[StressPuppy]

Ok, I am thinking about buying a Glock (maybe 19) and I need some help getting educated. I am comfortable with guns and such, but each gun has its own history and nuances. I have heard about different generations of Glocks, drop free vs non-drop free mags, maintenance, etc.

Where can I go to get the low down on all the "stuff" so that I can be an informed purchaser?

Thanks!

[Graystar]

Lots of info here:
http://glockmeister.com/glockinf.shtml

This should be interesting to watch:
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=12709711

This is a pretty good price:
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=12695587

Shipping is 20, 15-20 to receive...just over 500 bucks. So if you can't find one for less than 510 or so, consider Gunbroker. But you should be able to find them for $479 or so.

Good luck!

[dsk]

The Glock 19 is a great one to start with. You may find you won't even need any of the other Glocks afterwards, especially if you can snag some hi-caps for the G19.

[StressPuppy]

I have 8 handguns right now, 2 of them 1911s. I love them and I am VERY accurate with them, but when it comes to CCW, they are tanks. Not easy to conceal and get heavy by the end of the day. So I started looking at other options. Right now I am looking at Kahr K9 or P9, Glock 19 or Walther P99. Don't want to go too small (G26) because it doesn't fit in my hand. Had a SIG226 and loved it, but it was also big and bulky.

So I am looking to learn as much as I can about these guns. Reading where I can and search this site. But those small things are some times hard to find. So I am hoping for some detailed Glock help on:

1) different generations and what has been changed
2) Mags - drop free and non-; what is the real difference (besides $$$)


Glockmeister seems to have some good info on what to do with your Glock and how to treat it, but I need some help with know what I am looking for. I haven't decided if it will be a new or used purchase, so the more I know, the better.

Thanks!!!!

[BamBam]

Great Glock site:

http://www.glocktalk.com/

Do a search to find anything you want to know.

[tlhelmer]

IMHO, The 19/23/32 size pistols are among the best pistols as far as overall size. You can easily carry it and it also great at the range.

I am a big fan of Glock pistols and the G-19 is one of the best. It can hold 15 + 1 rounds of 9mm. It is ultra reliable and for me points most naturally. The G-23 holds 13 rounds of .40 S&W and the G-32 hold 13 rounds of .357 Sig if you decide on a different caliber.

BamBam is right Glocktalk is a great source of Glock info.

Good luck.

[Gary G23]

Get a 3rd generation gun (it will have a light rail). Use FML magazines (see Glockmeister sight for photos). Change the followers in both the 10rd and 15rd mags to ones that have 9mm3 stamped on them. Use good ammo and you'll be good to go.

[jc2]

Where can I go to get the low down on all the "stuff" so that I can be an informed purchaser?
If that is what you really want, here is a good link (and antidote for all the Kool-Aide):

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/gindex.html

If you are looking at the Glock 19, be sure and check out these two articles in particular:

NYPD's Phase Three Malfunctions
Glock's Latest Problems

[saddlebum]

i had had a glock ,but it reminded me too much of my exwife: thick & ugly saddlebum

[dsk]

Take whatever you read at The Gun Zone with a grain of salt. It can be a good heads-up, but is also a lopsided account of Glock problems. The truth is ALL handguns have design flaws somewhere. There isn't a design out there without some sort of potential for breakage or malfunction.

[Black Snowman]

The "Drop-Free" are full metal lined (FML) and will drop completely from the mag well reguardless of how many rounds are loaded. The "Non-Drop-Free" are metal on 3 sides and bulge when loaded so that they have to be pulled from the magazine well if you are removing a magazine that's roughly half or more loaded.

I have a 1st gen Glock 24P, their 1st competition model, and I've never had a problem with it that wasn't because I didn't seat my bullets past MOAL ;)

I have two 10 round and two 15 round FML magazines and I've put a total of about 6000 rounds through the gun give a take a thousand. I'm now shopping for a replacement recoil spring because the plastic captured guide rod is getting a little torn up.

I'm not really current on what's differant between the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen frames other than cosmetics / ergos / nifty rail. I'm not sure if there are any.

