The perfect optic for an AK-47 style or similar rifle


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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 1, 2009, 10:07 PM
for the ultimak rail, or on pretty much any other EBR for that matter.

The new Trijicon "RMR". The Aimpoint battery may last 50,000 hours, but this one lasts even longer, as in, forever. Dunno about you, but I'm fired up about this sight.

http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/parts_new.cfm?categoryID=13

:) :)

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Coronach
June 1, 2009, 10:15 PM
Tritium =/= forever.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 1, 2009, 10:48 PM
Right, but I'm not relying on tritium at all; solely upon fiber optics. I don't even consider the tritium at all as a plus.

The question is, really,

9 MOA Amber dot:
http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=669&back_row=0&categoryID=13

Or 13 MOA Amber dot:
http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=668&back_row=0&categoryID=13

H2O MAN
June 1, 2009, 10:58 PM
I prefer the Micro optics from Aimpoint, their controls are more user friendly and the don't have that curved - TV tube looking glass.

lipadj46
June 1, 2009, 11:01 PM
I would take the Aimpoint Micro T1 myself. I don't like the open Trijicon reflex sights. I have not seen these but I am going by the RX30.

conw
June 1, 2009, 11:03 PM
=/= ≠ ≠

Coronach
June 2, 2009, 12:57 AM
HAHAHAHHA. nice, Conwict. :)

OK, Tritium ≠ forever, and fiber-optic ≠ effective illumination in all lighting conditions.

Mike

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 2, 2009, 09:25 PM
Anyone else like the looks of the RMR? I like the light weight particularly for a forward-mounted optic such as would be on an ultimak rail.

lipadj46
June 2, 2009, 09:32 PM
It looks cool, have you tried one out though? Some don't like them because the dot can be too dim and the tinted glass can be annoying. May not be an issue if you are used to using Trijicons though.

Kind of Blued
June 3, 2009, 12:02 AM
Is there a reason for all the spare plastic?

http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t043/T043596A.jpg

http://www.trijicon.com/parts/RM05_45-web1.jpg

http://radioadvisoryboard.com/images/flat-screen.jpg


Maybe they needed it for design purposes...

TechBrute
June 3, 2009, 12:13 AM
If I had an AK, I'd probably lean towards this:

http://www.laruetactical.com/pics/laruetacticalak-irondot/laruetacticalak-irondot.html

ETA: Of course, I'll probably never own an AK, because I thought the big deal about them is that they were cheap rifles with cheap ammo, neither of which seems to be the case any more so I don't know what the draw it.

rangerruck
June 3, 2009, 12:24 AM
the extra goo is why the call it a ' ruggedized' ... no breaky. plus that flat screen would be waaaay to big on either a TEXASWEAPONSYSTEMS-c rail, or an ultimak rail, really.

Hostile Amish
June 3, 2009, 01:07 AM
Aimpoint.

MTMilitiaman
June 3, 2009, 04:42 AM
Ditto on the Larue IronDot. I just ordered one for my AK. If it can earn its playing time, it may replace the Kobra I have on the rifle now.

SodiumBenzoate
June 3, 2009, 04:48 AM
"Right, but I'm not relying on tritium at all; solely upon fiber optics. I don't even consider the tritium at all as a plus.

The question is, really,

9 MOA Amber dot:
http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/p...&categoryID=13

Or 13 MOA Amber dot:
http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/p...&categoryID=13"

You mean absurdly large dot or absurdly large dot?

I personally like 2 MOA dots.

TechBrute
June 3, 2009, 08:43 AM
I personally like 2 MOA dots.

Yeah, but it's an AK. 9MOA is all the precision you need. :evil:

Shung
June 3, 2009, 09:00 AM
anyone have seen this RMR on a rifle ? can't get an idea of the size of this thing..

