Orientation of Butler Creek (or similar) lens caps on scopes ... I don't get it!


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1858
June 6, 2009, 04:34 AM
I see a number of photos on line of "tactical" type rifles and scopes, and the majority have Butler Creek or similar flip-open lens caps. What I don't get is why so many have them orientated to open to the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position? I always mount mine so that they open to the 12 o'clock position. Who started this trend and why? I would think that it'd reduce your peripheral vision to have the cap open at the 3 or 9 o'clock position.

Here's what I'm talking about ... an objective lens cap open at the 3 o'clock position.

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/optics/other/scope_cap.jpg

:)

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Deus Machina
June 6, 2009, 04:53 AM
I can think of a few things...

At 12, a good wind could blow a cap without any retention down.

At 3 (if you shoot with your right eye) you won't loose any vision--it's out of the way and blocked by your scope.

At 9 (again, right eye) it would block the vision of your left eye if you shoot with both open (like I tend to) and give a partial effect like closing that eye.

stubbicatt
June 6, 2009, 12:02 PM
Dunno. But the Hensholdt 4x scope for my G3 clone has rubber lens cups that perform the same way.

For the rear cap, I can say if you get it to open to occlude vision from your non shooting eye, it could assist in both eye open shooting (maybe) and it won't foul your baseball cap visor either. Unfortuately, on my bolt rifles the clearances are such that the lens cap interferes with the bolt if it doesn't open "up."

ArmedBear
June 6, 2009, 12:41 PM
12 o'clock blocks some of my peripheral vision (both eyes if I look above the rifle, left eye if I'm looking through the scope with my right). 9 obviously would.

3-o'clock makes sense to me (for a rightie anyway). I'll have to try it.

psyopspec
June 6, 2009, 12:48 PM
During Basic Rifle Marksmanship, recruits in the Army are taught to scan for targets with both eyes open, eye slightly over the rear sight. Spot target, drop down into your cheek weld, one shot one kill. So, keep the top clear of obstruction to scan for targets according to this school of thought. Keep the left clear because you're right handed and you want to have both eyes open with maximum field of view. That leaves the right side.

1858
June 6, 2009, 03:50 PM
Hmmm ... some interesting points ... so there's a method to the madness. I'm now starting to see the logic of a 3 o'clock open position (on the objective lens cap) for a right handed shooter. Like ArmedBear ... I'll have to try this. I don't like the idea of having my left eye blocked by the ocular lens cap so those are staying put (12 o'clock) on my bolt guns at least. I could try a 3 o'clock position on my ARs though since there's no clearance required for a bolt handle.

Maybe Butler Creek needs a logo that has rotational symmetry! :D

Thanks for the comments.

:)

P.B.Walsh
June 6, 2009, 03:54 PM
Well, I have mine in the 9 o'clock position because any other way and I can't take my bolt out of my 700, because the lugs get in the way (I know, I know, I should just rotate it). I'm a right-handed shooter BTW.

THE MACHINIST
June 6, 2009, 04:04 PM
i dont have any on mine so 2 less things to worry about.

1858
June 6, 2009, 04:07 PM
i dont have any on mine so 2 less things to worry about.

I'm not worried ... but I WOULD be without protective lens caps. :what: I put Butler Creek (or Leupold on the Mark 4s) lens caps on all of my optics. That gives me "2 less things to worry about" ... the ocular and objective lenses!! :D

JDGray
June 6, 2009, 04:10 PM
With an AO scope, using my sunshade, mine is anywhere from 10 to 3:D

My non AOs are at 12;)

rcmodel
June 6, 2009, 04:14 PM
I am running 6 sets of them at 12:00 oclock.

Why?
Just puts the opening tabs right by my normal thumb positions where I can reach them easily without changing my normal firing grip.

They pop open on top of the scope and I haven't noticed them being in the way at all.

rc

SquirrelNuts
June 6, 2009, 04:16 PM
I have one set of them, and mine are at 12:00.

1858
June 6, 2009, 04:42 PM
I am running 6 sets of them at 12:00 oclock. Why?
Just puts the opening tabs right by my normal thumb positions where I can reach them easily without changing my normal firing grip.... They pop open on top of the scope and I haven't noticed them being in the way at all.

rc, that's always been my thinking too ... but I'm open to changing what I do if there's a good reason. All of the photos on the internet had me wondering if there was "a good reason" and I realized that I installed my lens caps without a lot of thought. I notice with the objective lens cap at the 3 o'clock open position, one of the tabs is in virtually the same position (7 o'clock) as it is at the 12 o'clock open position.

