MK11 Sniper Rifle


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LoneRider
June 6, 2009, 04:45 PM
I recently just finished the books Silent Men and am currently reading HOGs in the Shadows. I know a MK11 is a 7.62mm DMR that replaced(?) the SAM-R or at least was in service at the same time as the SAM-R. I wonder if it or something similar will replace the M40A3 in the USMC? And what the differences are if any between the MK.11 and the M110 rifles?

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P.B.Walsh
June 6, 2009, 04:49 PM
I belive the Mk 11 is a M14 variant and the M-110 is an M16 variant. I don't think that they will replace the M40A3 (or at least I hope they don't), their more for a DM role.

Hope this helps. :)

LoneRider
June 6, 2009, 05:03 PM
Actually the MK.11 is a Stoner SR-25 rifle. I know that conclusively from both written and verbal sources but I was wondering if anyone knew if there were any differences between it and the Army M110.

I'm not certain they'll replace the M40A3 either but the book Trigger Men (not Silent Men as I accidentally entered it in the OP) states that most sniper teams are preferring highly accurate and higher capacity semi-automatic rifles especially in urban engagements.

jpwilly
June 6, 2009, 06:43 PM
On 28 September 2005 Knight's Armament Co. (KAC) won the XM110 SASS contract. They did it with a variant of the KAC MK11 MOD 0/SR-25 7.62mm sniper rifle designated as "SR-XM110". The competition had come down to two finalists: the KAC SR-XM110 and the Remington MPD (Military Products Division)/DPMS Panther Arms. The AR-10(T) , which carries a 20-inch, medium-weight target barrel, was ArmaLite’s Semi-Automatic Sniper System (SASS) candidate in the Army’s XM110 sniper rifle competition. The KAC MK11 MOD0 Navy package is the now famous SR25 specially manufactured by Knight's Armamnet for the Navy Seals.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/mk11.htm

They are all pretty much the same. 7.62x51mm

The MK11:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_Mk11_Sniper_Rifle_lg.jpg

The M110:
http://www.product-reviews.net/wp-content/userimages/2007/11/800px-xm110-sass-us-army.jpg

The SR25:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/USMC_SR-25_SAMR.jpg/800px-USMC_SR-25_SAMR.jpg

TeamRush
June 6, 2009, 08:04 PM
Actually, there are a number of small differences between several versions of the AR-10 (What later became known as the SR-25 and other versions.

This rolls across my desk at work, and trying to keep up with the subtle differences is maddening sometimes!
Ordering and supplying the correct replacment parts to the correct units can be maddening!

Some to the differences are things like type of magazine, design of firing pin, forged vs. extruded upper, trigger group (Stoner design vs. 'Match' type), ect.

Right now, the Army & Air Force are putting the M-110 and SR-25 into full scale field 'Trials'.

The Marines and Navy are dealing with several choices, Including some 'Old School' pressure to use updated and revised versions of the M-14 along with the AR-10 style rifles.

SpeedAKL
June 6, 2009, 09:30 PM
The Mk.11 is a variant of the Knights Armament SR-25, a 7.62/.308 AR-type rifle. The original Mk.11 Mod 0 was designed for Naval Special Warfare (aka the SEALs), and the Mk.11 is now used by the USMC as well. Civilians can order the entire weapons system or the system minus the suppressor.

The Army's M110 is basically identical save for a different rail system on the forearm and a slightly different suppressor design.

The USMC's SAM/R is an accurized AR-type rifle in 5.56mm NATO built by the armorers at Quantico. It uses a 20-in stainless Kreiger match barrel, KAC rails, and a Leupold Mk.4 scope. Some other rifles in the Corps are also called SAM/Rs but are simply M16s with ACOGs and a KAC match trigger.

The Army's SDM-R is pretty similar, using a 1:8 twist Douglas stainless 20-in barrel, KAC match trigger, Daniel Defense rails, and typically an ACOG.

The Mk.12 SPR is used by the SEALs and increasingly by Army SF units. It is a 5.56mm AR-type rifle using an 18-inch 1:7 match barrel fitted with an OPS muzzle brake. It typically is made of Colt, Armalite, or Diemaco receivers and fitted with either a PRI, KAC, or ARMS forearm and an adjustable telestock. Optics used include the Leupold Mk.4 in the Army and the Nightforce NXS in the Navy.

