range limit for the m1 garand?


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FlyinBryan
June 6, 2009, 02:00 AM
what is the max range you could make a center mass shot with a standard m1 garand?

anyone ever heard of mentionable long range hits with the old m1?

farthest confirmed kills?

farthest successful hit on anything?

ive always heard that with an m1, if you could see it, you could shoot it.

not the m1c or m1d, just the plain old girl everyones grandpaw carried in the big one, or korea????????

(like this one)
http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv162/flyinbryan_photos/Picture010.jpg

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sarduy
June 6, 2009, 02:08 AM
you are right on that

ive always heard that with an m1, if you could see it, you could shoot it.

Maverick223
June 6, 2009, 02:24 AM
what is the max range you could make a center mass shot with a standard m1 garand?How much ammo do you have? I'd say a couple miles is doable, if you have the time and the ammo. Wanna give it a try? I'll bring the time and you can bring the ammo. :D
farthest successful hit on anything?I am certain that you could make a confirmed kill of the ground for about 3.5mi., hitting something smaller than the Earth would be difficult though.

I think the Garand is good for about 800yds if the shooter is good enough, but this is just speculation. :)

Sunray
June 6, 2009, 02:27 AM
Records like that don't exist.
"...everyones grandpaw..." No. My Da served in W.W. II. Not with an M1 either.
"...certain that you could make a confirmed kill of the ground for about 3.5mi..." Don't be rediculous.

FlyinBryan
June 6, 2009, 03:11 AM
"...everyones grandpaw..." No. My Da served in W.W. II. Not with an M1 either.


my apologies.

it was really just a figure of speech to describe that the m1 i had in mind was the standard issue variety, not the scoped one.

i was going to say "the m1 that everyone and their dog had during that era", but then i remembered that dogs were denied guns from 1941 to 1946, so that would have been false information too:D

TAB
June 6, 2009, 03:31 AM
if I can see it, I can hit it. in the range thats 3-400 yds.

in combat I'd say 200 max.

alde
June 6, 2009, 11:33 AM
From a rest I can put a clip into a 10" circle at 200 yards using a simple rest with my stone stock Garand. I'm sure I could make somebody very uncomfortable well past that. Maybe 400+ yards.

TeamRush
June 6, 2009, 12:06 PM
With correct aperture rear sight, they are regularly accurate out to 500 or 600 yards.

With the Winchester 'battle sight', I can do good hits at 300+ yards, but the hole is GIANT for any real accuracy.

With Good Optics and a REALLY Good Barrel, you can do the same ranges as a .308 Winchester round (7.62x51mm).
I have one that will do 800 Yards with optics and hand loads that stuns about everyone around...

The 'War years' barrels weren't what I'd call 'Super Accurate' and when you start to reach past 300 or 400 yards, the barrel comes in to play BIG TIME!

Get a good Krieger barrel or similar 'Match Grade' barrel and it will become a long range shooter VERY QUICKLY!

I've heard of shots at over 1,000 yards,
One story in particular of a sniper in Korea placed him making regular hits at 1,200 yards, and some hits at 1,500 yards, although there is no concrete information I could find to confirm that...
Still, I wouldn't doubt it, there were some super accurate National Match grade rifles sent over there to be used by 'Sharp Shooters' (over 76,000 in all).

In all, I like my M-1 Garands, but they are HEAVY and awkward to shoot compared to modern firearms...
Sill, Having your hands full of history always counts for something!!!!

SaxonPig
June 6, 2009, 12:14 PM
I can see the moon...

Maverick223
June 6, 2009, 12:30 PM
I can see the moon...You can hit it, you just need a good scope to see the impacts. :neener:

P.B.Walsh
June 6, 2009, 01:23 PM
I can see the stars....... :neener:

61chalk
June 6, 2009, 02:36 PM
I know the sights go up to 1200 yds.
I think they have competitions with them out to 1000 yds...the 30/06 travels far...Sgt. Hathcock with a bolt 30/06 had a confirmed in Vietnam of over a mile I believe. I just got back from the range an at 540 yds was tagging a 9" iron triangle, open sights, Field Grade CMP. Greek ammo. That was today,an my witness with a spotting scope said when I wasn't hitting it as was darn close...asked him if he knew it was D-Day....."Ya...it is!" I asked if he had ever shot a Garand..."No"...would you like to.."YES!"....he has a M14, but had never shot a Garand...."WOW, this thing has more kick than my M1A."
He asked me about it....think he'll be
going to CMP...couldn't believe you could get them for 495.00 an they shot that good. I have faith that a well sighted in Garand, Knowing your ranges, knowing how to shoot if theres wind, a good shooter with open sights wouldn't have a problem hitting targets up to 1200 yds.

rondog
June 6, 2009, 02:43 PM
If you couldn't hit a man at 1200 yards, you could most likely scare him back into his hole pretty quickly!

