't forget the wind).:banghead:


:scrutiny:

Reid73
June 4, 2009, 04:47 PM
1000+ yard shooting has two real-world applications. Competitive target shooting (where bullet energy isn't that important) and military scenarios where ethical kills are irrelevant since a gut shot on OBL will do just fine thank you very much. Let's be honest, who's going to take a 1000 yard shot at an elk? unless you can put a cold bore shot in a 10" target at 1000 yards in real-world conditions then you shouldn't be thinking of shooting an elk at 1000 yards.I could not agree more.

At the end of day, you need to think about what you WILL use the rifle for, not what you HOPE or THINK you'll use the rifle for.Quite right.

hutner22
June 4, 2009, 06:39 PM
300Wm all the way

ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 07:01 PM
unless you can put a cold bore shot in a 10" target at 1000 yards in real-world conditions then you shouldn't be thinking of shooting an elk at 1000 yards.

BTW, what's the world record for a benchrest 1000 yard group?

I think it's in the just-under-4" range, but the rifle bears no resemblance to a hunting rifle, AFAIK it wasn't done with a hunting round (certainly not a hunting bullet), and it was done from a solid benchrest.

In real world field conditions, I'm not sure that anyone could promise to put a cold shot in a 10" circle at 1000 yards with a hunting rifle using hunting ammunition.

Yes, one could get lucky. There could be no wind. One could know the range to the yard. It could happen. But could someone legitimately be confident in being able to do it whenever called upon, with a .308, which is the slowest modern .30 caliber round?

Reid73
June 4, 2009, 08:06 PM
No, they sure couldn't. And that's why no responsible hunter will attempt such a shot.

Unfortunately there are things such as this stupid video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssh8Vsbvn2A) circulating on the Internet and likely influencing impressionable young people. Several questions come to mind: (1) are they too lazy to walk far from their truck? (2) do they not know how to stalk? (3) what is their back-up plan if they muff the shot and wound the animal?

Maverick223
June 4, 2009, 08:13 PM
I have to agree with 1858 and ArmedBear, there is no comparison at 1000 yards, the .308 has no place killing anything besides HP superwhite and Gophers at that range, and it bucks the wind like a semi truck at that range. If the 300WM and the .308 are the only options...the 300Winny wins hands down for your use. If you want to open up the search and include a couple others the .30-06 and 7mm Mag should be at the top of the list IMO.

Reid I don't think that the shot in the video is unreasonable if and only if the individual knew that he could make the shot. There are plenty of people that shouldn't hunt at 1000yds, but there are some that have the skill required to make the shot (this guy did well from what I can gather only from the video). There are some people that shouldn't be attempting a 50yd shot, because they haven't the skill to make it.

saturno_v
June 4, 2009, 08:21 PM
More than one very experienced hunter told me that you should never take a shot past the 400 yards mark, no matter what...the risk of a non ethical, non perfect shot increase exponentially...

That said...

At 1000 yards various long range loads for the .308 retain ~550 ft/lb of energy (source: www.snipercentral.com)...the problem is the monstrous bullet drop compensation problem and wind issues at that range.

At the same distance mark, the long range loads for the 300 Win Mag retain ~850-870 ft/lb of energy....not an enormous difference after all....(less drop of course and better wind handling capability) but still....

The surprising 7.62 X 54R (the Mosin-Nagant round) sniper load (7N1 185 gr. BT) is neck to neck with the more powerful 300 Win Mag past 500 yards....at the 1 K mark it has ~750 ft/lb of energy left.

Beside the enormous challenge and non existant margin of error of a 1000 y hunting shot, the bullets used for that level of long range shooting are usually totally inadequate for hunting game purposes anyway...so it's a moot point...

The .308 is a fine rifle, has ballistics virtually identical to the .30-06

Dream on.....at both their full potential, the 30-06 leaves the 308 in the dust....

Maverick223
June 4, 2009, 08:26 PM
I am not saying there are scores of people that should take such a shot, just that a few can and have. I personally would not take the shot, at least not at the present time.

