Is my understanding wrong?


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mdThanatos
June 5, 2009, 10:11 PM
Hey all,

Hopefully someone can help me out here. I am in a Political Science class for the summer and we were discussing how the CHL bill for college campuses failed to pass here in Texas. Well long story short we got in to talking about the 2nd amendment and what was legal to own. My professor kept saying that you need a gunsmith license and then an additional license to own full auto weapons. Well I said its an FFL and then Class III license(correct me if I am wrong).

My main question is, both my professor and I were stating that with the correct licenses and paperwork and tax stamps paid you could get a full auto AR15. I was having a debate with a classmate who wouldn't let it go about how you couldn't get full auto weapon and I like being right and think that I covered the basics of how it is legal but just want some reassurance.

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P.B.Walsh
June 5, 2009, 10:17 PM
I wish I could help more, but I THINK that your right, but I'm about 5% sure.

lipadj46
June 5, 2009, 10:19 PM
Depends on the state, but yes if your state allows it and as long as it was made and registered before 1986 (for a regular person) it is legal. Then there are the civilian class 3 (or whatever) manufacturers that can own the post 1986 samples.

taliv
June 5, 2009, 10:26 PM
yes, you definitely can own full auto AR15s in TX.

go read the atf.gov website and you will find all the rules and paperwork.

Wes Janson
June 5, 2009, 10:31 PM
A Class 02 Special Occupational Taxpayer can legally manufacture brand-new full-auto weapons, and register them with the BATF (for sale exclusively to law enforcement/military).

A regular individual may purchase any machinegun that was registered with the BATF before 1986. There is no license, permit, or anything else, you're simply buying a $200 tax stamp and having it registered into your name. Having a Federal Firearms License is completely and totally unrelated to purchasing a National Firearms Act registered firearm.

Generally, most full-auto ARs run around $10-15k, depending on a variety of factors (registered lower vs drop-in auto sear vs lightning link, etc).

duckman007
June 5, 2009, 10:40 PM
The stamp cost $200, but you can purchase a full-auto if you're legal.

Send your friend to the AFT website for further clarification.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m1

mdThanatos
June 6, 2009, 12:35 AM
Ok, so I wasn't completely correct but somewhat, thanks for the replies.

Sunray
June 6, 2009, 12:48 AM
A FFL is a Federal dealer's licence. That's not a 'gunsmith's licence' either. You don't need that just to own Class 3 firearms in States that allow them.
Mind you, the AR15 isn't FA or a Class 3 firearm. It's a semi-auto hunting rifle. It takes far more than putting in the parts to make one FA.

PT1911
June 6, 2009, 12:51 AM
isnt the AR-15 the name of the semi-auto M-16?:evil:
It is illegal to convert an AR-15 to full auto, any full auto produced after 1986 (?) is not legally registered in the united states and is thus illegal for a civilian to own... unless you live in MONTANA!!!!! LOL
anyway... there are ways with the proper permits,to own a full auto (class 3) weapon, but I dont think an FFL is required only a class three license and the tax stamp...

Sunray
June 6, 2009, 01:00 AM
"...AR-15...semi-auto M-16..." Yep. It is or was a Colt trademarked name for an internally very different(the inside of the recievers are much smaller. Takes hours in a machine shop.) semi-auto version of the M16. It's a commercial hunting/target rifle.

punkndisorderly
June 6, 2009, 01:00 AM
I may be incorrect, but I beleive that you must also obtain a signature and fingerprints from chief law enforcement officer in your locale (police chief, judge, sheriff, etc). This can be easy or impossible depending on the atttitudes of the powers that be in your area.

An exception to this is if you set up a trust to actually own the firearms.

In addition, you have to find and purchase the firearm before starting any paperwork as the serial number must be had to fill out the paperwork. After purchase, a class 3 dealer maintains posession of firearm until all the hoops are jumped through. The process will take months so it's not a spur of the moment purchase.