MutinousDoug
June 6, 2009, 05:27 PM
I just had my SA Garand out Thursday to see what HXP67 ammo would do at 600yd. There was very little wind (for a change) but I have a hard time seeing the front sight with my presbyopic eyes so I string shots vertically. I leaked two shots into the 6 ring, one high and one low. The 8 shot group was 12" wide by 24" tall. The 10 ring on the 600 yd High Power target is 12" so, with practice, the right conditions and good eyes, the gun is capable of shooting clean. (It's a 2MOA gun at 200yds too.)

ar10
June 6, 2009, 06:27 PM
When I was in boot at MCRD every one had to qualify at 500yds.

gvnwst
June 6, 2009, 07:50 PM
"...certain that you could make a confirmed kill of the ground for about 3.5mi..." Don't be rediculous.
Uhh...i am pretty sure mav meant just random shooting, the .30-06 bullet can be lethal a bit farther than that...and it would be confirmed, the police would find a dead guy killed by a .30 caliber slug, and you just happened to be shooting in that direction...(as he said though, LOTS of ammo:D)

Vern Humphrey
June 6, 2009, 08:01 PM
The standard service rifle match was shot to 600 yards-- at paper targets, from a solid prone position. The Army considered the maximum effective range of the M1 (the range at which the average soldier could be expected to get 50% hits on a man-sized target in combat)to be 500 yards.

Trebor
June 6, 2009, 10:01 PM
I fired a stock CMP Service Grade Garand with LC M2 ball at the 600 yard NRA High Power target at a High Power practice night once. I was slung up tight and in a shooting jacket.

I'm not a particularly good rifle shot by competitive standards. I was able to keep most, but not all, of my shots in the scoring rings at 600 yards.

To be honest, I was actually impressed, as this was a stock GI rifle and stock GI ammo and was shot by me, and I'm not a NRA Master level shooter by any means.

So, yeah, combat hits at 500 or 600 yards would be doable for someone who was a "good shot" and if the target was visible long enough. It might not be a "first round" hit though and the target would be likely to vanish if the first round missed.

ar10
June 6, 2009, 10:48 PM
The Army considered the maximum effective range of the M1 (the range at which the average soldier could be expected to get 50% hits on a man-sized target in combat)to be 500 yards.

But that was the Army. :rolleyes:


Sorry, I just couldn't help it.

sarduy
June 6, 2009, 10:57 PM
i dont want to be standing and a 30-06 bullet flying my way at 2000 yards that's like a 9mm at point blank

tactikel
June 6, 2009, 11:13 PM
A .30-06 will easily kill at 1000 yards; "White Feather" used a Rem 700, Unertl scope, and match ammo, His record kill was actually made with a .50 M2 with his 10x scope mounted, taking single shots.
With GI sights, GI ammo, the .30-06 can hit man sized targets at better than 500 yards, it depends more on you than the firearm. Under combat stress 100 to 200 yards is probably max. range for the average shooter.

bernie
June 6, 2009, 11:43 PM
I have a silhouette gong at 475 yards. It is always enjoyable to get someone who is really no more shooter than shooting the occasional deer to consistantly hit the gong. It does not take a lot of coaching to get that to happen with a service grade M-1 and ammo.

TeamRush
June 7, 2009, 01:46 AM
I know the sights go up to 1200 yds.
I think they have competitions with them out to 1000 yds...the 30/06 travels far...Sgt. Hathcock with a bolt 30/06 had a confirmed in Vietnam of over a mile I believe.

61 Chalk sounds like a Ranger name!

Anyway, This is from Gunny Hathcock's own mouth,
Gunny Hathcock's best CONFIRMED kill was a hair over 1,200 yards, and it was with a .300 Win Mag in a 'Militarized' Winchester Model 70 with a Leatherwood ART 10X optic.

Unconfirmed kills at over 1,500 yards came later, but like I said (and he said),
"That's a "guestmate", since there weren't any reliable range finders back in those days,
And it wasn't like the north Vietnamese would let you measure it off!"

He later made shots at 1,000+ yards with an M-21 (National Match version of the M-14) with 10x Leatherwood ART optic on top.