Reid73
June 4, 2009, 08:42 PM
I don't think that the shot in the video is unreasonable if and only if the individual knew that he could make the shotI quite agree with you Maverick, but: there is no real way that he can know. He may think that he can do it; he may be highly confident that he can do it; and indeed he may actually have done it several times before. But shooting in the field is not like shooting at a target range, and - as ArmedBear noted - there are variables such as wind and slope that can be estimated but not precisely known.

I have no quarrel with long range shooting as a sport; it's a great challenge! But it is inappropriate for hunting, since my question "what is their back-up plan if they muff the shot and wound the animal?" can never be satisfactorily answered. Animals deserve respect, and indeed obtain it from any true hunter. They should not be placed at undue risk of pain and suffering merely to satisfy some slob's ego.

Assuming that the above is correct, the question naturally arises "how far away is too far?" I doubt that it's possible to place a hard and fast rule on that: 500 yards is probably about a reasonable limit for very experienced hunters with appropriate equipment, while others are well advised to restrict themselves to 100 yards. The majority of us probably fall somewhere in between. Ultimately, we all have to use good judgment and listen to our conscience.

Anyway, as WileyWapiti says, hunting is about interacting with nature, not being some sort of remote assassin far removed from the "target". Good blog entry here (http://californiahuntingtoday.com/hogblog/2007/03/02/long-distance-shooting/). Great chart here (http://bwanabob.us/hunters.htm).

saturno_v
June 4, 2009, 08:52 PM
Anyway, as WileyWapiti says, hunting is about interacting with nature, not being some sort of remote assassin far removed from the "target". Good blog entry here.


I could not agree more...

If you think a 1000 yards hunting shot is appropriate, at that point why not hunting with a thermal sensor guided missile from 10 miles away....:D:D

As many says......100 yards is already a long way out!!! :p

Maverick223
June 4, 2009, 09:01 PM
I have no quarrel with long range shooting as a sport; it's a great challenge! But it is inappropriate for hunting, since my question "what is their back-up plan if they muff the shot and wound the animal?" can never be satisfactorily answered. Animals deserve respect, and indeed obtain it from any true hunter. They should not be placed at undue risk of pain and suffering merely to satisfy some slob's ego.What is the backup plan for a 50yd shot, there are no guarantees on second chances. I do feel that you should hunt as far as you would like and are able to do successfully. If you want to (and are able to) shoot deer at 1000yds with a Barrett Light Fifty that weighs 35lbs then I see no problem with it. I didn't necessarily say it is for me, I think 200yds is a long shot when hunting. Now lets get back to the original question...:)

Reid73
June 4, 2009, 09:05 PM
What is the backup plan for a 50yd shot, there are no guarantees on second chancesPlease read the blog entry, linked above in my previous post. He explains everything in simple terms.

moooose102
June 4, 2009, 09:06 PM
buy the 300 win mag. you can download it to .30 carbine if you want to, and you will have the power when ever you need it. it is going to be pretty tough to try getting 300 win mag performance out of a 308!

1858
June 4, 2009, 09:45 PM
At 1000 yards various long range loads for the .308 retain ~550 ft/lb of energy ... At the same distance mark, the long range loads for the 300 Win Mag retain ~850-870 ft/lb of energy....not an enormous difference after all....

According to ExBal, the load that I use in my Win Mag (208gr A-MAX with a MV of 2850 fps) has 1243 ft-lb of energy at 1000 yards (sea level). Compare that to the load that I use in my .308 (168gr SMK HPBT with a MV of 2700 fps) which has 461 ft-lb of energy at 1000 yards. That's a big difference to me. :) This all comes back to real-world application that I mentioned earlier. The .300 Win Mag is an excellent F-Class and anti-personnel caliber with bullets such as the 208gr A-MAX, but its long-range game application is questionable since most of the bullets used for hunting have lower BC values which adversely affect terminal energy, as you pointed out.

BTW, what's the world record for a benchrest 1000 yard group?