I don't want to make a huge deal out of this but it's something that I'd been wondering about. I knew a post would provide some interesting feedback so I appreciate that.

:)

rcmodel
June 6, 2009, 04:49 PM
Well the rear covers on all of mine have a single red lever latch.

You either put it at 12 o'clock, or you let go of the rifle to open it.

I like the ability to leave them closed while hunting, and open them as the rifle comes up to the shoulder for a fast shot oppertunity.

I really think it's the best place for them, but I ain't very TackyCool I guess.

rc

Horsemany
June 6, 2009, 05:01 PM
The main reason tacticool rifles are mounted at 9 or 3 is simple. You do not have to raise your head to make quick vertical adjustments of the scope. At 12oclock the open cap blocks the turret from the shooting position. It also blocks a quick peek downrange over the top of the scope from prone position.

All mine are at 12 oclock. The sideways caps remind me of a glock being shot sideways like a gang member.

1858
June 6, 2009, 05:01 PM
Well the rear covers on all of mine have a single red lever latch.

I'm sure that's standard and it's certainly the case for mine too. I suppose the ocular lens cap could be rotated to open at the 9 o'clock position blocking the left eye for a right handed shooter. The red lever latch could be operated with the right thumb without changing the grip but I don't think that approach appeals to me.

It's not so much a case of being "tacticool" ... more a case of what works best for each individual. Whatever I end up with, at least I would have put some thought into it rather than just doing what everyone else does. :)

:)

1858
June 6, 2009, 05:05 PM
The main reason tacticool rifles are mounted at 9 or 3 is simple. You do not have to raise your head to make quick vertical adjustments of the scope. At 12oclock the open cap blocks the turret from the shooting position. It also blocks a quick peek downrange over the top of the scope from prone position.

Obviously you're talking about the ocular lens cap since the objective lens cap doesn't block the elevation or windage adjustment in any position. You could argue that a 3 o'clock open position on the ocular lens cap would block the windage adjustment.

:)

Horsemany
June 6, 2009, 05:28 PM
Obviously you're talking about the ocular lens cap since the objective lens cap doesn't block the elevation or windage adjustment in any position. You could argue that a 3 o'clock open position on the ocular lens cap would block the windage adjustment.

Yes only the ocular. More adjusting is done with the elevation knob than windage. You'll even see some scopes that have been modified for long range use that ONLY have a tall elevation cap but not windage.

Mags
June 6, 2009, 05:43 PM
I dig the 6 O clock position and let gravity do its thing.

Maverick223
June 6, 2009, 06:11 PM
I think I may try out the 6 o'clock position (for the front) when the new scope arrives, but I may remove it to add a sunshade, the rear will likely go up. Keep in mind that if you were a real operator you wouldn't need covers...because it would never get removed from the case...except to show it off. :neener:

Uncle Mike
June 6, 2009, 06:11 PM
WOW...

I put all of mine at 6 o'clock....


hehehe

Maverick223
June 6, 2009, 06:13 PM
I put all of mine at 6 o'clock....How does that work? Seems like the one on the ocular bell would get in the way @ 6.

rcmodel
June 6, 2009, 06:14 PM
I like mine on a variable scope that changes the oclock of the cover every time you change the power setting. Yes, I have one like that!

That covers all the bases on which is right and which is wrong.

rc

psyopspec
June 6, 2009, 07:19 PM
There really is no right or wrong. Just because you see it on the internet makes it neither "tacticool," nor right, nor wrong. It's a way, not the way.

AK103K
June 6, 2009, 07:43 PM
If I cant get them to lay flat at 6 o'clock, then I set them at around 4 o'clock, so they law down towards or against the side of the rifle, out of the way, even if I have to push them there.

P.B.Walsh
June 6, 2009, 08:05 PM
What's the difference in the red and yellow tabs?????

Maverick223
June 6, 2009, 09:03 PM
What's the difference in the red and yellow tabs?The color. :D

Oh, and forgot to mention...that is one purdy rifle you pictured there, 1858! :)

Uncle Mike
June 6, 2009, 09:11 PM
There really is no right or wrong. Just because you see it on the internet makes it neither "tacticool," nor right, nor wrong. It's a way, not the way.


Quote:
I put all of mine at 6 o'clock....