He's also used Unertl optics and Leupold optics in both Viet Nam & Unnamed "Other Places"....
My guess would be Laos and Cambodia, & maybe Thailand, but who knows with the 'Cloke & Dagger' stuff that was going on back then...
-------------------------------------

Second part,

I don't think there is a 'Boot' that can make reliable shots to 1,200 yards, but the rifle will certainly shoot that far!
Maximum range is like 1,800 yards, but I suspect the actual maximum distance is farther than that, some where around 1.25 to 1.5 miles for terminal ballistics...

Mine has Match grade barrel, 10X optics
(period specific Unertl scope and correct mount)
And it will bang out 24" groups at 1,000 yards all day long from rest,
And with good (modern) optics, you can get the groups down to about 15" with 'Good' ammo...

You will have to go with some bench grade handloads to get tighter groups than that,
And 15" groups at 1,000 yards will qualify you for Marine sniper today!

I'm not saying the CMP M-1's will do that by any means,
Many of the CMP rifles have CRAP for barrels, ill fitting bolts and all kinds of problems with the chambering/chambers,
but with good bolt, match grade barrel, and some other work to the rifle, it's good WAY out there!

If you want to take some of the kick out of yours, turn the gas down!
There are all kinds of aftermarket kits to keep the bolt from smacking the back of the receiver every time you fire!
Personally, I like the stainless steel versions that are made like the updated military versions.
They are TUNABLE for gas passage, and they look stock!
Work great, and are only about $60 or so....

ar10
June 7, 2009, 07:28 AM
I don't think there is a 'Boot' that can make reliable shots to 1,200 yards

Absolutely correct, but look at what we were issued. They certainly were not match grade rifles and definitely not new. We also spent more time cleaning than shooting in boot camp. and using those wonderful steel rods from the muzzle down. At 500yds and hitting the 24" red bull with service grade M1's was pretty damn good.

scythefwd
June 7, 2009, 08:31 AM
Watched my grandpa do a 8 inch group at 400y with what is now my garand. COM it isn't on your average sized joe, but it still hurts to take one in the outside 1/8th of your body, and that is till pumpkin sized at that distance.

peyton
June 7, 2009, 08:33 AM
I have shot 1000 yard matches with iron sight M-1, you had to know how to watch the wind and adjust sights to allow for it. Plus the target has a BIG bullseye so you can see it from that far away. What a hoot!!

KSCCHTrainer
June 7, 2009, 09:12 AM
When I went through Army basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri back in 1961, the M14 was being issued to the field troops, but there weren't enough of them to go around, and all the basic trainees (Boots to you Navy and Marine guys) were issued well worn M1 Garands.

The "Trainfire" concept of popup targets out to 600 meters (may have still been yards then, I don't remember) that dropped when you hit them or the specific time limit had passed was in place and believe me, the 600 meter target was NOT difficult to hit at all if you paid attention to your sight picture & bullet drop during the practice sessions. We never got the chance to shoot at ranges beyond 600 at Leonard Wood, so I never got the chance to shoot any farther than that with the M1. The 30-06 round was (and is) capable of doing lethal damage quite a bit farther out than that.

My father tells of hitting and sinking 55 gallon steel drums at sea out to 1000 yards or more off the fantail of their ship with a 1903 Springfield while they were on their way out to the South Pacific during WW-2. His eyes were quite a bit better than 20-20 though, and even at 97, they are still much better than mine. He's color blind, and I suspect the enhanced contrast he experienced from not being fooled by shifting color patterns of the waves had a lot to do with being able to see those barrels out that far. He certainly was never fooled by the camouflage in use at the time and almost got in trouble once from spotting a camo'd installation that they weren't supposed to be able to see.

Micol W
June 7, 2009, 01:15 PM
In indirect fire with boat tailed rounds it is effective to around 4,000 yards. Wind is a large factor. Not accurate. I'm not aware of any instances where M1s were actually volley fired in action this way. Mostly machine guns used in area denial.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

natman
June 7, 2009, 04:02 PM
The 30-06 cartridge is potentially lethal a lot farther away than one can reliably hit with an iron-sited Garand. Guesses in the 5-600 yard range are credible, much beyond that you can't see a man sized target in the field.

Two miles is 3,520 yards. Please.

benEzra
June 7, 2009, 05:29 PM
"...certain that you could make a confirmed kill of the ground for about 3.5mi..." Don't be rediculous.
Read it closely. He said you could hit the ground at 3.5 miles, which you indeed can (given about 30 degrees elevation of the rifle), since that is the maximum physical range of a .30-06. But to hit an actual target, you're looking at 800 yards or so if the shooter is good enough.

