[NIGHTWATCH]

Would closing our southern border be suicide for any U.S. president? :(

Im not talking about the political. Im talking about the multi-billion dollar industry of the drug trade. Is the real reason our borders not being closed and that tens of millions of illegals are entering this country because....

if any president were to actually seal the border, he would be killed ? :scrutiny:

Think about this before you answer.

[Brett Bellmore]

No.

First, that's what the Secret Service are for.

Second, you'd have to close the border a heck of a lot tighter to stop drugs, than to stop illegal immigration. It's unlikely our government could more than inconvenience the drug trade, even if it made an all out effort.

Third, even if they did manage to close the border to drug shipments, do you really suppose that drugs can't be manufactured domestically? Might hike the price a little, but that's about it. Importing them is a matter of economy, not an absolute necessity.

[BryanP]

do you really suppose that drugs can't be manufactured domestically?

Marijuana and meth, sure, easy. Finding a North American source for coca leaves would be a bit more problematical. As for opium poppies, I couldn't hazard a guess.

[NIGHTWATCH]

THINK.

Think about the cost of crime related to drugs.

THINK.

Think about the human cost relating to drugs as addictions, job loss, divorce, etc.

THINK.

Think about the cost to the taxpayer in fighting a "War on Drugs" which is amounting to a war on the people.

THINK.

Think about the amount of money we pay to foreign nations.

THINK.

And last but not least, THINK about the cost, all, of september 11th to this nation.

THINK

Now, can there be any reason not to build an unbreachable wall on our borders???

[Justin]

Because you can go under, over, or around any wall built.

Because if people want to throw their lives away on drugs, they will, and there's nothing you can do to stop them, wall or no.

Because this isn't East fricken' Germany.

[Triad]

NIGHTWATCH, I think that FARC or one of the cartels would have already tried it if they thought it would help them. I doubt if they would need more reason than they already have.

[greyhound]

Second, you'd have to close the border a heck of a lot tighter to stop drugs, than to stop illegal immigration.

I agree, stopping drugs and stopping illegal immigration are two separate things.

I am amazed that in poll after poll, Americans are by wide margins in favor of ending/slowing down illegal immigration, yet both Republicans and Democrats alike will not do anything about the problem.

Will there come a day when either a career politician will get kicked out over this issue, or a new one elected on a seal the border/kick out the illegals platform?

[Mark Tyson]

If FARC or a cartel or someone even attempted something like that on an elected official, it would bring down a lot of heat on them. Bad for business. Even if you could somehow seal the Mexican border they'd figure a way of getting it into the country. Prices would go up, certainly, but nothing's going to stop people from doing it.

[Standing Wolf]

Borders? We have borders somewhere?

[C.R.Sam]

If goin to stop drugs and/or illegals from comin in like the tide...

Would have to close off southern AND northern borders.
And really ratchet up sea/air port security.

That would gore a whole herd of oxen.

And hamper one of the largest industries extant.

Sam

[Erik]

No.

[Brett Bellmore]

"Marijuana and meth, sure, easy. Finding a North American source for coca leaves would be a bit more problematical. As for opium poppies, I couldn't hazard a guess."

Both could be raised in disguised greenhouses, as pot frequently is now. Importation just happens to be cheaper.

[NIGHTWATCH]

So we can support a war against our own citizens.

We can do nothing to halt the flow of drugs and illegals coming into this country, filling our streets and prisons.

We can sit back and watch as our civil liberties come under further infringement in the name of public safety (el acto de patrioto) and wait for the next "unthinkable" to happen, but building a wall that would make china's look like a curb is out of the question? :rolleyes:

[Kaylee]

NIGHTWATCH --

It's not that building a wall is impossible.
It's that building a wall is pointless.

As the French learned once opon a time... you build a Maginot Line, and the bad guys will just walk around. There are THOUSANDS of MILES of border and open coastline around the US. And it's a whole lot easier to get a Cessna full of coke round a wall than a Panzer Division I'd bet. :)

And even if we bankrupted the Treasury (I mean more than we already have) who's going to man these thousands of miles of defenses? If the TSA is any indication, a bunch of low-rent folks. (irony of ironies, I'd bet a fair amount of 'em recent "immigrants" themselves, especially if you're looking for folks near the border who'll work cheap).

So... add bribery to your list of ways in the door.

And even if you could somehow change human nature at the border... you've just made the domestic drug stuff more appealing. Less folks doing imported coke means more folks doing domestic meth.. meaning more meth labs in suburban bathtups and more pot farms in the national forests.

