if there was such as thing....


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Kaylee
October 19, 2003, 12:49 AM
as a .308 or powerful-er handgun that didn't have any more felt recoil than say a .45.... would you be interested?

A while back, good ol' Badger Arms was talking about a hypothetical free recoil (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42636&highlight=free+recoil) system for assault rifles. It suddenly occured to me that the same idea might be adapted for something like a T/C Contender or XP-100 role. Added with a brake of some kind.. I can see a handheld -- if bulky -- single shot (maybe even repeater!) rifle-caliber pistol that's a pussycat to handle.

Seems the handgun hunters might well take to it.. whadya think?

-K

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4v50 Gary
October 19, 2003, 01:17 AM
Methinks some South American designed a recoil free handgun that was fully automatic. He offered his design to the US Government in exchange for an immigration visa but they turned him down and so his government (or death squads) got him instead.

Speaking of recoilless guns, the first reference I've found was in General Sherman's memoirs: "...Captain Thistle, agent for the United States for live-oak, Florida, who was noted as the first of the troublesome class of inventors of modern artillery. He was the inventor of a gun that 'did not recoil at all,' or 'if anything it recoiled a little forward." Hydraulics perhaps in the 1830s or 40s? Anybody know how to do a patent search?

C.R.Sam
October 19, 2003, 01:50 AM
Few years ago a friend of mine had a beautiful single shot handgun.
In .50 BMG.
Pussycat to shoot but raised cain with bystanders.

With muzzlebrake, or compensator, they are not polite to any but the shooter.
Without, they are rough on the shooter.

Blow forward has been done, and died.

Hydraulic damped, spring return, recoiling breech would do nicely if a bit bulky.

But...can I get one in a wheelgun ?

Sam

Badger Arms
October 19, 2003, 02:14 AM
Okay, a picture just flashed through my head. How about utilizing the force of the recoil to compress and set a spring much like an open-bolt machinegun presets the bolt with each shot. However, the handgun would fire from the closed position and the entire upper half of the gun would recoil. Once the shot is away, the user must then operate another switch which opens the action energetically and ejects the spent case.

This has yet to be done, Kaylee, unless I am unaware of it. All other recoil systems I know of will return the gun to battery. Well, I can't really say that. I've noted a completely different form of recoil on a 1911 when I fire the last shot. Essentially, this new gun would amplify the effect of semi-automatic pistols with the entire action moving instead of just the slide. This action would store a good ammount of recoil energy in the spring to be released in another impulse when the action opens.

I'm aware of, but haven't examined, a 'recoilless' system where the locked breech and barrel are sent forward prior to the shot. I think it's used on a Trap gun, but the gun eludes me now. This action is similar, but not exactly like, what happens when a large-mass-ratio open bolt gun is fired. Using the M-3 Grease gun as an example, the large bolt accelerates forward and fires the cartridge. The movement of the heavy bolt attenuates the spike in recoil that you get when the gun fires. When the gun is fired for one shot (which is quite do-able with the Grease Gun), the setting of the recoil spring spreads the bolt-mass recoil out over a greater period of time where the peak forces aren't that great.

Problems: Of course to be reliable and versatile, the spring cannot be that strong or else the 'set' will not occur. This would happen with a light load that would fail to send the action completely to the rear. Therefore, some level of 'spiked recoil' would still be necessary for the reliable function of such an arm... or there COULD be a second buffer so that the action would compress a stronger spring after the point at which the action locks. This would further buffer the action against heavy loads and yet still allow a reliable lockup.

So, this gun would fire just like, say, a Magnum Research Lone Eagle pistol. The barrel, bolt, and reciever assembly would travel aproximately 3" compressing a recoil spring and lock to the rear. The user then actuates a release lever, button, or some sort of device which sends the receiver and barrel forward while at the same time ejecting the spent casing from the stationary bolt assembly. Perhaps these are manually actuated like the forward stroke of a pump-action shotgun? One final step would be to release the bolt assembly to close therefore readying the gun for another shot!

I've got a crude idea of the mechanics in my head, but I'd need to draw it and sleep on the idea. I'll conjure up JMB later this winter for some help. ;)

Badger Arms
October 19, 2003, 02:19 AM
OOOOHhhh, and it might make this gun NOT hurt. Say hello to my LITTLE FRIEND. 358 Winchester, no muzzle brake. It's all in the wrist! :what:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=552059

tlhelmer
October 19, 2003, 07:32 AM
Can you say carpal Tunnel:what:

Black Snowman
October 19, 2003, 09:14 AM
What??? NO RECOIL! Where's the fun in that ;)

But ya, I'd be interested in a .308 handgun even if it did recoil. It's on my "eventually" list of wants :)

Hand_Rifle_Guy
October 30, 2003, 03:28 PM
Badger Arms:

You just made a very nice description of a long-recoil action's operating sequence, a la the Remington M-8/81 autoloading rifle. It has a buffer spring to catch the bolt/barrel unit at the end of it's travel and soften the impact, a barrel return spring to reset the barrel and drive extraction/ejection, and a bolt return spring to feed a fresh cartridge, push the bolt forward and lock it.

It works, but in a handgun it might make for a rather bulky/overcomplicated pistol. M-8/81's are fairly heavy for a 22"-barreled rifle. I also think that'd be prohibitively expensive, which is what killed the M-8/81 despite it's forty-year production run. Addtionally, as a Hand Rifle collector, I've discovered that few rifle-caliber handguns stay in production. The market is very limited, which would discourage any innovation in the field by a manufacturer with the resources to develope such a platform.

I'd buy one, though.

Neat pic of the Lone Eagle. But I bet my .358 S.A.S.S. weighs less, and therefore hits harder on the grip end. Pain is the correct word to use. I think the Lone Eagle grip configuration is better for recoil management too, but I've never fired one.

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