Micol W
June 7, 2009, 09:21 PM
Various cartridges farthest reach. Not necessarily lethal at this point. CEP 10s of yards.

Table II – Range of various cartridges

CALIBER Grains Velocity COEF Yards Miles
.22 LR (SV) 40 1145 .128 1500 .85
.22 LR (HV) 40 1335 .128 1565 .89
.380 ACP 95 970 .08 1089 .62
.45 ACP PISTOL 234 820 .16 1640 .93
.30 CARBINE 111 1970 .179 2200 1.25
.30 BALL M2 152 2800 .40 3500 1.99
.30 BT M1 172 2600 .56 5500 3.12
.30-40 KRAG 220 2000 .34 4050 2.30
.50 AP M2 718 2840 .84 7275 4.13

colt.45
June 7, 2009, 10:56 PM
I'd say they're pretty accurate. Mine is one of the least accurate m-1's I've seen producing four moa groups. Despite this, I recently shot it past 100 yards for the first time. I set up a man sised target at 300 yards wondering if a cold bore hit was possible just by dialing in. Sure enough my buddy on the spotting scope gave me a thumbs up first round of the day, then watched seven more fly into a 16 inch group. we both did that routine a few more times:D best damn day of my life.

In her younger years when she had a hot new barrel and a few less wrinkles she might have been able to do that at 600 yards or more. They're great rifles.

reguards,
Colt T

Ian
June 8, 2009, 09:22 AM
A couple years ago, when I was at a 600 yard range, I was able to put 6 of 8 into a silhouette at that distance using the irons on my tanker M1 and Australian surplus .308.

FLNT4EVR
June 8, 2009, 09:34 AM
I had mine out to the range yesterday and after re sighting the rifle,I put 8 in a 12inch bull at 200yds.I was quite happy with that.

Maverick223
June 8, 2009, 11:32 PM
Read it closely. He said you could hit the ground at 3.5 miles, which you indeed can (given about 30 degrees elevation of the rifle), since that is the maximum physical range of a .30-06. But to hit an actual target, you're looking at 800 yards or so if the shooter is good enough.Thanks Ben, that is exactly what I meant. The terminal range of a .30-06 is roughly 3.5mi. at a 32 degree angle, depending upon dozens of factors. Been away for a while, 'puter needed reformatting. :)

GarandMan94
December 23, 2015, 08:31 AM
Well using iron sights with surplus M2 AP ammo in the prone position using sandbags I have gotten 6 inch groupings at 900 yards (0.551 Miles).
when using an M1D mount with an optic set to X24 magnification and long range match ammo in the prone position using sand bags and spotter support I've hit targets at 2200 Yards (1.25 Miles)
all targets were 30 inch bulls eye splatter burst targets

Vern Humphrey
December 23, 2015, 10:03 AM
When I was in training, and later as a member of a battalion rifle team, we shot the M1 and M14 at 600 yards, 20 rounds slow fire prone. It was common to "clean" the target at that range.

joem1945
December 23, 2015, 10:13 AM
I think I read in one of my military books that the M1 spec is a effective range to 978 yards.

Welding Rod
December 23, 2015, 11:24 AM
Big part of the equation for making the same shot twice is the hand guard fit. If they don't have a tiny bit of fore-aft clearance the shots go all over the place as the barrel warms up.

In my experience a Garand with proper hand guard fit and shooting Greek surplus ammo is about 2 MOA. Hornady Match Garand ammo is very consistent if you want be sure of best results.

Flatbush Harry
December 23, 2015, 12:47 PM
US Army standard = 500 yards, use in prone service rifle matches = 600 yards.

The practical problem is the inherent accuracy of the M1 Garand. Four MOA was the acceptance standard...hence, @ 500 yards, we could expect a ~20" group as acceptable.

Harry

Sunray
December 23, 2015, 12:52 PM
Ya'll notice the date of the OP?

Nature Boy
December 23, 2015, 01:09 PM
According to Wikipedia
the M1 had a maximum effective range of 440 yards (400 m), with the capability of inflicting a casualty with armor-piercing ammunition well beyond 875 yards (800 m).

Devonai
December 23, 2015, 03:12 PM
Ya'll notice the date of the OP?

It's the FNG's fault! :neener:

(p.s. welcome to The High Road GarandMan94!)

chris in va
December 23, 2015, 03:21 PM
June 9, 2009, 12:32 AM

Yeah, nice necro thread.