H2O MAN
June 3, 2009, 09:25 AM
The Micro dot is about 3.5 MOA in size and the view is distortion free. Co witnessing the irons is a nice plus :)

http://www.athenswater.com/images/MicroT-1__UltiMAK.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/6nyps0.jpg

maskedman504
June 3, 2009, 11:55 AM
The Micro dot is about 3.5 MOA in size and the view is distortion free. Co witnessing the irons is a nice plus

Could you mount it on your m1a and post a pic please? :evil:

benEzra
June 3, 2009, 11:55 AM
The question is, really,

9 MOA Amber dot:

Or 13 MOA Amber dot:
Smaller is better, IMO. The dot on my Kobra is 1.8 MOA. I'd think anything bigger than 4 or 5 MOA would make the optic hard to use between 100 and 300 yards. At even 200 yards, a 13 MOA dot is ~26 inches wide and will completely cover pretty much anything you would be be shooting at. At 300 yards, it covers a full meter.

Having said that, if you are getting the optic for close range shooting, the huge dot may not be such a drawback. Having never used one, I can't say.

ETA: Of course, I'll probably never own an AK, because I thought the big deal about them is that they were cheap rifles with cheap ammo, neither of which seems to be the case any more so I don't know what the draw it.
For me, the draw is simplicity, reliability under adverse conditions, versatility, and durability; I also like the industrial aesthetic. Back when it was cheap, economy was also a plus, but it wasn't the sole raison d'etre of the civilian AK.

Dan Crocker
June 3, 2009, 12:05 PM
I've really, really enjoyed my Kobra sight. It's not as good as the Trijicons or EOtechs, but for a sight that's rugged and weighs twice as much as it should, well, you can't beat it.

H2O MAN
June 3, 2009, 12:28 PM
maskedman504

Could you mount it on your m1a and post a pic please?

I don't own an m1a... would you like to see it on one of my M14s :evil:

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 3, 2009, 01:39 PM
What extra plastic do you mean? If you're talking about the clear part, that's the light-gathering FO part, which makes the thing work without batteries. Pretty darned necessary.

As for the LaRue sight that replaces the rear sight of the AK, that's intruiging, but (a) I don't think it would be sturdy, and (b) If I was gonna use a battery optic, it'd be an Aimpoint. The whole idea here (for me) is to have something small and light, AND get away from batteries.

Yeah, but it's an AK. 9MOA is all the precision you need.

ThisiswhatI'msayin. :)

Also, you CAN co-witness. In fact, getting the Tech Site rear sight and co-witnessing it with this RMR on an ultimak is pretty much the ultimate setup for a rough and dirty close-in fighting mo-sheen like an AK. :)

As for the RMR not working in all conditions, I'm calling BS. The FO gathers plenty of light to work in all conditions - it's self-regulating/self-adjusting, if it's anything at all like all the other Trijicon products. In fact, if it's so dark that you cannot see a dot from the FO (even if the tritium is DEAD), then it's so dark that you won't see ANYTHING, including a target to shoot at.

As for being more difficult to adjust the point of impact, yeah I guess, but really, how often are you gonna do that on a red dot. It's a set-it-and-forget-it thing on a rifle like an AK. Once it's on, it'll stay on. But if not, I've got a pocket screwdriver on my keychain, so....

I'll admit the Aimpoint Micros are mighty nice, and I can see their usefulness, and they are a close close 2nd place, but I don't like turning them on and off. This RMS is ALWAYS ready to fire, whether the rifles been in the closet for 20 years, or you've been in your stand for 20 minutes, or anywhere in between.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 3, 2009, 02:13 PM
As for the RMR not working in all conditions, I'm calling BS. The FO gathers plenty of light to work in all conditions - it's self-regulating/self-adjusting, if it's anything at all like all the other Trijicon products. In fact, if it's so dark that you cannot see a dot from the FO (even if the tritium is DEAD), then it's so dark that you won't see ANYTHING, including a target to shoot at.

Really? Try setting up a target in a bright, sunlit area and then shoot from a darkened area towards the target.

What used to typically happen with the Reflex (and this appears to be similar in operation), is that the fiber optic would take in less ambient light and become dimmer and the dimmer amber reticle would disappear against the brightly lit (in amber light no less) target.

Alternatively, both you and the target can be in a dark area and you can light up the target with a high-powered weaponlight and see a similar effect.