ArmedBear, the two heavy gun benchrest 10-shot WRs are both just over 3". That's why I mentioned F-Class Open where the rifles are shot prone and a rear bag or support is allowed. While not exactly the same, if those guys can't keep all the hits within a 5" circle at 1000 yards, and only a few keep them all in a 10" circle at 1000 yards, then there's no hope for the average hunter.

:)

Maverick223
June 4, 2009, 09:57 PM
World Record (5 Shot Group) @ 1000yds = 1.403in. <- With a "Light" Class Rifle.

saturno_v
June 4, 2009, 11:43 PM
1858

The data I reported for the 300 Win Mag are for the 190 gr. Sierra Match King at 2900 fps MV.

http://www.snipercentral.com/300.htm

The 208 gr. evidently is able to conserve energy significantly better because of its better BC.

The 550 ft/lb for the .308 Winchester is for the 175 gr. Federal Gold Metal Match at 2600 fps MV

http://www.snipercentral.com/308.htm

1858
June 5, 2009, 12:23 AM
Mav, is that a benchrest record that you posted?

The F-Class TR national record for 15 shots at 1000 yards prone is as follows:

10/4/08
Danny Biggs
149-8X

So definitely NOT 1 MOA (10.470") and could be much worse. This just goes to show how tough it is to shoot MOA at 1000 yards, particularly when you're not using a bench. The TR class use rifles that are closer in weight to a hunting rifle but still with a significant advantage being something like twice the weight of a typical hunting rifle. Also, the front and rear of the rifle is supported ... not your usual hunting scenario.

:)

The 208 gr. evidently is able to conserve energy significantly better because of its better BC.

Yep, it's a great bullet for sure.

:)

SharpsDressedMan
June 5, 2009, 01:23 AM
don't know how we got on hunting elk at 1000 yards, but given field conditions, that would be more in the dream category, no matter how much energy is retained. My load is with a 200 grain BTHP @ 2830fps, and my PACT Pro chronograph gives me options at different zeros. For hunting, I feel a zero of 300 yards is practical, and the mildots can take care of adjusting impact out to 500-550 yards, probably my practical range on a stationary animal under field condtions. Yeah, the gun can shoot father, and kill farther, but I would limit myself. As others have stated, stalking is part of the game, not proving how far you can shoot. My rifle is a slightly modified Remington Sendero with 24" barrel. The barrel has been reset 1/4 turn, still using the factory stock, an adjusted factory trigger,, and carries a 6.5-20x40 Target Leupold, that is set on 12x when using the mil-scale. When target shooting at 1000, I sight it in at 100 yards to be 29" high, and I am on the target SOMEWHERE at 1000. I have gone for record after sighting in with two shots on one occasion at Camp Perry, so I know the charts are better than theory. When I want to be "tactical" (don't we all hate that word by now :barf:), I reset my zero to 700 yards to make full use of my mil scale, as mentioned before. Same method, only setting the prelim sight in at 100 yards to 17 inches high. If I have to grab the rifle, it's set to utilize the mil-dots, with a card on the stock for all range hold over or under's. Not for everyone, but this is the system that works for me. Having lived in NW Colorado, I have seen most everything used on elk, but the 7mm & 300 mags are usually the ticket. Most common rifles used in that area of Colo? Per the wildlife officer I knew (this was some years ago), .270, 7mm mag, and .30-30. This reflected the most frequently encountered guns, many by the locals, not necessarily the BEST for the job. I shot a muley at 350 with a .308 one year, not a bad hit, but I had to track for over a mile, and then someone else achored him, and thus, took him. A similar hit with a .300 mag probably would have dropped him sooner........

Maverick223
June 5, 2009, 01:43 AM
Mav, is that a benchrest record that you posted?Yes sir, it would be pretty hard to get that otherwise, and don't get me wrong it is not a typical hunting rifle/stance/distance just saying that the record is a bit better, and with a 17lb rifle no less (light compared to many, some howitzers weigh less than some of the bench guns).