[StressPuppy]

Ok, on the DF and NDF mags --- If the mag is empty, will it drop out without help? I am thinking of IDPA and quick mag changes (not to mention in the heat of battle!!)?

As for the different generations, after doing some searches here, I came about this GREAT thread: Glock Generations (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36907)

It is amazing all the stuff there is to learn! It is making me :what:

THANKS!

[SouthpawShootr]

Drop-free mags don't necessarily drop free from the gun. I've had a bunch that didn't. Also had a few non-drop-free mags that reliably dropped free from the gun when empty. A Glock armorer told me once that you could get your drop-free mags to fall without assistance by slightly pinching them in a vice.

BTW, I actually prefer second gen frames (no finger grooves). I only bought third gen when I didn't have a choice. As it stands I have everything except the 20, 21, 28, 31, 33, 34 & 35. Haven't had a malfunction. EVER. Just feed your gun quality ammo and you won't have a problem. I generally decline to use unjacketed (lead) bullets in my Glocks. Makes for alot of cleanup and may even cause the gun to blow up if allowed to accumulate (the barrels lead faster than conventional bores - I'm sure you've probably read about this).

[Graystar]

I think that "drop free" means that the mag will drop out of the gun while it still has ammo in it. All Glock mags are capable of dropping out of the gun when empty, as the non-drop free mags only expand when loaded with ammo.

If I remember correctly, the drop-free mag was something requested by US LE, as dropping the mag is part of the procedure for clearing a jam.

[StressPuppy]

I guess I am thinking mostly about IDPA, in which I compete. A mag with live rounds in it is not allowed to hit the ground, so drop-free in that case is not as critical. Most critical is the speed at which I can change the mags when empty.

Is there a much of a cost difference in the DF and NDF hi-cap mags?

I have held a 3rd gen and the finger grooves didn't seem to bother me. I will try again, and compare to a 2nd gen and see what I think. I would like to go new, but have bought many a used guns and would do it again, from the right source for the right price.

As for the ammo you run through it, I have read about not putting lead through the gun. Also have heard other things, with mixed comments:

- What about Wolf ammo? Good, bad, indifferent?
- How about reloads? I have been reloading my 9s and 45s for awhile. I have a very basic load for the 9 that I use that worked well in my previous pistol. I use FMJ simply for the "cleanliness" factor.

[SouthpawShootr]

Is there a much of a cost difference in the DF and NDF hi-cap mags?

Probably about a $15-20 premium for drop-free.

What about Wolf ammo? Good, bad, indifferent?

I wouldn't. The sealant has an annoying tendency to melt when the rounds come in contact with hot chambers. There's been alot of discussion about chambers in match-grade AR-15 barrels that have been ruined by deposits of this stuff. Apparently it dries quite hard. Also, these cases are typically steel or some sort of plated steel - can be hard on extractors, though I have not heard of either of these problems occurring with Glocks.

How about reloads? I have been reloading my 9s and 45s for awhile.

As long as your case dimensions are in spec you should be ok. I frequently run commercially reloaded 9mm ammo through mine. If you start reloading .40s, you've got to be more careful. Keep in mind that Glocks have a somewhat notorious reputation for unsupported chambers, so casehead blowouts can occur. You've probably read about this also. Most of the reports I've seen have been .40 (lots of reports) and .45ACP (1 that I can recall) and I believe one 10mm that let loose. Of course nobody knows whether these loads were due to weak brass (as a result of multiple reloadings) or double charges (reloading error).

[Nero Steptoe]

Stresspuppy: Anybody who refers you to "The Gun Zone" knows a lot less about Glocks than you've already figured out. Go to glocktalk.com or just about any other gun board and you'll get decent, informed opinions about Glocks. Going to "The Gun Zone" will just have you waste time reading uninformed, dishonest "spoutings" about subjects of which the author has little-to-no knowledge.