To correct that with the Reflex, Trijicon started offering a polarizing filter that allowed you to basically make the glass dark enough that the reticle contrasted with the darker glass so you could use it. Of course, the problem there is that the darker glass also cut down on your view of the target through the sight.

The ACOGs have never had this problem because they have an etched reticle to fall back on if the illumination isn't bright enough; but the Reflex has always been plagued by it (which is why the Tripower had batteries).

I'm interested to see if Trijicon has corrected this in the latest generation Reflex and RMR; but I am skeptical.

TechBrute
June 3, 2009, 02:43 PM
I was about to say everything that Bart just said. Luckily I refreshed and saw his reply before typing it all out.

I have or have had the Trijicon Reflex, ACOG, Tri-Power, and Night Sights, so I am no stranger to their products. The Reflex was shockingly expensive for what it was. After buying one and using it for a while, I wondered how they ever sold any, and then I figured it was to people like me that didn't know any better.

On a side note, I'm pretty sure I had a reflex on top of my rifle when I met Bart at a gun show roughly 6 years ago.

RP88
June 3, 2009, 02:50 PM
Kobra red-dot. Designed by the Russians for a Russian gun.

benEzra
June 4, 2009, 06:06 PM
Yeah, but it's an AK. 9MOA is all the precision you need.
ThisiswhatI'msayin.
To me, it's quite limiting, though. If there were offsetting advantages at close range (say, faster target acquisition), then I could see the point, but a small bright dot is just as easy to pick up quickly at close range as a enormous dot. But I can stay on an 18" steel ram at 200 yards with the Kobra dot, but I wouldn't even be able to see the target with a 9MOA or 13MOA dot, never mind hit it.

If you can use the irons effectively through the optic, that may mitigate the problem in bright light, but under less than ideal lighting, it still remains.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 4, 2009, 06:11 PM
Really? Try setting up a target in a bright, sunlit area and then shoot from a darkened area towards the target.

What used to typically happen with the Reflex (and this appears to be similar in operation), is that the fiber optic would take in less ambient light and become dimmer and the dimmer amber reticle would disappear against the brightly lit (in amber light no less) target.

Alternatively, both you and the target can be in a dark area and you can light up the target with a high-powered weaponlight and see a similar effect.

To correct that with the Reflex, Trijicon started offering a polarizing filter that allowed you to basically make the glass dark enough that the reticle contrasted with the darker glass so you could use it. Of course, the problem there is that the darker glass also cut down on your view of the target through the sight.

The ACOGs have never had this problem because they have an etched reticle to fall back on if the illumination isn't bright enough; but the Reflex has always been plagued by it (which is why the Tripower had batteries).

I'm interested to see if Trijicon has corrected this in the latest generation Reflex and RMR; but I am skeptical.

Well, ok, you may be right. More research is in order then.

I was basing my statements re: "other Trijicon products" by my Accupoint, which is admittedly a different animal than the reflex or RMR, but which which I can also see some glow in the amber triangle tip of the post reticle, even in very dark or very light conditions.

Where does one buy the Kobras, anyhow?

MTMilitiaman
June 4, 2009, 07:04 PM
Kalinka, Freedom Optics, or Tantal.

Doug @ Tantal in particular is a pleasure to deal with. I got mine through him, as well as my TDI hand guard set. No complaints with either experience.

Dan Crocker
June 4, 2009, 07:09 PM
Yeah, I'll have to second the excellent service from Doug at Tantal. Great, patient guy.

benEzra
June 4, 2009, 07:23 PM
Third shout-out for Doug at Tantal.

One thing about the Kobras, they do sit high (3.8" over the bore axis to the lens center). That's good for me because I wear moderately thick glasses, and so shoot better from a heads-up position, but if you like a good cheek weld then you might be happier with something that sits lower (like an Aimpoint Micro on an Ultimak forward rail).

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/uploads/1168567538/gallery_260_23_20379.jpg

FWIW, if your AK is 7.62x39mm and you zero the dot of a Kobra at 50 yards, it will have a far zero right at 200 yards and will never be more than 2.2" from the line of sight between ~20 and ~220 yards.

