300 Win Mag Vs, 300 Wby Mag in a 24 inch tube..any practical differences??


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saturno_v
June 4, 2009, 11:03 AM
I was talking to a manager in a gun shop and he told me that the Weatherby Vanguard in 300 Wby Magnum outsell the 300 Win Mag by 2 to 1 if not more...

Now, the Weatherby round show some impressive ballistics numbers for sure if you look on the Weatherby web site but the trick is that these figures are intended for a 26" barrel....and in a such high pressure, high velocity, slow burning round, 2" of barrel length can affect performance significantly...

As per the subject line, I wonder if in a 24" barrel the difference between the Win Mag and the Wby Mag is negligible....

Once the Vanguard is a 24" barrel rifle, the 300 Win Mag wouldn't be the better choice considering the lower cost of ammo and more brand selection?? (if you do not reload)

In the Hornady catalog, the figures for both rounds (tested in a standard 24" pipe) are within 200-300 ft/lb from each other...not much in terms of % considering that they are 3000++ ft/lb rounds to begin with..

What about bullet weight selection?? Are they equal or one of the two has an edge??

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ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 11:18 AM
The .300 Wby is still pretty much the king of the .30 caliber sporting rounds. Shoots flat, hits hard (on both ends), been around for a long time. I think Remington lists a similar cartridge, but I've never actually seen one.

But... Even if you do reload, the brass is expensive, too.

I don't think that 2" will take away its ballistic advantage over the .300 WinMag in the same gun. Both are slow-burning, high-volume. However, if I got a .300 Wby, I'd buy dies along with the rifle. It might never even see a factory round. I'd consider that, and most other Weatherby rounds, to be reloader's rounds.

The only .300 Wby I've enjoyed shooting had a muzzle brake. (BTW Weatherby's muzzle brake works great, sucker feels like a .270, but a brake is a problem if you want a hunting rifle.)

What the "advantage" is, depends on what you plan to do with it.

Shooting Moose from two counties away? Well worth it. You're pushing the limits, and the Weatherby pushes them farther. This is probably not what most people do, though.

Water jugs at 500 yards? Just click your scope up a bit more with the WinMag and save a LOT of cash.:) The WinMag is cannon enough.

Hunting at 300 yards? Probably no practical difference other than that the WinMag will feel like you hit your shoulder with a 4 lb. sledge, as opposed to the 10 lb. sledge of the Weatherby.

gvnwst
June 4, 2009, 11:32 AM
I think Remington lists a similar cartridge, but I've never actually seen one.

The .300 RUM?

ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 11:39 AM
That's it, I think. But like I said, I've never seen one, or a rifle with the chambering. I've seen and shot .300 Weatherby rifles, since I was a kid (when someone must have thought it was funny to let me try the thing :D).

BTW Remington's ballistics tables are all based on 24" test barrels. Their version of the .300 Weatherby (low-end Express) still beats their versions of the .300 WinMag by 160 fps in a 24" barrel.

Uncle Mike
June 4, 2009, 11:50 AM
I think the store in which you were in may have had a larger profit margine on the 300 weatherby than the 300 winchester.

Either one of those fire snortin' ear bustin' shoulder thumpin' artillery round will do you just fine!

They are very close in relation to ballistics, I do not think that a animal blasted with either one would be able to tell the difference in as to which caliber caused his death.

If you have never, or just occasionally, shot any one of the 'pound o' powder' burnin' 300 mags(300 WBY, 300 WIN, 300 Ultra Mag) you are in for a real treat.

Lots of recoil, if that is a factor for you, lots of noise, lots of cost... and the majority of people shooting these big 300's don't 'really' need one. Opinion Only! No fact involved in this statement! hehehe

Do the math, asArmedbear said, if yo' gonna be poppin' elk and such at 500y or h2o jugs at the same, one of the big magnums may be for you.

In reality a 300 Win launching Hornady Heavy Magnums, say 180gr will run right along with the 300 WBY..... But in all this excitement I forgot to ask... do you feel you need this kind of service from a rifle.... well do ya'! :D

ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 11:58 AM
I think the store in which you were in may have had a larger profit margine on the 300 weatherby than the 300 winchester.


If not the rifle, then the ammo for sure. Can't find the .300 Wby ammo at Wal-Mart, either.:D

saturno_v
June 4, 2009, 11:58 AM
My wife gave me a Weatherby Vanguard in .338 Win Mag in March for my birthday....so I do enjoy a little bit of shoulder pounding...LOL :D:D

I did already own a 30-06....did not feel the need for a 300 Mag.....I thought that the 338 would offer more "diversity" to my collection....

ArmedBear

Hornady official numbers for the 2 rounds (24" test barrel) show an average advantage of ~7 % for the 300 Wby over the 300 Win Mag.....and if you get the Hornady 300 Win Heavy Magnum 180 gr. load they are ballistic twins up to the single ft/lb.....