How does that work? Seems like the one on the ocular bell would get in the way @ 6.

:neener: I don't even use them.... I use the rubber bikini scope covers, ONLY if it's inclement out.
I'll keep them on for transport, ingress and egress. :D

joeg26er
June 7, 2009, 12:08 AM
mine are set to flip diagonally downward in the rear to avoid hitting my buis

TeamRush
June 7, 2009, 12:46 AM
I see a number of photos on line of "tactical" type rifles and scopes, and the majority have Butler Creek or similar flip-open lens caps. What I don't get is why so many have them orientated to open to the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position? I always mount mine so that they open to the 12 o'clock position. Who started this trend and why? I would think that it'd reduce your peripheral vision to have the cap open at the 3 or 9 o'clock position.

I can give you a number of reasons why the 'Objective' cap might not be at the 12:00 position...
1. There might not be room for the joint on the cap/mount.
That hinge is 1/2" or better and a good optics mount is ALWAYS as close to the barrel as you can get away with.

2. It might be a optic with parallax adjustment on the Objective, this would mean the cover might be anywhere in the sweep of the parallax adjustment when you are setting the range.

3. Someone might be a right handed or left handed shooter, and have the cap flip to his dominant side, It won't interfere with his dominant eye there.

4. They might be real tactical shooters and not want the cap to 'Flash' the sun when they open it.
Side ways swing is a definite way to keep the cover from flashing, or from showing movement when opened compared to standing up and waving a flag when it's opened.

5. They might be real tactical shooters and not be aware there is a 'Mall Cop' or 'Taci-Cool' way of doing things, and the real tactical shooting classes don't stress such things as throwing up signals when you open your scope covers.

-------------------------------------

As for the Ocular end of the optics...
1. Triggers or hinges often don't fit between optics and bolt, so the ocular cover needs to be 'Offset'.

2. If you had ever spent 12 to 18 hours a day
(remember, it's not just taking shots, most 'Snipers' are there to gain tactical and operational information,
They RARELY fire a shot since doing so would compromise any tactical or operational information they gathered.

That's why they are called STA teams, Sniping & Target Acquisition (STA), not just 'Snipers' or 'Assassins'.
STA teams are valuable intelligence collection assets, and firing a shot would compromise the intelligence by letting the enemy know they had been observed...

SO!
If you had spent 12 to 18 hours stairing through an optic at the enemy trying to collect intel, you would be REALLY GREATFUL the scope cap was blocking your ressive eye so you could keep both eyes open...
(Why do you think that most Spotters/Observers wear an eye patch or bandanna over the recessive eye while observing?)
---------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I think the spring loaded versions are a bad thing for the snipers/Intel gathering teams because they can give away the position in a heart beat if used incorrectly!

Nothing like giving a flag for the enemy spotters to see go up!
And some of our guys are actually 'Uneducated' enough to put stickers and such inside the caps!

If you just want to shoot people where things are always moving, leave that to the platoon designated marksman or 'Sharpshooter'...
Real snipers and intel teams are doing a creep into the middle of the enemy AO and sending home information about his new 'Friends'...

Squad or Platoon designated marksman isn't likely to have his hands or feet stepped on by enemy movement... with the enemy still not knowing he and his spotter are within a hundred miles....

psyopspec
June 7, 2009, 02:21 AM
(Why do you think that most Spotters/Observers wear an eye patch or bandanna over the recessive eye while observing?)

I'm coming up on a decade of service in the Army attached to elements the size of teams all the way up to BCTs in a variety of combat arms branches. I know they don't teach this method at Benning, and I've never seen it employed by the assets I've been attached to. Maybe, just maybe at night to preserve night vision in one eye, but even that's highly unlikely.

You describe a few other interesting tactics in your posts here and in the thread RE flat top M4s, but they sure as heck aren't ones employed in the US military.

Maverick223
June 8, 2009, 11:21 PM
some of our guys are actually 'Uneducated' enough to put stickers and such inside the caps!True, everyone knows that you need to paint a yellow smiley face on the outside upside down so you can see it when flipped up. :)

P.B.Walsh
June 8, 2009, 11:25 PM
Yea, I love that picture! :)

TeamRush
June 9, 2009, 12:05 AM
Maybe it's the 19 years I've been out of the military...

Or the differences between "Then" equipment and "Now" equipment...