More thoughts on using the different reticles here (with photos):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=370039

And what to do if your switch shaft starts to sieze up---rare, but mine did---if you have the EKP-8-02 coin-cell version (switch freezup may not be an issue with AA models, since the switch setup is different):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=358937

Be warned, the adjustment markings are in Russian (which to me counts for cool points, but it may not for you).

The only downside I see to Kobras is battery life. I have the coin-cell version for slightly lighter weight, but if you don't trust batteries, you may wish to get the AA battery version, only because you can buy AA's practically anywhere and stockpile plenty of them. But you don't get 10,000 hours of battery life out of them, more like a few hundred at most. On the upside, the multiple reticles are fantastic, the dot makes accurate shooting much easier than the stock irons, and the optic is milspec and water resistant.

BTW, here's a nice pic through a Kobra looking at a 50-yard silhouette target, with the dot-chevron selected (props to MTMilitiaman for the pic):

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/Kobraviewchevronwithdot.jpg

For reference, the dot is 1.8 MOA wide (that photo is zoomed in a bit). But you can see how the small dot lets you place the shot pretty precisely at a distance, and the chevron can be used if you want a bigger aiming point in close.

AK103K
June 4, 2009, 08:10 PM
If your looking at the Kobra's, I'd suggest trying to find one and shoot it first. As Ben said, if you like your head up, its probably not going to be an issue (other than maybe the whole sight being in your face), but if you shoot naturaly with the iron sights, an Aimpoint (or something similar) mounted low and forward, is what your looking for.

The Kobras are well made (as are most things Russian), but for me, they take all the handiness and shootability out of the gun. I'm a "head down, nose to the top cover" shooter, and accustomed to iron sighted rifles cheek welds, which you still get with a forward mounted, cowitnessed Aimpoint. The rifle shoulders and shoots just like it always did with the iron sights alone. Snapshots, even at longer ranges, are very natural, fast and easy. There is noting in your face to block your field of view, and it also isnt in the way of handling or your gear if your wearing any.

Another advantage to the Aimpoints is, you can use them like the old Trijicon OEG's, simply by closing the front cover and setting the dot to a comfortable level (you shoot both eyes open, the right eye see's the dot, the left the target, and your brain does the rest). Unlike the OEG's and some other tritium/fiber optics, you dont get the "fade" or loss of the aiming point when you go from light to dark, or vice versa. You also no longer need the annoying "killflash" many people put on the Aimpoints to stop the front glass from "flashing". Personally, those things drive me crazy.

As far as the "Yeah, but it's an AK. 9MOA is all the precision you need." comment, I have to disagree. I have or have had AK's across the price range of whats available and regardless of cost, and with ammo they like, 3-4" at 100 yards, and many times, 200 yards (although usually slightly larger), is the norm and not at all unusual. My AK's with Aimpoints, shoot very much the same as my AR's with the same model Aimpoints on them, and at the same distances when shot from field positions. I find the 4 moa dot on the Aimpoints I have to be fine, up close, or out to 300 yards. With 0-100 being the most realistic use. I think this is one case where the "compromise" is the better choice, as you dont end up lacking on one end or the other.

conw
June 4, 2009, 08:34 PM
"Kobra...when your target is close enough to reach out and touch you" (From their site :evil:)http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/media/cobra100.jpg

TheWarhammer
June 4, 2009, 08:45 PM
Along similar lines to the discussion so far, I too am looking for a sight to mount on an Ultimak rail. What I want is a dot sight with about 2X magnification. My thought is that such a sight would give me a little magnification if I close one eye, but would still be usable as a standard dot sight for closer work simply by leaving both eyes open. I think I need to get a sight that has the magnification built in. All of the sights I've looked at that use an add-on magnification unit don't work well in a forward mount/scout configuration. I also want it to mount low enough to co-witness the iron sights. I'm fine with just a standard dot reticle; I don't really need multiple reticles or multiple color options. Anyone have recommendations for such a sight?

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