But, before we get back into hunting ethics lets just agree that 99.999% of hunters should not take a shot at any game animal at anywhere near 1000yds under any normal (non-survival) circumstances. :)

Polar Express
June 5, 2009, 01:55 AM
Short answer: between just those two, choosing only one? 300 WM

Long answer/opinion/personal situation and current plan:

I'm in kinda the same boat you describe. I already own a M1A, and I have no plans to get rid of it, I just finished building it. So, I already belong to the .308 club. Would I take it hunting? Configured the way it is, no, I don't plan on it. But I could, its just kinda heavy to lug around the mountains if I don't have too. Besides, I'd actually feel a little irrisponsible if I didn't own a bolt gun that was capable of shooting the same .308 I have for the M1A. (I know, a little goofy)

A few weeks ago, I posted a thread asking about .308 vs, 30-06 or bigger. If I was only going to have one, well the '06 would likely be my choice, but I already have a .308, so i'll have brass, and dies do build them any way I want. And, as others have said: with todays materials, you can come pretty close to the '06 with the .308. So, for me, that made my choice. i'll be getting a .308 bolt gun to go with my 'evil black gun'. (I don't plan to run hot loads in my M1A, just standard NATO loads) But, I'm willing to upload the hunting loads for the bolt platform.

Now, since I decided to go with the .308, and as some have mentioned, when we hunt occasionally, shot placement may not be that perfect, so having a bit more gun can be nice. Especially if the shot you want to take is a bit farther out. It's proven that .308 will punch paper a long ways out, but dropping large game is different than punching paper. It'll be nice to have that extra energy that a larger cartridge can offer. So I'm considering adding a belted magnum to the 'stable'. I am leaning towards the .300 WM. Why? I believe it uses the same .30 caliber dia bullet that I would use in the .308s. Same size, i can mix and match for different results. I still have to confirm this though.

But, then enters the 'other' argument that makes a lot of sense to me: isn't it a good idea to have "ONE" hunting gun that you are very familiar with, and be just dead-on with? I see the value in that approach. But, I also believe in the idea of a 'back up' rifle, in case you trip, and break your stock, or scope, or ??? Your day may be done, but not your whole hunt trip.

I guess to sum it up, i'd rather have too much gun that I can load down, than not enough gun and I already loaded it up to its max.

Polar Express
June 5, 2009, 01:56 AM
oops, apparently I double posted. then I tried to figure out how to delete my second one. Im such a retard when it comes to this kind of thing...

Bart B.
June 5, 2009, 09:13 AM
For what it's worth, the .308 Win. trounced all the .30-06 match records it held by the late 1960's. And the .308's much easier to shoot accurately in hunting environments than both the .30-06 and .300 magnums because the rifle moves in recoil less while the bullet goes down the barrel.

I doubt one could tell much difference between the .308 and .30-06 in hunting game at ranges up to 300 yards. Darned few people shoot good enough to take game easily with one shot any further than that. Impact differences due to the slightly lower muzzle velocity of the .308 is insignificant. Bullet placement is about 8.4 times more important than a 5% difference in striking velocity.

Here's what a decent .308 Win. can do at 800 yards accuracy wise:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3614/3394146444_2d5f4c3e52.jpg?v=0

No .30-06 has even come close.

Uncle Mike
June 5, 2009, 12:09 PM
For what it's worth, the .308 Win. trounced all the .30-06 match records it held by the late 1960's. And the .308's much easier to shoot accurately in hunting environments than both the .30-06 and .300 magnums because the rifle moves in recoil less while the bullet goes down the barrel.


What???? :what:
Ever wonder why all those .30-06 records have been broken by the .308....

It is, in the United States anyway, common for the masses to migrate towards anything the great military machine is using and adorn it repetitiously.

That said, IMHO, if the ol' -06' was still chucking ball as often as the .308 was, then I think we might see different record holders in the cartridge world.

No concern... In the distance/power line-up... 300 Win.Mag., 30-06 and the 308. Given all factors the same, bullet weight, atmosphere, barrel length, ect...