Kinda confusing, huh?

And then there are the M14-based marksman rifles:

The USMC uses the M14 DMR, basically an M14 with a match-grade 22-inch Krieger or Rock Creek barrel and a McMillan M2A fiberglass stock.

The Green Machine is upgrading the M14 DMR to the M39 Enhanced Marksman Rifle, essentially an improved M14 DMR with the EBR stock from....

...the Mk.14 EBR, what you were probably confusing with the Mk.11. It is an M14 in a modular Enhanced Battle Rifle stock produced by Sage International. Parts from Springfield and Smith Enterprises are used in the rifle. Apparently Mk.14s are running around in both 22-in and 18-in CQB versions.

Of course, you also have the M14-based M21 and its newer sibling the M25, long popular sniper/marksman rifles with USSOCOM units, either found in traditional fiberglass McMillan M1A stocks or in stocks like the EBR or the Troy MCS.

LoneRider
June 6, 2009, 11:08 PM
I know the SAM-R is basically an accurized M16A3/A4 sporting a variety of telescopic sights and utilized by the USMC in a DMR role and as a spotter's weapon for sniper teams.

I've heard that the USMC ordered several MK.11 rifles shortly after SOCOM ordered them to complement (or replace? I've heard both) the SAM-R and M-14 sniper rifles.

Before posting this thread I knew that the USMC had another semiautomatic sniper/DM rifle other than the M-14 in 7.52. I knew it was an SR-25 variant and I wasn't quite sure if the MK11 is in as widespread use in conventional USMC sniper (conventional meaning non MSOB/Force or Battalion Recon guys). Can anyone answer that?

LoneRider
June 6, 2009, 11:12 PM
I know the SAM-R is basically an accurized M16A3/A4 sporting a variety of telescopic sights and utilized by the USMC in a DMR role and as a spotter's weapon for sniper teams.

I've heard that the USMC ordered several MK.11 rifles shortly after SOCOM ordered them to complement (or replace? I've heard both) the SAM-R and M-14 sniper rifles.

Before posting this thread I knew that the USMC had another semiautomatic sniper/DM rifle other than the M-14 in 7.52. I knew it was an SR-25 variant and I wasn't quite sure if the MK11 is in as widespread use in conventional USMC sniper (conventional meaning non MSOB/Force or Battalion Recon guys). Can anyone answer that?

Dimis
June 7, 2009, 01:05 AM
the SAM as stated above is the 5.56 DM rifle for spotters/Designated Marksmen
the MK-11 was a US Navy SASS entry that has sean some use with Seals
the M110 is a slightly different variation of the MK11 for the armies new SASS program

the previous designation for the 7.62 model semi-auto was the M21 which was a M14 variant
i personaly dont see the SASS replacing the M40 or the M24 as the SASS is lacking in distance (according to those that have used it in interviews from various forms of media) the advantage of the SASS is in special operation environments such as urban fighting where a shot may be needed at 500 with rapid follow up shots also for use on transport (i.e. trucks choppers)
also in close quarters if supplied with a mini red dot and cant mount you can use the same rifle for CQB rolls if needed

Silverado6x6
June 7, 2009, 03:33 AM
Navy Seals used this on the recent Somali pirates situation.

P.B.Walsh
June 7, 2009, 04:03 AM
Cool, but SEALs could use .22lr and STILL be the shiz!!!!!

LoneRider
June 7, 2009, 07:08 PM
Cool, but SEALs could use .22lr and STILL be the shiz!!!!!

Lord knows I agree with you. But I've heard that (source: an issue of Soldier of Fortune from 2002) the Spetsnaz use silenced 22lr rifles for close range (read: Police hostage rescue).