[StressPuppy]

Nero - Thanks, and after going there and reading about two sentences, I got the point. I don't mind hearing bad things. But not every company that sells as much as Glock does is ALL bad, they have to have some redeeming characteristics. And the overall quality and longevity of the product seems to show that. Problems here and there should be expected. How they handled it is a problem, but it has been resolved as far as I am aware and things are moving forward. I don't have the time and patience to dwell on the past.

I have been to GlockTalk and there is a lot of info there. Also have gone to Glockmeister and others. Lots to read!


SouthpawShootr - Thanks for the details. Xactly the info I needed. I have read about the unsupported chamber. I think I am going to stick to the 9mm, mainly because ammo is cheaper for practice and because I think the wife would be fine picking up and shooting the 9mm, but she might hesitate with the 40, and that is NOT good.


Thanks!!

[Dean Speir]

 
Going to "The Gun Zone" will just have you waste time reading uninformed, dishonest "spoutings" about subjects of which the author has little-to-no knowledge. Spoken like a true Kool Aid guzzler, Nero… you can disgreed with the content without characterizing it as "dishonest."

Now wipe the Tennifer from your chin and cite some specifics of "dishonest 'spoutings,'" otherwise it becomes evident as to the true source of the "spoutings."

You want "dishonest?" Go to GlockTalk and read Moderator DannyR's response to "G17 'Upgrades'? (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=191818)!" But then DannyR is believed by the GT Faithful to have "close ties to Smyrna," so you probably don't consider that his wildly revisionist statement that the April 1992 Product Upgrade had "(n)othing to do with safety," is a crock.

As for "little-to-no knowledge," I'll place my Glock C.V., and that of Sean McMahon (who authored the to date definitive "Phase Three Malfunction (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html)" report, against yours anyday.

If one doesn't want to hear an alternative view to the "Glock Perfection" company line, then, yeah!, The Gun Zone would probably be a waste of your time. But StressPuppy asked for information so he could educate himself, didn't he? Or are you afraid that he might not be such a willing recruit to your cause?

 

[rljan]

Try www.glockfaq.com It should answer your questions.

[DontShootMe]

Sounds like you're calling BS on Glock in general... Dont like 'em much, do ya?

Did you notice that right before your post StressPuppy said:

after going there and reading about two sentences, I got the point

[Dean Speir]

 Sounds like you're calling BS on Glock in general... Dont like 'em much, do ya? I can understand your perception, I guess… but only if you're unfamiliar with the source material.

You can start with this: Glock Hater? (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/.html) But if you'd rather get the precÃ*s, it's "like the pistol (and have owned a Model 21 from their initial release), but don't like the way the company (Glock, Inc./Glock Ges.m.b.H.) deals with its safety and malfunction problems."

Now, if StressPuppy thinks he "got the point" after only two sentences, then the only point he "got" was Nero's demonstrably jaded one.

StressPuppy asked for the lowdown on Glocks… JC2 pointed him to two specific articles, and then Nero came along like he knows something, and dismissed the entire site with his own unsupported B.S. I don't suffer fools, blusterers and poseurs like NS gladly.

 

[CZ52GUY]

...is consistent with what passes for journalism in general these days.

Anecdotal evidence passed off as incontrovertable evidence. The equation does not add up.

Nader does it with his Chicken Little claims.

The tree-huggers do it with the Global Warming (we all need to be driving Segue's, not SUV's).

If Mr. Spier wants to be taken seriously, he should be able to provide reasonable statistics indicating that Glock (based on volume and reported defects) has a design problem.

There are tragic incidents which occur every day where some inanimate object (or the engineers which designed it) are villified. Firearms in general are described as inherently unsafe by the MMM'ers and the Brady Bunch.

Sir, show us the data that is relevant to this gentleman's decision to purchase a 2003 Glock (he's leaning toward a G19).

Otherwise, from what I have read firsthand at the Gunzone, I find your "evidence" regarding Glocks indistinguishable in credibility from what I might read at jointogether or HCI...namely, Glocks are bad because I know of two incidents where something bad happened with them...just like the Gun Industry is bad, because two vile criminals stole a rifle and murdered innocent civillians in and around our nation's capital.