BUT!
Until you have laid on the ground for 18 hours staring through a spotting or rifle scope, you REALLY can't appreciate being able to have BOTH eyes open,
Instead of squinting into a 60 power spotting scope, trying to keep one eye closed all day so you can focus on the 'Objective'...

Optics are MUCH better than we used in the 80's early '90's!
-------------------------------------------------

I don't find a 'Flat Top M-4' thread in the last 5 pages, so I don't know what you are referencing.
Link?

Or would it be the discussion about the M16A2 being obsolete where the comic book readers can't keep their "facts" straight?
Don't seem to know the difference between M16, M16A1, M16A2, CAR, M4 or M16A4...

Interesting they refer to 'Flat Top' A2 and 'M4' when they are talking about CAR,... Stuff like that...
But they are ready to jump down anyone's throat when they think you misspelled some word or misspoke...
No manners what so ever!

Anyway,
Since I was an armorer when all those changes were happening, I'm pretty well versed in these things,
Like when the guy jumped on me about launching rifle grenades from an M16 (pre 203 days, actual rifle grenades), stuff like that the 'Internet Experts' don't see to know...

If they would just DISCUSS instead of melting down,
They might learn something they didn't know!
(and make friends along the way!)

I guess manners and respect are out the window with the internet, and with the 'New Generation' we can't see to 'Educate' on any subject!

Maverick223
June 9, 2009, 12:10 AM
It brightens my day too. :) And...as you can see from the below...the proper orientation is 12:00.
http://www.neptunuslex.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/14snipe.jpg

P.B.Walsh
June 9, 2009, 12:11 AM
You can edjucate me all day on firearms til' your hearts content (I'm a "new generation"). :)

TeamRush
June 9, 2009, 12:14 AM
True, everyone knows that you need to paint a yellow smiley face on the outside upside down so you can see it when flipped up.

Only an IDIOT would do that in a combat zone!

An actual SNIPER/counter sniper wouldn't do that...
You are just as dead if someone BEHIND you sees your 'Smily Face' when it flips up as you would be if the guy in front of you see your smiley face when it moves and flashes...

The picture you are referring to was sent to me also,
But the guy that sent it to me was saying 'This Idiot Doesn't Have Long To Live."

I guess if he was a 'Designated Marksman' or 'Sharp Shooter' with an entire company or two backing him up, he might feel it's OK to flash crap like that since they don't have to blend in with the dirt, leaves, water, rocks or what ever they are encountering in the field,

But a REAL SNIPER/COUNTER SNIPER that his life depends on blending in and not moving would NEVER do something that stupid and live very long!

And take a look at where that dipstick has his optics rings located on the optics!
Not much for repeatability is he!

Just my take on the picture you are referring to.

P.B.Walsh
June 9, 2009, 12:20 AM
I didn't even notice the optics rings, until you pointed them out. :)

Maverick223
June 9, 2009, 12:29 AM
I don't know of any snipers that use a M14, so I feel pretty sure that he is a DM, not a sniper. Also note the lack of ghillie suit, rifle camo, et cetera. The rings cannot be moved back further(with his particular mount) so that is the only option for his particular scope (assuming it has relatively short eye relief). :)

stubbicatt
June 9, 2009, 12:29 AM
Gees TeamRush. I don't know much, but when I look at his rifle, he has the scope to proper eye relief, as the ocular lens appears to be just above the rear sight aperture, but the rings are mounted as far back on that rail as he can get them, as the rail itself is not part of the receiver. With the setup he has, I don't see any other place for him to put those rings and hold this scope.

How else would he do it?

Maverick223
June 9, 2009, 12:31 AM
Dang Stubs we're good...same time and all. ;)

TeamRush
June 9, 2009, 12:47 AM
PSYOPSPEC...
So just HOW do you keep the caps at '12:00' with the older Unertl & Lyman scopes that had range/parallax adjustment on the objective bell?

Do you adjust the the caps before or after you twist on the objective bell for parallax adjustment?

How do you orient those caps when you are under a camo blanket, camo netting, or sniper veil?
12:00 put a decisive 'Lump' in your camo, and the objective is to AVOID any feature that stands out...

PLUS,
You would have to hold the camo/veil up so the cap could even open, and that is more movement I sure wouldn't want!
I won't even do that turkey hunting because ANY movement and turkeys are GONE!
(I'm assuming that counter snipers on the other side are as smart as turkeys...)

How do you have 'Peripheral Vision' when you are under a camo net or veil or in some tunnel dug out hide?
We didn't have the ability to see around corners or see though dirt/rocks,
Is there something new since I sunk down in the jungle floor with the fire ants & leaches?