So do you think is worth the extra cost???

saturno_v
June 4, 2009, 12:03 PM
Guys don't get me wrong...the store manager that told me this was actually saying that in his own opinion the 300 Win Mag in a Vanguard was, overall, the better proposition.....he was commenting the fact that people did not realize that the impressive ballistic of the 300 Wby in the Weatherby publications were intended for 26" barrels....

He was saying that the Vanguard 300 Win Mag should outsell the 300 Wby, not the other way around....

Uncle Mike
June 4, 2009, 12:08 PM
Well.... now thats a rifle of a different caliber!:D

ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 12:16 PM
Reviews I've read of the Hornady factory hot loads have been mixed, ranging from "negligible difference between that and the regular one" to "worth 100 fps+ with heavier bullets." Haven't tried them, myself. Bought a Hornady press instead.

The problem lies with accuracy. I gave up about 50 fps vs. the book max, with a handload for my .30-06 Vanguard. I still get faster-than-factory velocity, and I get 1 3/8" test groups - AT 200 YARDS -- doing nothing special with the brass, and not even weighing each powder charge. I've shot some premium factory hunting ammo through it, and it grouped 2 1/2" at 100 yards, while some cheap stuff shot close to MOA.

There's no telling whether that Hornady Heavy Magnum load will shoot worth crap in a given rifle. Relying on one particular factory load can be a problem. It might shoot great, or it might shoot 2" groups at 100 yards -- a real bummer with a round you might want to use past 400 yards, where it can't keep 'em on a pie plate from a machine rest.

The .300 Weatherby will get that same performance from different manufacturers. At least you can try and find one that works best. That's something I'm learning as I handload: you don't want to place all your bets on only one load, because that particular load might not shoot well.

However... IMO if you already have a .338 WinMag, you have a very fine rifle for large game. I'd be unlikely to prioritize getting a .300 WinMag, too, if I had a .338.

If I had the .338 already, and caught the Weatherby bug, I might look at some of the more exotic but really unique rounds like the .240 and .257. Some of the flattest-shooting cartridges you can get, that still work on big game (reportedly much bigger than one would think, too, due to their insane velocities). Barrel life? Who knows.:)

A lot depends on the question, "What for?"

JWF III
June 4, 2009, 12:21 PM
It doesn't matter if the barrel is 32" or 18 ", the Weatherby cartridge will still out perform the Winchester. By how much might change. Not by who.

BTW- I shoot the WinMag. It's never been not enough gun for a .308 diameter bullet.

Wyman

ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 12:25 PM
the WinMag. It's never been not enough gun for a .308 diameter bullet.


Yeah. That's another consideration. Is it necessary to squeeze another 200 fps out of that bullet, or does it make more sense to lug a heavier slug instead?

saturno_v
June 4, 2009, 12:37 PM
JWF III

Yes of course it will always outperform the Win Mag (after all the case is bigger..simple math) the question is by how much and if that difference is worth the extra cost...7% (Hornady values) doesn't seem a lot to me...


ArmedBear

Right now I think I would like to buy an African cartridge, again, for collection diversity purpose...I really like the 375 H&H because of the decent long range performance but I'm tempted by the 458 Lott as well even if I'm not a fan of the "rainbow" cartridges....

A friend of mine told me to leave alone the 375 (after all I have a 338 already) and get the 458....a more "different" firearm compared to what I own...


Before getting the 338 Win Mag I was tempted by the incredible 338-378 Wby Mag....a monster cartridge from another world....when you compute the ballistic numbers for the 300 gr. Sierra....oh boy!!!....that thing has the capability to go through a grizzly brisket to butt at 1000+ yards!!! :D:D


But the cost of the rifle itself ($1600+) and $120 a box for the ammo convinced me otherwise..I do not reload....burning six $20 federal reserve notes for one hour, at best, at the range is too much even for a crazy gun lover!!! So I decided for a more "human" 338 Win Mag and my wife complied...:D:D

Now I'm waiting for the hysteria to pass and get a .223 to cover the small caliber high velocity part of the equation in my safe....

I heard incredible things about the 257.....comparable to a 338-378 on a smaller scale of course...what can you tell me about it???

gvnwst
June 4, 2009, 12:42 PM
A friend of mine told me to leave alone the 375 (after all I have a 338 already) and get the 458....a more "different" firearm compared to what I own...

Get a .416 ridgby, best of both worlds. ;) :D

ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 12:45 PM
Never had one.

All I know is the numbers it turns in, and one thing that might be the most important...

Of all the stuff he played with, AFAIK the .257 Weatherby was Roy Weatherby's personal favorite cartridge. Seems he felt it was the perfect balance of what he really liked.