But anyway I can regularly hit an 8" gong at the range limit of 350 yards, once I dial in the rear sight. Compared to my 5.56 CZ, it really whacks that thing.

lysanderxiii
December 23, 2015, 03:35 PM
M2 Ball will be effective at causing casualties out to at least 4000 yards.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point during the M1's career it was not used to deliver suppressive fire at 1 to 2 klicks, and I also wouln't be surprised if someone was killed by suppressive fire....

Ron James
December 23, 2015, 03:43 PM
I fired the M1 on the 600 yd range at Ft. Lost in the woods in 1959, by golly, even hit the target once or twice.

strambo
December 24, 2015, 10:58 AM
I've hit with mine at 500 (and I'm an Army grunt, don't know what those Jarheads keep bragging about :neener:)

Doesn't ever need to be a theoretical Q with any gun. Decide what size target you want to hit. For a "man" let's say an 18" circle since we are about 18" wide. Shoot your rifle and ammo on a calm day from a solid rest at 300. Measure the group size (5 minimum, 10 better) or shoot a few 5 rd groups to get an average.

Now, you have pretty solid confirmation of what that rifle/ammo can do, so do the math to see what range still keeps all rds in that target size based on the rifle's accuracy potential. If you got 9" group avg at 300, then 600 is your max.

If you miss at 600 with same ammo, it is most likely due to shooter, unstable rest, poor range estimation, bad wind call or any combo of the above.

H&Hhunter
December 24, 2015, 11:28 AM
The 30-06 cartridge is potentially lethal a lot farther away than one can reliably hit with an iron-sited Garand. Guesses in the 5-600 yard range are credible, much beyond that you can't see a man sized target in the field.

Two miles is 3,520 yards. Please.

Are you saying that you can't see a man sized target in the field beyond 600yards or that your sights will completely cover a man sized target beyond 600 yards? I pick out people in the field with the naked eye way beyond 600 yards all the time. In open country more like 3 or 4 miles away.

H&Hhunter
December 24, 2015, 11:36 AM
As far as the old Garand goes. I've hit man sized rocks with one at 1100 yards. Not on the first pull of the trigger but with a few rounds I can usually walk one onto target. In any case you would be headed for cover if you had any sense, if a competent man was shooting at you at that range with an M1.

Reloadron
December 24, 2015, 12:30 PM
Prone position using the sling my best groups were in the 500 yard / meter range that I was comfortable with. The rifle could likely do better but I was comfortable in those ranges.

Ron

GarandMan94
May 31, 2016, 06:15 PM
Ive hit steel silhouette targets center mass at 800 yards with my springfield armory standard issue, with a spotter i can do the same at 1000 yards. At 1100 i get on target with 18/24 shots at 1200 11/24 shots.
For gigles I tried at 1500yds the maximum distance at the range and i hit the target 2/24 shots

Vern Humphrey
May 31, 2016, 06:58 PM
The Garand is not a super accurate rifle -- no military rifle over 50 years old is. That being said, the Garand has, as one writer put it, "the best iron sights ever put on a military rifle."

I'm not at all surprised at a reasonable hit probability at 800 to 1000 yards.

adcoch1
May 31, 2016, 07:24 PM
The Garand is not a super accurate rifle -- no military rifle over 50 years old is. That being said, the Garand has, as one writer put it, "the best iron sights ever put on a military rifle."

I'm not at all surprised at a reasonable hit probability at 800 to 1000 yards.
The 1917 eddystone (p14 Enfield, us military configuration) i used to have would easily hit a ten inch target at 750-800 with greek ammo. I managed a cold bore hit on a 4" target at that range. And my uncle's cmp garand will easily drill a clay pigeon on the hill at 200. Like every time. That's easily 2moa or better. I wouldn't say any military rifle over 50 yrs old isn't Very accurate. In fact all of the 7mm mausers i've shot were better than 2moa guns as well. I think the SHOOTER isn't what he used to be since semi auto has become the norm. I would believe that any good condition m1 should be good to 600 at least. My $0.02.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

Reloadron
May 31, 2016, 07:37 PM
adcoch1 mentions:

The 1917 eddystone (p14 Enfield, us military configuration) i used to have would easily hit a ten inch target at 750-800 with greek ammo. I managed a cold bore hit on a 4" target at that range. And my uncle's cmp garand will easily drill a clay pigeon on the hill at 200. Like every time. That's easily 2moa or better. I wouldn't say any military rifle over 50 yrs old isn't Very accurate. In fact all of the 7mm mausers i've shot were better than 2moa guns as well. I think the SHOOTER isn't what he used to be since semi auto has become the norm. I would believe that any good condition m1 should be good to 600 at least. My $0.02.