So far, all I've been able to conclude, is that I "might" need to be concerned about an 11+ year old pistol. That does not an entire product line convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

Regards,

CZ52'

[Brigrat]

Here is my experience with Glocks:

We are issued Glock 22's at work, 100% of them have been sent back to the factory and had parts replaced, whether it was the entire frame assembly, the Slide Stop, recoil springs, etc. We get letters from other departments that issue the G22's every couple of weeks about another Glock failure. The KB's we have had reported to us have not just occurred with re-manufactured, or reloaded ammo, but with new ammo as well.

I still carry my G22 on occasion, but not usually. I have found it to be very accurate out of the box, but not exceptional. Reliability is so-so, I have shot a couple for thousands of rounds with out a problem, and seen others that FTF, or FTE every hundred rounds or so.

Yes I feel safe carrying one, but if it was my money, I wood stick with a 9mm Glock, or buy something else.

I carry a Ruger P95 most of the time. I have fired almost 5000 rounds through it over the last year alone, without ever having and FTF, or FTE, and the pistol is at least as accurate as I am.

I don't consider myself a "Glock Hater" but I would not recommend them either (at least the Glock 40's).

FWIW, I will probably be picking up a G26 in the near future, to add to my CCW collection. It offers about the best size, round, accuracy, reliability, combination I am aware of. I cam elaborate a little on the problems we have experienced or heard of if you guys would like, but I don't think it will change the minds of the die hard Glock fans, so I don't see any value in it.

[CZ52GUY]

...To Brigrat, you have not tried to establish yourself as "the authority on the internet".

Your anecdotal experience is consistent with what many of us bring to the table within this board on a regular basis.

I was reacting to a gun rag writer accusing anyone who did not buy his so-called journalism as being a "Kool-aid drinker".

The original poster needs to evaluate the experiences relayed to him and draw his own conclusions.

But for someone to claim authoritative status based on the articles referenced is contrary to my "rules of evidence" when researching and/or evaluating the relative merits (or lack thereof) of any given product.

Best wishes,

CZ52'

[StressPuppy]

Dean Speir,

Please leave me out of this crap!!!!!!! I am no fan of flame wars.

You have stated that I should read something. I did. I took it for what I thought it was worth. Period. End of story.

To all - please don't bring this up in this thread anymore. I got the point, from both sides.

The other information to this point has been great, and I thank you all.

[Obiwan]

Glocks are not perfect (dodging lightning bolt)

No mechanical device is

The G19/G17 are the least problematic of them all.

I could swing into major Kahr bashing, but it is simply not worth the effort.

Since I know lots of Kahr owners have had no problems.
(but don't get me started)

Just like a lot of Glock owners..myself included..have had nothing but good reliability and accuracy.

[CZ52GUY]

Good luck w/your purchase.

In spite of Mr. Spier's lack of credible objective evidence, there is ample anecdotal evidence regarding Glock safety to give some folks pause.

I think you will find the vast majority of Glock owners (this one included) have been very satisfied and have a high level of confidence in their weapon.

As with any decision in life, you are faced with weighing the evidence and making your own choices.

I wish you well.

CZ52'

[another okie]

My 9mm Glocks are easy to shoot and fabulously reliable. My .40 Glock was neither, so I got rid of it. I carry a Glock 26 regularly and compete with a 17. Both are great choices. The 19 is midway between them. In some ways it is the most balanced looking Glock, and can be comfortably concealed, while still giving a full grip and big capacity. If I wanted more power I would get a .45.

[StressPuppy]

CZ52GUY and ObiWan and another okie ---- Thank you for your comments.

You are right. Nothing/Nobody is perfect and there are problems, but with the right information, a person can make and INFORMED decision.

So, with that in mind, I weighed everything and went ahead and bought the 19!!!! New Glock owner. I immediately went to the range and put 100 rounds through it. Not a hiccup, glitch, hesitation, stutter, nothing. Not to say something won't happen going forward, but....