How do you keep those caps at 12:00 when your bolt won't pass under the Occular cap with the hinge at 12:00 like the old Winchester model 70 leftover rifles from Viet Nam we had when I started doing this?

Do the guys still write the bullet drop in the caps?
We used to spray paint them flat OD green, then use a black 'Sharpie' to record bullet drop at range...
Since you didn't always get a .308 and there weren't any standardized rifles when I started this...

When I started, my 'Long Range Marksman' training was at Quantico, Va.,
There was no 'Sniper School', it was a 'Long Range Marksman' course, then you found your butt in jungle recon...

When I started in the ARMY, the 'Special Weapons' training started at Ft. Brag since there wasn't a 1,000 yard rifle range at Fort Benning then...

The M-24 was tested and revised by my same unit, and the Ft. Benning range and sniper school was laid out and developed while I was 'In The Field'...
Didn't get to partake in that particular summer fun in Ft. Benning, I had other things to do...
------------------------------------------------------------

Know why the US Army uses the M-24 instead of a M-40 Like the Marines do?

Do you know why the M-24 has an HS precision stock instead of the much better McMillan stock that the Marines and Canadians use?

Do you know why the M-24 & M-40 have HAMMER FORGED barrels that are finished with button rifling, instead of a common drilled/draw rifled barrel?

Do you know why the M-24 and M-40 have 5R rifling like the Russian rifles do?

Do you know why military snipers are REQUIRED to carry a Dime at all times, even though they are not supposed to carry any kind of currency into combat?

If you can answer these, or give me explanations why things have changed so it's not used anymore, we can talk...

1858
June 9, 2009, 12:49 AM
I agree with Mav and stubbicatt, that particular soldier is making the best of what he has. If he happened to have a scout style scope with long eye relief he would have mounted it differently. OK ... maybe he won't win an F-Class match like that but I bet he can drop a few OBLs at 300 yards.

Oh, and forgot to mention...that is one purdy rifle you pictured there, 1858!

Hmmm ... I wonder what rifle that is ... it was just some random picture I found on the web! ;)

:)

TeamRush
June 9, 2009, 01:06 AM
I don't know of any snipers that use a M14,

Snipers don't.
The Accurized and optics equipped M-14 is called an M-21.
M-21 isn't the most ACCURATE 'Sniper' rifle,
But is is capable of rapid semi-auto fire and can accept large capacity magazines (something a 'Sniper' has no need for and just gets in the way).

This would be an M-21 (or variant) in the hands of a 'Dilbert' that didn't get the correct mount for that particular variant.

...so I feel pretty sure that he is a DM, not a sniper.

Pretty safe assumption, he could also be a Private Contractor working for one of the companies over there.

Also note the lack of ghillie suit, rifle camo, et cetera.

Again, leading me to believe he's a 'Dilbert' with a rifle and not a trained 'Sniper'.

The rings cannot be moved back further(with his particular mount) so that is the only option for his particular scope (assuming it has relatively short eye relief).

It's entirely the WRONG mount for optics...
He has the optics mounted to the TAC RAIL, or 'Scout' rail which has nothing to do with and isn't solidly mounted to the action/barrel.

What/Where he should have the mount is from the back of the receiver (There is a built in notch to secure the back of the mount on M-21 and variants)
And he has the WRONG RINGS for this application.

Even a slightly trained and equipped MARINE would know this, that's why I think he's a Dilbert or a Private contractor that laid hands on an M-21.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Gees TeamRush.
I don't know much, but when I look at his rifle, he has the scope to proper eye relief, as the ocular lens appears to be just above the rear sight aperture,

How can you tell he has 'Proper Eye Relief'?

He's not holding a cheek weld, and by holding proper cheek weld is the ONLY way to determine eye relief...

He's looking off angled to his left, not even facing the optics, so I don't see how you can assess proper eye relief...

but the rings are mounted as far back on that rail as he can get them, as the rail itself is not part of the receiver.

My point EXACTLY...
He has scope mounted to a TAC RAIL or 'Scout' rail, not the receiver...

There IS a cantilevered optics mount for that particular tach rail, but it's not being used even though it ships with the tach rail...

AND,
That tac rail isn't supposed to be used with wooden stocks...
You can't secure it to the action solidly with a wooden stock.

Dilbert or PC set up at best here...