The Rifle, .303 Pattern 1914 (or P14) was a British service rifle of the First World War period. A bolt action weapon with an integral 5-round magazine, it was principally contract manufactured by companies in the United States. It served as a sniper rifle and as second line and reserve issue until being declared obsolete in 1947. The P14 was the successor to the P13 Enfield and the predecessor of the U.S. Rifle M1917 Enfield.

The P14 was a .303 Pattern rifle and the US Rifle of 1917 was the M1917. While the rifle is frequently refered to as a P14 I do not think that is correct as a point of trivia. The correct reference should be M1917 Enfield. That is how it is listed in U.S. Infantry Weapons World War II (http://www.amazon.com/U-S-Infantry-Weapons-World-War/dp/0917218671) by Bruce N. Canfield.

Ron

Vern Humphrey
May 31, 2016, 08:56 PM
The 1917 eddystone (p14 Enfield, us military configuration) i used to have would easily hit a ten inch target at 750-800 with greek ammo. I managed a cold bore hit on a 4" target at that range. And my uncle's cmp garand will easily drill a clay pigeon on the hill at 200. Like every time. That's easily 2moa or better. I wouldn't say any military rifle over 50 yrs old isn't Very accurate. In fact all of the 7mm mausers i've shot were better than 2moa guns as well. I think the SHOOTER isn't what he used to be since semi auto has become the norm. I would believe that any good condition m1 should be good to 600 at least. My $0.02.

The M1917 was the first US rifle to have decent aperture sights -- albeit without windage adjustment.

Nature Boy
May 31, 2016, 10:01 PM
Lazarus was only raised from the dead once, however, this thread......

Flatbush Harry
May 31, 2016, 10:35 PM
Let's apply a little logic to the question.

The Army acceptance standard for the M1 Garand was 3-4 MOA. Assume 3.5 MOA for an issue rifle, i.e., approximately 15" at 400 yards. How wide is the average stiff today? How wide was said stiff in the 1940s? Assuming you could knock a human target down at greater than 400 yards, from a good field position or rest, would be somewhat aggressive. That a .30-06 round with a 150gr bullet could kill at 875 yards is less interesting than one's inability to reliably hit a human target at more than 400-440 yards with an issue M1, as specified by the army.

Harry, long-time M1 Garand shooter

PS-BTW, I've done my share of shooting, and unfortunately not great shooting at 600 yards with both M1s and M14s/(more recently my SAI M1A SuperMatch, built in 1978). Skills notwithstanding, the realities of these rifles coupled with human limitations, dictate expectations, regardless of stated expertise.

FH

adcoch1
June 1, 2016, 12:08 AM
adcoch1 mentions:





The P14 was a .303 Pattern rifle and the US Rifle of 1917 was the M1917. While the rifle is frequently refered to as a P14 I do not think that is correct as a point of trivia. The correct reference should be M1917 Enfield. That is how it is listed in U.S. Infantry Weapons World War II (http://www.amazon.com/U-S-Infantry-Weapons-World-War/dp/0917218671) by Bruce N. Canfield.

Ron
Once again i bow to your historical accuracy RON, Thank you for guiding my rant back to accurate terminology. I always just call them a 1917, but you're right, the p14 is a different rifle even though the two share the action design.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

lysanderxiii
June 2, 2016, 08:28 AM
Let's apply a little logic to the question.

The Army acceptance standard for the M1 Garand was 3-4 MOA. Assume 3.5 MOA for an issue rifle, i.e., approximately 15" at 400 yards. How wide is the average stiff today? How wide was said stiff in the 1940s? Assuming you could knock a human target down at greater than 400 yards, from a good field position or rest, would be somewhat aggressive. That a .30-06 round with a 150gr bullet could kill at 875 yards is less interesting than one's inability to reliably hit a human target at more than 400-440 yards with an issue M1, as specified by the army.

Harry, long-time M1 Garand shooter

PS-BTW, I've done my share of shooting, and unfortunately not great shooting at 600 yards with both M1s and M14s/(more recently my SAI M1A SuperMatch, built in 1978). Skills notwithstanding, the realities of these rifles coupled with human limitations, dictate expectations, regardless of stated expertise.

FH
The acceptance criteria for an M1 was with the rear sight windage centered and eight clicks up on the elevation, 5 rounds fired rounds at a target set at a range of 100 yards had to be inside, or cut, the 5 inch aiming circle.