It felt good in my hand. Easy to hold properly and aim. I am not found of the standard sights, and they will take me some time to get used to. I will probably put on night sights, but I need to decide which ones (see other thread). One of the other deciding factors was that I wanted a gun, not to big and not too small, in a caliber that I knew my wife wouldn't have trouble picking up and shooting if the need arose. .40 or .45 would make her hesitate, even with adrenaline flowing, and hesitation is very dangerous. So this is the right compromise.

Thanks to all for the advise and input, including the negative input about the Glock. I feel informed and comfortable with my decisions and I think I know what to watch out for should something start to go wrong.

It is great to have such a place to get and share advice!!!!

[CZ52GUY]

Enjoy your G19!

I have a G23 (similar model in 40S&W with pic' attached). I got it with Trijicon night sights (had equivalent sights added to my G22). I also have the Hogue Handalls (my wife found the extra bulk to the grip too big for her hands...you may not want to go that route).

Trijicon's site = http://www.trijicon.com/

Again, good luck!!

CZ52'

[harrydog]

I think that many "gun" people eventually go through a Glock phase at some point in their lives. Glocks are so abundant and heavily marketed, it seems that most gun newbies gravitate toward them. Lots of people love them, some hate them, and some are ambivalent.
I owned 3 Glocks, a 23, 17 and 19. All of them were very reliable while I had them. But they were really nothing exceptional. There are plenty of guns out there that are easily as reliable as a Glock and some of them have attributes that the Glock lacks.
But, I think it's unlikely that you'll have any problems with your Glock 19. Hope you enjoy it.

[Dean Speir]

 

CZ52GUY posts: What I see from Mr. Spier...
...is consistent with what passes for journalism in general these days.

Anecdotal evidence passed off as incontrovertable evidence. The equation does not add up. And what I see from CZ52GUY is what passes for General Education today. Not only is he unable to get my name right in any of his posts, but after drawing odious parallels with Ralph Nader and "tree-huggers," M³ers and the Brady Bunch, he then makes the claim that the various Glock reports cited are "Anecdotal evidence passed off as incontrovertable evidence." This is the type of Intellectually Dishonest sophistry and word play the antis like to use… making a greater claim for something the better to attack it… and essentially that's all CZ52GUY has done here, is "attack."

"Incontrovertible evidence?" It's information, is all, and documented information at that.

Statistical analysis is fine, but that approach doesn't carry much weight with the shooter looking at a ruined pistol and a damaged hand because he'd blithely assumed that the Glock advisory to use only factory new ammo was boilerplate legalese insisted upon by attorneys, or the cop on the NYC street trying to get back into action after a Phase 3 malfunction, all the while wondering *** happened to the vaunted "Glock Perfection." …from what I have read firsthand at the Gunzone, I find your "evidence" regarding Glocks indistinguishable in credibility from what I might read at jointogether or HCI...namely, Glocks are bad because I know of two incidents where something bad happened with them... We get back then to either the failure of this reader's education or his willingness to distort in support of his own agenda… which agenda becomes more apparent with subsequent posts:I was reacting to a gun rag writer accusing anyone who did not buy his so-called journalism as being a "Kool-aid drinker". Again, the overstatement, and the personal attack, which can only be explained if he is one of the hard corps GTers for whom Rosco Benson devised that particular coinage, and is burning under the shame of that opprobrious appellation.

And as for my "authoritative" credentials in this matter, those were established for me by Glock Inc. in Federal District Court in Uniondale, NY in some years ago. I never sought them, but Glock was anxious to keep me from taking the stand and happily stipulated that the facts that I would testify to concerning their product's catastrophic failures and unintentional discharges was true and accurate.

And speaking of anxious, StressPuppy writes: Dean Speir,

Please leave me out of this crap!!!!!!! I am no fan of flame wars.

You have stated that I should read something. I stated nothing of the sort… that was JC2… but you get credit for at least getting my name right. So, congratulations on your purchase, g'luck with it, and I genuinely wish you many years of trouble-free shooting with it.

Now, stop whining and hit the range again for another 100 rounds. If you think this was a flame war, then don't ever venture onto Assault Web or Hard Core Talk.

 

[StressPuppy]

Put another 50 through today (not enough time for more!).