With the setup he has, I don't see any other place for him to put those rings and hold this scope.

The point was, RINGS ARE NOT holding the optic...
The optic is swinging around unsupported rearwards of the turrets!
Optics are mounted on a TAC RAIL, not optics mounts,
And the TAC RAIL isn't supposed to be used with wood stocks!

Makes for a pretty unsteady mount that can't be good for repeatability!

He has made an effort to raise his cheek weld (or soften recoil on his face since he can't get a proper cheek weld!) by taping a rag to the stock....
(I've done that myself! Sand in a sock, or a wadded up sock makes for a MUCH better cheek weld when you can't otherwise get ANY cheek weld!)

psyopspec
June 9, 2009, 01:16 AM
So just HOW do you keep the caps at '12:00' with the older Unertl & Lyman scopes that had range/parallax adjustment on the objective bell?

Can't say. AFAIK, there's not even an NSN for either of those two items in the supply system.

As I said in the other thread (the A2 one), it seems you've spent some time in uniform, but your information is a little outdated, not to mention unsourced.

1858
June 9, 2009, 01:16 AM
TeamRush, there are probably few people in the world who know for sure the actual circumstances as shown in the photo. Since none of us know for sure, why not give the guy a break and assume that he's making the best of what he has under those particular conditions? Maybe it's not ideal, but perhaps he didn't have a choice.

:)

TeamRush
June 9, 2009, 01:21 AM
Didn't say he wasn't making the 'Best' of what he has,
Said he has the WRONG hardware for that particular set up...

If it's an active duty troop that is knocking down badguys,
MORE POWER TO HIM IF HE'S USING A SLING SHOT & DIRTY BABY DIAPERS!

If it's one of those Private contractors that shouldn't be there in the first place,
OR,
It's a picture of a troop in training around here, before deployment,
SHAME ON HIS TO&E MAN, ARMORER AND COMMANDING OFFICER!

It isn't like Uncle Sam isn't providing the BEST of everything for them, but some dummy in the chain of command needs to pull his head out of his 'Contractual Vaccual' and get with the program!
Our guys deserve better than this, EVEN IN TRAINING!

TeamRush
June 9, 2009, 01:41 AM
Can't say. AFAIK, there's not even an NSN for either of those two items in the supply system.

As I said in the other thread (the A2 one), it seems you've spent some time in uniform, but your information is a little outdated, not to mention unsourced.

EDIT...
Just for arguments sake, I punched in Unertl Scope into Google and came up with this site first thing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_rifle

Is that 'Source' enough for you or am I still an 'Idiot'?...


---------------------------------------------------

Want sources, ask anybody that held a scoped rifle in the Marines before the M-40 was developed.
10x Unertl or Lyman target scopes up until the M-40 adopted the Unertl 10x for the M-40.

I'm sure SOMEONE will remember those old Unertl optics...
I can't be the ONLY old fart on the forum!

I think the Marine Corps Museum has one of Gunny Hathcocks M-21 rifles with Unertl optics on it still on display... I'm sure that source is 'Verifiable'...

The annoying habit of the ocular lens unscrewing while you are trying to focus and letting the nitrogen gas out of the Unertal scopes probably isn't documented either,
but it happened A LOT,
And once it happened, the optics would fog up in a heartbeat!

I'm sure the fact that IRON BASED paint on the Unertl reticle cross hairs would RUST when the optic collected moisture isn't wildly known by 'Comic Book Readers',
And might not be 'Sourcable' or 'Verifiable',
but the guys that used them in the field sure found that out!

Would something like the Patton Museum be enough 'Source Verification' for you...
They are on-line and you tour the equipment and exhibits virtually.

Would Carlos Hathcock's history, both written by him and others will verify the Unertle optics he favored,
Although the actual sniping kill record was held by an ARMY serve man using Lyman and Weaver optics...

Before M-40, there were LOTS of optics used,
Same with rifles,
Mostly target rifles or hunting rifles with off the shelf optics...
Or on 'NATIONAL MATCH' stroked M-14 rifles with 'Side Plate' optics mounts...

I'm sure if you are working where you say you are, you can find out pretty quick about the side plate M-14 optics mounts shooting loose on an almost daily basis!
The biggest reason why the Marines and Army didn't adopt the M-14/M-21 as a 'Sniper' rifle...
Optics that wouldn't stay attached/zeroed and barrels that they couldn't 'Free Float'...

