[Leeroy]

I know this ones been batted around but bear with me.
Having trouble getting primers below flush.This is once fired Winchester .45 acp that I bought new and shot.Using Winchester large/large magnum pistol primers.Tried RCBS hand press and Dillon 550 with same results.
Someone suggested this could be ammo produced for military by Winchester and therefore would have a primer crimp that would cause trouble.How can I tell if this has said crimp? There is nothing on the headstamp to indicate any difference.
And what should the primer pockets and primers dimensions be?

[faire bien de...!]

The crimped primer pockets have a sharp edge around the outside that has to be removed before it can be reprimed and it is very noticeable when compared to the rounded edge of commercial cases. I wouldn't think that is the problem your experiencing, unless the ammo you bought is decades old, but I guess you never know. I've used all the came components you mentioned with the RCBS hand priming tool as well and haven't had any problems. Maybe that batch of brass was made with shallow pockets? I can't tell for sure without seeing it, but I'm sure someone here will have a good answer for you.

[Jacka L Ope]

How can I tell if this has said crimp?

You should be able to see the tools marks made by the crimping tool (case on the left):

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a62/lakcaJLOpe/PrimerCrimp.jpg

If present, there are various swage and cutting tools available to remove the military crimp.

Good luck! http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a62/lakcaJLOpe/beerchug.gif

[jcwit]

Are you cleaning your primer pockets prior to priming? Could be dirt/residue in the pocket.

Man jack a lope thats really removing the crimp, when I use a countersink I usually don't even come close to that much countersink. Usually prefer the tools made for the purpose.

[Walkalong]

That is a bit extreme.

[loadedround]

Wow Jackalope! Great pics though. :)

[Jacka L Ope]

Usually prefer the tools made for the purpose.

So do I and which I did - an RCBS Trim Mate Case Prep Center. While I'm at it, I also ream and uniform the primer pocket, square the bottom corners so that I seat primers to a uniform depth of approximately .006" below flush (industry max. seating depth is .008"). It's an extra margin of safety against slam-fires in my military-style autoloaders and has worked fine for me.

Cheers! http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a62/lakcaJLOpe/beerchug.gif

[D. Manley]

That is a bit extreme.

Having just a while ago finished prepping 3,000 crimped WCC cases, I don't want to see another one for a while. Regarding the pic above I guess what works...works, but I don't go nearly so far. On military pistol brass (boxer primed, of course) I find that a high percentage of the crimps are removed just by depriming sufficient to seat a primer normally and just a "bump" with the Dillon Super Swage is all that's required to seat 100%. Seems to me when properly adjusted, only 1 out of 20 cases or so will offer any resistance to speak of while swaging. I found on my virgin run with the Dillon Swager that it don't take much resistance to equal over-sized primer pockets.

[Shoney]

Primer Pocket Depths ("in thousands" SAAMI Specs)
Large Pistol
0.118" to 0.122"

[rondog]

Those Win .45 cases don't say "NT" on them do they?

[Drail]

Over time the crud that accumulates in the pocket can stop the primer from seating fully. Most people never clean the pockets. I only clean them when they're really nasty. I have found that having them fully seated makes them more sensitive to a light strike on a competition gun with very light springs. If the firing pin has to finish seating it and then fire it you're losing some energy. Also make sure that your priming tool is allowing a full seating stroke and that you're not being held off the bottom of the case pocket by some type of mechanical stop on the tool. I seat primers (mostly Federal) with a cheap single stage Lee press that is set up for priming only and seat until I can just start to feel the primer being ever so slightly crushed just by the way it feels. If it doesn't seat all the way I can feel it without even looking at it. And no, I've never had one pop while seating.

[Kernel]

Leeroy, any chance you were trying to seat large rifle primers into large pistol pockets by mistake? That would fit the M. O. below.

SAAMI specs for primer pocket depths are as follows:

Small Pistol/Small Rifle/Large Pistol....: 0.118" to 0.122"
Large Rifle....................................: 0.128" to 0.132"

Manufacturer's tolerances vary, but primers are made to fit approximately 0.005" bellow flush.

The thing to understand is LARGE RIFLE PRIMERS ARE TALLER, which is okay because LARGE RIFLE PRIMER POCKETS ARE DEEPER.