When one figures in the price of the weapon and the speed with which they go through ammo, most cannot afford to own, maintain, and shoot one. You can usually purchase 10 semi-auto versions of the same gun for the price of 1 full auto.

stickhauler
June 6, 2009, 01:14 AM
The AR platform firearms made before 1986 that are eligible for sale as a full auto firearm were considered to be M-16's, the designation is different now, yet it still is built on an AR platform. A Class 01 FFL (a dealer) can take possession of a full auto firearm, as far as I know, but the $200.00 Federal tax stamp is still required. A regular person can also own a full auto firearm, after filing the various forms, obtaining the $200.00 tax stamp, and the various background checks, as well as written permission of the Chief local law enforcement officer. And of course, the laws governing transporting the firearm is quite a lot stricter than a normal firearm. And you sure as hell aren't going to be welcome on your local range cutting loose with it.

Quiet
June 6, 2009, 03:05 AM
TX allows civilian ownership of MGs, so you can own a pre-'86 M-16.
Requires a $200 tax stamp and about $10,000-15,000 (price of a pre-'86 M-16).

Remember civilian transferable MGs had to be on the MG registery before May 1986. All MGs made after May 1986 are not transferable to non-licensed persons, they are only transferable to LE/Mil/Gov and FFL/SOT.

taliv
June 6, 2009, 12:24 PM
isnt the AR-15 the name of the semi-auto M-16?

not really

The AR platform firearms made before 1986 that are eligible for sale as a full auto firearm were considered to be M-16's,

no

the "M16" is a specific configuration.

a full-auto AR15 is not an M16 even in the same configuration.

it's honestly not worth getting bent out of shape about, but just so you know... if you tell a collector you have an M16 for sale and you show up with a full-auto conversion that says "AR15" on the side of it, they're probably going to be PO'd

gunsandreligion
June 6, 2009, 12:44 PM
It is illegal to convert an AR-15 to full auto, any full auto produced after 1986 (?) is not legally registered in the united states and is thus illegal for a civilian to own... unless you live in MONTANA!!!!! LOLwhat???

PT1911
June 6, 2009, 07:07 PM
Those are the only Full autos that were registered during the "grace" period. since it has lapsed (1986 I believe) no NEW (or otherwise unregistered) full autos can be owned privately by a citizen.

I left the Montana part free due to what is going on right now with their attempt to produce and regulate Full autos themselves in state without federal intervention.

PT1911
June 6, 2009, 07:15 PM
it's honestly not worth getting bent out of shape about, but just so you know... if you tell a collector you have an M16 for sale and you show up with a full-auto conversion that says "AR15" on the side of it, they're probably going to be PO'd

so... assuming this conversion was not done until after 86, thus the gun was not registered as a class III, wouldnt that also be illegal on top of the being PO'd pard?

JWF III
June 6, 2009, 09:08 PM
I beleive that you must also obtain a signature and fingerprints from chief law enforcement officer in your locale

The CLEO won't give you their fingerprints. You have to give them yours. But it does require their signature on the form for you to get it.

The whole trust thing, I don't know about. Someone else will know better.

Wyman

Quiet
June 7, 2009, 03:06 AM
The new law in Montana does not cover MGs and DDs.
But, it does cover AOW, SBR and SBS.

So, even if you are in Montana, you will still need to get BATFE approval to acquire a MG.

MrYellow
June 7, 2009, 10:51 AM
Sorry to join this thread (and forum) without presenting myself before.
I am an european shooter, and I Actually I have an m16 lower, with the auto sear etc.

According to it serial number, it was made in 1970/1971.
So my question is did an unregistered FA rifle made before may 86 can be sold to a US civilian? What was the registration prior to 86?

JWF III
June 7, 2009, 03:20 PM
unregistered FA rifle made before may 86 can be sold to a US civilian?

Unregistered is the key word there. And the answer is no. It had to be registered before May '86.

It could be an 1800s Maxim, if it wasn't registered prior to the deadline, it is considered a pre-86, non-transferrable, dealer sample.

Wyman

jerkface11
June 7, 2009, 03:31 PM
so... assuming this conversion was not done until after 86, thus the gun was not registered as a class III, wouldnt that also be illegal on top of the being PO'd pard?

Some of the conversion parts ARE the registered part. So you can put them into any gun you own.

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