I even CROSS THREADED the side plate optics mounts, and they simply WOULD NOT stay attached!
(Cross Thread-- Hillbilly 'Thread Locker'!)

Now we use a DIFFERENT (finer) THREAD and with thread locker, you can't BANG that mount lose with a hammer!
----------------------------------------------

What I'm having a problem with is someone that claims to be training at Ft. Benning sniper school and other places DOESN'T KNOW the sniper history in DETAIL!

One thing they drive into you is the HISTORY of snipers and sniper rifles, optics,
their strong points and weaknesses so you can improve the rifles as the sniping systems evolve!
----------------------------------------------

As for the A2 thread ( I kind of though maybe you had the wrong name for that thread...)

I just Googled 'M-16', and I found a Wikipedia site that is about correct...
Even WIKIPEDIA has it better and straighter than those guys!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

take a QUICK LOOK at the pictures of the M-16 they show, and you can EASILY SEE the difference between the M-16, M-16A1, M-16A2, CAR, M-4, and M16A4!

Reference the 'Bump' on the side of the upper,
the rear sight, and all of the rest of the changes I spoke of that are visible or written about...

You KNOW those guys are off in left field when Wikipedia has things better than they do!

Maverick223
June 9, 2009, 02:25 AM
why not give the guy a break and assume that he's making the best of what he has under those particular conditionsLets do...and get back to the original discussion. The purpose of the photo was (as I believe was the intention of the original author) simply to poke fun, not to incite a political discussion or a pissing match, which this is quickly turning into. :uhoh:

Hmmm ... I wonder what rifle that is ... it was just some random picture I found on the web!
The most bestest of the random pictures on the interweb! :D ...and no. 6 on the Military Channel countdown of the World's best sniper rifles (which I think is a bit unfounded as it hasn't seen combat/military or LEO use other than testing). :)

psyopspec
June 9, 2009, 12:16 PM
Is that 'Source' enough for you or am I still an 'Idiot'?...

No one's resorted to name calling, dude.

All I said was that your information seems a little outdated. The fact that you reference museums and wikipedia confirms that.

Reid73
June 9, 2009, 12:32 PM
I'm not a big fan of Butler Creek type (flip-up) scope caps. Too clumsy, too easily lost.

WC145
June 9, 2009, 01:31 PM
On my patrol rifle I have them set up to flip out to 3:00. This allows me to shoot with both eyes open and an unobstructed view over the top. It is easy to open them with my left thumb.

BTW, everybody knows that real shooters use this smiley face in their lens cover and they put it on the inside so it can only be seen from in front of the gun when it's open.:evil:

http://www.gagswag.com/designs/best/thumbnails/tnsmile-fr.jpg

Uncle Mike
June 9, 2009, 11:22 PM
Know why the US Army uses the M-24 instead of a M-40 Like the Marines do?

Do you know why the M-24 has an HS precision stock instead of the much better McMillan stock that the Marines and Canadians use?

Do you know why the M-24 & M-40 have HAMMER FORGED barrels that are finished with button rifling, instead of a common drilled/draw rifled barrel?

Do you know why the M-24 and M-40 have 5R rifling like the Russian rifles do?

Do you know why military snipers are REQUIRED to carry a Dime at all times, even though they are not supposed to carry any kind of currency into combat?



Please... enlighten us.... I for one, would like to know these things!

Sounds pretty interesting...:D

Maverick223
June 9, 2009, 11:24 PM
Do you know why military snipers are REQUIRED to carry a Dime at all times, even though they are not supposed to carry any kind of currency into combat?Phone Calls? :D

TeamRush
June 10, 2009, 03:24 AM
I was hoping the 'Internet Experts' could answer a few of these since several claim to have Special Forces training and work with Special Forces and military Operators every day...

Think I'll hold out for a while, just to see if anyone really has the credentials they claim, or it's all 'Interweb' fantasies...
It's all common knowledge stuff if you were in the military in a COMBAT role...
Or have more than 10 minutes around snipers, Rangers, or other 'Operators'.

Uncle Mike
June 10, 2009, 09:16 AM
hehehe.... right you are, let them stew a bit, then tell us of these annotates.

:D

Zach S
June 10, 2009, 09:19 AM
Rush, no offense dude, but this isnt arfcom...

Uncle Mike
June 10, 2009, 09:31 AM
arfcom...

what is this?

Art Eatman
June 10, 2009, 10:15 AM
"what is this?"

This is closed for off-topic wandering is what this is. :)

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