Small pistol, small rifle, and large pistol primers (and pockets) are all the same height (depth).

Large rifle primers (and pockets) are different, their height (and depth) is unique.

The safety rules to remember are:
#1. Don't put a large rifle primer in a large pistol pocket - the primer may sit flush or stick out so far there may be a danger of slam fires.
#2. Don't put a large pistol primer in a large rifle pocket - the primer will seat very deep. So deep there may be issues with misfires, hang fires, and/or light firing pin strikes.

[Leeroy]

Thanks for all the excellent replies! Now I see it is not crimped.And they are large pistol primers.
Can anyone measure pocket depth and diameter on their brass?
This Winchester brass seems to be too shallow and not wide enough.
Searching around it seems like I am not the only one having trouble reloading with Wal-mart bought Winchester "value pack".

[Shoney]

Leeroy
The end of the caliper away from the dial should have a reduced pointed blunt edge on the slide. This is used to measure depth by placing the caliper at zero, putting the flat end snug against the head of the case above the primer hole, then adjusting the caliper until is bottoms out in the primer hole. Make sure it is at the edge of the hole, not in the flash hole. Now read the depth on the gauge.

[Leeroy]

10-4 thats what I've been doing and getting.1175 .primer pocket depth
.118 primer depth.

Just wondering if pockets depth are same as everyone elses?

Also:
.21 primer diameter
.204 pocket diameter.
Primer specs meet SAAMI-don't know specs on pockets.....

[MkgReloader]

I load 45acp at least once a week using mixed brass picked up at the range. I've noticed that if I have a primer that goes in really hard, it's almost always a Winchester case. No idea why. In fact a couple of years ago I got mad, sorted my brass, and threw all the Winchester 45's away. I've since started using them again and still experience the primer that goes in hard - had several last night - all Winchesters.

[FROGO207]

Probably a foolish question now but did you save any of the old spent primers? They could be measured also if you did. This may prove interesting. Could be another WM gotcha!! Might even be Chinese copies of Win brass.

[Rodentman]

Very interesting! I just finished loading some .357 Win brass, brand new unfired. I used SP mag primers and they were the hardest primers to seat ever. I used some CCI and a few Rems. The Rems seated easier, but I kept checking my Lee tool to see if something was jammed in it.

I was really surprised at this.

[rokchucker]

I am a new reloader, but ALL of my 45 acp brass is winchester white box stuff from walmart. Not a single problem seating primers. I am using winchester primers right now though, and the RCBS hand priming tool.....

[Leeroy]

I did measure the spent primers and they are the same specs as new primers.
Thats why I was hoping someone here could measure their pocket diameters and depth so I could compare and possibly rule out the brass as the problem.........Anyone?

[MkgReloader]

I am a new reloader, but ALL of my 45 acp brass is winchester white box stuff from walmart. Not a single problem seating primers. I am using winchester primers right now

The problems I noted were with CCI and Remington primers. I just got some Winchester primers and will try them.

[FROGO207]

The only problems with primers in the past I have had were the PMC ones. They were OK but insertion was difficult, I reasoned it to being harder metal or metric measurements that did not match US production. I have since learned they probably were Wolf and of the best quality. Most of my components are at least 6 months old and have seen no problems so far. Now I will use the calipers for a while with my new ones.

[Mal H]

Leeroy, I'm practically positive you can rule out the brass as a problem. But, to satisfy your curiosity (I know how it is, trust me ;) ), here are some pocket measurements:

Unfired Starline
Diam = 0.206
Depth = 0.119

Fired R-P
Diam = 0.206
Depth = 0.117

Fired Win
Diam = 0.205
Depth = 0.117

I see that you measured 0.118" as the primer depth. That is an invalid measurement because the anvil is almost always sticking out a good distance and the seating process pushes it up tight against the primer pellet. To get an accurate primer depth, you need to seat an unused primer, decap it without deforming it, and then measure it. Or, if possible, measure only the primer cup top to bottom by keeping the caliper away from the anvil.

Now, having said and done all that, I can pretty much assure you it isn't the components causing the problem. When you used the RCBS hand seating tool, did you squeeze the handle as tight as possible? Don't try to go on feel, just squeeze and have faith that they machined the parts correctly to properly seat the primer.