So, just under 5.3 MOA.

dh1633pm
June 2, 2016, 08:51 AM
As poor of a shot as I am, I did a 300 yard match with my Garand at a central New York Gun Club. Mine is a rebuild with new barrel and stock. Came in third. From last. But you know, it was raining, I had never shot the course, and used reloads. Excuses, excuses. But all my shots were on the paper and scored 6 or better for each. It wasn't the rifle that came in near last, it was me. I did enjoy every minute of it.

Sistema1927
June 2, 2016, 12:40 PM
Lazarus was only raised from the dead once, however, this thread......

I was going to say: "We had a thread about this awhile back", but "deja vu all over again".

Vern Humphrey
June 2, 2016, 03:09 PM
The acceptance criteria for an M1 was with the rear sight windage centered and eight clicks up on the elevation, 5 rounds fired rounds at a target set at a range of 100 yards had to be inside, or cut, the 5 inch aiming circle.

So, just under 5.3 MOA.
Not exactly -- the criteria is not pure accuracy, but mostly alignment of sights and point of impact.


And let me point out that the qualification course included 20 shots, slow fire prone at 600 yards.

Onmilo
June 3, 2016, 12:32 AM
The 30-06 cartridge is potentially lethal a lot farther away than one can reliably hit with an iron-sited Garand. Guesses in the 5-600 yard range are credible, much beyond that you can't see a man sized target in the field.

Two miles is 3,520 yards. Please.
I agree this is the maximum effective range of about all combat rifles given the variables that occur on every battlefield.
The difference is a .30/06 will hurt more than a 5.56/5.45 when it gets where it is going.

lysanderxiii
June 3, 2016, 08:27 AM
Not exactly -- the criteria is not pure accuracy, but mostly alignment of sights and point of impact.


And let me point out that the qualification course included 20 shots, slow fire prone at 600 yards.
Those are the only accuracy requirements stated in the specifications governing the production of the M1 Garand Rifle. They were only required to shoot just under 5.3 MOA.

As I recall, when the Army still qualified on the A-course, only 10 rounds were shot at each stage, and there were 5 stages, off-hand, kneeling, sitting, prone rapid and prone slow. Also the V-ring was 20 inches in diameter.

Vern Humphrey
June 3, 2016, 01:22 PM
Those are the only accuracy requirements stated in the specifications governing the production of the M1 Garand Rifle. They were only required to shoot just under 5.3 MOA.

No. They were required to put all shots in a circle just under 5.3 MOA AT A GIVEN SIGHT SETTING.

So a rifle that shot a 5.3 MOA group WITH THAT SIGHT SETTING would meet the standard IF the group was centered.

A rifle that would shoot a 1/2 MOA group OUTSIDE the circle with that sight setting would fail.

lysanderxiii
June 3, 2016, 04:24 PM
No. They were required to put all shots in a circle just under 5.3 MOA AT A GIVEN SIGHT SETTING.

So a rifle that shot a 5.3 MOA group WITH THAT SIGHT SETTING would meet the standard IF the group was centered.

A rifle that would shoot a 1/2 MOA group OUTSIDE the circle with that sight setting would fail.
The maximum allowable spread is 5.3 MOA.

If the group (whatever size, but smaller than 5.3 inches) is outside the the sighting area, adjustments to the rifle are required, but the grouping is acceptable....

So, a rifle that is only capable of 5.3 MOA is acceptable, provided the sights are set up correctly.

Of course, anything better would also be acceptable.

3.8 Targeting. — The assembled rifle shall require no greater range of sight adjustment in targeting than is authorized in 4.8.

3.9 Accuracy.-The accuracy of each rifle shall be such that five successive shots fired at 100 yards shall fall on the target so as to group within or be cut by the size circle specified in 4.9.
.
.
.
4.8 Targeting firing tests.

4.8.1 At a range of 100 yards and using a fixed or muzzle- and elbow rest, each rifle of a lot shall be fired one series of five rounds of caliber .30 ball ammunition, of known accuracy, at a 5-inch bull’s eye or a “T" target.

4.8.1.1 With the rear sight set at zero windage, the aperture elevated eight clicks from the lowest position and the sights aligned at 6 o’clock on the target, all shots shall come within or cut the edge of the bull’s eye (or a centrally located 5-inch circle if a “T” target is used) or it shall be possible
to move the group within the bull’s eye (or circle) with not more than six clicks of adjustment, either up or down, right or left, or both.

4.8.1.2 In the event that more than three clicks of windage adjustment is required, a correction must be made by shifting the front sight, but the movement shall not cause overhanging on either side.

4.9 Accuracy firing test.
...The accuracy shall be such as to meet the corresponding requirements of the above paragraphs.
Paragraph 3.8 is a different requirement that paragraph 3.9, however, the two tests are done concurrently.