(AFAIK the .338-378, created by a small group of wildcatters including Elmer Keith, was Keith's favorite round.)

saturno_v
June 4, 2009, 12:54 PM
If i remember correctly, the 338-378 Keith-Thompson Magnum is shorter than the 338-378 Wby Mag...are they interchangeable?? They should be....I saw an original 338-378 KT Magnum rifle with a fantastic walnut stock for sale at $6000+ few months ago....a real treat for your eyes...


The 338-378, with the right bullet, I'm convinced it can take an elephant cleanly, caliber laws notwithstanding in some countries...

An experienced African hunter told me that it would be safe to lower a bit the load when hunting in Africa with one because of the high temperatures...

It is borderline hilarious that in some countries you cannot use the 338-378 even for a lion....Simba would be skewered end to end at one mile with a 338-378....

ArmedBear
June 4, 2009, 01:00 PM
are they interchangeable??

I'm not sure. Keith refers to the rounds as being interchangeable in principle, but that may not have meant that the dimensions matched.

I forget what cartridge the .338-378 KT was based on, but it was some existing brass, cut a little and necked down. My guess (and it's a guess) is that Weatherby would have done the same thing with their own Weatherby brass, so it's the same idea, probably similar powder, etc., but not exactly the same chamber.

I'd assume they're not interchangeable.

(I also didn't know there were many rifles out there in .338-378 KT. I thought that the round was a wildcat, and only Weatherby brought their version to market as a standard factory round.)

saturno_v
June 4, 2009, 01:04 PM
The rifle that I saw was a custom piece, definitely not a production run....the craftmanship and materials of the sling alone was mouth watering....I suspect at $6000+ was a very good deal, it could have fetched easily much more...

dubbleA
June 4, 2009, 01:48 PM
I've got more toy's that guy rightfully should have, well that's what the mrs tells me. Last count probably a dozen .30 cals and hands down my choice with the 24 inch barreled Vanguard is in 300 Win mag.
The bottom line is the 300 win is much cheaper to shoot, going to recoil less, less muzzle flash and will give up very little in the 24" barrel to the bigger wby round. Game will never know the difference. Heck for a 300 yard BG rifle, the choice would be a Vanguard youth model in .308 Win. :)

Vern Humphrey
June 4, 2009, 01:58 PM
If i remember correctly, the 338-378 Keith-Thompson Magnum is shorter than the 338-378 Wby Mag...are they interchangeable?? They should be....
In a word, no. They are belted rounds and if sized to headspace on the belt (not on the shoulder, as most handloaders do) both can be fired in the longer chamber. But I suspect you will have a lot of split shoulders in the shorter case -- and at the cost of the brass, that's $$$ down the drain.

saturno_v
June 4, 2009, 04:06 PM
Vern

You are absolutely right.....stupid observation of mine...I got confused by the fact that you can fire a 458 Win Mag in a 458 Lott chambered rifle (both have the belt) but I forgot that these 458s don't have shoulders!!!

Vern Humphrey
June 4, 2009, 04:31 PM
I made that mistake myself -- when I got Bigfoot Wallace, my custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen there was a box of Remington .35 Whelens with it. Since the Springfield has a claw extractor, it can fire rounds that don't headspace in the chamber.

Every one I fired split the shoulders.

hogmanahoo.com
June 5, 2009, 10:25 AM
a man named bell killed over 1000 elephants using a 275 rigby

elktrout
June 5, 2009, 10:58 PM
Ballistics in loads vary, whether factory loaded or hand loaded according to a loading manual. We all know that, but the key is to make certain that the ballistics you fall in love with are really true. Case in point, my dad has a Vanguard in 300 Wby with the 24 inch barrel. He bought some Federal Premium factory loads with 180 Nosler Partitions, not cheap stuff by a long shot. I chronographed them and could not believe it: 2900 fps average velocity. Conversely, I hand loaded the same bullet according to the manual, and it averaged more than 3200 fps.

My point: There are lots of guys shooting 300 Wby rounds that are not up to Wby ballistics, killing game with them, and thinking they are the cat's meow when in fact they are shooting rounds that are less than some 300 Winnies.

If I did not handload, I would buy the 300 Win mag.

SpeedAKL
June 6, 2009, 12:59 AM
I've always been awed by the ballistics of the Weatherby Mags, in addition to the sheer size of the things. Problem is, I've also never had the need or finances necessary to actually get one:)

Sunray
June 6, 2009, 01:08 AM
"...lower cost of ammo and more brand selection?? (if you do not reload)..." Exactly. Even if you do reload, adding the word 'Weatherby', to anything, increases the price. You won't likely find any Weatherby cartridge in smaller places either. .300 Win Mag is usually easy to get in most places. A Weatherby cartridge is not. Only matters if you get out in the boonies only to find you left your ammo on the kitchen table.

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