And for the others, I have better things to do with my time than listen to(read) people gripping and whining about all kinds of stuff. My time is too important. I state my opinion, fairly, and leave it at that. You can take it or leave it. If someone decides to leave it, that is their choice.

As for you, I have never met you and I haven't spent a lot of time on this forum, so I have no judgement about you, other than to say you spend more time trying to argue your position than I think is necessary.

We all know what they say about opinions............. Which is why I either don't give mine or I say my peace quitely and then walk away (unless someone has a legit question).


Here is what I propose to all: If you want to argue, disagree, stand behind Glocks or slam them, please do that in one of the forums setup for that.



Thanks to all for the input. I have learned a lot (and much more than I wanted in some areas!)

I'm out. No more in this thread for me.

Later....................

[CZ52GUY]

And what I see from CZ52GUY is what passes for General Education today. Not only is he unable to get my name right in any of his posts, but after drawing odious parallels with Ralph Nader and "tree-huggers," M³ers and the Brady Bunch, he then makes the claim that the various Glock reports cited are "Anecdotal evidence passed off as incontrovertible evidence." This is the type of Intellectually Dishonest sophistry and word play the antis like to use… making a greater claim for something the better to attack it… and essentially that's all CZ52GUY has done here, is "attack."

I call them as I see them.

Your articles pointed to two instances where individuals experienced bad things with Glocks.

Those two incidents do not a compelling case provide.

The L.A. times recently posted a similar editorial from the Anti-side, describing the "carnage" associated with firearms in this country. Providing anecdotal evidence when tragedy struck without recognizing that the inanimate object was not the source of the tragedy, but the criminal human operator. The similarities in tactics were disturbing, that's why I mentioned them.


"Incontrovertible evidence?" It's information, is all, and documented information at that.

"The Gunperson's Authoritative Internet Information Resource."

Your articles call into question the quality of a product. I don't care if it's Glock, or a GE toaster oven...that individuals have had experiences with a lemon is consistent with any product that has ever been marketed. Is there a material problem with the design that is backed up by statistical evidence? A prudent consumer would be looking for that data. An authoritative source should seek to provide that type of information whether it be comprehensive, or representative (in this case, the experiences of a good size metro' police department would be useful).


Statistical analysis is fine, but that approach doesn't carry much weight with the shooter looking at a ruined pistol and a damaged hand because he'd blithely assumed that the Glock advisory to use only factory new ammo was boilerplate legalese insisted upon by attorneys, or the cop on the NYC street trying to get back into action after a Phase 3 malfunction, all the while wondering *** happened to the vaunted "Glock Perfection."

Absolutely, for the individual involved, the experience is conclusive. However, we wouldn't recall an entire product line of anything based on that one incident. The Anti's believe if any child is killed by a gun, that's one child too many, we have to get rid of these evil objects. The consistency between your application of one or two individual experiences, and the approach anti's use to justify their bogus cause is too much to ignore.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
…from what I have read firsthand at the Gunzone, I find your "evidence" regarding Glocks indistinguishable in credibility from what I might read at jointogether or HCI...namely, Glocks are bad because I know of two incidents where something bad happened with them...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We get back then to either the failure of this reader's education or his willingness to distort in support of his own agenda… which agenda becomes more apparent with subsequent posts:



Earlier you characterized my comments as "attacks"...I read this and can't help but wonder why the pot finds it so easy to call the kettle black. My level of education is sufficient to function as an analyst at a Fortune 500 company. It is also sufficient to draw my own conclusions regarding the quality (or lack thereof) of material I consume. Again, I challenge you based on your claim of "authoritative source location" to deliver the goods.

I contend that if your analytical assessment of an individual's education is based on whether they type "i-e" instead of "e-i" than you help make my case that you are way too willing to draw conclusions based on insufficient data.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was reacting to a gun rag writer accusing anyone who did not buy his so-called journalism as being a "Kool-aid drinker".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, the overstatement, and the personal attack, which can only be explained if he is one of the hard corps GTers for whom Rosco Benson devised that particular coinage, and is burning under the shame of that opprobrious appellation.