Para. 3.8 requires the sights to be set up so that less that 3 clicks windage and 6 clicks elevation are required to zero a new rifle at 100 yards (no wind), para. 3.9 requires all shots to be inside or cut a 5 inch circle, (that is, to have less than a 5.3 inch extreme spread).

Vern Humphrey
June 3, 2016, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by lysanderxiii:
The acceptance criteria for an M1 was with the rear sight windage centered and eight clicks up on the elevation, 5 rounds fired rounds at a target set at a range of 100 yards had to be inside, or cut, the 5 inch aiming circle.

4.8.1.1 With the rear sight set at zero windage, the aperture elevated eight clicks from the lowest position and the sights aligned at 6 o’clock on the target, all shots shall come within or cut the edge of the bull’s eye (or a centrally located 5-inch circle if a “T” target is used) or it shall be possible to move the group within the bull’s eye (or circle) with not more than six clicks of adjustment, either up or down, right or left, or both.



This standard is NOT a pure accuracy standard -- the standard relates to the correspondence of the sights to the point of impact.

Again, a rifle that shot a 1/2" group, but a foot to the left with the specified sight setting would FAIL. A rifle that centered a 5" group would pass.

Flatbush Harry
June 3, 2016, 06:47 PM
Vern,

At the risk of noting the obvious, were your statement true, an inspector would take an Allen wrench, loosen the front sight screw, tap the front sight in the direction of the off-center POI to center the 1/2" group with the windage set at mechanical zero, tighten the front sight screw and keep the 1/2 MOA rifle for himself.

This adjustment would be part of the GI issued the rifle sighting in...and that's why John Garand made the front sight as well as the rear sight adjustable...so the windage could be set with the rear sight at mechanical zero. That's the way I final zero all my M1s.

Jus' saying',

Harry

giggitygiggity
June 3, 2016, 06:48 PM
Man-sized targets at 600 yards with a stock M1 is reasonable. USMC shoots 500 yards with M16/M4 rifles at man-sized silhouettes. With proper technique and a good shooting position, it is easy to score hits at that range. The furthest I've shot my service grade CMP M1 has been 300 yards and I can keep them all on the man-sized target. I have full confidence (based on its MOA and sights) that 600 yard hits are reasonable. In combat conditions (unsteady shooting positions, moving targets, distractions), I'd reduce the expectancy of hit to 200-300 yards.

Flatbush Harry
June 3, 2016, 06:55 PM
Lysander,

I'll defer to you as I have never read the specific acceptance standards. I will note that I have 5 M1s, each obtained from the CMP so that they clearly were once accepted by the US Army, and each needed a different number of clicks up from bottomed out to center on a standard military 100 yard target using a 6 o'clock hold. Each is capable of 4 MOA or better.

Cheers,

Harry

Vern Humphrey
June 3, 2016, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Flatbush Harry:
At the risk of noting the obvious, were your statement true, an inspector would take an Allen wrench, loosen the front sight screw, tap the front sight in the direction of the off-center POI to center the 1/2" group with the windage set at mechanical zero, tighten the front sight screw and keep the 1/2 MOA rifle for himself.


The standards DO require him to take an Allen wrench and loosen the front screw and tap the front sight:

4.8.1.2 In the event that more than three clicks of windage adjustment is required, a correction must be made by shifting the front sight, but the movement shall not cause overhanging on either side.

Except, of course, the inspectors were not allowed to keep ANY rifles for themselves.

Hangingrock
June 3, 2016, 07:16 PM
After reading all the replies, I think that some of you are great story tellers and leave it at that.

Flatbush Harry
June 3, 2016, 07:20 PM
Vern's comment in response to my post is absolutely correct. I regret not reading an above post thet stated that front sight must be adjusted. This is the trouble with a quick peek and a drive-by post.

Apologies to all.

Harry

CoalTrain49
June 4, 2016, 10:13 AM
I read an account of soldiers who were chasing Pancho Villa back into Mexico making 600 yd shots with an 03. Of course that was back in the day where there was a great deal of marksmanship training in the Army and no semi-auto rifles. I don't see why a well trained, practiced shooter couldn't effectively hit a man sized target at 600 yds. using an M1 with a good bore. Several shooters were making hits with an M1 at 600 yds the first day at the range in boot camp. It wasn't me however. The targets were scored from the target bunker and the DI said it happened so I think it actually happened.

Robert
June 4, 2016, 10:53 AM
This thread is 7 years old and the OP has not signed in in almost 3 years. Lets call it asked, answered and done.

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