Back on topic does anyone know if the MK.11 ever became widely issued as a USMC DMR or did the M14s stay at that role.

taliv
June 7, 2009, 07:15 PM
lonerider, yes. visit this board http://longrangeinternational.com/forum/index.php?sid=2f23caf426ae58b0313abc56d6cda8e5 which is run by a bunch of marine scout/snipers. they have written quite a bit about using it in combat in iraq. they seem quite fond of it

LoneRider
July 2, 2009, 02:42 PM
The book Trigger Men by Hans Halberstadt included a few USMC snipers that gave ringing endorsements to the MK.11 in Iraq's urban environment. They liked the firepower that the Mk.11 provides as well as it's accuracy and the fact that it resembles an ordinary M-16 to the casual observer so snipers don't stand out as much.

I now know, from an old high school buddy who worked as an armorer before getting out of the USMC (approx. 2006), that the SAM-R rifles were only for East Coast Marines and Pendelton/Kaneohe based Marine Corps Designated Marksmen had to make due with M16A4s. Is there any truth to this?

H2O MAN
July 2, 2009, 04:03 PM
From another forum:

"Actually the M110 thus far has proved dismal at best.

All M110s that have been fielded to my sniper teams have failed and gone down.
All have to go back to KAC because of these dramatic failures.
We had to do a 1 for 1 replacement and lost all of our M24's which was the saddest day in our teams history.
Now we can't get them back and we have no sniper rifles.

The M110 is nice in theory but makes no sense when put into operation.
The only nice part about it is that you get a suppressor to come with it.

It's requires a high level of maintenance, encourages snipers to take multiple shots,
jams after twenty rounds with the suppressor and is super expensive to fix."







Navy Seals used this on the recent Somali pirates situation.

Do you have anything that will substantiate this claim?? Proof??

Owen
July 2, 2009, 04:58 PM
The M110 is definitely having some teething problems, mainly due to issues with the trigger.

The main difference betwwen the MK11 Mod2 and the M110 is a slightly different buttstock. AFAIK, the MK11 Mod0 rifles are currently being rebuilt as Mod2s as they come in for overhaul.

taliv
July 2, 2009, 05:23 PM
what forum is that from, h20? please don't say smith enterprises' forum

Jeremy2171
July 2, 2009, 05:59 PM
M40A3 is soon to be upgraded to M40A5 specs (threaded for suppressor)

The SAM-R is now obsolete and should be gone from most USMC Armories.

Mk-11 replaced the SAM-R in small numbers...no longer procured and will use until worn out

Mk-12 is now "it" to be the standard DMR for Infantry Bns

M14 DMR in use with MP/EOD units not Infantry units.

EMR is in the works (Enhanced Marksman Rifle)

H2O MAN
July 2, 2009, 07:08 PM
taliv what forum is that from, h20? please don't say smith enterprises' forum

:what: smith enterprise has a forum?

No, I found that over on Snipers Hide.


Jeremy2171

M14 DMR in use with MP/EOD units not Infantry units.

EMR is in the works (Enhanced Marksman Rifle)

Modernized and enhanced M14 variants that are currently in service:

TACOM M14 EBR RI
US Marine M39EMR
M21A5/Crazy Horse (this rifle out shot the SR25/M110)
MK14 Mod 0 SEI (18")
CRANE MK14 Mod 0 & Mod 1 (18")

Maverick223
July 2, 2009, 08:22 PM
please don't say smith enterprises' forumNow why would you suspect that of an upstanding member such as H2Oman? :neener: It was the Springfield forum. :p

LoneRider
July 2, 2009, 11:18 PM
M40A3 is soon to be upgraded to M40A5 specs (threaded for suppressor)

The SAM-R is now obsolete and should be gone from most USMC Armories.

Mk-11 replaced the SAM-R in small numbers...no longer procured and will use until worn out

Mk-12 is now "it" to be the standard DMR for Infantry Bns

M14 DMR in use with MP/EOD units not Infantry units.

EMR is in the works (Enhanced Marksman Rifle)

So the EMR will replace or supplant the MK-12s Marines now use?

I gather, then, that the SAM-R was only a stopgap to fill the need for DMR until other systems were fielded?

I'd figure the MK-11 would've been the way to go for DMRs, after all it's got an inherently longer range and more stopping power with the 7.62x51mm round and it's got commonality of ammunition with the M40A3 for SSP on its side too. Any idea why they discontinued purchase?