Simple physics dictate that, for a given weight, the faster you move that weight,(for greater distance and energy) the more recoil(opposite reaction) you will produce.

Layman... If you would like more speed, flatter trajectories, greater energy at the target... you are going to have to put up with more recoil on your end...


Peace:D

ArmedBear
June 5, 2009, 12:14 PM
That said, IMHO, if the ol' -06' was still chucking ball as often as the .308 was, then I think we might see different record holders in the cartridge world.


More egregious example...

The .270 is not known as an accurate round.

This has nothing to do with its potential inherent accuracy, which has never really been explored. It has to do with the fact that people don't build target rifles in .270 Winchester, and the round isn't used for serious target shooting.

1911shooter
June 5, 2009, 12:21 PM
To the OP go with the 300 win mag, Unless you are willing to move to the 30-378 weatherby the 300win will do everything you need.
As to hunting Elk at 1,000yrds yes it is possible but the farthest shot i know of is 800yrds in that neighborhood.
And that was a video from Berger bullets web sight. www.bergerbullets.com.
my son uses a 300win and it is the only rifle he grabs for deer, Elk, Pronghorn and his sheep hunt. its all about choosing the right bullet for the job and shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.
And to shoot anything past 200yrds you need to burn alot of ammo and alot of time at the range and not just shooting from the bench.

Uncle Mike
June 5, 2009, 12:24 PM
The .270 is not known as an accurate round.

+1 Armedbear...+1
HAHAHA... that reminds me... My friend, the late B♦ll Perry, 1980, 600y table top match, eastern U.S.... this guy shows up with a Bell custom in.. yep, none other than the .270 Win.... long story short... the rest of us were buying the beer and breakfast for the whole week!

Absolutely whipped everyones(60 competitors) arses with that stupid rifle... yea Bill, if you can hear me... I said STUPID rifle....hehehe:D :neener:

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 5, 2009, 01:05 PM
In that situation (one rifle for combo 600 yard paper puncher and elk hunter), my caliber of choice would be the 7mm Remington Magnum; honorable mentions to .280 rem, .270 win, 6.5x55 swedish, 7x57 Mauser, .284 Winchester, & 6.5-.284 norma. The two you listed are not BAD choice by any stretch, but inferior to this one for this purpose, IMO, and not even among my top 5 choices for that specific combination of purposes. Why are we limiting ourselves to those?

But if you must limit it to those, that's a very tough call, but I'd lean toward the .300 win mag; about a wash, however - lots of good to be said about the .308 win as well.

HAHAHA... that reminds me... My friend, the late B♦ll Perry, 1980, 600y table top match, eastern U.S.... this guy shows up with a Bell custom in.. yep, none other than the .270 Win.... long story short... the rest of us were buying the beer and breakfast for the whole week!

Absolutely whipped everyones(60 competitors) arses with that stupid rifle... yea Bill, if you can hear me... I said STUPID rifle....hehehe

Hee hee, like that story. :)

ArmedBear
June 5, 2009, 01:15 PM
Why are we limiting ourselves to those?

That's why I pictured Snidely Whiplash dangling the OP over the Snake River canyon, and telling him he had to decide, .308 or .300 WinMag, or else.

See? It all adds up.

http://www.conversationmarketing.com/Snidely%2BWhiplash.png + http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Perrine_bridge_20070602.jpg/250px-Perrine_bridge_20070602.jpg

=

The only real explanation for this thread.

At the very least, I'd say split the difference between the .308 and .300, and just get a .30-06.

7mm Rem Mag does sound good, too.

Maverick223
June 5, 2009, 02:01 PM
The more I think about it the more I think that 7mm RM is the way to go, because the OP reloads so ammo cost is not a big factor. The 7mm will outperform all of the aforementioned .30s with less recoil and nearly as much energy as the 300WM.

Uncle Mike
June 5, 2009, 06:46 PM
.300 Remington Ultra Mag.