Talk about your tax dollars at work. :)

[TheeBadOne]

N.A.F.T.A. ........... :fire:

[Ryder]

Drugs don't seem to have a problem finding their way into our prisons. That is a pretty good example of an attempt at high security . I don't see anybody killing the prison wardens.

Trying to control people is an excercise in futility.

[standingbear]

well said justin.

[NIGHTWATCH]

Ok, Im convinced. I am beating a dead horse. :( .... :scrutiny: ...New question...:evil:

Its pretty much agreed to here judging from the responses that we have little control if any on securing our borders and halting the drug cartels, correct?

What possible argument can anyone now make against the Libertarian position of open borders and legalized drugs???

Please dont tell me that the government needs to have some measure of control when I have been totally convinced that they in fact have none. :rolleyes:

[pcf]

Nightwatch,
The only argument I can present is that we can already see what drugs, legal or illegal, already do in the hands of irresponsible people. Anyone that has lost familiy members or friends to DWI know what irresponsiblity can do. The last thing that needs to happen is the government giving a green light to meth, heroin, or cocaine (would it really matter?). The problem isn't the drugs it's the irresponsible people. And for the hippies that say marijuana is a nonviolent, peace-loving drug they have never ripped off a drug dealer. The only way to stop drugs is to eliminate the demand, the only way that will is happen is with things like responsibility, parent involvement, generally the same thing that are needed to produce responsible members of society.

[NIGHTWATCH]

I agree that it falls on irresponsible people. That we cant change. And the morally correct answer you put forth is right on but immpossible. So, are we to conclude that we are helpless? That there is no cure? No answer? :rolleyes:

[Chris Rhines]

Short answer - yes.

Long answer - before we start talking about solutions, let's be sure that we have a problem. I admit that I haven't made a detailed study of the issue, but I see no particular reason that the plague of illegal immigrants or illegal drugs really represent a threat to me or mine.

- Chris

[Mark Tyson]

Long answer - before we start talking about solutions, let's be sure that we have a problem. I admit that I haven't made a detailed study of the issue, but I see no particular reason that the plague of illegal immigrants or illegal drugs really represent a threat to me or mine.

Well, drug abuse is a problem, but a "war on drugs" isn't the solution. Drug abuse may not threaten you personally, but it threatens people in other parts of the country rather directly. It's a personal problem and a health problem, not an LE problem. Actually, I think it's a national security problem - but not the way conservatives allege. The artificially high prices of drugs allows terror groups to finance their campaigns. Take away the war on drugs, the price goes down, and they have to resort to other means of raising money. Of course, it also means drug consumption probably goes up here. By how much? Who knows. I think the least the government should do is adopt a harm reduction strategy the way some European countries do.

[Peetmoss]

Well if the Goverment acctually made drugs legal nobody could afford them:D, unless you were one of the elite. Prices would go up 5 fold at least in the PRNY.

[Don Gwinn]

THINK

Now, can there be any reason not to build an unbreachable wall on our borders???


Uh, having THOUGHT about it, yes. An "unbreachable wall on our borders" is a pipe dream. You lecture people to "think", but it sounds like your idea could use more thought.

[feedthehogs]

Drug money, either illegal profits or funds spend for treatment and fighting against is weaved into our economy pretty heavy.
Never happen.

First experience with drug money was about 15 years ago when one of my mechanics collected for a bill after working on a go fast boat behind this house. He said there were 5 guys, no one spoke english and they had multiple sacks of cash laying around. They grabbed a handfull of hundreds out of a bag and put it on the counter and motioned for him to like take what he needed and go.

A few days later in the paper, the house was raided at 5am and all were arrested. The FBI called me and the mechanic down to the office because they found one of my invoices in the house.

They wanted the mechanic to identify the people from pictures that had been lying around the house. They were trying to make sure they rounded up everyone.

I almost fell out of my chair when my mechanic said, "I don't know one from the other. They all look alike to me."

Long answer - before we start talking about solutions, let's be sure that we have a problem. I admit that I haven't made a detailed study of the issue, but I see no particular reason that the plague of illegal immigrants or illegal drugs really represent a threat to me or mine.

Half the guys in prison are from drug related arrests. Your tax dollars supporting them are affecting you.
Just because they havn't hit you or your house yet doesn't mean there is no problem.
When was the last time you took a trip to the hood?
Get a copy of Ghettopoly and welcome to the real world.
Count yourself lucky.