Any particular reason why the M14 DMR is only fielded to EOD and MP as opposed to infantry? I'd guess it's because most infantry units have loads of 5.56 in stock, so a 5.56 DMR might be more advantageous for their marksmen to have. (Maybe that might be the answer to my MK.11 question).

H2O MAN
July 2, 2009, 11:24 PM
There seems to be a little confusion here when it comes to the M14... maybe these will help.


TACOM RI M14 EBR - - - AFG 2009

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/1fastgxr/Sageaction44.jpg



US Marine M39EMR - - - AFG 2009

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/1fastgxr/Sageaction42.jpg

stoney1666
July 3, 2009, 08:32 PM
What kind of rifle did Marcus have in "Lone Survivor"?

gvnwst
July 3, 2009, 09:01 PM
From another forum:

"Actually the M110 thus far has proved dismal at best.

All M110s that have been fielded to my sniper teams have failed and gone down.
All have to go back to KAC because of these dramatic failures.
We had to do a 1 for 1 replacement and lost all of our M24's which was the saddest day in our teams history.
Now we can't get them back and we have no sniper rifles.

The M110 is nice in theory but makes no sense when put into operation.
The only nice part about it is that you get a suppressor to come with it.

It's requires a high level of maintenance, encourages snipers to take multiple shots,
jams after twenty rounds with the suppressor and is super expensive to fix."
This makes sense of what a Sabre Defense employee told me, they are workin on their own version of the M110, to contract to the army...becasuse the M110 was failing in combat.

LoneRider
July 4, 2009, 12:07 AM
What kind of rifle did Marcus have in "Lone Survivor"?

IAW the book in question a MK.12 Mod. 0.

HorseSoldier
July 4, 2009, 12:44 AM
The Mk.12 SPR is used by the SEALs and increasingly by Army SF units. It is a 5.56mm AR-type rifle using an 18-inch 1:7 match barrel fitted with an OPS muzzle brake. It typically is made of Colt, Armalite, or Diemaco receivers and fitted with either a PRI, KAC, or ARMS forearm and an adjustable telestock. Optics used include the Leupold Mk.4 in the Army and the Nightforce NXS in the Navy.

Somewhat dated information -- Army SF got SPRs in quantity several years ago.

Lowers were also built using old M16A1s lowers. At my last unit we had at least a couple that were built on old H&R lowers.

LoneRider
July 4, 2009, 02:02 AM
We've got a couple M110s in my unit, our sniper section is rather fond of the weapon (or at least the two snipers that have the weapon issued to them have said to me).

As for the SPR, I've never seen one. I've seen the SDM-R once (modified M16 DMR) and now all our marksmen carry the M14.

blackops
July 4, 2009, 02:05 AM
The M110 isn't replacing anything, it's just a better option for close quarters with multiple targets. No semi-auto will ever replace a bolt sniper weapon system. A lot of guys try to say the semis are getting just as accurate and to a point I believe they have come along way, but its simple physics, a bolt is going to be more stable thus giving a more consistent sturdy action. Iron Brigade is trying to replace the M40 with the XM3 which (in my opinion) won't happen. Maybe a better night application if at all anything, but they don't even assemble the weapon there because Heart takes care of that. Anyways the M40 is going to be around a while. If you have a chance to talk to any real military snipers a lot of them will tell you the same thing.

LoneRider
July 4, 2009, 02:12 AM
I can't quite see bolt guns being entirely replaced by semis either. But in urban environments most snipers in my unit would prefer their semi-automatic rifles for better firepower against the scenario of multiple targets. I guess that Private News Network, even if a sniper said it, isn't entirely accurate. Said PNN stated that the M24 was gonna be replaced by the M110. I figured upgraded maybe, but not replaced by a semi, especially in Afghanistan.

More than a few AARs from snipers have echoed similar sentiments. Having read several books by former snipers (namely HOGs in the Shadows by Milo S. Afong and Ronin by Mike Tucker) semi-auto sniper rifles are simply preferred in urban environments.

And, blackops, I agree with you on the M40 being around for a while. Someone a few posts back explicitly stated that an A5 variant is due to be fielded.