There is no other-








......... and IF were ever attacked... you'll have a light armor and materials weapon.... Rhinos at noon.... elephants at dusk... no problem...:D

Bart B.
June 5, 2009, 06:58 PM
For what it's worth, a minute of angle in the shooting sports ain't the same as one in trigonometry. About a hundred years ago, it was standardized with both scope and aperture sights as 1/3600th of the range. There's 3600 inches in a hundred yards. Scoring rings on both .22 rimfire and 30 caliber target rifles started out spaced in even inches out from the center.

Those old Sidle, Litchert, Unertl, Lyman, El Monte and even the Remington externally adjusted scopes had their mounts spaced 7.200 inches apart. With each MOA on their adjustment threaded 40 tpi moving them 4 clicks (.0005 inch each) or .002-inch. That equals 7.2/3600; moves impact exactly 1 inch at 100 yards.

Standard sight radius from front to rear was 30 inches. 30/3600 = .008333 inch. Aperture sights had their adjustment lead screws also threaded 40 tpi and 1/3rd of a turn moved the aperture .008333 inch, one full turn was 3 MOA. Each 1/4th MOA click moved the aperture .0020833 inch. Common with Lyman, Vaver, Redfield, Clerke, Warner and other old and recent aperture sights. One exception is Anschutz rear sights for their rimfire match rifles as one click moves them 1 or 2 millimeters at 50 meters.

This is not well known and is why so many folks use the trig functions for an angle of 1/60th of a degree to see what it is. Same issue with mils used in military spotting for targets; there's 4 different standards in use around the world for how many mils there are in a circle.

Bart B.
June 7, 2009, 08:32 PM
UncleMike's comment:Ever wonder why all those .30-06 records have been broken by the .308.... It is, in the United States anyway, common for the masses to migrate towards anything the great military machine is using and adorn it repetitiously.It's very common that the masses migrate to anything new. But 'tain't the reason the .308 beat the .30-06 records.

A few top 'smiths catering to the high power competitors began building chambering their rifles for the .308 Win. A good friend of many of them tested Sierra Bullet's products and knew early on how accuracy from a .308 case was better than from an '06 one. When .308 chambered match rifles began being used in matches were equal quality rifles and people used the '06 and won handily, the message was made clear.

In about 10 months beginning in early 1963 when the changeover began, the .308 clearly showed its advantage. Three years later, the 100-year plus scoring ring diameters had to be reduced; too many unbreakable ties during the previous two years between folks shooting the .308 with all shots inside the smallest ring.

Polar Express
June 7, 2009, 10:58 PM
Interestingly enough to me, I just stumbled on an article the other day, where a 105 lb lady, who knew nothing about hunting was started from zero, and went on a Guided CO elk hunt a few months later. She is/was a writer, and open minded about firearms and hunting. A few city folks thought it would be an interesting story. Havent finished the article yet.

I bring it up, cuz in the article she is listed at 105 lbs. The gun she was trained to hunt with was a .300 WM (it had a shortened stock and was borrowed from another lady) The author weighs exactly HALF of what I weigh, and so far, she hasn't griped about the recoil.

So, I'll toss that out to all of the 'men' out there who get worked up over the recoil differences. We all better check and see if our man card has an expiration date.

Bart B.
June 8, 2009, 08:53 AM
Polar Express, good post about the lightweight and her hard-kickin' rifle.

Most folks don't realize that 95% of the recoil isn't felt until after the bullet leaves the barrel. But the remaining 5% that happens while the bullet's going down the barrel is what makes hard-kickin' shoulder arms difficult to shoot accurate.

'Course at the other end of the recoil spectrum is in rapid fire international matches at 25 meters and .22 rimfire short semiauto pistols are used. Their barrels are vented at the top and set low in the frame well aligned with the shooting arm so the recoil from those tiny cartridges won't take long to recover from. Three 5-shot strings are fired in time limits of 8, 6 and 4 seconds. High scoring ring's about 4 x 6 inches. You gotta tame the recoil if you're gonna win.

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