Your liberal use of the term "Kool-aid drinker" within your articles, and within posts here confirms the "pot and kettle" concerns I've raised above.

I am not a member of the GT cult. I do not worship at Eric's feet (or Gaston's either). I believe that Glock Inc. has some serious issues not the least of which is their ambiguous position regarding the value proposition of Ballistic Fingerprinting legislation currently pending in Congress. I believe that Jannuzzo's statements on 60 Minutes were deplorable.

You seem to have a co-dependency going with Glock Inc. that makes you believe that anyone who would question the quality of your work a member of the demographic you seem to despise.

You cannot allocate to me membership within that demographic. I am a customer of your content that found it lacking and plainly stated my objections above. If you consider that an attack, I sincerely apologize because as a member of THR, I seek to follow the guidelines as published. At the same time, I stand by my analytical assessment of the content I consumed within the Gunzone.

Two incidents over a decade old do not have relevance to whether the gentleman in question should feel confident in procuring a new Glock.

You could have offered arguments regarding the "Corporate Character" of Glock that would merit current consideration, but that was absent from both your post and Gunzone articles.


And as for my "authoritative" credentials in this matter, those were established for me by Glock Inc. in Federal District Court in Uniondale, NY in some years ago. I never sought them, but Glock was anxious to keep me from taking the stand and happily stipulated that the facts that I would testify to concerning their product's catastrophic failures and unintentional discharges was true and accurate.

An authoritative source for product safety needs to go beyond simple anecdotal evidence. Anyone could stand up a web site regarding the Ford Explorer, the Boeing 737, or any other product you can think of and cite historical incidents where a specific model at a point in time had discrete safety issues. One could also do the kind of "attack journalism" that 60 Minutes does where sympathetic individuals who have suffered injuries from the product in question describe how Ford, or Boeing or whoever, weren't very nice to them when they reported their problem several years ago.

Should that influence whether I get on a Boeing jet on a business trip today?

Should it influence whether I buy a 2004 Ford Explorer tomorrow?

I contend that information alone is not sufficient to draw conclusions as to whether it is safe to get on that plane or buy that automobile. More compelling objective evidence is required. An authoritative source should expect that its consumers will demand that evidence whether comprehensive, or at least representative.



And speaking of anxious, StressPuppy writes:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Speir,

Please leave me out of this crap!!!!!!! I am no fan of flame wars.

You have stated that I should read something.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I stated nothing of the sort… that was JC2… but you get credit for at least getting my name right. So, congratulations on your purchase, g'luck with it, and I genuinely wish you many years of trouble-free shooting with it.

Now, stop whining and hit the range again for another 100 rounds. If you think this was a flame war, then don't ever venture onto Assault Web or Hard Core Talk.



I find this regrettable and unnecessary. Your comments to this gentleman who simply reviewed your content and came to a similar conclusion regarding its value proposition (or lack thereof) are consistent with adolescent behavior.

You publish content to be consumed.

Individuals consume it and draw their own conclusions.

Within this thread individuals have consumed that content and found its quality to be lacking.

You have been challenged to do better.

You can either rise to the challenge and provide better content OR you can continue to insult those who provide candid feedback regarding its quality and continue down the same path you are on.

I find it useful to have my point of view challenged. It gives me the opportunity to reflect on the basis of that point of view. I can either revise my position (which is a good thing if it needs revising) OR I can revisit the evidence and find that my original position has been confirmed.

In your case, I find that your response to my criticism of your work, and your attitude confirms my evaluation of your content and unfortunately, your character.

I sincerely believe you have something to offer the gun-owning community. You have strength of conviction to take the path of the contrarian. However, you are unwilling to accept candid scrutiny which is unfortunate.

Regardless, I wish you the best Dean, and hope that you have learned something from this encounter...that being, at least one of your critics does not consume "Kool-aid"

:neener:

CZ52'

[Mal H]

StressPuppy has gotten the advice he was seeking in this thread. He made his decision and purchased the pistol of his choice. Any further "discussion" might lead to 'things' getting even more personal than they have already gotten at this point.

Thread closed.