Kind of Blued
July 4, 2009, 05:28 AM
No sense in getting rid of the bolt-guns, but I'm glad soem of our boys are getting these semi-auto weapons. The nature of urban combat, and an utter lack of rhyme or reason from the enemy leaves the guy with the bolt gun wanting, I'd imagine.

LoneRider
July 4, 2009, 05:36 AM
Supplanting the bolt guns with a semi-auto that is virtually indistinguishable from the other rifles in the patrol definitely helps. A friend of mine said snipers used to carry their M40s on their backs and patrol with their M16s to and from the hides.

My reading of the book Ronin - A Scout Sniper Platoon in Iraq by Mike Tucker actually chronicles a supremely idiotic idea by the chain of command to try and take the snipers' SAMRs, M16s, and M4s and telling them to do their missions and room clearings with the M40s. Thankfully that idea was vetoed by a much more practical chain of command.

HorseSoldier
July 4, 2009, 05:50 PM
I can't quite see bolt guns being entirely replaced by semis either.

The talk before I ETS'ed was that USASOC was going to bump all bolt guns up to 300 Win Mag and only field gas guns in 7.62x51, but that idea did not seem to be going over really well at the end-user level. As others have said, a semi-auto precision rifle is good for some roles, a bolt gun for others. Keeping both in the golf bag isn't a bad thing.

taliv
July 4, 2009, 06:04 PM
is accuracy the only advantage of a bolt over semi auto? or is someone claiming some other advantage?

(I can think of a few, but none that make up for ROF to me... not that I'm a sniper or anything)

and if it is the only advantage, then what is the accuracy requirement?

jpwilly
July 4, 2009, 06:05 PM
^^^ different missions need different tools. The AR is not the end all be all neither is a M14 or bolt action rifle all can fill a specific mission very well. I believe a mixed environment despite logistical complexity is the answer. What it appears they are still looking for is a single platform answer despite the obvious answer = there's no such thing.

Maverick223
July 4, 2009, 11:42 PM
I can think of a few, but none that make up for ROF to me...Depending upon the situation...I can see where the additional accuracy, the ability to easily police brass, the simplicity of operation, the lesser noise of he operating mechanism, the decreased movement (of the weapon during firing) could be useful for the scout sniper, however I am not one, so I can't say for sure. I can certainly see why they would want to bump up to "greater than 7.62x51" for these bolt guns, because I see the x51 as being a DMR caliber due to the practical range limitations, I think that .300WM would make a pretty good choice as it has a greater practical range without the additional recoil that would require a muzzle brake (.338LM, .50BMG, et al), and thereby be less effective for concealment. :)

LoneRider
July 5, 2009, 02:27 AM
The talk before I ETS'ed was that USASOC was going to bump all bolt guns up to 300 Win Mag and only field gas guns in 7.62x51, but that idea did not seem to be going over really well at the end-user level. As others have said, a semi-auto precision rifle is good for some roles, a bolt gun for others. Keeping both in the golf bag isn't a bad thing.

Lord knows I agree with you about the golf bag concept. I'm no sniper, as the disclaimer, but as a huge gun enthusiast I can see the logic. From the snipers I've spoken with, most would agree with you.

At least for urban sniping a lot of them prefer the semi-automatic weapons for added firepower and precision. And according to Hans Halberstadt's Trigger Men (our senior snipers in the unit agree with this assessment) was that in Iraq a vast majority of sniper kills have been made using M16s or semi-automatic weapons.

That being said I would say the inherent accuracy of bolt action rifles, especially ones chambered in .300 Mag would be ideal for moutain terrain (a friend of mine who hunts in the mountains of Wyoming swears by that caliber (he uses a .300 Mag in the Remington 700 long action to hunt pronghorn) and again many of the snipers from my unit, some of whom have at least one Afghanistan tour, say a .300 or .338 would be ideal in that terrain).

What it appears they are still looking for is a single platform answer despite the obvious answer = there's no such thing.

Lord knows I agree with you. I figure the bean counters are trying to get our snipers and marksmen to make do with a 'one size fits all gun' in the name of 'budget', but failing to realize your obvious logic. Now how to balance both budget and a variety of different sniper weapons systems in the arsenal isn't really my lane.

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